From: les@jmdl.com (onlyJMDL Digest) To: onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Subject: onlyJMDL Digest V2003 #311 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/onlyjoni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com Unsubscribe: mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe onlyJMDL Digest Sunday, October 5 2003 Volume 2003 : Number 311 ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Joni cracks me up... [BRYAN8847@aol.com] Re: Joni cracks me up... ["StephenToogood" ] "Lakota", the story behind the song... ["Kate Bennett" ] Re: Open Mike night in Ithaca [PassScribe@aol.com] Re: Duds - long [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: Duds - long [Bobsart48@aol.com] Re: Refuge of the Roads [Bobsart48@aol.com] Re: Refuge of the Roads [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: Refuge of the Roads [Bobsart48@aol.com] Re: Refuge of the Roads [Murphycopy@aol.com] Re: Duds - long [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] re:Lakota ["J.David Sapp" ] Re: Duds - long ["Mark or Travis" ] My trip to Malaysia sjc [=?iso-8859-1?q?Jamie=20Zubairi?= ] Re: duds - long because of some lists [Bobsart48@aol.com] Re: thanks to LAMA [Emiliano ] joni's byt on SNL sketch ["Suze Cameron" ] Today's Library Links: October 5 [ljirvin@jmdl.com] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2003 03:12:12 EDT From: BRYAN8847@aol.com Subject: Joni cracks me up... "Tracy Chapman wrote a coupla good songs, but generally speaking she's not that musically gifted. And Suzanne Vega, well..." Always humble, always diplomatic. This was from an early 90s interview. Bryan ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2003 09:14:51 +0100 From: "StephenToogood" Subject: Re: Joni cracks me up... LOL she just says it how she sees it (or hears it) I guess! Didn't Larry Klein produce one of Tracy Chapman's albums? ************** Steve T amelio@sev47.fsnet.co.uk "Red is autumn green is summer Greens are turning and the sand" - ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Saturday, October 04, 2003 8:12 AM Subject: Joni cracks me up... > "Tracy Chapman wrote a coupla good songs, but generally speaking she's not > that musically gifted. And Suzanne Vega, well..." > > Always humble, always diplomatic. This was from an early 90s interview. > > Bryan ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2003 01:38:05 -0700 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: "Lakota", the story behind the song... "Hey-ya-ho-ho, hey-ya-ho, hey-ya-ho, hey-ya, hey-ya," i know that song, have heard it a lot from the hopi & chumash who i have mingled with throughout my life...tonight i was at a slide show of friends who i used to live with during my 'canyon lady' days & there in several of the slides was the hopi elder who used to visit us...the one i just had written about earlier (thomas banyanca) on the subject of not taking things from the moon... weird syncronicity tonight.. ******************************************** Kate Bennett www.katebennett.com sponsored by Polysonics Discover the Indies at Taylor Guitars: http://www.taylorguitars.com/artists/awp/indies/bennett.html ******************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2003 12:01:18 +0200 From: "mike pritchard" Subject: re: American Indian song subject Stephen wrote: <> Mia added >>Joni is also part Native American Indian... However, Joni admits that she does have Indian blood in her, and this is something that she was taught to deny while growing up. She explains that there was a sort of caste system in Canada, and that everyone who had part Indian blood was taught to deny it.<< Mike asks if anyone can give any further information on Joni's Native American blood/line. Is there objective proof of this? Where exactly does she say this? mike in barcelona ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2003 07:43:02 EDT From: PassScribe@aol.com Subject: Re: Open Mike night in Ithaca In a message dated 10/4/03 3:01:44 AM, les@jmdl.com writes: << From: "Susan E McNamara" Subject: Standing Room Only at Only Joni Open Mike in Ithaca!!! Just thought I would report back on the GREAT turnout we had for the open mike. There were so many people signing up to sing that we had to limit to one song a piece. Unfortunately the sound guy never showed so we couldn't record the event but it was very memorable in any case. Clearly Ithaca loves Joni Mitchell, so we will probably do an Only Joni Open Mike II sometime in the near future. take care, sue >> Sounds GREAT, Sue... if I lived closer I certainly would have been there. Glad it turned out to be a success. Kenny B ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2003 08:19:12 