From: les@jmdl.com (onlyJMDL Digest) To: onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Subject: onlyJMDL Digest V2003 #313 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/onlyjoni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com Unsubscribe: mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe onlyJMDL Digest Monday, October 6 2003 Volume 2003 : Number 313 ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: Lakota now "TWTLIL" ["StephenToogood" ] Need help identifying VINE show -- PLEASE! [CDTraderJohn@aol.com] Re: Joni and the other Girls [Les Irvin ] re the duds list [HOOPSJOHN1@aol.com] Re: Joni and the other Girls ["StephenToogood" ] Re: Tracy and Joni and Mariah and Jewel and now Bruuuuuuuce [Murphycopy@a] Re: Lakota, the story behind the song [Murphycopy@aol.com] Re: Joni and the other Girls [Les Irvin ] Re: Tracy and Joni and Mariah and Jewel and now Bruuuuuuuce [RoseMJoy@aol] Re: Joni and the other Girls [AzeemAK@aol.com] Re: Tracy and Joni and Mariah and Jewel and now Bruuuuuuuce [Les Irvin Subject: Re: Lakota now "TWTLIL" > stunned me when I heard the acoustic versions, particularly Window, Number One, The Wolf That Lives In Lindsey, To: ; Sent: Sunday, October 05, 2003 1:43 PM Subject: Re: Lakota > stunned me when I heard the acoustic versions, particularly Window, Number One, The Wolf That Lives In Lindsey, > OK, I sent you that Lakota file, Marian, like David said it's very cool - at > first you expect her to break out in "The Windfall", then she starts Lakota. > And it's a nice performance to be sure. The highlight of that gig for me is the > "work-in-progress" version of Passion Play where she has no lyric yet and > dipthongs her way thru it. > > The breakthrough for me way back when was that 1985 Rock Master Class > recording, with her playing those DED songs acoustically. Maybe if she had toured > CMIARS it would have helped to present these songs without the bells and whistles > and celebrities they saw fit to include in the studio and I would hold it in > higher regard. > > Bob > > NP: Joni, "Hejira" 10/22/88 ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2003 18:35:21 EDT From: CDTraderJohn@aol.com Subject: Need help identifying VINE show -- PLEASE! I've just received a note from Emiliano in Spain informing me that the date of this show seems incorrect as it doesn't match up with Joni's performance timeline. In the interest of getting this correct BEFORE I send these out, can someone please help me to identify this performance? The track list as I have it is pasted below again for reference. Thanks, John in Massachusetts P.S. -- There is nothing in Joni's between song banter that sheds any light on the location, except she makes mention of it being so hot. I just figured she was talking of the TV studio lights. Joni Mitchell PBS-TV Los Angeles November 30, 1969 1) Chelsea Morning 2) Cactus Tree 3) Night in the City 4) Marcie/Nathan LaFraneer 5) Two Houses (medley: Rainy Night House/Blue Boy) 6) For Free 7) Get Together 8) The Fiddle and the Drum 9) I Think I Understand 10) Both Sides Now ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 05 Oct 2003 16:43:14 -0600 From: Les Irvin Subject: Re: Joni and the other Girls At 10/5/2003 10:51 AM, KJHSF@aol.com wrote: >Interestingly, Aimee is one songwriter about whom Joni had some positive >things to say. Something like "she dares to put the anxiety back into >songwriting." Here's the quote from Musician Magazine, December 1985: Bill Flanagan: Fifteen years ago it was perfectly acceptable for a man to sit down and sing about the whole range of his emotions. But now it's not. Of all the new groups on MTV the one who sounds like the most interesting person to me is Aimee Mann of 'Til Tuesday.... Joni: Yeah, exactly! Because nobody for a long time has really dared to put back the anxiety. It's true. I think that's really astute. Entire article: http://www.jmdl.com/articles/view.cfm?id=133 ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2003 19:04:02 EDT From: HOOPSJOHN1@aol.com Subject: re the duds list < Subject: re the duds list>> " amen ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2003 00:04:32 +0100 From: "StephenToogood" Subject: Re: Joni and the other Girls Yes it does amaze me how out of touch Joni is with so much good music. I mean she grumbles when hers doesn't get much attention. I also feel sorry for her because