From: les@jmdl.com (onlyJMDL Digest) To: onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Subject: onlyJMDL Digest V2003 #301 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/onlyjoni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com Unsubscribe: mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe onlyJMDL Digest Friday, September 26 2003 Volume 2003 : Number 301 ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: The Geffen Set ["Kate Bennett" ] Re: onlyJMDL Digest V2003 #300 [StDoherty@aol.com] Re: The Geffen Set and box sets generally [AzeemAK@aol.com] Re: Today's Library Links: Les and Joni! [Murphycopy@aol.com] Re: The Geffen Set [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: CMIAR [Bobsart48@aol.com] Re: Doonesbury and Joni and Geffen [Bobsart48@aol.com] Re: Getting THOSL [Bobsart48@aol.com] Re: box set bummer, some random thoughts [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: CMIAR [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: CMIAR ["mack watson-bush" ] Re: box set bummer, some random thoughts ["Victor Johnson" ] Re: The Geffen Set ["Victor Johnson" ] Re: The Geffen Set [notaro@stpt.usf.edu] [none] ["Sherelle Smith" ] Re: The Geffen Set [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] FW: The Geffen Set ["Richard Flynn" ] Re:boxed set bummer [SMC1254@aol.com] RE: boxed set bummer ["Richard Flynn" ] Judgement of the Moon and Stars ["Marianne Rizzo" ] Test Your Joni IQ!! [Susan McNamara ] RE: boxed set bummer ["Kate Bennett" ] Re: JMDL Digest V2003 #486 -- Why the Geffen set??? [BRYAN8847@aol.com] Re: JMDL Digest V2003 #486 -- Why the Geffen set??? [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: Test Your Joni IQ!! [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: box set bummer, some random thoughts [AzeemAK@aol.com] RE: box set bummer, some random thoughts ["Lama, Jim L'Hommedieu" ] Re: boxed set bummer ["Mark or Travis" ] Court And Spark art work (not!) [Frederick Woodruff ] "The Lost Years" by Joni Mitchell ["Lama, Jim L'Hommedieu" Subject: Re: The Geffen Set well i have no interest in getting it...i didn't get bsn either...i did buy t'log however & gave several as christmas gifts cuz i really like it... speaking of christmas & the upcoming holidays, i think this is the reason this box set has been released... call me cynical but its all about $$$$ for this one ******************************************** Kate Bennett www.katebennett.com sponsored by Polysonics Discover the Indies at Taylor Guitars: http://www.taylorguitars.com/artists/awp/indies/bennett.html ******************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2003 07:02:18 EDT From: StDoherty@aol.com Subject: Re: onlyJMDL Digest V2003 #300 In a message dated 9/26/2003 3:01:29 AM Eastern Standard Time, les@jmdl.com writes: i'm truly sorry to feel this way, and i realize it's my own opinion, my own frustration at a great artist offering us pale comparisons of the work she used to make. but, damn, joni--i feel like i'm the kind of fan you say you WANT, the one who craves your newest work, not your old "greatest hits." if you're done with writing music, i understand and accept it (not really!)--enjoy your painting and your newfound life with a grandchild. you've given us so much! but for god's sake, quit it with the occasional bank-breaking re-issues. it feels like a con. - - -- emily, disheartened, in chicago Well put - this box set doesn't seem to really have a point for those of us with the collection already. Though it does have Dog Eat Dog ... love to hear what Joni has to say about that (for the record I'm truly a big fan of DED). ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2003 07:52:00 EDT From: AzeemAK@aol.com Subject: Re: The Geffen Set and box sets generally In a message dated 26/09/2003 08:03:42 GMT Daylight Time, kate@katebennett.com writes: << speaking of christmas &the upcoming holidays, i think this is the reason this box set has been released... >> Who knows? To this Joni-lover, pretty much everything after Taming The Tiger has been inexplicable or unlistenable. There is obviously much that fans would love from the period covered by this box set, like demo versions of the songs from DED, which for my money is the strongets of these four albums song-wise, and the most problematic sonically. Maybe the remastering will address this objection, though it'd be a minor miracle if DED ended up sounding less cluttered with modish synth sounds and extraneous noises. I share Emily's exasperation at the building sequence of releases of old, lavishly-packaged material from Joni. I have bought a number of box sets over the years: a Marvin Gaye one which was a huge missed opportunity, being appallingly sequenced and weighted to some distinctly ordinary early material, to back up the compiler's aim of showing that Marvin was the ultimate ballad singer (a pretty hard claim to support if you've ever heard Got To Give It Up!). Whoever compiles Bob Dylan's box sets has got the right idea: Biograph and the Bootleg Series are absolutely superb, full of unreleased material (that is actually worth hearing) and informative notes. Bob Marley's Songs Of Freedom is also pretty good, with a lot of early material that I'm sure most people buying it will never have heard. Sandy Denny's Who Knows Where The Time Goes could probably have been done better but is so full of beautiful music that you don't really care. I think the best box set I have is David Bowie's Sound & Vision. It is *exquisitely* packaged; the running order is chronological and has been chosen with real thought; and there is a generous smattering of rare stuff, including a few pearls that Bowiephiles would have been searching for for years (in my case, this would be things like the original versions of The Prettiest Star and Wild Eyed Boy From Freecloud, the demo of Space Oddity, the ultra-rare cover of Bruce Springsteen's It's Hard To Be A Saint In The City). Crazily, this set was not given a proper release in this country, if I remember rightly - I'm almost certain I had to order it on import. I had an alternative user name on AOL for a short while, after the collectors edition of Both Sides Now came out: boxsetripoff. Azeem in London NP: Lucinda Williams - World Without Tears. Lucinda raps!! ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2003 08:14:08 EDT From: Murphycopy@aol.com Subject: Re: Today's Library Links: Les and Joni! << On September 26 the following articles were published: 1997: "Pass the Salt, Please" - JMDL (Interview, with photographs) http://www.jmdl.com/articles/view.cfm?id=171 >> If you've never read this article, check it out! Joni meets Les for lunch! Les writes: Meeting Joni was an experience I never dreamed I would have. When I started the Joni Mitchell Discussion List out of sheer necessity nine months earlier it had not even entered my mind that this would have been possible. Yet here I was, about to share a lunch with arguably the greatest singer-songwriter of all time b a woman whose music I had admired and studied for 25 years. I sat at the table across from Joni, joined by two long-time friends of hers. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2003 08:19:46 -0400 From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: The Geffen Set > Why? Because his opinion doesn't happen to agree with > yours? Naw, he's welcome to his opinion, and I'm happy that CMIARS thrills him so. But it's miles away from brilliant, especially when judged on Joni's own scale. Bob NP: Warren Zevon, "Roland The Headless Thompson Gunner" 10/1/82 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2003 08:27:45 EDT From: Bobsart48@aol.com Subject: Re: CMIAR > Their mistake, not mine. Anybody who'd call CMIARS brilliant ain't > real bright. > > No tickee, no shirtee. > > Bob > > ANYBODY ? Would that include JM ? Or, let us say, MOI ? ;-) (Of course, I think almost everything she released as new material was brilliant, as well as some of the 'not new' other stuff). Does that make it among my favorite 50% of Joni's catalogue? No. Is there not even the slightest hint of a nagging doubt that perhaps one who does not recognize the brilliance contained within CMIARS may be missing something ? Here's a suggestion that I proposed to Jenny at the fest. Let's see if some JMDLer's could take it upon themselves to perform an ensemble medley of Lakota and Tea Leaf Prophecy at the next fest, attempting to replicate what Joni did on her recording. Of course, it would take a lot of work from an arranger/conductor, and probably about 8 - 12 performers. But I suspect that if that were done, and done well, that there might be a lot more respect for the work done on CMIARS by those who hold it in low esteem here. Best always (and no offense intended really, Bob M), ' Bobsart ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2003 08:33:52 EDT From: Bobsart48@aol.com Subject: Re: Doonesbury and Joni and Geffen > * See also: > http://www.doonesbury.com/strip/dailydose/index.html?uc_full_date=20020928& > uc_comic=db&uc_daction=X > It's a Doonesbury strip with Joni and Geffen content! (Thanks to Lori!) Just so that you all know, the lead in to that strip came from the day before - - so, when you click on the link, look at the calendar on the bottom and click on 9/27/2002 if you want to see the previous day's strip Bobsart ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2003 08:40:18 EDT From: Bobsart48@aol.com Subject: Re: Getting THOSL Stephen writes: > Keep with it Mack. Took me months to get/like it. It's so unique and > amazing. The tracks that grabbed me first were: 'Harry's House/Centerpiece', > 'The Hissing Of Summer Lawns', 'Edith & The Kingpin' and 'Shades Of Scarlet > Conquering'. I now love them all! Took me 25 years. The only ones that grabbed me at first were the first two - -IFTKOMS and Jungle Line. Now, I especially love THOSL, Edith, Boho and Harry's House. Like Bob M suggested, maybe I'm not too brilliant ;-) (Or maybe I'm brilliant like the tortoise ;-) ) Bobsart ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2003 09:04:12 -0400 From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: box set bummer, some random thoughts > This new box is just another option; no one is being > force-fed here. While that's true, there's a fear on my part that if it doesn't move many units (and don't get me wrong, I hope that it's wildly successful but can't fathom that it will be) then the hopes of getting a REAL boxset will be dashed on the rocks, at least for a LOOOONG time. Also...let's face it, as Emily stated this collection is definitely aimed at US, Joni's loyal & hardcore fans. To be forced to belly up to the tune of $45-55 (or $75 Canadian - YIKES!) for three new tracks (none of which are "new" songs technically) from what MOST fans consider her weakest period, seems a bit exploitative. Additionally... Because Joni is such an emotional artist for us, I think we feel compelled to support her projects, or projects in which she is involved, whether they were her idea or not. (But from what I've been able to discern about Joni's control over her released work it's awfully hard to imagine that she has no power over what the suits choose to do with her recordings). Like going to see the neighbor's kid in the school play, we pretty much know going into it what we're going to get but do it anyway so we can maintain the relationship. This is the kind of project that encourages Kazaa/Grokster etc. users to download rather than purchase. On the other hand, maybe we're not the target for this collection. Like Steely Dan's Citizen Dan (which captured their complete catalog in a 4-cd box & included 2 bonus tracks) maybe they're just trying to woo those who haven't as yet bought these on CD (I'll refrain from using the word 'upgrade' out of respect for the audiophiles). BUT given that they have been out on CD for a while now, I seriously doubt that there are many Joni fans who have been 'on the fence' in regards to Joni's Geffen releases. Bob NP: Warren Zevon, "It Ain't That Pretty At All" 10/1/82 PS: Thanks Jim for your Speechless essay, I enjoyed seeing all of that info compiled in one place. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2003 09:11:17 -0400 From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: CMIAR > Best always (and no offense intended really, Bob M), Of course none taken my friend...I was a bit too flippant with my comment and apologize to both the reviewer & to both of you CMIARS fans out there! ;~) And let's face it...the guy DID say "Chinese Laundry"! Bob NP: Warren Zevon, "Stand In The Fire" ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2003 08:20:01 -0500 From: "mack watson-bush" Subject: Re: CMIAR My problem with it and, therefore, why I don' t like it is that I CAN'T HEAR JONI. mack np: song to a seagull-our joan finally after days off I will throw off those stay at home shoes and escape the insanity of people of recovery. damn. no offense intended. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2003 10:06:58 -0700 From: "Victor Johnson" Subject: Re: box set bummer, some random thoughts ) maybe they're just trying > to woo those who haven't as yet bought these on CD (I'll refrain > from using the word 'upgrade' out of respect for the audiophiles). > BUT given that they have been out on CD for a while now, I seriously > doubt that there are many Joni fans who have been 'on the fence' in > regards to Joni's Geffen releases. What they SHOULD have done is what David Bowie, Iron Maiden, and others have done...put out remastered, repackaged new editions individually, each containing two or three bonus tracks at the end. It almost seems like they're shooting themselves in the foot, treating Joni like some princess who lives in a castle with brown tenemant walls...almost like they don't really expect it to sell a whole lot except to a select few so they'll milk those few people for all they can get instead of just treating her like any other successful artist... Also, it seems that they make no effort at all to reach a younger generation of fans but are appealing only to the longtime, diehard fans. Victor NP: Ozzy Osbourne "You Can't Kill Rock 'n Roll" Victor Johnson New cd "Parsonage Lane" available now Produced by Chris Rosser at Hollow Reed Studios, Asheville http://www.waytobluemusic.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2003 10:11:11 EDT From: AzeemAK@aol.com Subject: Re: box set bummer, some random thoughts In a message dated 26/09/2003 15:07:48 GMT Daylight Time, waytoblu@mindspring.com writes: > What they SHOULD have done is what David Bowie, Iron Maiden, and others > have done And who'd have thought that David Bowie, Joni Mitchell and Iron Maiden would ever be mentioned in the same sentence?! :-D Azeem in London NP: Robet Palmer - Not A Word ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2003 07:14:02 -0700 From: "Mark or Travis" Subject: Re: The Geffen Set > Naw, he's welcome to his opinion, and I'm happy that CMIARS > thrills him so. But it's miles away from brilliant, especially > when judged on Joni's own scale. > In *your* opinion. There might even be one or two people on the JMDL who think CMIARS is brilliant. I'm glad you don't think any or all of them are 'not too bright'. Mark ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2003 10:36:24 -0700 From: "Victor Johnson" Subject: Re: The Geffen Set > In *your* opinion. There might even be one or two people on the JMDL > who think CMIARS is brilliant. I'm glad you don't think any or all of > them are 'not too bright'. You mean, Bob Muller's words are not absolute fact and carved into stone? This can not be. Surely you do not mean that is only his opinion. My illusions have been painfully shattered. Victor, loyal member and acolyte of the church of the Mighty Cover King, Bob Muller NP: Ozzy Osbourne "I Don't Know" Victor Johnson New cd "Parsonage Lane" available now Produced by Chris Rosser at Hollow Reed Studios, Asheville http://www.waytobluemusic.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2003 11:02:05 -0400 (EDT) From: notaro@stpt.usf.edu Subject: Re: The Geffen Set Quoting Victor Johnson : > You mean, Bob Muller's words are not absolute fact and carved into > stone? > This can not be. Surely you do not mean that is only his opinion. My > illusions have been painfully shattered. Muller? Opinionated? Na-a-a-a-a-a-a-h! Hey. That's why we love him! Jerry ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2003 15:09:28 +0000 From: "Sherelle Smith" Subject: [none] So sorry about the lack of the NJC tag. I was so sure I put that in there >but got distracted at my desk and sent it off without the tag! > >Thanks so much for sharing that information Laurent. I did not know how >things actually began. I also want to applaud all of the list members who >are able to state their differing opinions so eloquently and respectfully. >It gives me a chance to see all sides of the issue. > >I don't mean to be blind to things, but I have always had such a love and >respect for the Old Testament and for Israel. I love all people of all >nationalities and I know that no one is perfect, but Israel holds a special >place for me. (England comes in second) > >A coworker of mine just told me that a big holiday of his is coming up-Rosh >Hashana. Could you tell me what that is? > >Sherelle > > > >From: "Laurent Olszer" > >Reply-To: "Laurent Olszer" > >To: "Sherelle Smith" > >CC: > >Subject: Re: State assasination of Arafat > >Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2003 16:46:47 +0100 > > > >I do have to say that I agree with you that Israel > > > always seems to be held to a higher standard by the rest of the world. > >It > > > has always puzzled me. I didn't realize that they also held themselves > >to > >a > > > higher standard. I think I have to take a chance to step forward and say > > > that I totally agree with your comments. > > > > > > Sherelle _________________________________________________________________ Instant message in style with MSN Messenger 6.0. Download it now FREE! http://msnmessenger-download.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2003 11:11:30 -0400 From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: The Geffen Set > My > illusions have been painfully shattered. And on your birthday no less! Hope your special day survives the crushing blow Victor...for alas, I am mere mortal, flawed as any. (And more opinionated than most!):~) Hope your day is a knockout - I'll spin "Parsonage Lane" tonight in your honor! Bob NP: Zwan, "Yeah!" ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2003 11:16:13 -0400 From: "Richard Flynn" Subject: FW: The Geffen Set - -----Original Message----- From: Richard Flynn [mailto:rflynn@frontiernet.net] Sent: Friday, September 26, 2003 11:15 AM To: waytoblu@mindspring.com Subject: RE: The Geffen Set I know I was supposed to listen to _Mingus_ again and comment, but I have to work, & so won't be listening to it till alter in the weekend. But I did play the non-box-set version of CMIAR, which I haven't listened to in a long time, and have to say that I think it's still mostly a turkey, with a few good moments, the best of which are non-Joni songs, cowboy classic "Cool Water" and the cover of "Corrina, Corrina." "Beat of Black Wings" is also lovely, but isn't that already remastered on _Misses_? I really hated that synth sound in the 80s and I still hate it, but not as violently because now it seems quaint and historical. "Dancin' Clown," however, never will have even that faint charm. Of the 4 in the set, DED is the only one I don't have on CD--but for the time being, my vinyl will do. If I could only get the Dylan cover without spending 45-50 bucks, I'd be happy. As CMIAR was concluding, the mailman arrived with the new Emmylou, the new Rodney Crowell, and the super great sounding (if "Blood on the Tracks" is any indication) Dylan remasters of "Highway 61," "Bringin' it All Back Home." and "Blonde on Blonde." So I trust you'll all forgive me if I put Chalk Mark back on the shelf, even those of you who think it's a masterpiece. Cheers, Richard > -----Original Message----- > From: Victor Johnson [mailto:waytoblu@mindspring.com] > Sent: Friday, September 26, 2003 1:36 PM > To: SCJoniGuy@aol.com; rflynn@frontiernet.net; joni@smoe.org; Mark or > Travis > Subject: Re: The Geffen Set > > > > In *your* opinion. There might even be one or two people on the JMDL > > who think CMIARS is brilliant. I'm glad you don't think any or all of > > them are 'not too bright'. > > You mean, Bob Muller's words are not absolute fact and carved into stone? > This can not be. Surely you do not mean that is only his opinion. My > illusions have been painfully shattered. > > Victor, loyal member and acolyte of the church of the Mighty Cover King, > Bob Muller > > NP: Ozzy Osbourne "I Don't Know" > > > > > Victor Johnson > New cd "Parsonage Lane" available now > Produced by Chris Rosser at Hollow Reed Studios, Asheville > http://www.waytobluemusic.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2003 11:29:06 EDT From: SMC1254@aol.com Subject: Re:boxed set bummer I disagree with you but respect your opinion. I think Joni explains why she released these disks on the first page of the booklet - quite eloquently. Also, I wholeheartedly disagree with you in regards to your feelings about Travelogue - I find this an amazing accomplishment that many just don't seem to get...many do though and that is the great thing about having an opinion. Thanks, Stephen ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2003 11:35:53 -0400 From: "Richard Flynn" Subject: RE: boxed set bummer How about a taste of that eloquence for those of us who don't plan to buy the box? > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-joni@jmdl.com [mailto:owner-joni@jmdl.com]On Behalf Of > SMC1254@aol.com > Sent: Friday, September 26, 2003 11:29 AM > To: joni@smoe.org > Subject: Re:boxed set bummer > > > I disagree with you but respect your opinion. I think Joni > explains why she > released these disks on the first page of the booklet - quite > eloquently. Also, > I wholeheartedly disagree with you in regards to your feelings about > Travelogue - I find this an amazing accomplishment that many just > don't seem to > get...many do though and that is the great thing about having an opinion. > Thanks, > Stephen ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2003 13:36:23 -0400 From: "Marianne Rizzo" Subject: Judgement of the Moon and Stars Scott and Laura, So very well said. .. . . . and the line, "c'mon, you've got to try" is just that one more encouraging push to STAND UP FOR WHAT YOU BELIEVE IN, even when they, "aim the hoses at you." And they will. And they do. Joni, This song has given me such strength in times of trouble. . .*THANK YOU* so much for giving me strength in times of trouble, ie. . . times of trouble in my quest for land preservation. . . . and times of trouble in my difficult life of teaching in an urban school district. Just last week, this song once again inspired me, in a time of need.. . . and I played the song over and over again. you've got to try, Marianne Laura writes: >I was listening the the Judgement of the Moon and Stars and was >really moved by the imagery of the movement of the piano keys being only >the >surface expression of what goes on with much more power inside the piano. >I >hadn't really thought much about how inside it is really hammering, >forcefully moving >the strings to vibrate, and how what the pianist does to the keys is sort >of >just the opposite of that... like her fingers are moving superficially to >express the incredible array of fireworks (emotions) going on in her >nervous >system. Paradoxes, parallels, all kinds of geometry. Awesome song. >Lightening across the sky, Scott writes: >Agreed. It's incredibly powerful. Musically stunning with lyrics conjuring >vivid images. A huge song which anchors the exquisite album FTR and leaves >me breathless. But most of all it has always seemed Joni captured what I >was feeling and thinking. >"Ludwig" begins somberly which matches feelings of despair and >introspection, then builds to an emotional climax when Joni nearly screams >"get on with it!" The admonishments to "shake your fists" and "you've got >to roar" and "Jesus well then you yell it" have served me well many times, >even if used with restraint. It's about taking charge, about making >*yourself* better. I take it quite literally as words to live by. The flow >of the musical structure and all the layering makes the whole all the more >moving. >Awesome, indeed. _________________________________________________________________ High-speed Internet access as low as $29.95/month (depending on the local service providers in your area). Click here. https://broadband.