EDT From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: Duds - long per your request, here's my list of Duds > > In order of their release- > > 1. Pirate of Penance: > 2. Roses Blue: > 3. The Tenth World: > 4. Smokin' (Empty, Try Another): > 5. The Tea Leaf Prophecy (Lay Down Your Arms): > 6. Dancin' Clown: > 7. Snakes And Ladders: > 8. Nothing Can Be Done: > 9. No Apologies: > 10. OK, so you got me...I only come up with 9. Of ALL the rest of her stuff , I> enjoy them on some level; musically, > rhythmically, lyrically...but these 9 all swing & miss at all 3 of these > pitches as far as I'm concerned. > > Well, I must admit, this is a strong list of weaker songs. I had a feeling I might get one from you, which is why I singled you out (although I knew Dancin Clown and Tea Leaf would be on this list and would raise my objections). And, I respect that you kept it to 9, via a set of logical criteria. After all, Hejira only needed 9 songs to accomplish its purpose ;~) I have not even made up my own 'bottom 10' yet, but several of these would surely be on it. What I found especially interesting about your reply were the 3 broad criteria you cited - musically, rhymically and lyrically. IMO, 'rhythmically' is part of 'musically', and is one of perhaps a half dozen sub categories that I look for within that category. Also, I think 10th World is good rhtymically (as are Dancin Clown and even Pirate of Penance) - I wonder if you agree upon reconsideration. For me, doing well within one of the various musical categories is not necessarily enough to sustain musical interest for me - except that a stong melody is always enough for me - so I could consider a song a dud even it was good at one of the other categories. Let me list mine melody line harmonies/counterpoint instrumental arrangements rhythm vocal delivery instrumental virtuosity (including rhytm section) engineering/production For me, an intangible - the 'connection' between the music and the lyrics - is my third criterion for 'greatness' (but that is not the issue here, of course). Within the above, I would not throw out Pirate as a dud, because I think it is interesting lyrically as a show tune type of piece (shows off Joni's versatility) and has some interesting and ambitious counterpoint/melody. That said, I would list it in Joni's bottom quartile, and I often skip it when listening to STAS, since it does not fit the rest of the album, and IMO kills the mood of that record. I agree with you that I wish she had left it off. A decent melody is important to me, but not 100% necessary. Examples of how a song can transcend that are all over CMIAR - perhaps the melody line is a line in the sand for you. Note that Joni included The Reoccurring Dream on Misses. One last thought is your inclusion of Nothing Can Be Done. The credit for the music goes solely to Larry Klein (words by Joni). I do not even consider it her composition - if it's a dud, it's their dud, rather than her dud. And, while I agree with you that I find it to be among the dullest offerings (both lyrically and musically) on Joni's recordings, I note that she included it on Misses. Why do you suppose she did that ? Given that she did, I would feel constrained from putting it on my '10 worst' list (recall that I decline to call it my 'duds' list) - even if I felt it were eligible (which I do not) - out of respect for Joni's opinion. More on misses and duds to follow, I hope. Bobsart ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2003 11:16:49 EDT From: Bobsart48@aol.com Subject: Re: Refuge of the Roads Mia wrote > But the best example may be in Refuge of the Roads: > > In a highway service station > Over the month of June > Was a photograph of the earth > Taken coming back from the moon And you couldn't see a city > On that marbled bowling ball > Or a forest or a highway > Or me here least of all > You couldn't see these cold water restrooms > Or this baggage overload > Westbound and rolling taking refuge in the roads > > This passage seems to stress just how insignificant we all are now, when > compared with the magnitude of the cosmos. > > Mia - I well up with affection everytime I read the lyrics to that song (such a great song - the music is a distraction from the lyrics and vice versa, IMO). I just finished the album Hejira in my 'song of the day' project to Leah. I was about to embark on DJRD. However, I had e-mailed her the songs Hejira and Refuge of the Road over 6 months ago, at the very beginning, to give her a sneak peek at the development that took place between STAS and Hejira, which she was about to witness. Now that Leah is a convert, I felt compelled to send these two songs to her again, before we got into DJRD, lest she forget that they were part of Hejira (I did this yesterday). Two of Joni's greatest songs, IMO. Maybe instead of Hits and Misses, it should have been Hits and Masterpieces, with a slightly different lineup for the latter CD. Then, she wouldn't have had to try Travelogue. Bobsart ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2003 11:23:07 EDT From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: Refuge of the Roads > > Hey that's a helluva idea Bob, she could have named it "Missterpieces"! :~) > > Bob > > By "Misster Joni Mitchell" Parfait !!!! :-) Bobsart ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2003 11:40:55 EDT From: Murphycopy@aol.com Subject: Re: Refuge of the Roads Bob Sart wrote to Bob Muller: << By "Misster Joni Mitchell" Parfait !!!! :-) >> Bob Dylan would love it. (And I bet Joni would too.) --Bob, who had no intention of cramming so many Bobs into one post ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2003 11:45:27 EDT From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: Duds - long Subject: re:Lakota Lakota came to life for me on the '88 San Remo Songfest disc. She does an acoustic Lakota that is breathtaking. It allows the lyric to shine and Joni's emotive singing is beyond Joniesque. This is one of my favorite live performances, even tho it is only 5 tunes and Joni has a cold. peace, david ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2003 09:58:49 -0700 From: "Mark or Travis" Subject: Re: Duds - long > 1. Pirate of Penance: The melody is all over the map, and the vocals > are way too busy. (But I'm working on it Mia!) This song has always intrigued me. I see Penance Crane as a woman who is very repressed and presents a very pious face to the world. To her, life is a penance and being around her for long makes anybody else believe that it is too. The dancer is more of a free spirit. I think Joni does an admirable job of delineating two distinct characters. So although it's not on my list of top 10, I do like this song and think it's a good representation of Joni's genius. Definitely not a dud, imo. > 2. Roses Blue: While I like the appropriate haunting quality of the > melody, I find it annoying and the lyrics are so privatized and > mysterious I just shrug them off. Bob, sit down. I agree with you on this one. Although someone did point out the lyric structure here once and it made me appreciate it a bit more. The last word of each verse is the first word of the next. Clever. But I still find this one to be somewhat trite, I think, for the heavy-handed treatment it's given. I don't know if that's really it, but I find it mildly annoying. I would include 'The Fiddle and the Drum' here. Key changes and a capella singing considered, I still find it on the simplistic and ponderous side. > (Now you've got to jump all the way to DJRD to find the next one!) > 3. The Tenth World: Mildly interesting, and a nice segue to > Dreamland, but it drones on & on far too long to keep my interest. I used to feel the same way about The Tenth World. I would always get antsy to have it over with. Now I don't mind it and even find it rather interesting. As you said, it's a good segue to Dreamland. > 4. Smokin' (Empty, Try Another): Suffers from the exact opposite, too > short, imo...I love Larry's bass throw-ins and would have loved to > see where this could have gone with further explorlation; Bass, > sampled Cig machine, and Joni's vocal. But as it's released, it's > non-addictive. It's a throwaway, something cooked up on the spur of the moment. As such it works just fine on that level and is just the right length. My opinion, anyway. > 5. The Tea Leaf Prophecy (Lay Down Your Arms): No worthwhile melodic > structure (try and sing it acapella from memory and you'll see what I > mean), and unless you know the story about how her parents met it's > also too elusive lyrically, but I'll admit that if you do know the > story it's an interesting juxtaposition of telling the story > intertwined with anti-war stuff. See I don't think you have to know the 'back story' to this one. I think it's pretty self explanatory. And I really like the way 'study war no more' rolls around in the background. WWII affected the lives of a vast number of people on this planet. It threw these people together. They married, had a child, had doubts about the future, all due in part to the war. But like most humans, they carry on. I like this song and think it's one of the better ones on CMIARS which, I admit, is probably my least played Joni album. But not a bad record. I still maintain she's never made a bad album. > 6. Dancin' Clown: 'Nuff said - a turkey. Others have said it. It's just a bit of fun. I think it's very clever and works