From: les@jmdl.com (onlyJMDL Digest) To: onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Subject: onlyJMDL Digest V2004 #9 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/onlyjoni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com Unsubscribe: mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe onlyJMDL Digest Tuesday, January 13 2004 Volume 2004 : Number 009 ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- John Guerin [frasere@intergate.ca] Re: John Guerin, 100% JC [Randy Remote ] Finding the '1' (was: John Guerin) [chuck eisenhardt ] Re: Finding the '1' (was: John Guerin) [Catherine McKay ] Re: Finding the '1' (was: John Guerin) [Randy Remote ] RE: Finding the "1" (was: John Guerin) [] Today's Library Links: January 13 [ljirvin@jmdl.com] re: guitar tunings ["Bill Bubb" ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 07:54:43 -0800 From: frasere@intergate.ca Subject: John Guerin From today's Vancouver Sun: Drummer was a founding member of the L.A. Express As a musician, producer and arranger, he worked with a number of leading figures in jazz and pop music. John Guerin, a drummer who was best known as a founding member of the L.A. Express and for his contributions to an innovative Joni Mitchell recording, has died. He was 64. Guerin, with a broad resume in jazz and pop, died Monday of heart failure at West Hills Hospital in West Hills, Calif. He had been battling a cold that became pneumonia but continued to perform as late as Dec. 30, when he accompanied singer Steve Tyrell at the new Catalina Bar and Grill in Hollywood. He entered the hospital the next day. As a musician, producer and arranger, Guerin played with a number of the leading figures in jazz and pop music in his four-decade career. In the world of jazz that list included Thelonious Monk, George Shearing, Ella Fitzgerald and Roger Kellaway. Among pop or rock figures, besides Mitchell, Guerin played with Frank Sinatra, Frank Zappa, The Byrds, Lou Rawls and Linda Ronstadt. In 1975, Guerin was a founding member of the L.A. Express, a jazz fusion band composed of four studio musicians. Led by saxophonist Tom Scott, the top- flight roster also included guitarist Robben Ford and bassist Max Bennett. After hearing them play at a small jazz club in North Hollywood, Mitchell invited them into the studio when she was recording her Court and Spark album. They later went on tour with her as the opening act. Guerin went on to collaborate with Mitchell on the title track of The Hissing of Summer Lawns. "I'm very proud of that album," Guerin told Down Beat magazine. "It's a portrait in sound of the American dream, marriage and suburbia, in a myriad of shapes and forms. The album has touched a lot of people where the didn't want to be touched. Joni has a way of articulating self-exploration in a very heartfelt way." Guerin was born in Hawaii but grew up in the San Diego area. He was self- taught on the drums, learning by playing along with Count Basie recordings. By his early 20's, he was playing professionally with major names including clarinetist Buddy De Franco. He played with pianist Shearing in the mid-60's and was off and running in an eclectic career that included work on film scores, notably Clint Eastwood's biography of Charlie Parker, Bird, and the recent Diane Keaton/Jack Nicholson film, Something's Gotta Give. Guerin is survived by his wife, Michelle Palombi Guerin, of Chatsworth Calif; a son, Scott, of Los Angeles; a sister, Victoria Shoemaker, of Oakland, Calif., and two grandchildren. Another son, Shaun, died last summer. Best regards, Stephen in Vancouver ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 12:49:34 -0800 From: Randy Remote Subject: Re: John Guerin, 100% JC "Lama, Jim L'Hommedieu" wrote: > I think "1" was deliberate too. (Extra points for using the word > "deliberate".) > > If I remember my JMDL history, "the one of the chord" is the same thing as > saying "the root of the chord". (Mister Lahm?) Yes, they are the same thing, that's why I think she was talking about the "one" in terms of tempo-she is too concise to say the same thing twice in the same sentence-plus Guerin was a drummer. > I think it implies you're > looking at the intervals within a chord. You can identify the root of the chord without neccesarily being aware of the intervals. The root of a Cmaj9b5 would be C. Considering the complexity of some of Joni's chords, finding the root might be difficult, even debatable! Again, she may have been talking in metaphor. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 15:59:24 -0500 (GMT-05:00) From: chuck eisenhardt Subject: Finding the '1' (was: John Guerin) Lama is correct to tie the phrase 'finding the 1' to music theory, at least in the popular lexicon. And it's true that musicians will refer to the tones and intervals in the diatonic (whole tone, or do-re-mi) scale by their numbers. Classical types will refer to the '1' as the 'tonic', and pop or jazz musicians will refer to a chord based on the tonic as the '1' chord in a given song. However, there's another very important '1' to consider in a musical sense, and that's the first beat in a measure. Sufficently complex time signatures found in jazz and even 'serious' music can leave the 1 less than obvious. Try finding the '1' in John Mclaughlin's 11/4 'Follow Your Heart . Even in simple time signatures a jazz drummer may leave the '1' unaccented or even unplayed entirely. Sometimes the '1' is intentionally ambigous; the most brilliant example I can think of here is 'I'm Free' from Tommy. I invariably lock into the offbeat (the 'and') as the downbeat, and then when the verse resolves out of the drum roll there appears to be