From: les@jmdl.com (onlyJMDL Digest) To: onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Subject: onlyJMDL Digest V2003 #384 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/onlyjoni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com Unsubscribe: mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe onlyJMDL Digest Wednesday, December 10 2003 Volume 2003 : Number 384 ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: here we go again - the nature of this list [BRYAN8847@aol.com] Cool Water - What CD Is That On? ["Bill Bubb" ] RE: Here we go again (far too long, sorry) ["Ross, Les" ] Re: Here we go again (far too long, sorry) [Jerry Notaro ] oh man Joni going be that close ["Loa Nickloy" ] Miles of Aisles ["Donna Binkley" ] in this holiday season [HOOPSJOHN1@aol.com] RE: How I came upon Joni's Music [Steve Polifka ] Joni mention in Esquire ["Kate Bennett" ] Re: Joni mention in Esquire ["mike pritchard" ] funds ("co-mingling.") ["Marianne Rizzo" ] RE: How I came upon Joni's Music ["Donna Binkley" Subject: Here we go again I wish that you people would decide to have a Joni Mitchell discussion list (as the Joni Mitchell website advertises, and to which newbies are directed) -- one which would be like other music-oriented discussion lists I'm on -- instead of a "Caring Friends Network" list. (I'm speaking in general here, and not specifically about the call for funds for MG.) All of this *on-list*, community involvement in each other's personal lives has made me uncomfortable here from the first, and, in my opinion, it has always been a potential powder keg -- one which is now about to blow, it would appear. I have been moved to post at length, several times over the past couple of years, as to my rationale for feeling this way (so I won't again tonight), and, in doing so, I have made some (imo) very persuasive arguments for there being a different "environment" here on what is supposed to me the J(oni)M(itchell)D(iscussion)L(ist). "Joni Only" is not the answer for me -- nor should it be my alternative -- as my interests are more wide-ranging as they pertain to music and other arts enjoyed by fans of Joni Mitchell. How about, instead, if people want to have a "supportive friends' list," they be asked to start a new "supportive friends' list" instead? Those same people could be active here on the JMDL, as well, if the topics are of sufficient interest to them. How many active posters are there here, really? Thirty, maybe? Do we have any idea what that number represents, percentage-wise, verses the total number of subscribers? Think of the music content we are likely missing because of this touchy-feely close-knit group thing that goes on ad nauseum. How many people come to the list via the website (as I did), lurk for a week or so, and then unsub? I'll bet it's a fair number. Either that or they continue to lurk for the perverse enjoyment of watching you all. I've stayed because Joni Mitchell is one of the handful of artists who's meant the most to me in my lifetime, and because there are people here whose posts I genuinely look forward to reading. Jim Valid points I guess...but I for one (though I rarely or never actually get really personal here) enjoy the almost intimate goings on here. If I don't want to read something, I just skip it. I end up skipping, or barely skimming, most of it. It really does seem like a kind of community to me. Didn't NJC this because the subject is something all might be interested in. Bryan ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 03:22:34 -0700 From: "Bill Bubb" Subject: Cool Water - What CD Is That On? Though this isn't one of Joni's original writings, she does an excellent job with singing this haunting song. I miss it. What CD is it on? Is there any guitar tablature anywhere (on the internet) of this wonderful tune? Thanks. Bill ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 06:27:38 -0800 From: "Victor Johnson" Subject: RE: Here we go again > I wish that you people would decide to have a Joni Mitchell discussion list > (as the Joni Mitchell website advertises, and to which newbies are > directed) Who is you people? All of > this *on-list*, community involvement in each other's personal lives has > made me uncomfortable here from the first, and, On the contrary, I think there is very little, if any, involvement in each other's personal lives . There are only a handful of people that know anything about my personal life and that has always been off list. in my opinion, it has always > been a potential powder keg -- one which is now about to blow, it would > appear. Amelia, it's just a false alarm...( sorry couldn't resist) but seriously, in my opinion, what creates a problem is not developing a closekit community. Considering the music of Joni Mitchell, it seems almost inevitable. What I think the heart of the problem is, is using this as a place for venting which is destructive and tends to be counterproductive to a peaceful community that is largely about music as far as I can tell. And there has been alot of venting lately, which makes people uncomfortable(me included)and tends to bring up control issues. It would seem there are now going to be several posts from people telling the list how they should be conducting their business in the jmdl. > How many active posters are there here, really? Thirty, maybe? Do we have > any idea what that number represents, percentage-wise, verses the total > number of subscribers? Think of the music content we are likely missing > because of this touchy-feely close-knit group thing that goes on ad nauseum. >How many people come to the list via the website (as I did), lurk for a week > or so, and then unsub? I'll bet it's a fair number. Either that or they > continue to lurk for the perverse enjoyment of watching you all. There are clearly some issues on this list that need to be