very well. Not a dud to my ears. > 7. Snakes And Ladders: Lacks interesting melody, there's no vocal > chemistry between her & Henley, the cliched 'storyline' is > unaffecting. Here's another one that I think is a bit of Joni brilliance. I love the interplay of the vocals and the way the thing moves. I think it's a great arrangement of a darn good song. Another highpoint of CMIARS for me. > 8. Nothing Can Be Done: See above (her songwriting style doesn't mesh > well > with Klein's, even she admits it). This is just one example. Not the most interesting melody or arrangement, I admit. But I really like the lyrics on this one. For someone looking at 50 next April, this song definitely strikes a chord. 'I am not old/I'm told/But I am not young/Oh and nothing can be done'. Yeah. > 9. No Apologies: Lyrically too unfocused, and dull musically as well. > Again, they lyrics suffer from being too privatized...Juan? Freddie? > who? A song shouldn't need a decoder ring to appreciate. Already posted about this one. I don't think it matters who Freddy or Juan are. The point is that Juan is a petty little tyrant, that bigger beasts abound and they kick this world around. Like school yard bullies. (of course I'm not counting BSN & T'log which have more duds > than a milk duds box) Dont' go there, Bob! Don't get me started! ;-) Mark ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2003 18:00:41 +0100 (BST) From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Jamie=20Zubairi?= Subject: My trip to Malaysia sjc Hi jmdlers! I recently went back to Malaysia so see my brother who lives on an island as a scuba instructor (the lucky bugger!). It was a very nostalgic trip as I hadn't seen Adam for nearly a year (he left his job in London to do this) and I hadn't been back to Malaysia for 4 years. Just before I went over he sent me a message saying 'make sure you bring your guitar!' and I said to him 'Are you sure? All I will/can play is Joni Mitchell!'. In my panic I quickly learned a few songs that can be played in open tuning (Sade's By Your Side' being one of them). On various nights on the beach I would just bring my guitar out to strum to myself and imagine the caves of Matala behind me andthe moon in front of me and the wind from Africa, not the Malay mainland. Well, as it seems, Joni is not unknown in those parts. Of course BYT got the most applause as the Counting Crow's version was played every 5 minutes on the radio in Malaysia.People could sing along to Both Sides Now which was nice. I also played a couple of unknowns. 'Amelia' which wasa surprise for Adam as it is one of his fovourite songs (he wanted to be a pilot before he started to wear glasses but the line 'swallowed by the sky, or by the sea' retained it's reverberations in his life, as he gets swallowed by the sea every time he dives. He loves that song. Night Ride Home was good as well as the song is set on an island and people seemed to sway a little (but probably to the cheap vodka more than anything else!). And my version of My Secret Place. After I put the guitar down (to drink more cheap beer and smoke more cheap cigarettes - I so need to give up after this holiday!!!) Adam's girlfriend, a German girl called Linda came up to me and said 'I don't know those songs that you sing but I like them, what they talk about, I can recognise. Like that line 'I was born and raised in New York City, I'm just getting used to Colorado'. I know what it means when you sing that.' Well that just made my evening! I mean, a girl who's English is not her first language but can certainly get the subtleties of my humour, and really digs these songs! I think Joni needs to tour with her guitar to the small venues. To my friends. And in my house. Is that so much to ask? ;) Anyway, I'm back now that my skin's turned brown and hopefully will see some of you UK jmdlersin Bedford in November! Much Joni Jamie Zoob - --------------------------------- Want to chat instantly with your online friends? Get the FREE Yahoo!Messenger ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2003 13:39:34 EDT From: Murphycopy@aol.com Subject: 33 years ago -- NIC Janis Joplin died on this date in 1970. (Where are you, Vince? You usually announce this. My job is to cover the third of June!) --Bob ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2003 14:10:17 EDT From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: Duds - long Subject: thanks to LAMA Lama, Thanks so much for posting the Geffen Set liner notes and promoting its purchase. I love reading them. I think between reading Shadows and Light and Joni Companion I recall some of them, no matter, I still love hearing them again. NP:Destiny Rules- Fleetwood Mac Say You Will album ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2003 20:05:47 EDT From: Bobsart48@aol.com Subject: Re: duds - long because of some lists This is the list of those 25 songs dubbed so far as duds by various JMDL'ers (sorry if I missed anyones candidates). 