an extra beat in the measure. This was entirely intended from the get-go. Since the tonic '1' is usually patently obvious, and since it's Guerin, I believe Joni is refering to the metrical '1' or the downbeat. Chucke Chucke ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 14:29:51 -0800 From: Scott Price Subject: Re: Finding the '1' (was: John Guerin) At 03:59 PM 1/12/2004 -0500, chuck eisenhardt wrote: >there's another very important '1' to consider in a musical sense, >and that's the first beat in a measure. Sufficently complex time >signatures found in jazz and even 'serious' music can leave the 1 >less than obvious. >Since the tonic '1' is usually patently obvious, and since it's Guerin, >I believe Joni is refering to the metrical '1' or the downbeat. Agreed...the "one" she refers to is the first beat of the measure, but seeing as how Joni is no stranger to metaphor I'll also toss in that I believe she was thanking him not only for his musical guidance, but personal contentment as well. For years she had been told her chords were weird and her music didn't fit accepted structures. She would go in the studio and tell session people to play the lines she hummed and sang for them and they would scratch their heads, asking what the chord was, what the root was, and (likely) where the "one" was. When Joni hooked up with Tom Scott, John Guerin, et. al., it opened up a new world for her as she now had musicians who weren't so deeply rooted in tradition, musicians who were open and adventurous and who could understand what she was trying to accomplish. Once the gate opened, she found Jaco, Wayne, Herbie, and many other "jazz" musicians who were and still are wonderful collaborators. Proceeding the times she had suffered tremendous emotional blows during the "Blue" and "For The Roses" periods, she found the love and support she needed coming from John Guerin. Consider too that this is about the time she began getting into "alternate" and eastern theories of spirituality as she tried to find the right path. Her affair with Guerin doesn't seem to be very thoroughly chronicled but I'm guessing she really craved a steady and nurturing monogamous relationship in which her partner deeply understood her musical and her personal aspirations. The fact that to date there have been few if any "bad blood" or "sour grapes" references between the two of them implies that the relationship was mutually rewarding. The liner notes crediting Guerin with helping her find the root and the one, while referring to musical terms, are like so much Joni prose open to various interpretations. Scott ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 19:13:56 -0500 (EST) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: Finding the '1' (was: John Guerin) --- chuck eisenhardt wrote: > Lama is correct to tie the phrase 'finding the 1' to > music theory, at > least in the popular lexicon. And it's true that > musicians will refer to > the tones and intervals in the diatonic (whole tone, > or do-re-mi) > scale by their numbers. Classical types will refer > to the '1' as the 'tonic', > and pop or jazz musicians will refer to a chord > based on the tonic as the '1' > chord in a given song. If you're numbering chords by whether they're tonic or dominant or whatever, don't you normally use roman numerals... which would make it "I" after all. I always see chords referred to as I, IV, V and so on when people are using that system. Maybe it's different between classical and jazz? Catherine, who never even noticed this stuff until it was mentioned here, but then again, my eyesight never was all that good. ===== Catherine Toronto - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- We all live so close to that line, and so far from satisfaction ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 22:09:15 -0300 From: "Wally Kairuz" Subject: joni and guerin at home 'Halfway through the tape a phone rings. It is a friend with an invitation to a party. "Yes, we'd love to," says Joni. "But why don't you ask John," she says after a pause. "If I suggest it, he'll think I want to see my old boy friends." ' when i heard about guerin's death, i immediately thought of this bit from an article i read when i was 13!!!! knowing that guerin was a scorpio like joni, i always tried to imagine how um... *jealous* they must have been of each other. well, i've just found the article at jmdl.com. (where else?) the article has some nice references to guerin and joni's domestic life. check it out at http://www.jmdl.com/articles/view.cfm?id=6 wally (thank you, les!) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 17:22:01 -0800 From: Randy Remote Subject: Re: Finding the '1' (was: John Guerin) Catherine McKay wrote: > --- chuck eisenhardt > wrote: > Lama is correct to tie the phrase 'finding > the 1' to > > music theory, at > > least in the popular lexicon. And it's true that > > musicians will refer to > > the tones and intervals in the diatonic (whole tone, > > or do-re-mi) > > scale by their numbers. Classical types will refer > > to the '1' as the 'tonic', > > and pop or jazz musicians will refer to a chord > > based on the tonic as the '1' > > chord in a given song. > > If you're numbering chords by whether they're tonic or > dominant or whatever, don't you normally use roman > numerals... which would make it "I" after all. I > always see chords referred to as I, IV, V and so on > when people are using that system. Yes, you are right-if you are using the "Nashville system" for numbering chords in a progression, you would use the roman numeral. On the other hand, if you were talking about constructing individual chords (like a major is 1-3-5) you would use the numbers. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 18:31:32 -0800 From: "Russell Bowden" Subject: Re: 1 and the root of the chord Drove to the North Shore today listening to Hejira with new ears, re: John Guerin. Hi, Russ in Honolulu, here. If you're playing a C major chord, then the C note is 1. The 3 and the 5 would be the E and the G. C scale C-1, D-2, E-3, F-4, G-5, A-6, B-7, the next C would be 8 AND 1 because it's the end and the beginning of a new scale. If you're playing in G-Flat major, then G-Flat would be 1, etc. If you've heard of the 1-4-5 pattern of most basic songs, 1 is the key the song is in. For example: C major. C is one The 4 and 5 are the dominant and sub-dominant chords associated with that key, inthis case 4=F and 5=G. Is this at all clear? Aloha, Coco Nutz (Russ) - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Scope out the new MSN Plus Internet Software  optimizes dial-up to the max! ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 21:32:19 EST From: PassScribe@aol.com Subject: Re: On Inventing chords << From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: In Search Of The Lost Chord **Joni Mitchell has guitar chords that she actually INVENTED** I have to admit that I didn't know this, Rick...exactly which chords did she invent? Or did you mean that she devised new tunings for already existing chords? Not being a musician I don't know if there's a difference. Bob >> Hummmm... Being the "new" musician that I am, but being a beginner on piano and not guitar, and knowing something about chords in general... I would say: no one can claim that they INVENTED any particular chord as all chords are just any number of notes played together and the numerous possibilities would seem endless, (whether the chords sound good or not is another issue). However, it can be said that someone could PLAY a chord that not many other people could play because it is very complex or hard to accomplish; for example, if you had huge hands and long fingers, you could play a chord with notes spaced far apart on the keyboard that someone else with smaller hands/shorter fingers could NOT play. Perhaps Rick means that Joni "invented" numerous guitar TUNINGS, which is an art in itself as you're not playing notes where they would normally be played in conventional tunings... is this correct, all you guitarists out there? Or, I suppose you could say that Joni "invented" certain chord ARRANGEMENTS or PROGRESSIONS, which is most certainly a part of writing a song that sounds different from so many others. In any event, Joni is a master songwriter, musician and a chord "craftsman" (or "craftswoman", if you prefer.) Kenny B ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 22:13:28 -0500 (EST) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: On Inventing chords --- PassScribe@aol.com wrote: > Perhaps Rick means that Joni "invented" numerous > guitar TUNINGS, which is > an art in itself as you're not playing notes where > they would normally be > played in conventional tunings... is this correct, > all you guitarists out there? Yes, that's it. Once you get the Joni tunings in place, then playing her chords is fairly simple. Most involve only one or two fingers pressing down any string, or a barre straight across all or some of the strings. Normally barre chords are a pain to play (for me, they are, anyway and many people find them difficult as well - I get cramps in my hands from this!) but if it's JUST a barre with no other fingers pressed down, or only one, then it's not so bad. And the patterning of which left-hand fingers are pressing down on strings, and in which shape, repeats as well; so, once you've got one or two chord shapes in any one tuning, from there it's usually just a matter of moving up and down the frets of the guitar, creating some great-sounding chords with not a whole lot of effort on the part of the left hand. (On the other hand, SOOOOooo many tunings, so little time!) ===== Catherine Toronto - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- We all live so close to that line, and so far from satisfaction ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 21:42:01 -0600 From: Subject: RE: Finding the "1" (was: John Guerin) Scott Price wrote: "Agreed...the "one" she refers to is the first beat of the measure, but seeing as how Joni is no stranger to metaphor I'll also toss in that I believe she was thanking him not only for his musical guidance, but personal contentment as well." Yeah, that last is what I thought, too (see my post of yesterday). It seemed to be very much a dual-purpose "thank you." Mary. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2004 02:09:08 -0500 From: ljirvin@jmdl.com Subject: Today's Library Links: January 13 On January 13 the following articles were published: 1975: "Studio Star" - Newsweek (Mention) http://www.jmdl.com/articles/view.cfm?id=1121 1980: "Another Hyphen for Joni Mitchell" - Los Angeles Times (News Item, with photographs) http://www.jmdl.com/articles/view.cfm?id=158 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2004 00:38:14 -0700 From: "Bill Bubb" Subject: re: guitar tunings Goodness gracious, Joni has a good amount of guitar tunings and as a newbie on the acoustic guitar, it's taking a little while for my "ear" to figure them all out. Is there a article somewhere about tunings that would be helpful so I could tune a little quicker in between songs with the greatest of ease. Thanks for your help. Bill ------------------------------ End of onlyJMDL Digest V2004 #9 ******************************* ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she? (http://www.siquomb.com/siquomb.cfm)