I'm sure it must have been really hard. I mean she accomplished a lot as and for a woman in the industry and many woman less talented than her kick her ass when it comes to record sales. Alanis for example: 'Jagged Little Pill' has sold a ridiculous amount. Yes it has a lot of emotion in it and yeah it's pretty good but it sure as hell has proved to be less timeless! For me anyway because I rarely listen to it now. Also Alanis didn't put as much into that record as Joni puts into hers. Of course Joni is like a miracle and other artist can't help that. The only other artist (regardless of gender) who has a chance of rivalling Joni would be Tori Amos. Her music is very emotional like Joni's but quite removed in most other ways. Also like Joni I think her music and lyrics are usually as good as each other unlike many songwriters. Also remember reading not so long a go that Tori has a very limited record collection which includes a Led Zeppelin box set and Joni's LOTC and BLUE! Maybe that's the key to becoming a highly talented original songwriter - leave enough room for your own ideas! NP: The Vigilante (live) - Judee Sill (I've had this record for less than a week and so far it would stand up against a Joni record quite well!) ************** Steve T amelio@sev47.fsnet.co.uk "Red is autumn green is summer Greens are turning and the sand" - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Les Irvin" To: Sent: Sunday, October 05, 2003 11:43 PM Subject: Re: Joni and the other Girls > At 10/5/2003 10:51 AM, KJHSF@aol.com wrote: > >Interestingly, Aimee is one songwriter about whom Joni had some positive > >things to say. Something like "she dares to put the anxiety back into > >songwriting." > > Here's the quote from Musician Magazine, December 1985: > > Bill Flanagan: > Fifteen years ago it was perfectly acceptable for a man to sit down and > sing about the whole range of his emotions. But now it's not. Of all the > new groups on MTV the one who sounds like the most interesting person to me > is Aimee Mann of 'Til Tuesday.... > > Joni: > Yeah, exactly! Because nobody for a long time has really dared to put back > the anxiety. It's true. I think that's really astute. > > Entire article: http://www.jmdl.com/articles/view.cfm?id=133 ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2003 19:21:08 EDT From: Murphycopy@aol.com Subject: Re: Tracy and Joni and Mariah and Jewel and now Bruuuuuuuce Lama writes: << I think the "no ambition" comment has its roots in the anti-Mariah movement. Ya know, the over-singin, melisma thing that she does. It sounds a bit like "ambition" if I'm decoding my Joni-speak correctly. >> That was my take on that comment too, Jim. But maybe it's because that quote came up during our melisma discussion a few months ago. Women aside, I think someone who is in Joni's league as an overall "creator" of music -- i.e., songwriter, composer, musician, vocalist, performer, etc. -- is Bruuuuce. (Hi, Rosie.) I was wondering . . . has Joni ever dissed him? Has she said anything at all about him? --Bob --Bob ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2003 19:28:58 EDT From: Murphycopy@aol.com Subject: Re: Lakota, the story behind the song Lama writes: << Who else could put her own bare butt on an album and then criticize the next generation for their bare midriffs on MTV? >> I knew I couldn't go on agreeing with you forever, Jim! I think the bare butt photo of Joni falls into a sort of "back to the garden" category. Regarding MYV, Joni was reacting to sleeze and general cheapness, in my opinion -- and to the kind of provocative style of dressing that many people think is demeaning to women. --Bob ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 05 Oct 2003 17:48:32 -0600 From: Les Irvin Subject: Re: Joni and the other Girls At 10/5/2003 05:04 PM, StephenToogood wrote: >Yes it does amaze me how out of touch Joni is with so much good music. I >mean she grumbles when hers doesn't get much attention. I reread Joni's quote... > Yeah, exactly! Because nobody for a long time has really dared to put back > the anxiety. It's true. I think that's really astute. and got the impression she was responding only to Bill's first statement: > > Fifteen years ago it was perfectly acceptable for a man to sit down and > > sing about the whole range of his emotions. But now it's not. and ignoring this: >Of all the new groups on MTV the one who sounds like the most interesting >person to >me is Aimee Mann of 'Til Tuesday.... I infer nothing from her statement that she even knew who Til Tuesday was! Les, the cynic. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2003 19:58:44 EDT From: RoseMJoy@aol.com Subject: Re: Tracy and Joni and Mariah and Jewel and now Bruuuuuuuce In a message dated 10/5/03 7:21:49 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Murphycopy@aol.com writes: > Women aside, I think someone who is in Joni's league as an overall > "creator" > of music -- i.e., songwriter, composer, musician, vocalist, performer, etc. > -- > is Bruuuuce. (Hi, Rosie.) I was wondering . . . has Joni ever dissed him? > Has > she said anything at all about him? > > I often wondered that myself...... I do not recall any statements Joni has made of Bruce. I do however know that Bruce's wife Patti Scialfa has stated that her musical influences have been The Rolling Stones, Motown, David Bowie, Bob Dylan, Joni Mitchell, Phil Spector and her grandpa, Geromeo Morris. If I ever really get to talk to Bruce, that one question I will ask him is..." hey Brucie, whadda you think of that Joni from Saskatoon?" ;~) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2003 19:59:34 EDT From: AzeemAK@aol.com Subject: Re: Joni and the other Girls In a message dated 06/10/2003 00:49:58 GMT Daylight Time, ljirvin@jmdl.com writes: > I infer nothing from her statement that she even knew who Til Tuesday was! > > Les, the cynic. > I think you're bang on the money, Les!! Azeem in London, who earlier watched Derren Brown play Russian Roulette live on TV... ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 05 Oct 2003 18:29:14 -0600 From: Les Irvin Subject: Re: Tracy and Joni and Mariah and Jewel and now Bruuuuuuuce At 10/5/2003 05:58 PM, RoseMJoy@aol.com wrote: >I do not recall any statements Joni has made of Bruce. Joni actually said something nice about Bruce: Q: Of the biggest artists around now, who would you consider innovators? Springsteen? A: That's folk carpentry. Bruce Springsteen is a very nice craftsperson. (Rolling Stone interview, May 30, 1991: http://www.jmdl.com/articles/view.cfm?id=307 ) The Library search engine is getting good use today! Les, ready for the next question... ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2003 20:38:10 EDT From: RoseMJoy@aol.com Subject: Re: Tracy and Joni and Mariah and Jewel and now Bruuuuuuuce Awe, that is VVS. Thank you Les. I love the way she words that ....nice folk carpentry. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2003 20:42:05 EDT From: Murphycopy@aol.com Subject: Re: Tracy and Joni and Mariah and Jewel and now Bruuuuuuuce Les writes: << Les, ready for the next question... >> Why yes, Les. I have a question. I have just sent a European lister my version of the history of Jewish humor in America. (Or the history of Jewish humor since I've been around, which is for most of American history . . . RIMSHOT!!!) Anyway, I was wondering . . . has Joni ever mentioned any comedians or TV shows or films or anything at all -- in a mass-cultural sort of way -- that make her laugh? Thank you, --Curious in Boston ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2003 20:49:19 EDT From: AzeemAK@aol.com Subject: Re: Tracy and Joni and Mariah and Jewel and now Bruuuuuuuce In a message dated 06/10/2003 01:30:47 GMT Daylight Time, ljirvin@jmdl.com writes: > Joni actually said something nice about Bruce: > > Q: Of the biggest artists around now, who would you consider innovators? > Springsteen? > A: That's folk carpentry. Bruce Springsteen is a very nice craftsperson. > > I find that really patronising - more damning with faint praise! There are very few musicians Joni has given what I would call *real* praise. Bob Dylan, Miles Davis and Laura Nyro spring immediately to mind, though I would hope there'd be others. It's as if someone has to be *as good as her* to be worthy of praise, and anyone who isn't as good as her (ie just about everyone!) isn't worthy of praise. To me, saying that someone isn't quite in Joni's league is praising with faint damnation :-) Azeem in London ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2003 21:04:13 EDT From: BRYAN8847@aol.com Subject: Re: JMDL Digest V2003 #503 - Cynicism, ambition What I think is cynical is that in another interview she says that she likes Norah Jones because