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2003 13:55:56 -0500 From: Subject: RE: boxed set bummer Weighing in on this one: I don't plan to get the Geffen set. I'll read through the thoughts all of you have expressed on the subject, and perhaps something will convince me that I must have this. However, from where I sit now, I don't see any reason to re-purchase four CDs that I already have for the sake of one unreleased track and some notes. My sound equipment is not so sophisticated that I'd notice much difference due to the remastering. I'll use the money I save to try to track down some old, hard-to-find Warren Zevon CDs, and to buy stuff by up-and-coming artists who are new to me. Sorry, Joni--but even my loyalty has its limits. Mary P., notorious tightwad (at least, about duplicative purchases). ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2003 15:16:57 -0400 From: Susan McNamara Subject: Test Your Joni IQ!! Hi Gang: I'm getting ready for the Joni Mitchell Open Mike at Juna's Cafe, Ithaca NY on October 2 and I thought as a party favor I would make "Test Your Joni IQ" tents on the tables. Who better to test this brainteaser than on the people who should know better!!! :-) Let me know what you think (and I know you will). Question #1 Joni is known as a confessional songwriter. One of the best examples of this is the song Little Green. What is this song about and what event in the recent past brought the subject of the song full circle? Joni lyric hint: "So you sign all the papers in the family name, you're sad and you're sorry but you're not ashamed of Little Green, have a happy ending." Question #2 An interviewer asked this Rock God who he thought were some of the best women songwriters in Rock and Roll? He answered that he didn't know of any. When the interviewer asked incredulously, "What about Joni Mitchell?" he answered, "Joni Mitchell is a man." Who made this notorious quote? Joni lyric hint: "Coyote was jumping straight up and making passes, He had those same eyes just like yours, Under your dark glasses" Question #3 What hard living, gun-toting Rocker produced Joni's first album? He is also known for the quote: "Joni Mitchell is as modest as Mussolini!" Joni lyric hint: "The taste of the spray he takes, And he learns to give, He aches and he learns to live , He stakes all his silver ... On a promise to be free" Question #4 Who was one of Joni's big Studio 54 dancing buddies who also sang backup on the album Don Juan's Reckless Daughter? Joni lyric hint: "Betsy's blue she says, "Tell me something good!" Question #5 The Bold Joni has had a vast array of interesting lovers. On Wild Things Run Fast, four men who were former lovers and a roommate appear on the song "Man to Man." Who were they? Joni lyric hint: "How come I keep movin from Man to Man to Man ?" Question #6 On her birthday in 1998, Joni attended a performance by John Kelly and after the show presented him with one of her dulcimers. What genre does John Kelly perform? Joni lyric hint: " they paved paradise and put up a parking lot " - -- "Heart and humor and humility will lighten up your heavy load ... " - Joni Mitchell ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2003 13:40:30 -0700 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: RE: boxed set bummer >How about a taste of that eloquence for those of us who don't plan to buy the box?< me too, i'd love to hear what she wrote... & does it strike anyone as deja deja deja vu vu vu that joni's musical choices are controversial or disappointing to some of her fans? whether its new songs or rearranged or remastered... it seems to me its been that way more years than not....not a judgement just an observation... ******************************************** Kate Bennett www.katebennett.com sponsored by Polysonics Discover the Indies at Taylor Guitars: http://www.taylorguitars.com/artists/awp/indies/bennett.html ******************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2003 18:21:51 -0400 From: BRYAN8847@aol.com Subject: Re: JMDL Digest V2003 #486 -- Why the Geffen set??? In response to: I seriously don't understand why so many of you all blame Joni personally for this stuff. These types of products come from record company business and marketing decisions. I only have a rough idea of how song licensing and record contracts work (where's Brenda?!) but I'm pretty sure Joni has very little to do with what they release, etc...... Kakki Yes...my relatively uneducated guess is that the guys in suits (or whatever they wear in LA) made many of the decisions here...at least it is they who decide whether to produce/release the thing or not. The record company, except in a few cases, absolutely holds the legal right to manufacture and release or re-release recordings (though of course some artists these days are running their own labels and others are negotiating the ownership, or possibly licensing, if that's a better word, rights to their recordings). Anyway though, do you remember when the Geffen box set discussion started months ago? At some point after Joni, as she mentioned in some interview, contacted the company and reminded them that they have her Geffen cds in a vault and would they like to do something with them. So perhaps it was Joni who got the disk rolling, but the to-do-or-not-to-do decision belongs to the suits currently in charge, which do not include the free-man-in-paris himself, as I understand it. It is very likely that Joni sees this as another effort (as was "Misses") to reintroduce some of her more-neglected work to the public, and perhaps a way of boosting her legacy. I don't know if it will succeed at that or not. I will definitely buy this set, probably as a holiday gift to myself. I may be a member of a small minority, but I really like the Geffen period work. As I've said earlier, it doesn't hold up too well when compared to the 70s masterpieces (what does?), but I nonetheless enjoy these albums a great deal. I am neither ashamed nor embarrassed to include CMIARS among my most