1. "Dancin' Clown" 2. "Lakota" 3. "Ethiopia". 4. "Pirate of Penance" 5. "No Apologies" 6. "Good Friends," 7. "Snakes and Ladders." 8. "Last Chance Lost." .... 9. Lead Balloon 10. Stay In Touch 11. Blue Boy 12. Tax Free 13. Tea Leaf Prophecy 14. Cool Water 15. "The Windfall," 16. Number One 17. Reoccurring Dream 18. Ladies Man 19. "The Jungle Line" 20. "yvette in english" 21. "Underneath The Streetlight" 22. Roses Blue: 23. The Tenth World: 24. Smokin' (Empty, Try Another): 25. Nothing Can Be Done Of these, 13 are from the '80's records and 7 are from the '90's. 3 are from the '60's and only 2 are from the '70's !!!!!. Here's my selection of 10 from these that I might make a CD from that I could listen to and enjoy (arranged in an order that I might prefer, given this motley concoction) - by the way, I think it would make a pretty good record: 1. "Underneath The Streetlight" 2. Ladies Man 3. Blue Boy 4. "The Jungle Line" 5. Number One 6. "The Windfall," 7. "Dancin' Clown" 8. "yvette in english" 9. "Last Chance Lost." 10. Stay In Touch Then, I would make a mini-record of 5 heavyweight political songs of some merit: 1. "Good Friends" 2. "Lakota" 3. Tea Leaf Prophecy 4. "Ethiopia" 5. Tax Free That leaves my least favorite 10 of this motley bunch (my apologies to Pirate of Penance, but I still cannot find the right mix of Joni songs I would want it in with) - by the way, the list is basically Bob Muller's concoction, minus Dancin Clown and Tea Leaf, plus Cool Water, Reoccurring Dream and Lead Balloon (which I believe Bob overlooked when hunting for a 10th entry on his list). Fine job, indeed, Bob M ! 1. "Pirate of Penance" 2. Roses Blue: 3. Nothing Can Be Done 4. "Snakes and Ladders." 5. The Tenth World: 6. Cool Water 7. Reoccurring Dream 8. Smokin' (Empty, Try Another): 9. Lead Balloon 10. "No Apologies" The themes in this last hypothetical CD are pretty nightmarish, in a macabre way, no ? Perhaps that is why these songs are on this list. Although there are a few songs on this list I am OK with on a stand alone basis (plus two that Joni saw fit to put on Misses !), this is indeed one CD that I would stay away from unless I needed to confront my demons :~0 Bobsart ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 05 Oct 2003 03:13:43 +0200 From: Emiliano Subject: Re: thanks to LAMA Hi, Lama! I too must say: Many many thanks! Every time I read the story about making Lakota... well, I understand her waiting to get out of that studio sessions! ;-) btw: I really love the thread about this song, the moon and the indians! Ride, Crazy Horse, ride! Have a Wonderful time! Emiliano NP: First we take Manhattan, LC at Zurich, 1993 - ----- Mensaje original ----- De: "Janine Sherman" Para: ; Enviado: sabado, 04 de octubre de 2003 21:37 Asunto: thanks to LAMA > Lama, > Thanks so much for posting the Geffen Set liner notes and promoting its > purchase. I love reading them. I think between reading Shadows and Light and > Joni Companion I recall some of them, no matter, I still love hearing them > again. > > NP:Destiny Rules- Fleetwood Mac > Say You Will album ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 05 Oct 2003 01:03:42 -0400 From: "Suze Cameron" Subject: joni's byt on SNL sketch Had to watch SNL tonight, new season, John Mayer musical guest, etc. Then, as a bonus, in the final sketch about telemarketers making their last calls ever, Jack Black and the "marketeers" break into BYT. Good show, Jack Black has Belushi like chemistry. Mayer played two songs. btw, wonder if Joni was ever approached about being a musical guest. they sure have had every other music icon appear. Suze, n.w. Jerry Springer, because I can't reach the remote! ____________________________________________________________ Get advanced SPAM filtering on Webmail or POP Mail ... Get Lycos Mail! http://login.mail.lycos.com/r/referral?aid=27005 ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 05 Oct 2003 02:19:23 -0400 From: ljirvin@jmdl.com Subject: Today's Library Links: October 5 On October 5 the following articles were published: 1998: "Taming the Tiger" - People (Review - Album) http://www.jmdl.com/articles/view.cfm?id=241 2002: "This is Yorkville's last stand" - Toronto Star (Mention) http://www.jmdl.com/articles/view.cfm?id=934 ------------------------------ End of onlyJMDL Digest V2003 #311 ********************************* ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she? (http://www.siquomb.com/siquomb.cfm)