From: les@jmdl.com (onlyJMDL Digest) To: onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Subject: onlyJMDL Digest V2003 #230 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/onlyjoni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com Unsubscribe: mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe onlyJMDL Digest Sunday, July 20 2003 Volume 2003 : Number 230 Sign up now for JoniFest 2003! http://www.jonifest.com ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- For Free [BRYAN8847@aol.com] Re: For Free [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: Joni and Buffy [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: "For Free" -> Joni as hypocrite? [Catherine McKay Joni as hypocrite? [dsk ] re: For Free ["mia ortlieb" ] Re: For Free [dsk ] Re: For Free [dsk ] Re: For Free [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: "For Free" -> Joni as hypocrite? [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Perma-Vine ["Garret" ] [none] ["mack watson-bush" ] Re: Playing real good for free [PassScribe@aol.com] Today in History: July 20 [ljirvin@jmdl.com] Today's Library Links: July 20 [ljirvin@jmdl.com] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2003 03:07:34 EDT From: BRYAN8847@aol.com Subject: For Free Speaking of For Free (sorry if this is NJC sort of), has anyone hear Judy Collins' cover of For Free? It was recorded in the late 80s with Richard Stolzman (or something like that). A more mature and sophisticated treatment of the song, it's very nice. Bryan ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2003 08:23:31 EDT From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: For Free In a message dated 7/19/2003 3:08:40 AM Eastern Daylight Time, BRYAN8847@aol.com writes: > has anyone hear Judy > Collins' cover of For Free? Yes, among MANY others, Bryan. It is a lovely version, perhaps my favorite Judy Collins' Joni cover. Ethel Ennis does a fun jazzy version, and HER street musician is playing a saxophone. David Crosby, always very vocal about Joni's genius, praised the song and recorded it with The Byrds & performed it live many times with them and with CPR. Bette Midler performed it in her early bathhouse shows, with Barry Manilow tinkling the ivories. And speaking of the ivories, Fred Simon turns in a beautiful version of it on his "Songs Of My Youth, Volume 1", along with other Joni's, Beatles, and other gems. James Taylor (who may have partially been the muse - who knows?) has performed it live solo as well (1970), in his own inimitable 'aw shucks' style. Thanks to wonderful JMDL'ers everywhere, we've got these unreleased recordings in our covers collection - soon to be re-released in an inbox near you, so stay tuned! To see details about all the (23) For Free covers I've found thus far: http://www.jmdl.com/covers/index.cfm And search on the song title. Bob NP: Tasmin Archer, "Sleeping Satellite" ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2003 08:34:51 EDT From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: Joni and Buffy In a message dated 7/18/2003 10:01:55 PM Eastern Daylight Time, michaelo@webnet.qc.ca writes: > Buffy's still in excellent voice, very dynamic > and cheerful, still singing her old hits, Up Where We Belong, Until Its Time > For You to Go and Universal Soldier. And fwiw, she also recorded "Song To A Seagull", "The Circle Game" and the controversial "For Free". ;~) Her warbly voice is really not my cup of tea, but that's just me. She followed Ian & Sylvia's lead with Circle Game and tried to compress it into a 3-minute hit, which just comes off as always so funny to me. It flies right by the tenderness of the song imo. Bob NP: Stevie Ray Vaughan, "Pride & Joy" ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2003 08:55:37 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: "For Free" -> Joni as hypocrite? --- "Lama, Jim L'Hommedieu" wrote: > I may have to surrender my decoder ring when this is > widely known but LADIES > OF THE CANYON often strikes me, in places as > cloying. Not today, though. > Today I'm in tune with "Morning/Morgantown" and the > later "California". I don't listen to it much either. I loved it when I was a teenager but now I find it a bit too saccharine or something. Then again, I haven't listened to it for a while, so maybe it's time. "For Free" isn't one of my favourite songs, but maybe it's because it's one that you hear so often (not as often as BYT - Gaaaah!) ===== Catherine Toronto ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2003 09:36:18 EDT From: Bobsart48@aol.com Subject: Re: Covers Possibilities > > Hey Bob, What would you think about converting all the covers to MP3 so > > they would fit on 4 CDs instead of 40. > > > > I suppose I could, depending on the interest. I've learned not to become too > > overzealous and go for it and then have 4-5 people respond. > Bob, I only have a couple of your covers CD's (frankly, I've had more new material to absorb in the last couple of years than I could really handle, but now I am ready for a bit more). The 2 you sent to me