enjoyed. Yes, I wish they had included more previously unreleased stuff. Bryan ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2003 18:38:53 EDT From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: JMDL Digest V2003 #486 -- Why the Geffen set??? > I can't help responding that that seems to be just how Joni sees herself! I think she does set herself apart from everyone else in the biz - for better or worse - and that might explain why she doesn't get her hands dirty and involve herself in what is done in her name, the "product" that is released. I'd guess this applied to this box set more than the last two albums, as they seem to have been the sort of labour of love nobody could have persuaded anyone into doing if they didn't already want to. I think the point you make about re-releasing the individual albums is an excellent one, Victor. The fans would be more likely to buy them, while newbies might poke their heads in too. It seems almost perverse that her Geffen output (which, just to be clear on where I stand, is vastly inferior to her 70s work) is receiving this treatment while the 70s material is ignored. Azeem in London ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2003 20:26:12 -0400 From: "Lama, Jim L'Hommedieu" Subject: RE: box set bummer, some random thoughts I've been following this thread and there seems to be a recurring theme that the Geffen label is out charge a lot without giving the box set buying public a fair deal. I respectfully disagree and here's why. I think the executives in ANY record company know that the diehard fan wants a box chocked full of unique stuff. I think they probably pushed really, really hard for more rarities. Someone responsible for making money on boxed sets wouldn't go out of his or her way to trim bonus tracks away! Do record companies often shoot themselves in the foot? No, that's Joni's thumbprint! I think that the small number of extra tracks and the heavy cardstock was a Creative Decision from the Artist. Before you accuse the corporation, ask yourself, "Who's the perfectionist, constantly putting ever-fancier frames around her work?" I rest my case. Lama More news as it develops. Later tonight, my next post will be the scathing introduction to the box by the Artist. It's only 4 paragraphs long but she's so obsessed with frames these days, she gave it a title..... ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2003 20:45:44 EDT From: AsharaJM@aol.com Subject: Re: box set bummer, some random thoughts In a message dated 9/26/2003 9:05:33 AM Eastern Standard Time, SCJoniGuy@aol.com writes: > Like going to see the neighbor's kid in > the school play, we pretty much know going into it what we're going > to get but do it anyway so we can maintain the relationship. > You know, this is exactly how I feel about it. I ordered it online and it's on the way, but I'm not real excited about getting it. Well put, Coversman. Hugs, Ashara ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2003 00:56:13 +0000 From: nabalom@comcast.net Subject: Re: Robert Palmer R.I.P. Howdy Folks, Yes indeed it is very sad to hear about Mr. Palmer...As many have said his recording output was rather hit-or-miss; but he was a true musician and his first few albums are oft-overlooked classics...In case you have never heard them, check them out...They are, "Sneakin' Sally Thru the Alley" (which I personally think is his best; I played that sucka to death in college...FYI, theh backing band for that album, and one of the reasons it is soooo HOT, is early Litte Feat!), "Some People Can Do What They Like", "Pressure Drop", and there may be one or two others as well...Like I said, definitely worth checking out...Robert was heavily influenced by, and worked with, Alan Toussaint (who Co- Produced alot of Robert's late 70's and early 80's output, and the whole cajun- zydeco-funk-soul-rock scene... It is truly a lose....But we still of course have his music with us... It's odd, we have been losing alot of artists lately...I suppose it may be more perceptional though as well; the older we get the more of 'our' artists, those of our generation start to pass, and you notice their lose more...A cyclical thang I am sure each generation experiences...It is an odd feeling though... Well Sir Robert...Long May You Run... Peas...Sir Lance ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2003 21:08:51 -0400 From: "Lama, Jim L'Hommedieu" Subject: RE: box set bummer, some random thoughts Naw, the 70s work hasn't been ignored really. All of the 70s work has been remastered for CD (in HDCD) by the elves at Reprise. They took the opportunity to restore the missing seconds of "Miles Of Aisles". Unlike Geffen's DOG EAT DOG, I don't think Reprise has ever discounted her work to value-line prices nor taken a single one out of circulation. Although Joni didn't have a contract with anyone, Reprise put out "TRAVELOGUE" from their Nonesuch branch for us. Joni's first manager, Elliot Roberts, said that Reprise has given our heroine carte blanche where packaging is concerned from Day One. That's why she said "No" to the other major labels. I read it in "Joni Mitchell: Shadows and Light". Have you heard of it? It was written by a close personal friend, Karen O'Brien. :) Lama np: WILD THINGS RUN FAST's "Chinese Cafe/Unchained Melody". Gees, that John Guerin was some great, Blade-like drummer! Did I mention that I have Joni Mitchell's new box set THE COMPLETE GEFFEN RECORDINGS? I was discussing it today with a bad lady and... Azeem said > I can't help responding that that seems to be just how Joni sees herself! I think she does set herself apart from everyone else in the biz - for better or worse - and that might explain why she doesn't get her hands dirty and involve herself in what is done in her name, the "product" that is released. I'd guess this applied to this box set more than the last two albums, as they seem to have been the sort of labour of love nobody could have persuaded anyone into doing if they didn't already want to. I think the point you make about re-releasing the individual albums is an excellent one, Victor. The fans would be more likely to buy them, while newbies might poke