From: les@jmdl.com (onlyJMDL Digest) To: onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Subject: onlyJMDL Digest V2003 #229 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/onlyjoni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com Unsubscribe: mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe onlyJMDL Digest Saturday, July 19 2003 Volume 2003 : Number 229 Sign up now for JoniFest 2003! http://www.jonifest.com ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- BSG (ex LRB) choose Joni [Gerald McNamara ] Re: 8 Songpoets Book [Gary Zack ] Turn it Up, I can't Hear the Words ["Colin Bishop" Joni as hypocrite? LONG [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: "For Free" -> Joni as hypocrite? LONG ["Mark or Travis" Joni as hypocrite? LONG ["Donna Binkley" Joni as hypocrite? [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: "For Free" -> Joni as hypocrite? LONG [AzeemAK@aol.com] Re: "For Free" -> Joni as hypocrite? [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: "For Free" -> Joni as hypocrite? [Jenny Goodspeed Joni as hypocrite? LONG [Catherine McKay Joni as hypocrite? LONG [dsk ] Re: "For Free" -> Joni as hypocrite? [Deb Messling ] Woman of Heart and Mind [FMYFL@aol.com] RE: Cindy and Bryan welcome the tardy one ["Lama, Jim L'Hommedieu" Joni as hypocrite? LONG [AzeemAK@aol.com] Re: "For Free" -> Joni as hypocrite? [=?utf-8?Q?Emiliano_Pati=C3=B1o?= Joni as hypocrite? ["Mark or Travis" ] "For Free" -> Joni as hypocrite? LONG ["Lama, Jim L'Hommedieu" ] Re: "For Free" -> Joni as hypocrite? ["Lama, Jim L'Hommedieu" Joni as hypocrite? ["kakki" ] "For Free" -> Joni as hypocrite? LONG ["Kate Bennett" Joni as hypocrite? LONG ["Lama, Jim L'Hommedieu" Joni as hypocrite? ["Paul Meyer-Strom" Joni as hypocrite? LONG ["Lama, Jim L'Hommedieu" Joni as hypocrite? LONG ["Lama, Jim L'Hommedieu" Joni as hypocrite? ["Lama, Jim L'Hommedieu" Subject: BSG (ex LRB) choose Joni Went to a concert last night here in Melbourne at the stately Forum Theatre. Before the curtain rose the BSN album was playing over the PA. Most unusual as we hardly ever hear any Joni, anywhere. There was a long delay before the band came on, so the audience got to hear just about the whole album. So what band would chose Joni as its pre-show music ??? It was Birtles, Shorrock and Goble who were the founding members and main singers and songwriters of the Little River Band. Backed by a 5 piece group of multi-instrumentalists, they were absolutely fantastic. Kinda like Brian Wilson with the Wondermints, but B,S & G are singing better than ever. Some entertainers improve with age ! If you ever liked LRB, you'd have to love BSG. The band called Little River Band continue to tour the world, but they haven't been back to Australia for many years, and although BSG sound exactly like the old LRB records, they've all signed away their legal rights to the LRB name and logo. I wonder what the current LRB sounds like. Nowhere near as good as BSG, I'll bet ! -Gerald ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2003 05:15:04 -0700 From: Gary Zack Subject: Re: 8 Songpoets Book I have this book and I am sure that either Joni or Laura or both have a chapter in the book. I don't have it handy as it's in storage but I'll be going through some of my things next week and I'll see if I can find it - and at least we can find out who the chapters are about. Best regards, Gary p.s. Hi Kakki!! kakki wrote: >Adding a me, too. I think I have heard of it but it was long ago. Would >love to read more details, Mike. > >Kakki > >> Hey, Mike >> I'd be very interested in the book you describe. I've never heard of >> >it > >>but if anyone knows of a copy for sale, I'd probably buy it; biographies >>fascinate me and I ESPECIALLY love bios on musicians. >> >> Kenny B ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2003 12:47:06 +0100 From: "Colin Bishop" Subject: Turn it Up, I can't Hear the Words Mike has recalled the title of the book accurately. It was published by Simon and Schuster, Ny, in 1973 & by Coronet in Britain in 1975. It concentrates on lyricists (obviously), and particularly Bob Dylan, Robert Hunter, Van Morrison, Joni, Randy Newmam, Laura Nyro, & Don Mclean. Colin Bishop - ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- - ---------------------------------------------------- In a message dated 7/17/03 3:00:36 AM, "mike pritchard" > ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2003 