were the Sweet 16 disc and the Covers 1 disk. It struck me that there was such a broad range of quality on these that the next challenge for the world renowned expert might be to compile them in useful formats of various types. I suspect that that might take some high-tech assistance, but.... On the Covers 1 version, I particularly enjoyed Tim Curry's CBS&SF and Holly Cole's River (my wife hated the Barry Manilow cover of that song, but loved the JT cover at the tribute). As against that, I was a bit disappointed (perhaps because of all of the hype that preceded it) with Bonnie's cover of Midway (I think Joni's version flows better with this song, which has "round-like" qualities. I would be interested in hearing (and even in helping to compile) some of these covers into different formats. Several ideas spring to mind. For example, reconstructing the various Joni albums using the "best of " each song (not necessarily trying for homogeniety or seamlessness). I realize that not all of Joni's records could be completed on that basis, but you could start them all (heck, maybe fill in the missing cuts with Joni's version, until a cover appears). The suggestion to condense them into fewer MP3's might enable you to enlist opinions from other "judges" on the list as you see fit (like, "I am torn between 3 covers of CBS&SF - please vote among them gang"). Or, you could hold contests on the frequently covered songs, selecting what you think are the 10 best and letting us help pick a winner. Or, you could compile a covers CD of Love Songs, or Traveling/Flight Songs, or Life in Suburbia Songs, or Social Commentary Songs or Sorrow Songs or RocknRoll songs or Anti War Songs (10 to an album is enough, no ?) or Universal Theme songs, or Raceless Genderless Songs or Well, I was just splashing out some pretty useless thoughts, but I am sure you and others could come up with better compilation themes. By keeping down the riff raff and making the doses digestible and of high quality, I bet you could keep people interested for some time. Maybe we could talk some at the Fest about a first "trial ballon" of this type. Anyway, thanks for all your contributions to the list. Bobsart ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2003 10:38:17 EDT From: Bobsart48@aol.com Subject: Re: For Free > All disrespect to Joni aside, this writer (Colin B. Morton writing > on the Captain Beefheart website) makes some interesting points > regarding Joni's decision in the song "For Free". This is a cut > & paste and is sorta long, but it's all JC so hopefully nobody > will get too miffed by the length: Trying hard to provoke a response again, eh Muller ? (note that Bob M and Bob S do not get the job done on this list, so since you were mulling this over I thought I'd call you a muller - oh you pronounce your name like the pack animal - never mind). Anyway, my preliminary thoughts on this post are: 1. Morton was very good about stating his biases in front of his opinion. 2. I think that he is not terribly accurate with this words - perhaps his lack of sensitivity to words and art makes it difficult for him to appreciate the artistry of this (and similar songs). Also, it may limit his ability to express what he is actually thinking, I suspect. 3. I do not find Joni to be self-pitying generally, and certainly not in this song. Au contrere, I think she is self critical in this and many other songs, painting honest portraits of her failings, and once again striking the chord of recognition in many of us with similar feelings and experiences. Here, she is not feeling sorry for herself - she does not like herself particularly for her passing his music by (especially since she is capable of appreciating him). She is perhaps pitying the clarinetist, and feeling guilty about her wealth and good fortune in contrast to his. There is much more self-pity to pick on in Conversation than there is in For Free. 4. I am unimpressed by the casual use of vulgarity to make one's point - vulgarity has its place, but this was not the place, IMO - his use of it biases me against his point of view. 5. Joni's self pitying persona took form (I think) in the late seventies, and peaked in the 80's and early 90's. It did not become her, IMO, and this guy sounds to me like he was reacting to that persona rather than to the genre his is criticizing when he posted this piece. "Sitting round in mansions writing songs about how webve got to get back to the land, shagging other mewling singy-songwriters and oh how awful it is being a whinging self pitying git making lots of dosh singing about how awful it is being a whinging self pitying git." Now this could be about the whole Laurel Canyon group, but it sound like he is aiming at Joni in particular here. There is a difference between getting back to the land and getting back to the garden - is that distinction lost on this author ? Getting back to the land could be a means to the end of getting back to the garden, but there are other routes back there, don't you think ? And the implication of promiscuity for its own sake is