she hears no ambition in her voice I think Joni was contrasting Norah's performances to the too "ambitious" (in other words too loud and too emotive) singing that is so popular these days. Anyway, yes it's somewhat arrogant of Joni to dismiss people -- though of course she is correct that they are not her peers. Bryan ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2003 21:10:07 EDT From: BRYAN8847@aol.com Subject: Re: JMDL Digest V2003 #503 >Conversely, Patty Griffin is an incredibly gifted songwriter and singer who >has been "missed" by the masses and has not really been given the >recognition she deserves. Pardon my ignorance, but is Patty Griffin the one (the Patty) who's a remarkable, energetic guitar player? I always get her confused with Patti (sp?) Larkin, and I haven't heard much of either. Bryan ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2003 18:23:26 -0700 From: zenpop@mindspring.com Subject: "Nothing Can Be Done," Girls Gone Wild, "Jungle Line" RULES!.... Steve T wrote: > Subject: Re: "Nothing Can Be Done" > Okay I don't count this one as a dud! O! I agree Steve. Nothing Can Be Done is a priceless pop/rock wonder. I love it. And, lyrically, she creates a sweeping moody feel that goes right to the gut. I consider it, narratively, the bookend to "Car On A Hill," that song's relationship gone south. I remember dating a guy at the time that put me in the exact spot that J. conjures in the song. He was way younger than me, loved headbanger music, we fought like dogs -- but there was still a lot of love and passion there -- and plenty of evenings like the one Nothing Can Be Done evokes -- me feeling the gap in our ages, but not feeling that old myself, listening to his car radio blaring as he drove off, after one of our fights. It's one of her greatest songs, I think, and certainly the last great bit of songwriting from her later year period. That's why it's on Misses, she knew it was that good. - ------ Paul wrote: >> "Tracy Chapman wrote a coupla good songs, but generally speaking >> she's not >> that musically gifted. And Suzanne Vega, well..." > >> LOL she just says it how she sees it (or hears it) I guess! >> Didn't Larry Klein produce one of Tracy Chapman's albums? > > Well actually I think she is being extremely arrogant here. I think so too, Paul. First of all, though -- can someone point me to the entire interview, where those quotes are lifted from? I'd like to read them in context. Chapman's first album was truly brilliant -- one of those freakish pop music moments that comes along rarely (though it wasn't a debut, I consider Mitchell's Blue in the same vein) -- nowadays, the equivalent, I suppose, would be Nora Jones's first effort; but my god, there's no comparison. Nothing against Jones, but, there's not a lot "there" (as a songwriter). As a song interpreter, well, that's a bit wane too -- highly overrated I'd say. Her huge popularity confirms a lot to me about the sad, sorry state of pop music right now, she's so benign, so safe, so wispy and, uhm -- blank -- the listener isn't threatened or challenged or made to feel much in any particular way or direction. Anyway, I'm riffing here, after the series of posts on female songwriters, so bear with me: But back to Chapman...she did disappoint, with the subsequent albums, after the debut -- one or two stellar songs here and there -- but a lot of tire-spinning and self-cocooning. She needed to "get out more," the songwriting started to feel like someone sheltered and surrounded by sycophants and hanger-onners. Bad for songwriting objectivity, I think. Vega has generated good, solid, original music from the get go -- peaking, especially, with her album 99.9 F, which, owning a LOT to her husband, Mitchell Froom, kicks some serious ass -- trenchant songwriting, great tunes, creepy, edgy production...love it. If anyone here missed that one, dig it up -- you'll be surprised. I think J. Mitchell dised Vega because of all the comparisons that were going down at the time -- as a way to throw the whole thing off her back; still, not very gracious or truthful on her part. Aimee Mann's the best working songwriter in pop right now, IMHO -- the equivalent of Elvis Costello in his better years -- though the last album disappointed a bit -- I think she'll get her bearings back. Natalie Merchant's done a lot of fine work over the last decade. The middle section of