From: les@jmdl.com (onlyJMDL Digest) To: onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Subject: onlyJMDL Digest V2003 #320 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/onlyjoni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com Unsubscribe: mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe onlyJMDL Digest Sunday, October 12 2003 Volume 2003 : Number 320 ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: JMDL Digest V2003 #510 [BRYAN8847@aol.com] Re: NCBD- Dud? Oui! Oui! ["amelio747" ] Re: Joni is a miracle - now singles SJC ["amelio747" ] Re: Joni is a miracle - now singles SJC ["ron" ] Re: Joni on others [Bobsart48@aol.com] re:T'log - B'log ["J.David Sapp" ] Re: T'log - B'log [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: T'log - B'log ["J.David Sapp" ] re: Tea Leaf Prophecy ["mia ortlieb" ] Joni in Time-Life Ultimate 70's collection ["michael o'malley" ] Re: Joni on others ["mack watson-bush" ] Re: Joni on others ["ron" ] liner notes on "Cool Water" ["Lama, Jim L'Hommedieu" ] liner notes on "Passion Play (When All The Slaves Are Free) ["Lama, Jim L] liner notes on "Cherokee Louise" ["Lama, Jim L'Hommedieu" Subject: Re: NCBD- Dud? Oui! Oui! - ----- Original Message ----- From: To: ; Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2003 1:31 AM Subject: Re: NCBD- Dud? Oui! Oui! > > > Oh, I understand that & of course I agree. My point was to try and separate > the singer from the song, and just look at the song itself. I just don't see > where it tackles the issue very well. Matter of fact, this verse: > > "I heard you leaving > Late last night > I heard you screaming down the mountain > Like you were running red lights > (Red lights) > You had some trash can rock band pounding" > > Puts me in the mind of a teenage relationship where the boy gets in his car, > peeling out and cranking the music way up. Maybe that's her point, I don't > know. Just seems kind of immature for a mid-life relationship, that's all. Well actually I always thought it was an over egsagerated reference to Klein being much younger than Joni. > Now, what I DO think is great is a song like "Facelift"...now HERE we see > another obviously autobiographical situation, but to me it's described so much > more sincerely, a woman still at odds with her Mom an negotiating a new love and > discovering that she's still battling the same obstacles as when she was > younger. > > "For God's sake, I'm middle-aged, Mama > And time moves swift > And you know happiness is the best facelift" > > Anyway, I think that if she becomes so inspired she still has so much more to > say about this phase of her life...finally getting to be a mother, and > simultaneously a grandmother, helping her children to discover the joy of life, > still being a daughter herself...so many generations and issues - what a well to > draw from! > > Anyway, the bottom line for me is that NCBD just rings false. True in her > situation I guess, but it lacks that universal quality in her writing that gives > us something we can really feel. But that's just the way I feel about it and I > very much appreciate your thoughts on the subject as well. Yes I do like this song but after a while the VG8 really gets on my nerves - it's just too synth-like! And yes the lyrics do come accross much more clearer as being personal. However I do like a bit of mystery to a song. Also a lot of Joni's music is pure escapism for me, I mean I don't relate with songs like 'For The Roses' or 'Barangrill' or infact probably the whole of THOSL but yes I do feel them. Just try and figure out what a lot of Tori Amos's lyrics mean! Thank you Bob I apreciate your thoughts too. Steve NP: Icicle - Tori ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2003 11:00:13 +0100 From: "amelio747" Subject: Re: Joni is a miracle - now singles SJC Thanks Brenda you kind of have it covered. Yes I live in the UK and don't listen to the radio anymore because it's so formatted. R1 really annoys me for many reasons but this one time not so long ago they had Jimmy Page on the show as a guest which other radio stations would kill for. They actually played a Led Zeppelin song but that was probably the first time in years! Also they've had many artist on the station name check Joni but do they ever play her! I remember Nelly Fertado and some dance artist mentioned her. NP: Yes, Anastasia - Tori (such an epic) ************** Steve T amelio@sev47.fsnet.co.uk "Red is autumn green is summer Greens are turning and the sand" - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brenda" To: Sent: Saturday, October 11, 2003 12:22 AM Subject: Re: Joni is a miracle - now singles NJC > On 8 Oct 2003 at 11:20, Kate Bennett wrote: > > > eeww that song annoyed the heck out of me...here is my 2 cents > > compared to brenda's $200 but i am not sure if she's hanging out > > here...record companies pay to get their songs on the radio so i think > > this has something to do with it... > > > > bob >I've been noticing this for the last 5+ years. It didn't used to > > be that way. I have no idea why it's that way now. I first started > > noticing this when Cher's "Believe" was a hit for about a year. > > > > I sure miss Brenda's commentary on stuff like this . . .< > > It's always nice to be missed. Thanks guys. Can't stay long, but wanted to > answer. > > This is based on my somewhat foggy recollection of what's happened with single > sales, but here goes. > > The weight given to airplay versus the sale of singles has changed a couple of > times in the last 10 years. Around '96-'97 more weight was given to sales than > airplay. > > The labels went through a period of taking steep losses (around $3/unit cost with > $.99/unit price) on commercial singles to achieve chart position. Around '99 the > lightbulb finally went on and the labels pulled back. (Although you will find > commercial singles available for rap and some R&B, they have for the most part > been phased out with the other genres.) The chart calculation was once again > shifted back to weight airplay more heavily than sales. > > At the same time, there was an increase in radio consolidation, leading to more > stations being programmed centrally, with software doing more of the work of > good-old, human program directors. > > I think that single longevity is more because of the way radio is programmed than > what labels spend to get airplay. This is especially relevant for songs that become > Hot AC hits and Hot AC stations have big audiences and therefore heavy > weighting. > > Hot AC hits end up on the charts forever because songs are rotated the slowest- > meaning they add few songs to their playlist (almost exclusively songs that have > become hits at other formats) and keep them there for a long time. > > Bland is big at Hot AC and change is slow. Once a song is deemed to be > inoffensive to the audience (meaning it researches well-it doesn't get extremely > strong like or dislike) it can stay in rotation for months. > > Contrast it with the UK where there are a lot fewer stations and the industry is > driven (and make money) from singles. > > Hope that helps. > B > > np: Shelby Lynne - "Gonna Be Better" from "Identity Crisis" > A very fine recovery from the tarted up, Glen Ballard fiasco that was "Love, > Shelby" ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2003 11:16:03 +0100 From: "amelio747" Subject: Re: Joni and the other Girls Perhaps, perhaps but there are a lot of people besides Alanis who have outsold Joni. I've also read several times Joni saying that she doesn't sell many records and she only really makes money from the song writing. This to me is a crime because she isn't just a good songwriter lets not forget; singer, musician, and producer. Of course there is a lot of criteria to take into account but all in all I feel she has never quite got the credit she deserves in certain areas. NP: Crayon Angels - Judee Sill ************** Steve T amelio@sev47.fsnet.co.uk "Red is autumn green is summer Greens are turning and the sand" - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brenda" To: Sent: Saturday, October 11, 2003 1:17 AM Subject: Re: Joni and the other Girls > On 6 Oct 2003 at 0:04, StephenToogood wrote: > > > Yes it does amaze me how out of touch Joni is with so much good music. > > I mean she grumbles when hers doesn't get much attention. > > > > I also feel sorry for her because I'm sure it must have been really > > hard. I mean she accomplished a lot as and for a woman in the industry > > and many woman less talented than her kick her ass when it comes to > > record sales. Alanis for example: 'Jagged Little Pill' has sold a > > ridiculous amount. Yes it has a lot of emotion in it and yeah it's > > pretty good but it sure as hell has proved to be less timeless! For me > > anyway because I rarely listen to it now. Also Alanis didn't put as > > much into that record as Joni puts into hers. Of course Joni is like a > > miracle and other artist can't help that. > > I'm not sure that it's particularly helpful to compare Joni's sales with anyone who has > put out a successful record since Michael Jackson's "Thriller" sold 40 million during > it's chart dominance. Music was catapulted from the radio and live shows to > television in a big way, 24 hours a day. It changed everything. Combine that with > the corporatizaiton of labels (the desire for greater returns on every signing and > every release) and the consolidation of radio and you have an atmosphere where > selling a million records is a disappointment - unlike the 70's when a platinum record > was a celebration. > > I don't think it's outrageous to suppose that if "Court & Spark" had its initial release > today with "Help Me" being a big hit at radio and a young, beautiful California-kissed > Joni seducing the audience in a video, that she would have a multi-platinum > success. > > Just my late to the thread $.02. > > B > > np: Samite - "Mwatu" > -------------------------------------------- > "Radio has no future" - Lord Kelvin, 1897 ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2003 12:54:43 +0200 From: "ron" Subject: Re: Joni is a miracle - now singles SJC hi steve t wrote >>>>>NP: Yes, Anastasia - Tori (such an epic) ok - that *really* had me going for a couple of moments - just the thought of a collaboration between, yes, anastasia, and tori - im actually trying to figure out what it would sound like......... ron np - france vs fiji ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2003 10:54:03 EDT From: Bobsart48@aol.com Subject: Re: Joni on others Sorry to get back days later, but that happens to me sometimes. Kate replied re: my post: > >Joni has been a relative flop getting that type of recognition - I'm > certain it is because her work is too high level to be appreciated by the > masses< > > i disagree!!! in her day (& let's face it every artist has their day), joni > was hugely appreciated by the masses & the queen of all music... > > Well, Kate, I stand by my comment, with emphasis on the word 'relative'. > Joni may have been on the cover of Time, and may have been popular with the critics and the higher-level of music listeners and record buyers, but to compare her success in this area with, say, Elton John (8 straight number one albums) or Bruce Springsteen (18 months of selling out arenas) would be comical. Relatively speaking, she lacked the common touch that they both have. That is not to even mention, say, Whitney Houston at her peak. Or Madonnal. Did I hear anyone say Norah Jones ? Actually, in a way, her recognition over the past decade has been greater than in her early 'queen of music' years. to this day > she is among the most admired by other musicians...what could > be more > notable than that? I had conceded that point, though adding that I felt the homage in that area is not quite complete. By the way, I respect and agree with your earlier post about what music/art should be all about - touching souls, not climbing charts. But it's just not a perfect world, eh ? > > > & if other artists are compared to her it is just uneccessary to diss > them...how about just saying that as an artist it bothers her to be compared > at all? > That would be gracious, but probably not truthful. That was part of my apology. I do not find her lack of grace in this area attractive, but I think I understand it, and forgive it. Although I agree with your earlier sentiment, there are differences in quality of art. They are just more subjective, and harder to quantify. It would not bother Joni to be compared with the greatest of the great of all time (although her skill set is sort of tough to find 'comps' with). It bothers her to be compared with lesser artists. Best Bobsart ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2003 11:11:31 -0500 From: "J.David Sapp" Subject: re:T'log - B'log Its All Over Now Bob Muller: I have officially had it.Every time you dis Travelogue I will post: Travelogue is beautiful. A truly special gift from a woman of heart and mind direct to her fans. Should be fun, no? :) peace, david ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2003 12:09:30 EDT From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: T'log - B'log Subject: Re: T'log - B'log Good, maybe you're starting to get it:) peace, david (lying in wait for the next T'log dis and the Jonifest CD's - WHOA HOA) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2003 12:10:02 -0500 From: "mia ortlieb" Subject: re: Tea Leaf Prophecy I love the Tea Leaf Prophecy. In fact, for the past two weeks or so, this line has been ringing in my head: "Summer's just a sneeze in a long long bad winter cold." It's so true! I also wonder about the line "She says she's leaving here, but she don't go." It reminds me so much about the song "Urge for Going." Could "Urge for Going" also be about Joni's mom? Kenny wrote: <> The original "Lysistrata" is actually a Greek Comedy written by Aristophanes. The women of Sparta and Athens organize a sex strike, refusing to go to bed with their husbands until the men stop the war between the two cities, and the plan actually works! Too funny! Mia - now listening to the leaves trembling down _________________________________________________________________ Add MSN 8 Internet Software to your existing Internet access and enjoy patented spam protection and more. Sign up now! http://join.msn.com/?page=dept/byoa ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2003 12:30:04 -0400 From: "michael o'malley" Subject: Joni in Time-Life Ultimate 70's collection I saw a Joni flash on the tube recently - Time-Life's Ultimate 70's collection infomercial. Something like 10 discs of 70's tunes. Curiously, our Joni appears only once, on the 1974 cd, with Help Me. During the infomercial, we are treated to a video snippet of Joni singing this song, she is standing, wearing a long dress, an acoustic guitar around her neck, and her very long, wavy hair falling down her back. Lovely shot. I'd love to see more of this 70's footage, and I wonder, where does it come from? Do we have any video of her 70's concerts besides S&L? This is also the first time I've noticed one of Joni's tunes included in a compilation CD set. Rather unusual isn't it? Also interesting to see that Linda Ronstadt has a song on practically each disc in the series (there's one for each year) - one would easily get the impression that she was the bigger female megastar of that decade. Is this true? Michael in Quebec ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2003 13:20:58 EDT From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: Joni in Time-Life Ultimate 70's collection Subject: RE: Joni on others as far as joni getting recognition i think what i am trying to get across is that in her heyday she had that recognition bigtime..as a young girl i know cuz i was there & it felt like everyone was there with me...it is true she hasn't had the longevity on the radio or the sales of elton (bruce came onto the scene a bit later so he's not as good as a comparison in this case) ... all i can tell you is that the world i was living in at the time of her early career recognized her as perhaps among the most famous & admired of all musicians...but that was my world, maybe it was a bubble i don't know...it sure seemed like everyone was in it with me but isn't that how it is :~} re joni, elton & bruce > Relatively speaking, she lacked the common touch that they both have. < i am not sure that i completely understand what you mean by that- i think she had the common touch more than most, writing in her own blood she spoke of her personal journey & everyone i knew felt she was speaking to their soul so great is her artistry... ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2003 13:11:36 -0500 From: "mack watson-bush" Subject: Re: Joni on others Kate wrote: she had the common touch more than most I find dear Joan extremely uncommon and even on the tunes I don't care for they seem to exude a profound difference from some of the crap out there. Writing of Elton and Bruce, I adore many of Elton's tunes and would call them classic and 'Born to Run' is one of the best albums ever, in my opinion, but they have both put out some common fare, as much so as flies on cow turds in the hot texas sun, that they are not in the same league with Joan. Yes, many have sold well but that doesn' t make them good, in this head. Elton should have went with quality instead of quantity and face it, Bruce simply sold out, especially with that awful 'dancin in the dark.' eeeekkkkk.. The only worse than the song was the video. Ugh. Big fans of both but they are not in the same league with joni mitchell. mack np: gino vannelli-nightwalker ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2003 20:56:34 +0200 From: "ron" Subject: Re: Joni on others hi >>>>bobsart wrote >>>>> but to compare her success in this area with, say, Elton John (8 straight number one albums) ok - first off, consecutive they may have been, but defintely not straight :-) but i do honestly agree that joni does not enjoy the recognition she deserves. and by recognition, i do not mean sales. its a point well made by ani di franco in the interview clip which is doing the rounds on kazaa etc. when many people think of singer songwriter music, or music ffrom the 60's/70's, what is the most common person they flash onto? *probably* its bob dylan? is this not what joni is missing? the automatic reference to her as the icon of 60's/70's artistic excellence in music? sure, there are a lot of people who do - musicians mainly from what ive seen, but its not the first association for most people (well, in my experience anyway). and, i wonder, is this not because of her rfefusal to go all out for popularity and fame? i'm not much up on my background knowledge of rock or musicians, but i do know that both bob dylan and janis were both craving it, and changed their music to gain it (tho still retaining integrity). im certainly of the opinion that elton john did (just compare the two versions of "goodbye norma jean" and that "other" song about the princess) ron ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2003 20:05:55 -0400 From: "Lama, Jim L'Hommedieu" Subject: liner notes on "Cool Water" Here is Joni's paragraph from THE COMPLETE GEFFEN RECORDINGS: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I always loved the Sons Of The Pioneers - classic cowboy music - Roy Rogers' band. I updated this song because water is another issue that people aren't paying enough attention to - like the radioactive waste that is rapidly leeching towards the Colorado River. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> All the best, Lama ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2003 20:12:31 -0400 From: "Lama, Jim L'Hommedieu" Subject: liner notes on "Passion Play (When All The Slaves Are Free) Joni said, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I always like the Rabbi Jesus' spunk and his rebellious spirit. My father told me, "Your Jesus is awfully human." He also said my way of telling the story of Moses and the Burning Bush would be, to some people, blasphemous! This song is basically my telling of the Easter story but it morphs into contemporary ecological and sociological disasters. It is about crisis in the heart and healing of the heart. The "I" perspective that I am singing from is that of Zachius, the little tax collector. He was short. He was jumping up and down in the back row of a large crowd that gathered to witness the arrival of Jesus into the town of Jerusalem. He had climbed into a sycamore tree to get a better look. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> All the best, Lama ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2003 20:14:13 -0400 From: "Lama, Jim L'Hommedieu" Subject: liner notes on "Cherokee Louise" Joni had nothing to say about "Cherokee Louise". She has already given us the ultimate intro, of course, when she appeared on the CBC's "Much Music" programme in Toronto, Ontario. Lama ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2003 21:46:21 EDT From: PassScribe@aol.com Subject: Re: Tea Leaf Prophecy In a message dated 10/11/03 1:10:18 PM, hvnphun16@hotmail.com writes: << The original "Lysistrata" is actually a Greek Comedy written by Aristophanes. The women of Sparta and Athens organize a sex strike, refusing to go to bed with their husbands until the men stop the war between the two cities, and the plan actually works! Too funny! Mia - now listening to the leaves trembling down >> Yeah, now that you mention it, that was the story as I remember it. I guess Todd/Utopia wrote their song "Lysistrata" in reference to that Greek comedy. Thanks for refreshing my memory. Kenny B ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2003 02:03:58 -0400 From: ljirvin@jmdl.com Subject: Today's Library Links: October 12 On October 12 the following articles were published: 1974: "Bowie, Mitchell, Yes Top Poll" - Los Angeles Times (News Item) http://www.jmdl.com/articles/view.cfm?id=771 1998: "Burning Bright" - Time (Review - Album) http://www.jmdl.com/articles/view.cfm?id=381 1998: "Taming Joni Mitchell - Joni's Jazz" - Austin Chronicle (Interview) http://www.jmdl.com/articles/view.cfm?id=37 2000: "My mom, my sister and me" - Sacramento News & Review (Mention) http://www.jmdl.com/articles/view.cfm?id=922 ------------------------------ End of onlyJMDL Digest V2003 #320 ********************************* ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she? (http://www.siquomb.com/siquomb.cfm)