unmistakably there and off the mark in this case - I am unimpressed by that type of inaccuracy. Finally, Joni did not write at all about how awful it was to be Joni, the rich performer. I agree that it ironic that Joni made money writing a song about how guilty she felt about having been lucky enough to have made money writing earlier songs. People who miss the point of irony are insensitive, and as I have stated, I think all insensitive people should go to hell. (Now, if anyone on this list does not get my insensitive remark as ironic, I give up). "Mitchell uses the fact of a fellow playing rather splendidly in the street as a vehicle for her own sellable self-pity, a means by which to make much more of the money she is moaning about. And did she speak to the fellow? Did she invite him to play on the record? Nope...." The implication here is that Joni wrote the song as a means to make money. However, I believe (and I think most would agree) that Joni pretty much throughout was primarily concerned with the art, and secondarily about the making of money. That seems to have been lost on the author, but that is his loss. "At the heart of Mitchell's song is the assumption that the dissemination of music by such capitalists, who care not a jot for art, is somehow less noble than giving it away directly to the public." I do not believe that said 'assumption" is at the heart of this song at all. The heart of this song is the sad realization that virtue and talent and beauty often go unrecognized, while less talented, less virutuous, and/or better packaged material often gets more reward than it deserves. It is not even close to being a perfect world. Just a commentary. I bet we have all felt sorry for ourselves in this regard from time to time (perhaps even the tougher-than-that author Mr. Morton, though I doubt he would admit it publicly so as to spare us from his angst). Joni did imply that the music on the street had a purity not to be found in commercially packaged work (hers included), and was probably feeling some pity for the guy, and some guilt about her success - and about passing his music by - but that guilt passes like the summer, we live to fail again and again, and once in a while we do something good to help make up for it, or maybe we never do. If Joni were holding herself up as a paragon of virtue, she would be hypocritical - but she is not. Au contrere, she exposes her failings, and thereby her limitations and her humanity. "(and whoever told her she could paint?)" You know something - I think this person is more bitter about Joni's success (and his lack of success - or perhaps the relative lack of success of his favorite artist - than Joni was about her lack of recognition. There - that's my take on this. What do you all think ? Bobsart ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2003 12:15:11 -0700 (PDT) From: Icnh@hotmail.com Subject: To Joni Fans - a note from anonanon Dear Joni Fans, Your friend anonanon was visiting The Quote Garden website today and wanted to share this page with you: http://www.quotegarden.com/conformity.html Best regards, The Quote Garden www.quotegarden.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2003 15:35:55 -0400 From: dsk Subject: Re: "For Free" -> Joni as hypocrite? "Lama, Jim L'Hommedieu" wrote: > > I have a perspective for you on this question. Joni was conflicted about > seeing the freedom of the street musician. She was conflicted about getting > wealth, status, and adoration for her work. She was conflicted about the > demand to be a human jukebox. > > Finally, she felt that her skin was like cellophane; she had see-through > skin. And being aware of all those conflicts, and willing to share them, is what makes her such a great artist. > I *know* you're with me so far. Yep, and then... > The only logical thing to do was to get back to the Garden. Build a garret. > Reclaim her amateur status. > ..... > Transformed, her true self, the painter who only pleases herself, was thus > restored. Complete again, she is able to go *TO* the city without BECOMING > the shut-down Urbanite that conflicts her. Maybe so. Motives for behavior are extremely complex, though. I have difficulty understanding why *I* do things, and I think it's impossible to figure out the reasons for anyone else's behavior, even though it can be an interesting and imaginative exercise. While reading your twisty thoughts about Joni, I picture a maze or a snake biting its own tail... and usually I see her as a "straight ahead" type person, who doesn't do a lot of backtracking and second guessing of herself. She experiences, she feels, she captures both in some creative form, she moves on... Whatever her inner psychological and emotional dynamics may be, my simple thought is that I'm glad they spewed out in all that she's given us. Debra Shea ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2003 15:04:31 -0500 From: "mia ortlieb" Subject: re: For Free <> I think this guy does not understand the setting of the song, at least in the way I see it. First of all, Joni is on the other side of the street watching the clarinet player. "across the street he stood." She wants to get over but can't because the light is red. So she is stuck watching all the passersby on the other side of the street ignore this musician. Second of all, when the light turns green, she tries to cross the street to get to the musician, but then she hears his "refrain." A "refrain" plays throughout a song; however, typically, songs also end on the "refrain." I think the musician was ending his song and then packing it up. I don't think Joni used the word "refrain" without intention. I especially like Joni's version on the "refuge of the roads video" where she adds in: "Playing like a fallin' angel, Playing like a rising star, Playing to a hat full of nothing, to the honking of the cars" Even though, the musician was playing good for free, he still would have liked to have made some money, thus the "hat full of nothin'." I would think that Joni has experienced playing to a "hat full of nothing" early in her career and can sympathize/relate to the musician. I have to agree with Emiliano's statement: >In my humble opinion, hypocritical means something like "lying about one self, in order to excuse or even trying to rise at other's level (that fucking competition again) Joni is not hypocritical, rather she is courageous for facing internal conflict head on! Mia _________________________________________________________________ Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2003 16:17:11 -0400 From: dsk Subject: Re: For Free Bobsart48@aol.com wrote: > > 3. I do not find Joni to be self-pitying generally, and certainly not in > this song. I agree with both those statements, and then I started wondering about other Joni songs that I think do express self-pity. (For the record, in my opinion small doses of self-pity can be healthy when they're the first stage in processing one's feelings about whatever upsetting thing has happened. Without recognizing one's feelings, no matter what they may be, I don't think it's possible to completely move on and learn from the experience, and Joni does always move on. That, for me, is what makes her music so healing.) So, with the highest regard for all of Joni's feelings, my vote for most self-pitying song goes to "River": "I'm selfish and I'm sad. Now I've gone and lost the best baby that I ever had, oh, I wish I had a river I could skate awaaaaaaay on..." Great song! My vote for second most self-pitying song goes to "Amelia": "It's so hard to obey his sad request of me to kindly stay away..." That's my favorite Joni song because it's raw and melancholy sounding and completely honest, and she's making deliberate efforts to process her self-pitying feelings. Self-pity songs are not nearly as much fun to think about as "boom boom pachyderm" ones are, but we've already done the Joni's sexiest song thing, although I'd be up for another go round of that one if anyone's interested. Debra Shea ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2003 17:06:16 -0400 From: dsk Subject: Re: For Free Bobsart48@aol.com wrote: > > The implication here is that Joni wrote the song as a means to make money. > However, I believe (and I think most would agree) that Joni pretty much > throughout was primarily concerned with the art, and secondarily about the > making of money. That seems to have been lost on the author, but that is his > loss. It's a complete creativity killer to imagine what might happen to any finished "product". So in the sense that Joni was completely involved in and absorbed by the creative process (whatever the product might be), where her music is concerned I agree she was primarily concerned with the art. At the same time, I think she always had the business aspect of it in mind, in a way she never has with her painting. It's an interesting paradox that the product she had the least creative romanticism about is the one that is most honest and originally expressive (in my opinion). Debra Shea NPIMH: Graham Nash in WOHAM talking about Joni "not being there" when she was working on something... ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2003 17:06:23 EDT From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: For Free In a message dated 7/19/2003 10:38:17 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Bobsart48 writes: > The heart of this song is the sad realization that virtue and talent and > beauty often go unrecognized, while less talented, less virutuous, and/or > better packaged material often gets more reward than it deserves. Hey, a great post there Bob...I've been mulling/mule-ing it over, and you put a LOT out there to ponder upon. This is certainly one facet of this song; it's almost like a cut gem with many sides to it. It's also, As Azeem stated, about the trappings of fame, and the realization that she couldn't return to that status herself. In some of the '74 recordings she goes on after the song to tell a story about seeing the clarinetist without his clarinet, and she asks him where it is, and he says that someone stole it. So she goes and buys him another one...and then she runs into him again, and again his clarinet is gone, only this time he's wearing sunglasses and has a sign around his neck which reads "Help Me - I'm Blind", and she realizes that maybe the guy was more con artist all along than anything else. It's sort of an interesting epilogue I think. How would you (meaning any of you obviously) compare For Free to For The Roses, in terms of "musical innocence lost", particularly this section: Up the charts Off to the airport Your name's in the news Everything's first class The lights go down And it's just you up there Getting them to feel like that Remember the days when you used to sit And make up your tunes for love And pour your simple sorrow To the soundhole and your knee Bob NP: Train, "Meet Virginia" ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2003 17:15:28 EDT From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: "For Free" -> Joni as hypocrite? In a message dated 7/18/2003 7:58:34 PM Eastern Daylight Time, emilianopd@mundo-r.com writes: > (Bob, you set the point "is she slyly _and with a view from the top_ > insulting us, her audience?" though you cut before the crucial line > "They knew he had never > Been on their t.v. > So they passed his music by") > That's a good point, Emiliano...but like so many of her songs the good lyrics just go on & on and it's hard to know when to cut them. And she updated that lyric for her '83 tour (the Refuge Of The Roads that Mia referenced) and sang: "They knew he had never been on MTV..." And yes, that "hatful of nothing" coda adds a lot I think. And it's another point that probably today in your town (or mine) there will be good musicians playing somewhere (although probably not for free) but we'll "pass them by" because we haven't heard of them either. SOme of the best shows I've seen were the ones I took a chance on (like REM in a small club in 1980), or opening acts I'd not heard of, like Amy Correia opening for Richard Thompson. Bob NP: Elvis Costello, "Ship Of Fools" ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2003 22:08:07 +0100 From: "Garret" Subject: Perma-Vine I have recieved the Joni and James perma-vine and am now posting an offer for this disc. Who wants it next?? Whoever wants this original, just let me know:-) And, anyone who doesnt have burniong facilities and wants to get a copy of this let me know, and ill pop one in the post soon. Im really enjoying it. GARRET ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2003 21:16:09 -0500 From: "mack watson-bush" Subject: [none] Experts. Perusing music sites and currently on Gino Vanelli. While doing so, looked up Nightwalker and thought I would get the cd as I left the album back in Texas. It gives credit to our Joan. Is she on that album? mack ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2003 00:18:36 EDT From: PassScribe@aol.com Subject: Re: Playing real good for free << From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: "For Free" -> Joni as hypocrite? In a message dated 7/18/2003 9:09:07 AM Eastern Standard Time, mark.travis@gte.net writes: In other words: Here's a guy playing great stuff totally free of charge and he's ignored. Meanwhile, the same people who ignore him will PAY and go to great lengths to see me, and I'm really no better. And what of HER response: "I meant to go over and ask for a song Maybe put on a harmony" Is she putting herself down as well? How would the song be different if she HAD decided not to cross at the light and went over there and put on that harmony? Bob >> Bob, I agree with your assessment of the tune. As for her NOT going over and asking for a song or putting on a harmony: I've often been faced with a situation where I contemplate doing something and then pass on it and do something else; later on, I regret not doing the thing I was thinking of.... can't we all relate to that? I've never felt this song was self-pitying; I just think it's Joni's confession of how she perceived her situation at the time, with a kind of irony thrown in. It seems to be simply a reflective composition. Remember, she was still relatively young and naive at the time she wrote this tune. Kenny B ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2003 02:07:37 -0400 From: ljirvin@jmdl.com Subject: Today in History: July 20 1983: Joni performed a controversial concert in Boston. More info: http://www.jmdl.com/performances/docs/830720.cfm - ---- For a comprehensive reference to Joni's appearances, consult Joni Mitchell ~ A Chronology of Appearances: http://www.jonimitchell.com/appearances.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2003 02:07:37 -0400 From: ljirvin@jmdl.com Subject: Today's Library Links: July 20 On July 20 the following article was published: 1983: "Time has been good to Joni Mitchell" - Saskatoon StarPhoenix (Interview) http://www.jmdl.com/articles/view.cfm?id=877 ------------------------------ End of onlyJMDL Digest V2003 #230 ********************************* ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she? (http://www.siquomb.com/siquomb.cfm)