Ophelia is heartbreakingly sublime -- those four songs in a row: Frozen Charlotte, My Skin, Break Your Heart and King of May -- you're not going to fine better tune craftsmanship than that nowadays. Her last album Motherland -- was gritty, bluesy; an R&B-smudged milestone that was laced with just enough effervescence to harken back to a mid-career 10,000 Maniacs sound. Merchant works the lower register of her voice, sounding matured -- relaxed, more soulful and sexy. Assistant producer T Bone Burnett has couched the songs in a crisp, sparse acoustic blend that draws heavy on American folk, an afterimage of his work on the O Brother, Where Art Thou soundtrack. Ani Difranco drives me out -- of -- my -- fucking -- mind, a state akin to provoking violence. My boyfriend, Alex, loves her -- so I hear a LOT of her -- but I just can't go there. She's grating and heavy-handed and tad self-righteous. I've tried, I really have tried, (when you live with someone who is a fan of such and such, you have to!) to find a groove to appreciate -- but shrillness and music don't mix for me. Speaking of which: Someone mentioned Madonna's Like a Prayer in this list/theme -- that made my day. THANK YOU! No stone's left unturned here. Perfect! I love it. - ------ Suze wrote: > > The Jungle Line was how many years before Simon's Graceland? Hello??? > We are condeming her very genius here! Right on! Suze. That's on the WORST list thing? No waaaaaay. Brilliant, seminal, frightening, sleazy, elegant and spooky. Love it. The drums are almost demonic, in a fabulous way, and the snippet of vocal sounds the drummers are making perfectly mirror the lyrics -- still, thirty years down the "line," I can play that and get an undiluted hit of surprise and appreciation. Frederick (on a moody, misty, autumnal Seattle dusk -- something right of Hejira!) NP: Jeanne Lee and Mal Waldron's After Hours ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2003 23:58:56 -0300 From: "Wally Kairuz" Subject: RE: Tracy and Joni and Mariah and Jewel and now Bruuuuuuuce joni once told wally B to watch judge judy for laughs. does anybody else remember that? wally (K) > -----Mensaje original----- > De: owner-joni@jmdl.com [mailto:owner-joni@jmdl.com]En nombre de > Murphycopy@aol.com > Enviado el: Domingo, 05 de Octubre de 2003 09:42 p.m. > Para: ljirvin@jmdl.com; joni@smoe.org > Asunto: Re: Tracy and Joni and Mariah and Jewel and now Bruuuuuuuce > > > Les writes: > > << Les, ready for the next question... >> > > Why yes, Les. I have a question. > > I have just sent a European lister my version of the history of > Jewish humor > in America. (Or the history of Jewish humor since I've been > around, which is > for most of American history . . . RIMSHOT!!!) Anyway, I was > wondering . . . > has Joni ever mentioned any comedians or TV shows or films or > anything at all -- > in a mass-cultural sort of way -- that make her laugh? > > Thank you, > > --Curious in Boston ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2003 01:45:34 -0400 From: "Lama, Jim L'Hommedieu" Subject: RE: Tracy and Joni and Mariah and Jewel and now Bruuuuuuuce Yes. I don't recall the interview but I distinctly remember reading (not hearing) her say "He shows real songwriting craftsmanship." Something very close to that. Joni "gets" it. She practically called him "old school". Then she said, "The Boss is more like an honorary woman, really," unless I made that up. Lama Rose are you saying that the E Streeters have been touring for 18 months and now they're finished? > From: Murphycopy@aol.com [mailto:Murphycopy@aol.com] > Women aside, I think someone who is in Joni's league as an > overall "creator" > of music -- i.e., songwriter, composer, musician, vocalist, > performer, etc. -- > is Bruuuuce. (Hi, Rosie.) I was wondering . . . has Joni ever > dissed him? Has > she said anything at all about him? ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 06 Oct 2003 02:05:41 -0400 From: ljirvin@jmdl.com Subject: Today's Library Links: October 6 On October 6 the following article was published: 1998: "Joni Mitchell captures perfection with latest" - Hamilton Spectator (Review - Album) http://www.jmdl.com/articles/view.cfm?id=128 ------------------------------ End of onlyJMDL Digest V2003 #313 ********************************* ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she? (http://www.siquomb.com/siquomb.cfm)