resolved but this last paragraph is just more venting and continuing this negativity that has cropped up. I agree with you in that this list has in some ways, become an extension of jonifest which has been going on for some time now. As someone who has been part of both for a long time, I see some real challenges in maintaining them and how they interact together. There is no touchy-feely close knit group though. It is each person's individual decision how much they want to participate in the jmdl. And people here are adults(most of them anyway.) They can choose whether or not they want to subscribe for themselves. I haven't seen a lack of music content here in fact its mostly been about music so I'm not sure why this argument is even being made here. For some reason, I keep thinking of Alice in Wonderland at the end of the story when the queen is ordering her beheaded, all chaos breaks loose, and she says, "You're all just a pack of cards." That's what this list feels like sometimes. Victor Johnson New cd "Parsonage Lane" available now Produced by Chris Rosser at Hollow Reed Studios, Asheville http://www.waytobluemusic.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 11:31:31 -0000 From: "Ross, Les" Subject: RE: Here we go again (far too long, sorry) Re : "Jim Leonard" Re : Subject: Here we go again Well, I'm not sure I agree with much of this though as a point of view it merits response. Far from discarding the broad scope of the general music and joni interest which this forum sponsors among all contributing and lurking parties, I think what has evolved here with respect to 'community' is testament to the strength and quality of the relationships which have built up over the time its been running. Relationships built around shared musical interests as well as those of a more personal nature. That 'fests' are initiated all over the place only adds to the likelihood that 'community' and 'touchy feely' will happen. I just do not agree that is of itself a problem unless it fails to meet with a given agenda - something happily absent hereabouts. Jim's sentiment is that what is happening here is too divorced from Joni Mitchell and matters musical. Perhaps that is a reflection on how society and our commitments and slavery thereto can offer this kind of environment as a form of respite. But I can't speak with any authority on this as it's little more than an impression. But overall as a regular consumer of the joni-digest, I've not been conscious that 'the community involvement in each other's personal lives' is as pervasive as Jim directs here. Perhaps that's because I have become personally involved with some of the list members. For myself I involve myself in these lives only so much as I see fit and am able to service. I don't think I'm unique in that respect. I know that when I first came to the list the fact that there were friendships between some of the posters, evident from what I could read, put me off a little. That says more about my own reactions to experiences elsewhere and little about the health of the list. It was this last that informed my decision to stay and weather some of the nonsense that passes for list posting (the entire period of the election [and after] of the present President of the USA being a particular offense for this reader). This addresses Jim's speculation on what newbie's might do on finding their way here from the JMDL website. That they (the very many?) would either unsub or stick around for the 'perverse enjoyment' it might realise is as I say speculation and can be discarded. Why? Because its being speculation and proposed as supportive to his argument means inevitably that it can equally be used (and discarded) to contradict it on the grounds that it has the same baseless currency. I'll ignore the asperity explicit in the ad nausea and perversity remarks. I think the discussion list is what it is. Obvious perhaps. Those who contribute contribute what they are inclined to and because they are inclined to. That Les Irvin (as owner of this facility) decides on matters relating to its use does not intervene to moderate other than on occasions of gross indiscipline indicates that as owner this is what he sees fit. The responsibility for what appears here is entirely in the gift of those who want to write here. If more want to write on subjects of a musical nature then there is nothing to stop them doing so. I'm completely aware of Jim's point that because of the snapshot nature of transient browsing, what the list offers can mediate against newbies but again the responsibility for that has to rest with the newbie. In the period of american musical history the rest of the world would be seriously misguided on the nature and identity of said musical culture if all they exposed themselves to was Bratney Spoors and her ilk. (Sorry Britney, luv ya really, specially them duds! Got it goin' on girl! etc etc etc) And that's quite enough from me. Les (London) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 07:17:31 -0500 (EST) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: Cool Water - What CD Is That On? --- Bill Bubb wrote: > Though this isn't one of Joni's original writings, > she does an > excellent job with singing this haunting song. I > miss it. What CD > is it on? > > Is there any guitar tablature anywhere (on the > internet) of this > wonderful tune? > > Thanks. Bill Bill, the song "Cool Water" is from "Chalk mark in a rainstorm." You can find guitar tabs for this and just about any Joni song you could dream of, at http://www.jmdl.com/guitar/index.cfm (in fact there are even three variations to this song posted). If you're new to the list, welcome. And if you're into playing Joni on guitar, you are in for a real treat - there's just so much to choose from, and the transcribers (Sue, Marian, Mark and Howard... and you know there may be more) have