09:41:19 -0400 From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: "For Free" -> Joni as hypocrite? LONG All disrespect to Joni aside, this writer (Colin B. Morton writing on the Captain Beefheart website) makes some interesting points regarding Joni's decision in the song "For Free". This is a cut & paste and is sorta long, but it's all JC so hopefully nobody will get too miffed by the length: "My least favourite genre of music in the entire world, even more so than opera, techno scratty music, or indie pop wuss music (with which it bears a certain degree of resemblance) is that peculiar self-pitying angst riddled singer songwriter bullsh*t which reached its peak in 1974, the twilight of cool. You know, James Taylor, Crosby Stills and Nash (Graham Nash: "being in the Hollies stunted my artistic growth" F*CK OFF!). Sitting round in mansions writing songs about how webve got to get back to the land, shagging other mewling singy-songwriters and oh how awful it is being a whinging self pitying git making lots of dosh singing about how awful it is being a whinging self pitying git. My least favourite song in the entire world, boys and girls, happens to be an example of this latter genre. And the winner isb& FOR FREE by Joni Mitchell! That there song appears on one of those 70s Joni Mitchell albums. "Ladies Of The Canyon", I even looked on a Joni Mitchell website to find that out...see the sacrifices I make for you? I had to stop looking because it was giving me a stomach ache, so I can't tell you what else is on there. What happens in this song that so invites my ire is this: La Mitchell is walking down a street and she espies a man playing solo clarinet "for free". Some say 'twas possibly the fine improv soprano saxophonist Lol Coxhill. She is rather impressed by his playing and speculates briefly about going over and "putting on a har-mon-eeeee" but then the lights turn green and she is off, back to the swish hotel from which she went shopping for jooo-ew-els. I hate this song because it is just about as hypocritically self-pitying as a song can get. She goes for a walk, sees a guy playing free, and she reflects briefly on her position as a commodity in the music biz marketplace. Thus, in this dismal song, Mitchell uses the fact of a fellow playing rather splendidly in the street as a vehicle for her own sellable self-pity, a means by which to make much more of the money she is moaning about. And did she speak to the fellow? Did she invite him to play on the record? Nope.... But the thing is, awful folky black hole of self pity romantic bullsh*t though it is, "For Free" actually begs a question about the artist's relation to the means of production and all that Ben Watson type of crap. In Mitchell's time, the record companies' control of the means of production was well-nigh absolute, to such an extent they could even distort sales figures, (such as the well known case of Trout Mask Replica which has actually sold millions). At the heart of Mitchell's song is the assumption that the dissemination of music by such capitalists, who care not a jot for art, is somehow less noble than giving it away directly to the public. This was bound up with fashionable romantic notions of bohemianism. It buttered no parsnips back then whether you agreed or disagreed with these platitudes, because in those days the mechanism was not in place to disseminate music for free. Pressing costs, manufacturing sleeves with those Joni Mitchell paintings on (and whoever told her she could paint?) etc." So howzabout it? I guess perhaps the question to begin with is - - does this guy interpret the song correctly? Is Joni being ironic in her lyric, or bemoaning her own celebrity, or what? Bob NP James Taylor, "Carolina In My Mind" 4/25/70 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2003 07:09:07 -0700 From: "Mark or Travis" Subject: Re: "For Free" -> Joni as hypocrite? LONG > So howzabout it? I guess perhaps the question to begin with is > - does this guy interpret the song correctly? Is Joni being > ironic in her lyric, or bemoaning her own celebrity, or what? > > Bob > It's a moot point as far as I'm concerned. The guy is obviously some snot-nosed smart-ass, trying to be cute. Not worth the waste of paper & ink it takes to print the article (or the bandwidth, if that's the case). Mr. Cellophane ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2003 09:22:12 -0500 From: "Donna Binkley" