From: les@jmdl.com (onlyJMDL Digest) To: onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Subject: onlyJMDL Digest V2003 #306 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/onlyjoni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com Unsubscribe: mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe onlyJMDL Digest Tuesday, September 30 2003 Volume 2003 : Number 306 ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: Hey y'all - newbie here ["Dylan Rush" ] Joni's Birthday Bash in the UK [steph@cix.co.uk (Anita Gabrielle Tedder)] rate your music ["mack watson-bush" ] Re: Dylan and Joni sittin in a tree [Bobsart48@aol.com] Re: "Shades of Scarlett..." continued... [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Test Your Joni IQ!! Answers [Susan McNamara ] Re: Hey y'all - newbie here [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: "Shades of Scarlett..." continued...(Actually Hissing) [Steve Polifka] RE: "Shades of Scarlett..." continued... (long) ["Richard Flynn" ] Re: "Shades of Scarlett..." continued... ["Lama, Jim L'Hommedieu" ] Tuesday: mammoth post --life after DJRD ... horoscope ... kvetching [zenp] Re: Test Your Joni IQ!! Answers [Murphycopy@aol.com] Re: "Shades of Scarlett..." continued... ["Lori Fye" ] Re: Test Your Joni IQ!! Answers [lfye@cresapartners.com] off topic - message for Bob ["vernon parker" ] Re: Test Your Joni IQ!! Answers [Susan McNamara ] Re: Test Your Joni IQ!! Answers [Murphycopy@aol.com] RE: Test your Joni IQ answers [MINGSDANCE@aol.com] Coyote: Man and Animal [Murphycopy@aol.com] Re: JMDL Digest V2003 #493 [HOOPSJOHN1@aol.com] Re: Hey y'all - newbie here ["Dylan Rush" ] Re: Re: "Shades of Scarlett..." continued... [] "Name That Tune", part1; 100% JC ["Lama, Jim L'Hommedieu" ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 17:26:28 +1000 From: "Dylan Rush" Subject: Re: Hey y'all - newbie here >Hello Dylan, > > I'm Marja from california and sixteen and play guitar (amongst other >things) and I love Blue. >So, what's some of your favorite joni stuff? > >always, marja Hey Marja, Good to see another young'un into Joni! "Blue" I adore, and it's amazing how well that album did commercially for the depressing, melancholy, soul-laid-bare thing that it is. I love playing songs from it on guitar - the intro to "A Case of You" especially. Have you experimented with Joni's use of alternate tunings? It's good fun, but be prepared to break many a string! I got into Joni through her jazzy stuff and I'm really more fond of that period, though - Don Juan's Reckless Daughter is amazing, the first disc especially. Then of course you've got Hejira, Hissing, Mingus, etc. all some of the greatest things ever put to record. _________________________________________________________________ Chat via SMS. Simply send 'CHAT' to 1889918. More info at http://ninemsn.com.au/mobilemania/MoChat.asp?blipid=6800 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 09:25 +0100 (BST) From: steph@cix.co.uk (Anita Gabrielle Tedder) Subject: Joni's Birthday Bash in the UK Dear Friends Just to let you know that the details for Joni's birthday party celebration on Saturday afternoon (November 8th)over here in the UK are now posted on my web site www.anitagabrielle.com If anyone has any more queries, please contact me. The invitation is to come as a Joni look-a-like or your favourite Joni song. A friend of mine has said he's going to come as a 5 metre square bright green lawn and hiss at everyone. Can't wait to see that........... Love Anita ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 06:05:12 -0500 From: "mack watson-bush" Subject: rate your music Has anyone else found 'rate your music?' A fun website where one is able to rate albums. I don't know how they come upon their ratings that are listed on the main page but charles mingus' album 'the black saint and the sinner lady' is rated number one. Dear Joan is at number 14 with 'Blue.' mack np: Daryl Hall-Can't Stop Dreaming. (Thank you, thank you, thank you Sherelle Smith) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 08:36:04 EDT From: Bobsart48@aol.com Subject: Re: Dylan and Joni sittin in a tree Dylan wrote: > Just like to introduce myself to you lot - My name is Dylan, I am 13, live > in Australia and have the entire Joni back catalogue on vinyl. I adore her > music, play guitar and very rarely listen to anything but Joni. I look > forward to meeting you all. Dylan - er, how can I say this - I think you've come to the right place. Welcome aboard to the 13 year old with the best taste down under. Bobsart (from New Jersey USA) By the way, this 'exclusivity tendency' of yours is not a unique syndrome around here, as witness my recent post and Steve Toogood's reply: Bob wrote: > What I'm saying is not just that I'm spoiled. I'm saying Joni sort of ruined > listening to popular music for me. Darn her. Her work is just so superior. Oh I so know what you mean Bob! Anything I listen to now I totally pick apart and when I do like something it rarely stands the test of time like Joni's material. Of course there are some and when there is it's a nice surprise. - Steve T PPS - This weekend I took an overdose of Emmylou therapy to see if I could do something about this 'problem'. I let you know if it's working a month from now. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 08:53:42 -0400 From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: "Shades of Scarlett..." continued... > Anyway, thanks for your thoughts on the song Bob -- you've given me a > new way to consider it; You're quite welcome...and I know what you mean...thanks to this group I've been able to reconsider many opinions I had on these songs, or form some on songs about which I was totally clueless. Truth be told, it's my favorite activity on the list. > Though my sense still rings strong that there's a larger, more > impersonal commentary going down about the whole Southern female > "phenomena" and mindset -- which, despite cliches, Mitchell > circled so > tightly in the song. And this line indicates that she is not in fact a part of the film business but merely a voyeur like the rest of us: "Mimicking tenderness she sees In sentimental movies" Like I said yesterday, we haven't discussed this song much, so a lot of this is just thinking out loud...there is a real parallel between "Scarlett" & "Harry's House", both involve women trapped in some kind of a fantasy that's SUPPOSED to grant them happiness & fulfillment, one in modern suburbia, one as a "Magnolia", a southern belle. Living in the southeast US now for the past 35 years, I definitely have seen many Scarletts. I think this line: "She covers her eyes in the x-rated scenes Running from the reels" Is indicative of how Southern women deny their sexuality. This one: "With her impossibly gentle hands And her blood-red fingernails" (Elvis' favorite) Deals with the fact that Southern aristocratic women would have maids to do their dirty work, hence their hands would be soft & gentle, their nails painted & lovely. (And if they didn't have a maid and had to do that work themselves, they would try to disguise it) So that brings us back to the 'stolen clothes'...they could be literally stolen from a shop, I suppose, a kleptomaniacal thing, theft to substitute for love or satisfaction. Maybe she dreams of owning/wearing those 'belle-of-the-ball' sweeping ballroom gowns but can't afford them. Maybe she borrowed the clothes from a neighbor, or maybe she bought them at a thrift shop. (Southern Junior Leaguers, the "precious ladies" as my wife calls them, run second-hand thrift shops where they sell their old fashions). Maybe that's where she stole them from? Anyway, it's fun to talk about, even if I'm a million miles away from what Joni had in mind. How wonderful to be able to write in such a beautiful blur that gives people the opportunity to try and bring it into focus, or simply to make an interpretation that applies to them personally. Bob NP: Ani Difranco, "The Poet Game" ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 09:15:16 -0400 From: Susan McNamara Subject: Test Your Joni IQ!! Answers Hi Gang: Someone asked if I could post the answers to this quiz: At 9:02 AM -0400 9/30/03, Susan McNamara wrote: >Question #1 >Joni is known as a confessional songwriter. One >of the best examples of this is the song Little >Green. What is this song about and what event >in the recent past brought the subject of the >song full circle? > >Joni lyric hint: "So you sign all the papers in >the family name, you're sad and you're sorry but >you're not ashamed of Little Green, have a happy >ending." ANSWER: Song is about Joni giving her daughter up for adoption, then in 1997 through an email to the jonimitchell.com website Kilauren Gibb discovered that Joni was her mother and they reunited. waaahh... At 9:02 AM -0400 9/30/03, Susan McNamara wrote: >Question #2 >An interviewer asked this Rock God who he >thought were some of the best women songwriters >in Rock and Roll? He answered that he didn't >know of any. When the interviewer asked >incredulously, "What about Joni Mitchell?" he >answered, "Joni Mitchell is a man." Who made >this notorious quote? > >Joni lyric hint: "Coyote was jumping straight >up and making passes, He had those same eyes >just like yours, Under your dark glasses" ANSWER: Bob Dylan the man who can outrage and thrill in one sentence. :-) At 9:02 AM -0400 9/30/03, Susan McNamara wrote: >Question #3 >What hard living, gun-toting Rocker produced >Joni's first album? He is also known for the >quote: "Joni Mitchell is as modest as Mussolini!" > >Joni lyric hint: "The taste of the spray he >takes, And he learns to give, He aches and he >learns to live , He stakes all his silver ... >On a promise to be free" Answer: David Crosby At 9:02 AM -0400 9/30/03, Susan McNamara wrote: >Question #4 >Who was one of Joni's big Studio 54 dancing >buddies who also sang backup on the album Don >Juan's Reckless Daughter? > >Joni lyric hint: "Betsy's blue she says, "Tell me something good!" Answer: Chaka Khan...Chaka Khan At 9:02 AM -0400 9/30/03, Susan McNamara wrote: >Question #5 >The Bold Joni has had a vast array of >interesting lovers. On Wild Things Run Fast, >four men who were former lovers and a roommate >appear on the song "Man to Man." Who were they? > >Joni lyric hint: "How come I keep movin from Man to Man to Man ?" Answer: James Taylor on guitar and background vocals, John Guerin on Drums, Larry Klein on bass and David Geffen signing checks somewhere. At 9:02 AM -0400 9/30/03, Susan McNamara wrote: >Question #6 >On her birthday in 1998, Joni attended a >performance by John Kelly and after the show >presented him with one of her dulcimers. What >genre does John Kelly perform? > >Joni lyric hint: " they paved paradise and put up a parking lot " Answer: John Kelly is a performance artist/female impersonator whose show "Paved Paradise" featured himself as Joni Mitchell and his piano player as Georgia O'Keeffe. - -- "Heart and humor and humility will lighten up your heavy load ... " - Joni Mitchell ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 09:19:38 -0400 From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: Hey y'all - newbie here > "what sort of funny lady would have a Greatest Misses album?". Yep, that's our Joni in a nutshell! > I never got round to listening to any of her stuff until hearing the Maire > Brennan (Enya's sister) new age cover of Big Yellow Taxi last year. So, yet another Joni fan who enters by way of COVERS! ;~) > I got hooked on "God Must Be A > Boogie Man", to date my favourite Joni song, because of the strange feel of > it all - the emptiness, the choir, the guitar, Jaco's bass. Wow, that would be bizarre to have "Mingus" as an intro to Joni. For a lot of fans, Mingus was the point where they parted company with her. I didn't really get it at first myself, but that was only because I hadn't matured musically. Needless to say you are way ahead of me! > I must've played "Coyote" a million times. Given the theme of that LP, and the feel of the songs, I can't imagine a better opener - it just instantly puts you on the road with its bouncy playful feel. And ROTR makes for the perfect closer too. And everything in between - equally perfect! > (I have > Shadows and Light on VHS, too... what did we all think of that video? It was > good, but it certaintly wasn't what I expected.) What were you expecting? For me it was great, because it assimilated the Mingus stuff that I wasn't fully appreciating at the time with the stuff that I absolutely loved, and interpreted it through some of the finest musicians that have ever come together, including Michael Brecker who doesn't get the credit he deserves imo. I like that the movie includes Jaco's solo which the LP omitted, and that haunting "Woodstock" at the end is the creme de la creme! Now I could do without some of the mildly pretentious movie bits, but it does help to break up the straight concert footage. > In fairness, though, the only bad > songs she ever made were recorded during the Geffen period - the corny > "Dancin' Clown" and the preachy, excruciating "Lakota" and "Ethiopia". I like the latter two fairly well. On Rachel Z's wonderful Joni tribute to Joni from last year, she presents an impressive long interpretation of Lakota where she really examines the melody and rhythms of this song. Those who have overlooked Rachel Z's CD need to check it out. Besides, she has a couple of other bad songs out there..."Pirate of Penance" from her debut is pretty much of a dud, and "No Apologies" from TTT is preachier than Lakota and Ethiopia, and offers even less melodic interest. > Does anyone know what Cherokee Louise and The Windfall are > about? Cherokee Louise is about her childhood friend Mary Waddington, a foster child. I'm guessing she's also the Louise in the push-up brassiere, but I don't know about that. > Also, I'm getting into Prince these days - any Prince fans in the house? I'm > going to his Sydney concert in three weeks time... Has > anyone heard his > cover of "A Case of U"? Our collection of covers has 2 different versions of this, which of course his purple majesty has titled "A Case of U", one from a live video from '83, the other a beautiful solo piano recording he made in the studio not too long ago. As for me being a Prince fan, I picked up on him way back when "Dirty Mind" came out. His songs have such a delicious groove to them, and he's not afraid to declare his rampant sexuality right alongside his deep spirituality which I find particularly refreshing. He is of course a humongo Joni fan, throwing in a number of references to her and her music along the way. I haven't followed him every step of the way, but a new Prince project always gets my attention and he's put out quite a few albums that didn't get the attention they deserved, simply because they were the wrong thing at the wrong time, a "crime" that Joni has been guilty of too, much like anyone who follows a muse rather than a business plan. Bob NP:Robin Lee Berry, "Hey Baby Hey" ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 08:21:10 -0500 From: Steve Polifka Subject: Re: "Shades of Scarlett..." continued...(Actually Hissing) Hey all, At Joni's Jazz in NYC in '99, Chaka Khan started to tell the story behind the song Hissing of Summer Lawns, which she was about to perform. So she's rapping with Joni who is sitting in one of the front rows to the right. and she said something like: "Remember Joni? When you went to Jose Feliciano's house?" and Joni stood up and sushed her and I thought, damn, just when we were about to get the dirt! Steve At 07:16 PM 9/29/2003 -0700, zenpop@mindspring.com wrote: >Bob replied re: SOSC and HOSL... > >> Given that the title song is based on Jose Feliciano, I'm tempted to >> believe that SOSC is also a portrait of somebody specific, obviously >> someone tied to the film industry with all the cinematic references. > >That's interesting and makes me chuckle, because, during the 70s, when >I lived in LA, I was friends with Patsy Webb, the songwriter Jimmy >Webb's wife (at the time). Consensus in that household was that the >song was written about her/them (!). Though, Feliciano makes more >sense, I suppose -- "latin drum" and all. What was certain, and >gossiped about from time to time was the infamous playback party, which >the Webbs were present for -- where Dylan caught some zzzzs through the >master tape of CAS. Now THAT'S a scene from a movie. Last I spoke with >Patsy she was writing a book -- no doubt that event will be recounted >(again). > >Anyway, thanks for your thoughts on the song Bob -- you've given me a >new way to consider it; this I found particularly interesting: > >>> "Dressed in stolen clothes she stands..." >> >> I take this to mean she's wearing a costume or clothing from one of the >> films she was in...like she's trying to re-capture the glory of that >> time, perhaps "A woman must have everything" was a famous line from >> that >> same film, so she dresses in the costume, walks through the scenes, and >> repeats the script in an attempt to remind herself of her former fame. > >That's probably THE most cryptic line in the whole song ("..stolen >clothes...", to me. > >Though my sense still rings strong that there's a larger, more >impersonal commentary going down about the whole Southern female >"phenomena" and mindset -- which, despite cliches, Mitchell circled so >tightly in the song. > >> >> NP: Billy Preston, "Outaspace" > >I love this, now playing thing -- and must, here on out copy ;-) > >NP: On The Alamo -- (from Benny Goodman Sextet featuring Charlie >Christian.) > >Cheers, > >Frederick ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 09:59:45 -0400 From: "Richard Flynn" Subject: RE: "Shades of Scarlett..." continued... (long) Do you think that one of the virtues of HOSL is the way that Joni presents what may well be cultural stereotypes only in order to complicate them--I'm thinking of "Shades of Scarlett, but also "Edith & the Kingpin," the title track, "Harry's House"--which to my mind is more effective with "Centerpiece" interpolated than without it. (Though I love those stripped down demos, thanks Bob.) Sonically, it's 3 dimensional (in its fully produced state), but it seemed a bit thin lyrically to me back when it came out. I don't feel this way now. Digression: Where is the group of southern women to sing "Hope Joni Mitchell will remember / Southern Belle don't need her around / Anyhow"? Seriously, the protagonist of "Shades" sometimes strikes me as stereotyped and thinly realized. Until I notice that HOSL is a kind of portrait gallery that builds toward its ulitmate quasi-transcendent moment (I say "quasi" because "Shadows and Light" refuses transcendence except as expressed materially in the work of art.) There's a lot of self-criticism and self-awareness in Hissing that complicates rather than validates what might be taken to be condescension toward the characters. That is, it ultimately isn't condescension. Joni recognizes something of herself in Scarlett--she too has sometimes bought into "all those vain promises on beauty jars." When I first bought this lp on the day of its release in 1975, I immediately liked its sound and seriousness better than Court and Spark (which I also loved). I took it over to the house of a girl (woman?--we were 20). After we listened to it we got in an argument about it--she violently criticizing & I defending it as "way better than 'Court and Spark.'" And that was our last date. Richard still formulating thoughts on Mingus np Blonde on Blonde--the sonically improved edition ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 12:10:21 -0400 From: "Bree Mcdonough" Subject: Re: Hey y'all - newbie here Hi Dylan! Did your parents name you after Bob .DYLAN? So you started appreciating Joni when you were twelve..this amazes me!! Any chance that you would be able to come to the fest next year? I'd love to meet you. So glad you are here...chime in often. Now here is where we part..below you wrote THE EXCRUCIATING ETHIOPIA. I think Joni was able to through this song really make you feel the plight.. not ONLY of the Ethiopians but any people or individuals that are less fortunate. I think Joni was just so sickened by the TV preachers exploiting their plight, the misery.. for their OWN gain..... that she felt compelled to write this. Give it another listen...hopefully you will hear it in a new light? Bree >old school fans to dig. In fairness, though, the only bad songs she ever >made were recorded during the Geffen period - the corny "Dancin' Clown" and >the preachy, excruciating "Lakota" and "Ethiopia". _________________________________________________________________ >Get less junk mail with ninemsn Premium. Click here >http://ninemsn.com.au/premium/landing.asp _________________________________________________________________ Get MSN 8 Dial-up Internet Service FREE for one month. Limited time offer-- sign up now! http://join.msn.com/?page=dept/dialup ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 12:28:06 -0400 From: "Lama, Jim L'Hommedieu" Subject: Re: DJRD Hi Bill, Yeah, I agree it looks like she had jt in mind but I don't think it's actually about him if you know what I mean. As in so much of DJRD, she's talking about the hugeness of modern life, like how a stringbean from Carolina can get swept up into hero worship. He's an example of what she's talking about but it's not about him. What I mean is, "Pack your suspenders / I'll come meet your plane." Now that is *ABOUT* jt. It's a straightforward portrait. In "Shades Of Scarlett Conquering", she's using examples from the book/film "Gone With The Wind" to illustrate a woman of heart and mind. She's not saying, "Scartlett did this / scarlett did that / after a while life's an old hat." It's not retelling the story of Scarlett. She's calling on Scarlett to say something else. One more example? In the song "Refuge Of The Roads", she's talking about escape and jt pops up again: "I fell in with some drifters Cast upon a beachtown Winn Dixie cold cut [theives] and highway hand me downs. I wound up fixing dinner for them and Boston Jim. I well up with affection Thinking back down the roads to then." The word theives isn't in the copywritten version but I know I've heard it and it points at The Band. Anyway, the song's about the Road and although he's a stop, he's not the road. This is "Metaphor in Literature-301". As I've said before, a campfire is about fellowship and not about flames. Lama "Bill Branyon" > DJRD I believe is about James Taylor. I.e. - "And a > 'country road' came off the wall, and swooped down on > the crowd at the bar." and "Restless sweeps like 'fire > and rain' over virgin wilderness. Prowls like hookers > and theives through bolt-locked tenements. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 12:52:57 -0400 From: "Lama, Jim L'Hommedieu" Subject: Re: "Shades of Scarlett..." continued... After the fall of Atlanta in GONE WITH THE WIND, Scarlett's wealth is ruined. She's planning on welcoming what's-his-name Brett? but she doesn't have her nice clothes anymore. She's been picking cotton. She pulled the velvet curtains down and had her housekeeper make a dress from it. Scarlett's wearing a fake. It's overstatement to call them "stolen clothes" but that's what it means to me. > That's probably THE most cryptic line in the whole > song ("..stolen > clothes...", to me. She's been humbled but her resolve is unshaken. Joni said, > She stands > cast-iron and frail I doubt that Joni knew this but cast-iron is hard but brittle. If you hit a cast-iron stove with a sledge hammer it will crack. > With her impossibly gentle hands > and her blood-red fingernails She's wandered beyond the story here cause she had such a great visual image. In the book, Rhett catches Scarlett because she has the rough hands of a cotton-picker. In Joni's lyric, her hands are soft and sweet but they carry the color of grisly resolve. This is a fine example of Joni's duality (paradox, contradiction) and the fact that she give you "a visual" to carry around makes it even more..... world-class. Lama I noticed last night that in "JungleLand" Springsteen refers to his characters indirectly: > travleled down from Angola (a city in New York state) > chasing the Rat and the barefoot girl. This reminded me of Dylan's "Black Diamond Bay" where the panama hat keeps popping up. I think maybe Bruce nicked this device. Later, in one of the Wilbury albums, Dylan made a nod to the Boss: > They knew they'd find freedom just across the Jersey line > so they hopped into a stolen car > took highway 99. > It was [out on Thunder Road] > Tweeter at the wheel..." ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 13:00:50 -0400 From: "Lama, Jim L'Hommedieu" Subject: Re: Hey y'all - newbie here I agree! I like the way you write. Most people do not understand how she can switch from one set of tools to another but you hit it exactly. >>>>> I love the Geffen recordings, and don't know why they're bagged out so much. Wild Things Run Fast is good fun and her usual standard of beautiful songwriting. Dog Eat Dog is a brilliant album, and shows her willingness to experiment with the technology of the era. Her songwriting has always been five-star, no matter what technology she uses. >>>>> You really *get* this stuff. Shine on, you crazy diamond. BTW, On the S&L video, I especially like "Dry Cleaners From Des Moines". I think Jaco sped up the tempo at the end and shoved the whole band to keep up. I think it rocks. Hell, I think it SMOKES. Lama ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 10:55:41 -0700 From: zenpop@mindspring.com Subject: Tuesday: mammoth post --life after DJRD ... horoscope ... kvetching 1. Hi Dylan! Big welcome to the list (from someone who was just hailed last week). I thoroughly enjoyed your recounting of discovering Joni -- and then your subsequent sonic discoveries thereafter. Especially making an "entry" via Mingus! Wow! that's a mindbender...Fascinating, too, that you enjoy the Geffen recordings -- and I couldn't help but wonder if not having followed a chronological thread, as most of us "old timers" have, in experiencing Joni's musical art, shaped your response to the Geffen material? Meaning, you'd uninfluenced ears and weren't influenced by (what I call) her mid-career brilliance. Speaking of which: 2. Someone mentioned the other day (one of the other threads, shit I can't remember which now, so I'm paraphrasing...), how DJRD was a kind of pinnacle disc, with everything post being sub-quality, until NRH. Something like that. Those are my sentiments, too -- with Mingus held in abeyance in my head -- a kind of wildcard (in a bardo, if you will). I've always considered the live disc, Shadows and Light, to be a sonic portrait of a career entering crisis/meltdown mode -- it feels slightly contrived and very manic (like everyone was on cocaine), overly striving; ultimately misguided -- with smatterings of genius and fine musicianship intermixed -- but in the end: a mess; a sad portent. And then (cue screeching violins from the shower scene in Psycho): the "Geffen Years" -- those consistent disasters. I've often contemplated, in genuine wonder, how the same artist who composed the song Blue could also write something as horrifyingly bad as, say, Dancin' Clown or The Reoccuring Dream -- without anyone in her circle pulling her aside and saying, "No, NO, NO!!!!!!!!!!" On one hand I applaud (well, I need two hands for that actually) Mitchell for bucking fans and critics and continuing to chase her muse via her own experiments and style shifts and technological toolings, but then, on the other hand, I have to acknowledge my reactions to those efforts -- and admit, for me, my heart sank with each subsequent release. BSN and Travelouge have fine -- beautiful moments -- but ultimately baffle and dishearten, too. The disappointment is actually related to comparing, say, those two projects with contemporary offerings from an artist like like Emmylou Harris (which isn't fair, I know -- and is an "apples and oranges" thing). I played Harris's new disc the other day and was drop jaw with how cohesive and surprising it is -- ranking as one of the most powerful discs of her career. She is pushing hard on the edges of her country "genre," and creating something fresh and untried, a wonderful extension from the Wrecking Ball disc, which, as another example, was shocking and magnificent. Harris is willing to work with others, allowing instincts to intermingle (ala Daniel Lanois). Joni, I think, could have benefited from this kind of partnering/alchemy -- instead the Geffens and BSN and Travelouge all feel solipsistic, bloated -- in need of editing and the sort of objectivity born of camaraderie and fearless feedback. 3. Richard. LOVED your ruminations on HOSL. And the image of breaking up with your girlfriend, after arguing its virtues, is priceless -- that brought a smile to my face. I recall the same sort of heated debates and fractures after Hejira was released. THAT one just pushed people over the edge in my circle, "There aren't any 'real' songs...Where's the chorus?...Where's the piano?...Why is that one song NINE minutes long [SFS]?" 4. On a totally different note. As an astrologer I'm interested in confirming Joni's ascendant. In the recent bio , there's a chapter that opens with Mitchell saying she's a Scorpio, moon in Pisces with Sag rising -- when I read that it felt completely right on. But then I've also heard that her ascendant is Cancer. Anyone know which is which? 5. I'm curious, has the "list" ever considered going into a message board format? I'm finding it difficult to maneuver through the different email responses to topics I receive separate from the list, and then, too responses that are folded into the list itself -- not to mention remembering who I wanted to respond to, after having read something earlier, and then having to go back and rummage through my inbox to find the list missive, that's usually eight feet long, scrolling through that to locate a passage I wanted to address, cutting and pasting hunks of text into the new email, blah blah blah. NOT to sound like the kvetching interloper, or anything ;-) but, "I'm just saying..." It seems a message board would be so much easier to interact with and maneuver. OK, two cents delivered. NP: Miles Davis -- Nefertiti Frederick ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 14:10:57 EDT From: Murphycopy@aol.com Subject: Re: Test Your Joni IQ!! Answers Sue writes: << >Joni lyric hint: "Coyote was jumping straight >up and making passes, He had those same eyes >just like yours, Under your dark glasses" ANSWER: Bob Dylan the man who can outrage and thrill in one sentence. :-) >> I thought this song was about Sam Shepard. Now I am confused. It's obviously about someone Joni had a relationship with, and she seems to like her men, well . . . bathed. So I really don't think this is about Dylan, even if it's not about Shepard. --Bob ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 11:25:06 -0700 From: "Lori Fye" Subject: Re: "Shades of Scarlett..." continued... Jim wrote: > She's been humbled but her resolve is unshaken. > Joni said, > > She stands > > cast-iron and frail > > I doubt that Joni knew this but cast-iron is hard but brittle. Why do you think Joni didn't know this? It makes perfect sense to me, given the lyric, that she did indeed know it. Lori ~ http://lrfye.lunarpages.com ~ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 14:55:49 -0400 From: Susan McNamara Subject: Re: Test Your Joni IQ!! Answers Hi Bob! So the question is how many men have been speculated as Coyote: I've heard Dylan, Robbie Robertson, now Sam Shepherd. I guess you could take the list of all the men who were in the Rolling Thunder Revue and shake them up in your hat and pick one. Not that Joni did them all...just that Joni ain't tellin. :-) Most of my Joni Trivia answers can be contested except for the first and the last one. :-) take care, sue >Sue writes: > ><< >Joni lyric hint: "Coyote was jumping straight >>up and making passes, He had those same eyes >>just like yours, Under your dark glasses" > >ANSWER: Bob Dylan the man who can outrage and thrill in one sentence. :-) >> > >I thought this song was about Sam Shepard. Now I am confused. It's obviously >about someone Joni had a relationship with, and she seems to like her men, >well . . . bathed. So I really don't think this >is about Dylan, even if it's not >about Shepard. > > --Bob - -- Susan McNamara Assistant to the Dean of Students Cornell University 401 Willard Straight Hall Ithaca, NY 14853 Voice: (607) 255-1115 FAX: (607) 255-8082 E-Mail:sem8@cornell.edu ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 15:07:58 -0400 From: lfye@cresapartners.com Subject: Re: Test Your Joni IQ!! Answers > I guess you could take the list of all the men who were in the > Rolling Thunder Revue and shake them up in your hat and pick one. Or ... Joni was writing in the "composite" form, where said Coyote was representative of several men. Lori ~ http://lrfye.lunarpages.com ~ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 20:23:28 +0100 From: "vernon parker" Subject: off topic - message for Bob message for Bob (sorry to use up space everyone else) - - think the problem emailing aol addresses may have prevented my reply to your message of 23-9-03 reaching you. If so please let me know and hopefully we can find a way round it. vernon ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 15:38:02 -0400 From: Susan McNamara Subject: Re: Test Your Joni IQ!! Answers That's true too, because Joni never lies. :-) > > I guess you could take the list of all the men who were in the >> Rolling Thunder Revue and shake them up in your hat and pick one. > >Or ... Joni was writing in the "composite" form, where said Coyote >was representative of several men. > >Lori > >~ >http://lrfye.lunarpages.com >~ - -- "Heart and humor and humility will lighten up your heavy load ... " - Joni Mitchell ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 15:42:08 EDT From: Murphycopy@aol.com Subject: Re: Test Your Joni IQ!! Answers Sue writes: << So the question is how many men have been speculated as Coyote: I've heard Dylan >> Maybe I am wrong and don't know enough about Dylan, but the lyrics don't sound like they're describing him (to me). Have a great Joni celebration! Wish I could be there. --Bob ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 16:29:24 EDT From: MINGSDANCE@aol.com Subject: RE: Test your Joni IQ answers ><< >Joni lyric hint: "Coyote was jumping straight >>up and making passes, He had those same eyes >>just like yours, Under your dark glasses" - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ - --------------------------------------------- Then there is also Jack Nickelson who is always in sunglasses, and very flirtatious with everyone, jumps up at basket ball games, and spent a lot of time writing and reading scripts for movies. Also John Gurin is often seen in dark glasses and Hejira and DJRD were written kind of in a pair or continuation. One more for wondering minds:~) Peace Mingus ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 18:00:51 EDT From: Murphycopy@aol.com Subject: Coyote: Man and Animal Ai yi yi yi yi . . . I always thought -- and still do -- that Joni was singing mostly about Coyote, the MAN, but in the following verse, I think she's singing about a coyote, an ANIMAL: I looked *a* coyote (ANIMAL) right in the face On the road to Baljennie near my old home town He (ANIMAL) went running through the whisker wheat Chasing some prize down And a hawk was playing with him (ANIMAL) Coyote (ANIMAL) was jumping straight up and making passes He (ANIMAL) had those same eyes just like yours (MAN) Under your dark glasses (And then she goes back to singing about Coyote the MAN.) The way I've always understood the above verse, Joni came upon a coyote somehow -- perhaps while she was driving, as she does all through "Hejira" -- and is struck by the similarity of the wild animal's eyes and her lover Coyote's eyes. Like with the dreaded "your notches, liberation doll" line, I am 100 percent right and nobody is going to tell me otherwise! (Even if the identity of Coyote is never agreed upon.) --Bob, who has had the Coyote earworm now since August and secretly believes the song is about Michael Paz, who didn't have to get so drunk and lead me on that way ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 19:04:54 EDT From: HOOPSJOHN1@aol.com Subject: Re: JMDL Digest V2003 #493 In a message dated 9/30/03 2:01:10 AM EST, les@jmdl.com writes: << My name is Dylan >> welcome dylan <<"Shades of Scarlett...">> a wonderful image of the drama of becoming and being a lady. give and take, it's all give and take. still what are we willing to give and what will we accept? cast iron and frail "behind my bolt locked dorr the eagle and the serpent are at war in me, the serpent fighting for blind desire, the eagle for clarity" I dunno, kind explains it to me peace ]Noel ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2003 08:59:46 +1000 From: "Dylan Rush" Subject: Re: Hey y'all - newbie here >Hi Dylan! > >Did your parents name you after Bob .DYLAN? I forgot to mention that actually - Yeah, I'm named after Bob Dylan and Dylan Thomas, the poet. I've never actually been a big Dylan fan - I bought that triple album "Masterpieces" on vinyl and never got around to listening to most of it. >So you started appreciating Joni when you were twelve..this amazes me!! >Any chance that you would be able to come to the fest next year? I'd love >to meet you. Oh I'd absolutely love to, I really would, but I live a hemisphere away. :-) >So glad you are here...chime in often. > >Now here is where we part..below you wrote THE EXCRUCIATING ETHIOPIA. I >think Joni was able to through this song really make you feel the plight.. >not ONLY of the Ethiopians but any people or individuals that are less >fortunate. I think Joni was just so sickened by the TV preachers >exploiting their plight, the misery.. for their OWN gain..... that she felt >compelled to write this. Give it another listen...hopefully you will hear >it in a new light? > Yeah, it's a powerful song, but it's just so painful to listen to I can never last through the whole thing. Also a tad on the preachy side. Has anyone noticed that on the LP, Ethiopia takes a LOOOONG time to fade out? Is this to make the point that the plight of the Ethiopians is not going away? In the case of "Lakota", I think the Indian American thing is an issue that is so easy to preach about that a lot of artists jump on the opportunity (i.e. Enigma in "The Cross of Changes"). It kinda sickens me, actually. - - Dylan >Bree > > > >>old school fans to dig. In fairness, though, the only bad songs she ever >>made were recorded during the Geffen period - the corny "Dancin' Clown" >>and the preachy, excruciating "Lakota" and "Ethiopia". > >_________________________________________________________________ >>Get less junk mail with ninemsn Premium. Click here >>http://ninemsn.com.au/premium/landing.asp > _________________________________________________________________ Hot chart ringtones and polyphonics. Go to http://ninemsn.com.au/mobilemania/default.asp ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 19:56:45 -0400 From: Subject: Re: Re: "Shades of Scarlett..." continued... Yes, it does "read" like she knew it. The only reason I know it is cause I dropped out of being an engineer in college. Besides, this is the same woman who described electrician's tape this way, >the masking tape tangles< Maybe she picked something up along the way. :) She got some physics along the way, that's for sure: >we're just particles of change< I'm willing to ask her if you can arrange it. :) All the best, Lama > From: "Lori Fye" > Why do you think Joni didn't know this? It makes perfect sense to me, > given the lyric, that she did indeed know it. >>Lama said >> I doubt that Joni knew this but cast-iron is hard but brittle. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 21:42:47 -0400 From: "Lama, Jim L'Hommedieu" Subject: "Name That Tune", part1; 100% JC The JMDL is supposed to a fun place to discuss the music, life and times of Joni Mitchell and that's okay with me. My real passion is the words. I'll put you all to the test. Match the introductions (in the next few posts) with the song. Below, you'll find the introduction by the author in the liner notes of THE COMPLETE GEFFEN RECORDINGS. I challange you to name that tune... Roberta Joan Anderson-Mitchell-Klein said, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> As the first few lines imply, this was my political awakening, brought on by being robbed by my bank, and by the government of California in spite of Marcel managing my resources. I was robbed by everyone around me who could- all at once. I was a kid with unguarded marbles. During the wonderful years of the Reagan prosperity, greed became fashionable. We had come though the optimism of the '60s, then the apathy of the '70s and finally, the accelerated consumerism of the Decade of Thomas Dolby, my mentor and guiding light during the '80s- hippie, yippie, yuppie. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That's it. Which song is she introducing? Lama PS, I might have taken a few liberties here and there. You'll have to buy THE COMPLETE GEFFEN RECORDINGS to find out where and how many. :) np: Paprika Plains on LP ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 22:07:33 -0400 From: "Lama, Jim L'Hommedieu" Subject: "Name That Tune", part2; 100% JC The JMDL is supposed to a fun place to discuss the music, life and times of Joni Mitchell and that's okay with me. My real passion is the words. I'll put you all to the test. Match the introductions (in the next few posts) with the song. Below, you'll find the introduction by the author in the liner notes of THE COMPLETE GEFFEN RECORDINGS. I challange you to name that tune... Roberta Joan Anderson-Mitchell-Klein said, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Albert Magnoli approached me for a match then asked me to write a song for a scene in a movie he was making, "American Anthem". In the scene, a young couple in a 1988 silver Volvo 245 wagon in average condition is racing up a mountain road against a backdrop of Aspen trees and American Spirit billboards. The director requested the song be upbeat and nestled on a bed of Syndrums and he sang me a hideous Syndrome fill, like a Madonna track before her musical double 'fixes' her parts. I told him, "That's not the way I see the music in this scene and I couldn't possibly give you a drum fill like that, unlike Paz who could fix you up using only a compact Cajon box in a New York minute. Should I do it anyway?" He laughed, he says to me, "You think you're immune? Yes, and while you're at it, take a stab at the title song. Write me an American Tune." "Sorry," I said, "Paul Simon's already taken that title!" "Whatever. Give me an American anthem then." So I wrote a ballad, [song title] for the driving scene and "Number One" for the anthem. We were in England at the time. Klein (my third husband) had just finished playing on Peter Gabriel's album "ZOSO". The album was complete and his s- s- s- studio (Phil Collins joke) was standing empty. Peter offered me a pipe. "I thought you'd never say 'hello'" he said, "you look like the silent type," then he let me use the s-s-s-studio to make my demos. He agreed to sing on [song title]. I didn't approach the duet in the usual way. I wanted it to be like the Song Of Solomon where gender seems to change arbitrarily. I had learned from singing with Jimmy Messina that seemingly different voices give little to no contrast in certain registers and I used that observation here. Both songs were rejected. Of "Number One", the director said, "I asked for an anthem. I don't want the truth!" >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That's it. Which song is she introducing? Lama PS, I might have taken a few liberties here and there. You'll have to buy THE COMPLETE GEFFEN RECORDINGS to find out where and how many. :) np: Paprika Plains on LP ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 22:15:36 -0400 From: "Lama, Jim L'Hommedieu" Subject: "Name That Tune", part3; 100% JC The JMDL is supposed to a fun place to discuss the music, life and times of Joni Mitchell and that's okay with me. My real passion is the words. I'll put you all to the test. Match the introductions (in the next few posts) with the song. Below, you'll find the introduction by the author in the liner notes of THE COMPLETE GEFFEN RECORDINGS. I challenge you to name that tune... At 10:08 PM EDT (GMT-5), page 10 of the booklet let go completely. Stoked on devotion, I press on regardless.... Roberta Joan Anderson-Mitchell-Klein said, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [song title] was a celebration of my relationship with Klein. Years after we split up, he was dating Julie Z. Webb and he said, "Joan-Joan, she wants to be worshipped." So I said, "You think you're immune? Well, worship her for a while and watch her turn on you!" The man/woman thing is SUCH a turkey dance. Take me for instance: right now I'm worshipping this penniless IT geek in the midwest!" >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That's it. Which song is she introducing? Lama PS, I didn't make up the phrase "turkey dance." I checked it twice. I might have taken a few liberties in other places though. You'll have to buy THE COMPLETE GEFFEN RECORDINGS to find out where and how many. :) np: Paprika Plains on LP ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 22:34:15 -0400 From: "Lama, Jim L'Hommedieu" Subject: "Name That Tune", part4; 100% JC This is the one that inspired me to take up this ridiculous series. Roberta Joan Anderson-Mitchell-Klein said, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I usually write my words after I have the music completed and structured. That's generally how I do it and the reason why is because it keeps me away from iambic pentameter. It gives me the challenge of new rhyme schemes. The music then dictates where the rhymes fall and where the ideas climax. In this particular situation, as in "Tax Free" which was Klein's music, I used short phrases. I'm normally a paragraph speaker, a soliloquy speaker. So, for the exercise of "see spot run" or "the cat ran fast"... well, even that's a long sentence... I wrote this for the discipline of saying something in short, fragmented sentences, which is basically what pop writing always was. It was more of an exercise to see if I could do it, to say something in a minimalist way. I failed." >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> WILD THINGS RUN FAST >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> he came she smiled she thought she had him tamed but he was just as wild eating from her hand at last wild things run fast in the dark he could see that trap that was lying in her sweet company "Eating from her hand at last!" wild things run fast ~~winter beat the pines about ~~he heard the heater cutting in and out while ~~she dreamed away... in the night it snowed fast tracks in the powder white leading out to the road winding from her tender grasp wild things run fast >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Lama PS, You probably already figured that I didn't toy with this one. I love this girl. Who else on God's Earth talks like this? "The music then dictates where the rhymes fall and where the ideas climax." She sounds like Yoda or Gollam! "Stories I know! Tell them to you, I will. Yes. Precious stories. Yes." np: Thelonius Monk's BRILLIANT CORNERS on LP ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 22:47:59 -0400 From: "Lama, Jim L'Hommedieu" Subject: "Name That Tune", part5; 100% JC For this song about a fickle lover, Joni replace her original backing singer with a different one. :) How sly is that? The song is "Ladies Man". (Shouldn't it be "Ladies' Man" as it is in the lyric?) Roberta Joan Anderson-Mitchell-Klein said, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I invited Don Henley to come and sing with me on this one. After he left, when I was playing it back, I was amazed at how similar our voices sounded. It took a while to even noticed that a new singer had been introduced. So I went across the hall to where Lionel Richie was recording and I conscripted him. There was the contrast I wanted, so I replaced Don with Lionel. The old cutting room floor routine. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Lama wondering who else would have the chutzpah to cut Henley's contribution to their album... ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 22:55:33 -0400 From: "Lama, Jim L'Hommedieu" Subject: Name That Tune", part6 This one's fun too. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I had an apartment in New York (City). My living room windows looked down on Little Italy- when it was still Little Italy, before it became gentrified Soho. It was near the Holland Tunnel. Great traffic jam chords- impertinent, impatient- like Mingus sometimes, all that brass, ya know- cacophony. I sat at my window expecting a song would go by Underneath The Streetlight. These are some things I saw. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Lama ------------------------------ End of onlyJMDL Digest V2003 #306 ********************************* ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she? (http://www.siquomb.com/siquomb.cfm)