done an excellent job on this. And there's also a separate list for guitar people maintained by Sue MacNamara - you can find info and subscribe to it at http://www.jmdl.com/wanderer/ ===== Catherine Toronto - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- We all live so close to that line, and so far from satisfaction ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 07:34:36 -0500 From: vince Subject: Here we go again: don't go there Jim Leonard wrote: >I wish that you people would decide to have a Joni Mitchell discussion list >(as the Joni Mitchell website advertises, and to which newbies are >directed) -- one which would be like other music-oriented discussion lists >I'm on -- instead of a "Caring Friends Network" list. > The JMDL is what it is, no apologies. The JMDL has been around 1997 and evolved into a community. All lists that are going on their 7th year will evolve into some type of community. I am glad the JMDL is what it has become. Music has been and will discussed exhaustively in the JMDL. The richness of the offerings on jonimitchell.com reflect that. The vastness of the JMDL music discussions have ended up as the fullness of that site. What would you have us do? Discuss Heijera vs FTR once again according to some manufactured schedule? Have a computer generate when to discuss tabulatures - again? Please. These things happen as they naturally happen. It cannot be manufactured to meet your wish of what you want as opposed to what flows from the people. What gets discussed here is what comes from the people here. My your real complaint with your post is that you have totally discounted all of the music discussion that has taken place in this past year. You are focusing on one type of posting to the total exclusion of the rest, I dare say, the majority of posts. The JMDL in its non njc mode is all about music. The JMDL in its njc mode is about the life and times of Joni Mitchell. As it was in 1997, as it is now, and will be forever, I hope. You tell us what "you people" ought to do. I always wonder when someone tells "you people" what to do. I have a suggestion: please remain a member of the JMDL but instead of telling us what to do, *you* do it, *you* take the responsibility of *your* suggestion and create a new all music only list and invite us to join, keep us posted as to how it is going, we will wish you well, and maybe what *you* do acting as *you people* can become another aspect of the JMDL as jonimitchell.com has become an integral part of the JMDL for the permanent archiving of all of the music discussions that have taken place on the JMDL. And I remind that in part your challenge will be to keep any internet discussion list going with no caring friends community evolving. Vince PS I also differ from your discounting of the people who do not actively post. I think your claimed number of daily repeat posters is a bit low, but also suggest it exceeds the actual norms for these type of lists. A large number of non-daily posters are here because they welcome the JMDL community but are not the type to post daily or don't have the time but want the contact with this community. That membership has held very steady levels for all these years says that what we have is working. There is a point where it becomes too large and impersonal. But please show us, stay a JMDLer but start the list that you think ought to be, and lets see what happens over time. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 08:31:24 -0500 From: Jerry Notaro Subject: Re: Here we go again (far too long, sorry) > Re : "Jim Leonard" > Re : Subject: Here we go again > > Well, I'm not sure I agree with much of this though as a point of view it > merits response. > > Far from discarding the broad scope of the general music and joni interest > which this forum sponsors among all contributing and lurking parties, I > think what has evolved here with respect to 'community' is testament to the > strength and quality of the relationships which have built up over the time > its been running. I'm chiming in as a long time JMDLer to agree with Les. What this list is is a testament to Joni and her art: people who care, rather than not care. I don't always agree with all of the actions or opinions of my brothers and sisters on this list, but I will defend them to the end. The survival rate of lists which were started with similar interests is about 2 percent. I think we are going on 8 years, now. That says a lot for its founder and members. Jerry ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 08:40:11 -0500 From: vince Subject: Re: Here we go again: don't go there vince wrote: > Jim Leonard wrote: > >> I wish that you people would decide to have a Joni Mitchell >> discussion list >> (as the Joni Mitchell website advertises, and to which newbies are >> directed) -- one which would be like other music-oriented discussion >> lists >> I'm on -- instead of a "Caring Friends Network" list. > > The JMDL is what it is, no apologies. The JMDL has been around 1997 > and evolved into a community. All lists that are going on their 7th > year will evolve into some type of community. I am glad the JMDL is > what it has become. > > Music has been and will discussed exhaustively in the JMDL. The > richness of the offerings on jonimitchell.com reflect that. The > vastness of the JMDL music discussions have ended up as the fullness > of that site. I misspoke. That last sentences should have read: The richness of the offerings on jmdl.com and jonimitchell.com reflect that. The vastness of the JMDL music discussions have ended up as the fullness of those two sites. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 09:07:34 -0500 From: "Loa Nickloy" Subject: oh man Joni going be that close Rats i am not going be able to see her.Thanks for telling though. One of the reason i joined.To see where she is playing and to see if i can get there.as Frankie said,'"That Life".riding high in april shot down in may.oh well,another time. Right. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 06:38:54 -0800 From: frasere@intergate.ca Subject: Joni mention in Esquire The January '04 issue of Esquire is titled "Damn good advice from superheroes, supermodels, bigshots and heavyweights". Former model Christie Brinkley: "I couldn't count the hours I spent by my stereo deciphering Joni Mitchell's lyrics and adding them to my life's meaning. When I got the chance to meet her, there were so many things I wanted to say, and I was so overwhelmed that I couldn't talk. She said, "You know how many times people ask me if I'm your Mom?" I tried to speak again, but nothing came out." Well, my opinion of Chritie has raised a notch! Best, Stephen in Vancouver who had a dream last night that Bob Muller and I were hanging out with Joni in British Columbia! ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 15:10 +0000 (GMT Standard Time) From: steph@cix.co.uk (Anita Gabrielle Tedder) Subject: RE: Here we go again Jim Leonard wrote <> It has been hard reading about the recent difficulties - but it goes with the territory of every group. This may not be any help, but you can't have a large group of people agree on everything and who get along all the time. << How about, instead, if people want to have a "supportive friends' list," they be asked to start a new "supportive friends' list" instead? Those same people could be active here on the JMDL, as well, if the topics are of sufficient interest to them.>> Still a bit hard to police this, don't you think? Where will the line be? Who decides acceptable topics? If I write an email about how much the song 'Trouble Child' meant to me and what was going on in my life at that time, would it be intrusive? Should I discuss the tuning or the way the lines scan or can I say what the song means to me? Would it be mainly Joni content or Anita content? Would it be interesting to others on the list? And I'm thinking what Joni content is there in this email? Please don't think I know "the answer" because I don't. I just think it's difficult when people do things in a group and I/you don't like how they are or what they do or say. <> Me too :~)The thing with Joni's music is that it touches us in our deepest places and that means that many of the people who like her music are likely to be emotional people. Much of Joni's music is highly personal and a group of people who come together because of her music are likely (thought not exclusively) to reflect this - and maybe this will mean that they too will speak personally. Not only that, the people involved with this list do more than discuss Joni - they also put on fantastic events that lead to further involvement in that people meet up and exchange money, art, music, drink (a lot :~) etc. which further changes the parameters of the group. The good thing about email is that you don't have to read everything, so could you skip the touchy-feely ones you don't like and you don't have to send any money if you don't want to. I'm not particularly keen on the top Joni 10 things that come along every now and again but it doesn't mean that people shouldn't do it just because it's not relevant to me. Personally, I am interested in how people have come to find Joni, what has touched them about her music and what use they have made of many of her ideas in their lives. It means a lot to me that people on this list (some of whom I have been blessed to meet)want to try and reach out to others in need - but it doesn't mean you or anyone else has to feel that way or share my perspective. I feel much of Joni's music is about contacting and connecting with others in their darkness and this is what some folk have recently been doing here on this site. I like groups that are inclusive and battle away when the going gets rough, like it has been. It makes it all very real. We are all capable of so much good and so much bad - of getting it so wrong and getting it so right. I was listening to DJWD last night and was struck by Jericho and the lines: " Anyone will tell you Just how hard it is to make and keep a friend Maybe they'll short sell you Or maybe it's you Judas,in the end." Being a member of any group involves taking a risk as we all try to find what's okay to do and what it isn't. At some point, we may each feel betrayed and then go on to be the betrayer.It's human. There have been difficult feelings around recently and it has been hard. I hope everyone will hold fast through the current storm. Oh well, I suppose that last bit where I quote Joni means that this email has Joni content. Perhaps I can risk sending it - but how to mark it is something else! With love and good intention Anita ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 09:57:25 -0500 From: Bob Shemkovitz Subject: Re: Here we go again on 12/10/03, Jim Leonard wrote: > I wish that you people would decide to have a Joni Mitchell discussion > list... instead of a "Caring Friends Network" list... Jim, I don't even know how to begin to respond to your post. Let me get this straight - you're "uncomfortable" because some people have found friendships here and actually care about each other? Well, let's put a stop to that nonsense right away! You say we are likely missing music content in our discussion "because of this touchy-feely close-knit group thing." How exactly do close relationships among the listers prevent anyone or everyone from posting whatever music content they wish to share? In my case, the only thing that prevents me from posting more often is the fact that I currently only have email at work, and don't always have sufficient time here to post as often as I'd like. Yet in spite of my limited involvement, I've found many people who have very happily shared Joni music and videos with