their heads in too. It seems almost perverse that her Geffen output (which, just to be clear on where I stand, is vastly inferior to her 70s work) is receiving this treatment while the 70s material is ignored. > Victor wrote: << It almost seems like they're shooting themselves in the foot, treating Joni like some princess who lives in a castle with brown tenemant walls >> ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2003 18:46:44 -0700 From: "kakki" Subject: Re: Why the Geffen set??? Bryan wrote: "The record company, except in a few cases, absolutely holds the legal right to manufacture and release or re-release recordings" That has always been my understanding, too. I would think that whatever Joni negotiated back in the early 80s for her Geffen contract would still apply today and would probably not be easily renegotiable. She is no longer under contract to them or I suppose to Reprise, either, at this point. Therefore she would not have much say in what direction Universal Music Group wants to take it. Universal would have also inherited her debit balance on the re-couping side so Joni may still be legally obligated to them financially and would have to cede to their business decisions in making a profit on the material they own. It also becomes apparent that Geffen/Universal probably cannot legally release any alternate or demo versions of any of her other songs that they do not own. So we are not going to see a good, comprehensive box set come out of Geffen/Universal at any rate. I am now wondering who owns the rights to most of her other songs - Reprise? You also wrote: " Anyway though, do you remember when the Geffen box set discussion started months ago? At some point after Joni, as she mentioned in some interview, contacted the company and reminded them that they have her Geffen cds in a vault and would they like to do something with them. So perhaps it was Joni who got the disk rolling, but the to-do-or-not-to-do decision belongs to the suits currently in charge, which do not include the free-man-in-paris himself, as I understand it." Someone else who has read the liner notes for this box set mentioned to me that Joni speaks about having wanted to get her masters back from Geffen for a long time. I hope Lama or someone gives us some excerpts - I'd like to hear what she says. I can imagine Joni getting the ball rolling but again, maybe it had something to do with re-couping and she might have thought this would be a good approach in sparking some renewed interest in the limited amount of Geffen songs. From what I've observed reading here over the years there ARE a number of her loyal fans who favor the Geffen songs the most. Their discussions have definitely inspired me to listen to them with new ears and I have grown to appreciate a lot of the music from that period. Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2003 18:49:36 -0700 From: "Mark or Travis" Subject: Re: boxed set bummer > Mary P., > notorious tightwad (at least, about duplicative purchases). I'm hoping against hope that Costco will have it. Stranger things have happened. I actually found the 'Shadows and Light' dvd there! Mark ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2003 18:56:31 -0700 From: Frederick Woodruff Subject: Court And Spark art work (not!) Hi Everyone This is my first "entry" into the list. My name is Frederick and I live in Seattle Washington with my boyfriend and our two cats. I'm a web geek (designer and webmaster) and freelance music reviewer. My written features have appeared in the Honolulu Weekly, the Seattle Weekly, Salon.com and sundry other online and print publications. I'm also an abstract artist, painting out of our studio in Washington. I really love the idea of this list -- and I'm looking forward to some creative, revealing and lively exchanges. So, "hi!" and I'm glad I could make the party. There's several different topics I'd like to address (I've been trawling the list's archives for the last couple of hours -- spellbound and impressed with all of the opinions and viewpoints and knowledgeable posts -- what a dedicated and savvied fan base!) -- but first I've a comment --and then a request. Most likely this has been addressed here already, though without a "search" function to the list I'm not sure. Recently I repurchased a CD version of Court and Spark (probably my sixth investment, if you consider the years [wow] and the versions -- 8 track (no lie!!), cassette, vinyl, more vinyl, MORE vinyl and then finally the CD). What prompted my recent purchase was the sticker Warner Bros. had put on the jewelcase -- promising a remastered version of the album AND all the original art work from the project. Well, my heart jumped on both counts -- as my original copy of the CD had terrible high end distortion on the song Down To You -- making the song painful to listen to (when that distortion kicked in). And I was so pleased to hear that, indeed, the remastered version took care of that problem. What pissed me off though was the blatant lie regarding "original art work and album notes." Unless there was an error in the packaging, my new copy of CAS contained no such graphics. What's particularly ironic is the listed photo credit to Norman Seeff, when there's no photo to be found -- all Warners enclosed was the "cover" of the album as a fold over one-sheet, with a sloppy collection of credits (punctuation errors, etc.) -- AND THAT'S IT. There are no printed lyrics, as the vinyl record offered -- and worst, the fabulous, jazzy/glamorous Seeff near-profile shot of Joni, (that was such the perfect metaphor to match the mood and ethos of the record) is nowhere to be found in the "new" CD. Out of ire I almost called Warner Bros. the other day to lodge a complaint, but I thought I should post here and ask if, indeed, that's the consensus case with this remastered CD version -- or did I just a screwed up copy? If not, someone should take them to task for blatantly misleading the consumer. It sucks. My request is this: does anyone have a decent scan or jpeg of the Seeff photo from the vinyl version of CAS, and, if so, might they share a copy with me. Being the quintessential