me, a total stranger, simply because we share a deep appreciation for this wonderful artist - virtually all of whose work, by the way, is inspired by her own touchy-feely, close-knit sense of community with the rest of humanity. May I suggest that, instead of railing against the "environment" of a really wonderful community of Joni fans, you simply begin another discussion list; one where members can discuss chord changes and rhyme schemes and orchestrations, without getting bogged down in the kinds of relationships and feelings that the songs were intended to express and foster. And I don't mean to denigrate those kinds of discussions - I enjoy them too - just pointing out that Joni's gift to the world encompasses a lot more than alternate tunings. As for the "potential powder keg about to blow," hey, if it's gonna blow, let it blow. I'm going to send a check anyway. I've never met the person I'm sending it to, nor the person who solicited it, but I know, with absolute certainty, that it's going to be used for its intended purpose. And that's exactly the kind of group that I was looking for when I first joined, even if I didn't know it at the time! Jim, I think most people here have found the kind of community they were looking for. Those who haven't should either adjust their expectations to coincide with what they've found here, or keep looking. Whichever way you choose to go, I wish you luck. Bob ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 10:04:52 -0600 From: "Donna Binkley" Subject: Miles of Aisles How about a new thread? Yes we've done this, but here's the thing, I recently met a new friend, she lives in Austin and is a new Joni fan - - but only has a couple of her albums. She bought and listened to Miles of Aisles this week for the first time and loves it!! She is thinking of joining us here, so I thought this: name or quote your favorite line, moment, song etc. from Miles of Ailes or why you like or dislike it... "dial in the number who's bound to love ya..." "drink up now it's gettin on time to close..." "and me, the chirp!!" Anyone else? Donna, no longer the only Joni fan in Texas!! This message has been scanned by the E250. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 11:16:37 EST From: HOOPSJOHN1@aol.com Subject: in this holiday season Friends, In this holiday season and in ALL of life's season's i wish you joy, love and lots and lots of peace. pax noel ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 10:33:50 -0600 From: Steve Polifka Subject: RE: How I came upon Joni's Music >Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 10:31:58 -0600 >To: steph@cix.co.uk (Anita Gabrielle Tedder) >From: Steve Polifka >Subject: RE: How I came upon Joni's Music >In-Reply-To: > >At 03:10 PM 12/10/2003 +0000, you wrote: >> >>Personally, I am interested in how people have come to find Joni, what has >>touched them about her music and what use they have made of many of her >>ideas in their lives. \>With love and good intention >>Anita >> > >Hi Anita! > Oh, I thought I'd share how I came into Joni with you. >I first heard Joni's Chelsea Morning and BYT on the radio- I loved her voice, even at 14. The latter, which was being played on the radio at the time, was impossible to find in the small town I lived in. So I went to the hardware store (which sold records at the time) to get BYT. Yea, I got it all right. >There on my stereo was The Neighborhood singing it with their melody scalping harmonies! Oh, was I disappointed it wasn't the Joni I heard on the radio. They never played the Nieghborhood's version. > Then in high school, as a Junior, my friend Kim would write me notes and lyrics from Joni's songs, and I loved it. But it took me another year to actually get my first Joni album: Court and Spark. > Oh My God! Help Me was on the radio- and I still think her voice is just heaven on that song-I used to lay on the floor with my head between my sister's stereo to listen to that album play over and over. I couldn't get enough. > Before then, I had been listening to such bands as Alice Cooper, and Uriah Heep, the Doors, Stones, Cat Stevens and the Mamas and the Papas. Well after Joni, I couldn't go back- at least to the rock bands- as a steady diet. >My tastes had changed. Instead I looked for music that satisfied my intelect as well as being melodic. > So every month after Miles of Aisles came out, I went backwards and bought her catalog- FTR, Blue, Ladies of the Canyon, etc., giving myself a month to digest each of them in turn, until I had 7 Mitchell albums on rotation with >some of my others. > And I bought all her music books. I learned dozens of her songs- > Then the wait was on. When was her next golden egg to appear? I'd watch all the music rags with a vengeance, and cut out any clippings I could find. Scouring the music stores, I could usually talk them out of a poster or two, >if they had one. My biggest treasure is my Hejira poster, which was a little beat up and stappled on a music store wall, with some girl there so willing to save it for me because I "must be a big fan of hers..." > And I still am. Jeff always has a few Joni in his car, so anytime anywhere, I can listen to her indescribably delicious music... >Hugs to you, >Steve ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 12:14:18 -0500 From: Bob.Muller@Fluor.com Subject: Re: Joni mention in Esquire ***Stephen in Vancouver who had a dream last night that Bob Muller and I were hanging out with Joni in British Columbia!*** That would be pretty cool - a non-smoker, an ex-smoker, and a chain-smoker! I'm sure that Joni would thoroughly enjoy basking in such virility! Bob NP: Jim Croce, "Ball of Kerrymuir" 1/15/73 - ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The information transmitted is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain confidential and/or privileged material. If you are not the intended recipient of this message you are hereby notified that any use, review, retransmission, dissemination, distribution, reproduction or any action taken in reliance upon this message is prohibited. If you received this in error, please contact the sender and delete the material from any computer. Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender and may not necessarily reflect the views of the company. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 13:08:51 -0500 From: Bob.Muller@Fluor.com Subject: Re: Cool Water - What CD Is That On? Hi Bill, and if you're newly joined up, welcome! Catherine already gave you most of the dirt you asked for, I just wanted to expand a bit. "Cool Water" is one of the high spots for me on what is imo one of Joni's weaker efforts. Of the celebrity duets on this record, it's far & away the most effective, as Willie Nelson's voice is a nice contrast to hers and since he evokes desert imagery with his dusty and sun-weathered appearance and dry voice. And it doesn't get talked about much, but she lyrically reinterprets the Bob Nolan/Sons Of The Pioneers song significantly. The way I see it, the original is basically about 2 guys wandering the desert, in search of water and given instead a mirage. In Joni's version, the two wanderers are not necessarily looking ONLY for any water, they are in search of untainted water. Her rendition has more to do with ecology I think. Original lyric: "Keep a-movin' Dan, don't you listen to him, Dan He's a devil not a man And he spreads the burning sand with water" Joni's lyric: "Keep on movin' Dan Some devils had a plan Buried poison in the sand Don't drink it man It's in the water Cool clear water" So where the original warns of believing the mirage (the devil), Joni's warns of drinking the poisoned water. What's also interesting is that given this scenario, she doesn't alter the chorus much but because of the different framework she's established with the verse, the chorus' MEANING changes. The original: "Dan can you see that big green tree Where the water's running free And it's waiting there for you & me" alludes to a mirage, while Joni's: "In my mind I see A big green tree And a river flowin' free Waiting up ahead for you and me" to me alludes to not a mirage but rather an internal future vision of a true oasis with pure unpolluted water and greenery. Very effective I think. Bob NP: David Crosby, "Song With No Words (Tree With No Leaves)" PS: I couldn't help noticing your address...I was a stamp collector for most of my youth, then at some point I got my first kiss (a next door neighbor named Janey) and soon lost interest in my stamp collection! :~) (My favorite stamps to collect were Russia and Burundi) - ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The information transmitted is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain confidential and/or privileged material. If you are not the intended recipient of this message you are hereby notified that any use, review, retransmission, dissemination, distribution, reproduction or any action taken in reliance upon this message is prohibited. If you received this in error, please contact the sender and delete the material from any computer. Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender and may not necessarily reflect the views of the company. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 13:47:15 -0500 From: "Jim Leonard" Subject: Re: Here we go again Thanks for your responses to my message of last night, both on- an off-list. I wish that the off-list messages, all of which were in support of what I had to say, had been posted here, but such is life. This will be my only other post on this subject, so please don't A frequent component of responses to me has been that the JMDL has been around since 1997, and so it is natural that it has evolved to what it is today (in terms of "the nature" of it). Jerry even said: "The survival rate of lists which were started with similar interests is about 2 percent. I think we are going on 8 years, now." To those of you who seem to have missed my point -- and I agree that my post late last night was a little less eloquent than I would have liked it to have been -- there is a dramatic "difference" between the nature of the JMDL and the nature of the other music-related mailing lists to which I subscribe. It isn't because more emotional, sensitive people are drawn to Joni Mitchell than to other artists. Emotional, sensitive people are drawn to Van Morrison and Neil Young, too. There are 5 other lists to which I subscribe, and all have been around since 1997 (or earlier). None of them are at all like the JMDL in terms of the personal nature of many of the posts. I'm sure there are close relationships which have evolved among subscribers, but the communications between them are not out there for all to see. Messages of comfort and support in trying times are sent in private emails, not to a world-wide public forum. That type of post dominates here, in my opinion, despite Vince's claims to the contrary. What I object to is this: the publishing of what is almost universally (elsewhere) private communication. On other lists, occasionally a list member may announce that a tragedy has befallen him/her, or that there's something personal to celebrate, but that does not generate copious *on-list* messages in response. (To what end, I ask? So that all may see how wonderful and sensitive we are? Is it a self-worth thing?) Anita asks: "If I write an email about how much the song 'Trouble Child' meant to me and what was going on in my life at that time, would it be intrusive?" Not at all. I am not pointing to posts like that at all! That is just the type of post that is most welcome, as far as I'm concerned. "Should I discuss the tuning or the way the lines scan or can I say what the song means to me? > By all means, I (and most others) would encourage you to tell us what the song means to you. "I feel much of Joni's music is about contacting and connecting with others in their darkness and this is what some folk have recently been doing here on this site." Here's an interesting Joni Content challenge. Please support that contention, that much of Joni's music is about connecting with others in their darkness. I'm not saying I agree or disagree, I'd just like to see the case made. (As a side issue -- and yes, I'm being a wise guy -- please support the position that Joni would want this connecting to be done on a public forum, verses intimately and privately.) At least I managed to sidetrack the conversation for a day, and it was my pleasure to take the heat. I really do hope the list isn't "turn asunder" by "the other matter," and I hope that you in the Caring Friends Network will at least consider what I've had to say, at least as it pertains to the inherent risks involved in so many members having "sensitive and caring" public personas to defend. Best, Jim ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 11:14:15 -0800 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: Joni mention in Esquire That is so sweet! I know how christie feels! Funny that joni says people think she's christie's mom as christie must be closer to joni's age than to her daughter's age... >Former model Christie Brinkley: "I couldn't count the hours I spent by my stereo deciphering Joni Mitchell's lyrics and adding them to my life's meaning. When I got the chance to meet her, there were so many things I wanted to say, and I was so overwhelmed that I couldn't talk. She said, "You know how many times people ask me if I'm your Mom?" I tried to speak again, but nothing came out."< ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 20:24:54 +0100 From: "mike pritchard" Subject: Re: Joni mention in Esquire >>That would be pretty cool - a non-smoker, an ex-smoker, and a chain-smoker! I'm sure that Joni would thoroughly enjoy basking in such virility!<< Bob What the blazes has smoking to do with virility? confused in barcelona NP Danilo Perez - Overjoyed ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 14:56:13 -0500 From: "Marianne Rizzo" Subject: funds ("co-mingling.") Hey, You know, I read Ashara's post for the second time and I understoood something for the first time: It was what some people call an "ah ha! experience." When Jim said the thing about (not quoting exactly) what is this "co-mingling of funds?". . . I think THIS may have been a key phrase that made Ashara and maybe others, at first, think there was some mistrust in the air. I didn't think there were any reasons to think there were any allegations of mistrust at all. . .. until this I re-read this statement. . "co-mingling of funds. . ." I also assumed from the start that Jim did not mistrust Ashara. Do you see what I mean? . . .ie., that this phrase CAN be interpreted as someone being untrustworthy? I hope you can understand what I am trying to say. Not for one minute have I mistrusted Ashara or anyone here when it comes to appropriating funds. I have assumed, from the start, that no one else alledged this in anyway either. I think that is partly what is happening. . . . Ashara feels that maybe some distrust her. . . THAT'S NOT IT A T A L L. Gee, heavens no! For my part of it: I am only saying that If I am going to donate money I would like to know some things about where the money is going. If something is in fact "a donation," then I feel it is fair for a donor (or potential donor) to know how much the thing costs. And your are right Ashara, if you or someone doesn't want to tell me, then I have the right not to donate. Take for an example, the Joni Mitchell statue. (still happening or not, I don't know) How much is it going to cost? I would like to know this before I donate. I would also like to know how much has been raised. Just because I asked this question in no way means that I don't trust the person who is working on the project. kapeesh? (however you spell it) Marianne _________________________________________________________________ Shop online for kids toys by age group, price range, and toy category at MSN Shopping. No waiting for a clerk to help you! http://shopping.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 14:51:34 -0600 From: "Donna Binkley" Subject: RE: How I came upon Joni's Music Sweet story Hot Pants!! Thanks for sharing it. db >>> Steve Polifka 12/10/2003 10:33:50 AM >>> >Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 10:31:58 -0600 >To: steph@cix.co.uk (Anita Gabrielle Tedder) >From: Steve Polifka >Subject: RE: How I came upon Joni's Music >In-Reply-To: > >At 03:10 PM 12/10/2003 +0000, you wrote: >> >>Personally, I am interested in how people have come to find Joni, what has >>touched them about her music and what use they have made of many of her >>ideas in their lives. \>With love and good intention >>Anita >> > >Hi Anita! > Oh, I thought I'd share how I came into Joni with you. >I first heard Joni's Chelsea Morning and BYT on the radio- I loved her voice, even at 14. The latter, which was being played on the radio at the time, was impossible to find in the small town I lived in. So I went to the hardware store (which sold records at the time) to get BYT. Yea, I got it all right. >There on my stereo was The Neighborhood singing it with their melody scalping harmonies! Oh, was I disappointed it wasn't the Joni I heard on the radio. They never played the Nieghborhood's version. > Then in high school, as a Junior, my friend Kim would write me notes and lyrics from Joni's songs, and I loved it. But it took me another year to actually get my first Joni album: Court and Spark. > Oh My God! Help Me was on the radio- and I still think her voice is just heaven on that song-I used to lay on the floor with my head between my sister's stereo to listen to that album play over and over. I couldn't get enough. > Before then, I had been listening to such bands as Alice Cooper, and Uriah Heep, the Doors, Stones, Cat Stevens and the Mamas and the Papas. Well after Joni, I couldn't go back- at least to the rock bands- as a steady diet. >My tastes had changed. Instead I looked for music that satisfied my intelect as well as being melodic. > So every month after Miles of Aisles came out, I went backwards and bought her catalog- FTR, Blue, Ladies of the Canyon, etc., giving myself a month to digest each of them in turn, until I had 7 Mitchell albums on rotation with >some of my others. > And I bought all her music books. I learned dozens of her songs- > Then the wait was on. When was her next golden egg to appear? I'd watch all the music rags with a vengeance, and cut out any clippings I could find. Scouring the music stores, I could usually talk them out of a poster or two, >if they had one. My biggest treasure is my Hejira poster, which was a little beat up and stappled on a music store wall, with some girl there so willing to save it for me because I "must be a big fan of hers..." > And I still am. Jeff always has a few Joni in his car, so anytime anywhere, I can listen to her indescribably delicious music... >Hugs to you, >Steve This message has been scanned by the E250. This message has been scanned by the E250. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 21:55:58 -0000 From: "Martin Giles" Subject: The Hissing Of Summer Lawns - remastering? Hi folks I have to admit to a personal failing, in that I don't actually own a legit copy of HOSL. I have a CD-R and a rough old pre-recorded cassette, both of which sound very thin and 'edgy'. Some of you will know that I work in a music studio as a mastering engineer. Every now and then, I get the urge to 'remaster' (for my own benefit) an album in my collection. So, I was thinking of doing a remastering job on 'Hissing', but I need to start with the best commercially available version. So my question is - What's regarded as the best available edition? Is there a HDCD edition of it to be had? Some initial explorations with my CD-R copy seem to show very promising results, so I've definitely got the urge to tackle this now. If it bears fruit - would anyone be interested in a copy? Martin. In London. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 18:07:37 -0500 From: "Richard Flynn" Subject: RE: The Hissing Of Summer Lawns - remastering? HOSL does exist in an HDCD version. To my ears that and the vinyl are the best existing versions. How do you remaster without master tapes? Oh, I just looked down and see you use inverted commas with the term 'remaster'. > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-joni@jmdl.com [mailto:owner-joni@jmdl.com]On Behalf Of > Martin Giles > Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2003 4:56 PM > To: joni@smoe.org > Subject: The Hissing Of Summer Lawns - remastering? > > > Hi folks > > I have to admit to a personal failing, in that I don't actually > own a legit > copy of HOSL. I have a CD-R and a rough old pre-recorded cassette, both of > which sound very thin and 'edgy'. Some of you will know that I work in a > music studio as a mastering engineer. Every now and then, I get > the urge to > 'remaster' (for my own benefit) an album in my collection. So, I was > thinking of doing a remastering job on 'Hissing', but I need to start with > the best commercially available version. > > So my question is - What's regarded as the best available > edition? Is there > a HDCD edition of it to be had? > > Some initial explorations with my CD-R copy seem to show very promising > results, so I've definitely got the urge to tackle this now. If it bears > fruit - would anyone be interested in a copy? > > Martin. In London. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2003 00:08:54 +0100 From: Emiliano Subject: Re: The Hissing Of Summer Lawns - remastering? Hi, Martin! Yes, there's an edition HDCD from The Hissing Of Summer Lawns: that's the one I've got, bought from some canadian seller (www.armedio.com) that features many Joni ones at very affordable costs (including shipping): you must note that here, in Spain, finding any SIQUOMB's album in stores it's pure serendipity :-) I'm not very audiophile, though, so I couldn't tell you the difference between those HDCD editions and the prior ones, but I recall being (this question) discussed on list (mainly 13 & 14 March 2003) Have a Wonderful time! Emiliano NP: The Boho Dance PS: I'm interested in anything from you (you'd be corresponded, dear), mainly in that "Topographic Puddles" one! - ----- Mensaje original ----- De: "Martin Giles" Para: Enviado: miircoles, 10 de diciembre de 2003 22:55 Asunto: The Hissing Of Summer Lawns - remastering? > Hi folks > > I have to admit to a personal failing, in that I don't actually own a legit > copy of HOSL. I have a CD-R and a rough old pre-recorded cassette, both of > which sound very thin and 'edgy'. Some of you will know that I work in a > music studio as a mastering engineer. Every now and then, I get the urge to > 'remaster' (for my own benefit) an album in my collection. So, I was > thinking of doing a remastering job on 'Hissing', but I need to start with > the best commercially available version. > > So my question is - What's regarded as the best available edition? Is there > a HDCD edition of it to be had? > > Some initial explorations with my CD-R copy seem to show very promising > results, so I've definitely got the urge to tackle this now. If it bears > fruit - would anyone be interested in a copy? > > Martin. In London. ------------------------------ End of onlyJMDL Digest V2003 #384 ********************************* ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she? (http://www.siquomb.com/siquomb.cfm)