fanatic, I'd like to size it to fit the jewelbox and make a printed copy. Obviously I no longer have my vinyl LP copy -- that went,(regrettably now, when I think about it) at a "moving" garage sale, some years ago. My email address is zenpop@mindspring.com Thanks so much. Frederick ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2003 19:05:37 -0700 From: "kakki" Subject: Re: box set bummer, some random thoughts Bob wrote: > While that's true, there's a fear on my part that if it doesn't > move many units (and don't get me wrong, I hope that it's wildly > successful but can't fathom that it will be) then the hopes of getting > a REAL boxset will be dashed on the rocks, at least for a LOOOONG > time. Naw - all the good stuff is still over at Reprise! ;-) And now I'm getting the feeling Joni does have some plans up her sleeve for the *real,* knock em' out, vast compendium of rarities down the road. Of course, you know it going to come in a big old artsy box with lots of paintings and booklets and stuff, too, that will up the price by double. LOL I'll pay it! Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2003 22:30:01 -0400 From: "Lama, Jim L'Hommedieu" Subject: "The Lost Years" by Joni Mitchell This is the forward in THE COMPLETE GEFFEN RECORDINGS box set: - ------------------------------- THE LOST YEARS by Joni Mitchell - ------------------------------- It was Christmas. I was signing prints for Geffen's "A" list, when I was informed by an alarmed friend that my first two (Geffen) albums had been cut out. I called up the company president and I said, "You mean I'm sitting here, getting writer's cramp, giving you these signed lithos for nothing and you've dropped WILD THINGS RUN FAST and DOG EAT DOG?" I was demoralized. I made four albums for Geffen. For one reason or another, they were viewed as being out of sync with the '80s. But I was out of synch with the '80s. Thanks God! To be in sync with these times, in my opinion, was to be degenerating both morally and artistically. Materialism became a virtue; greed was "hip". You heard the word "victim" bandied about, but never the word "victimizer". It seemed like everyone was dressed in black everywhere. What were we mourning? When Geffen Records sold to MCA, they announced with pride, on the radio, all of the great and near great artists transferred in the deal. I was not mentioned. In '98, when the conglomerate possessing my masters merged with another conglomerate, PolyGram, again the roster was highlighted in the media and again I was not mentioned. When this "multiglomerate" announced its intentions to sell itself to France, I called the CEO and requested that he return my masters to me. "They're like an old pair of slippers at the back of your closet. They're just gathering dust. You don't even know they're there." He agreed that he didn't. "I know this is audacious," I said, "But you're not making any money off of them so, give 'em to me!" He passed me down to the president. For the last three years, I have been meeting with Universal representatives trying to get these records back on the street. So, here, sprung from the dungeons of Geffen Records after doing twelve years for failing to be wildly popular, are these four parolees. Much thanks to Mike Ragogna and Andy McKaie and Bruce Resnikoff and Jimmy Iovine- friends on the inside. Special thanks to David Geffen for the file in the cake. - ------------------------------- Now Lama again: Page 3 is now barely hanging on to the binder. The cardstock has stressed the glue too much during the time it took me to type in this essay. Very soon, it's going to end up like the loose cardstock in the BSN box, which MG called "trading cards". short-sighted businessmen nothin' lasts for long nothin' lasts for long nothin' lasts for long Lama ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2003 22:42:36 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: box set bummer, some random thoughts --- kakki wrote: > Naw - all the good stuff is still over at Reprise! > ;-) And now I'm getting > the feeling Joni does have some plans up her sleeve > for the *real,* knock > em' out, vast compendium of rarities down the road. > Of course, you know it > going to come in a big old artsy box with lots of > paintings and booklets and > stuff, too, that will up the price by double. LOL > I'll pay it! This is the one we're all waiting for, fingers tapping idly, thumbs twiddling, all that sitting-around-waiting stuff. And I welcome the artwork too. I might even sacrifice a few bags of groceries for it because I can always send the cats out hunting for birds and squirrels for dinner. And God help them if they come back empty-handed (or empty-pawed, as the case may be) because I hear cat tastes just like chicken. ===== Catherine Toronto - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- We all live so close to that line, and so far from satisfaction ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2003 23:06:44 EDT From: PassScribe@aol.com Subject: Re:Judgement of the Moon & Stars In a message dated 9/26/03 3:01:18 AM, les@jmdl.com writes: << From: LCStanley7@aol.com Subject: Re: Judgement of the Moon and Stars Hi Ya'll, I was listening the the Judgement of the Moon and Stars and was really moved by the imagery of the movement of the piano keys being only the surface expression of what goes on with much more power inside the piano. I hadn't really thought much about how inside it is really hammering, forcefully moving the strings to vibrate, and how what the pianist does to the keys is sort of just the opposite of that... like her fingers are moving superficially to express the incredible array of fireworks (emotions) going on in her nervous system. Paradoxes, parallels, all kinds of geometry. Awesome song. >> Yeah, Dr. Laura I think my love for the piano has made that song very special to me... I love the graphic references throughout. Next to "Down to You", probably my second favorite Joni song. Kenny B ------------------------------ End of onlyJMDL Digest V2003 #301 ********************************* ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she? (http://www.siquomb.com/siquomb.cfm)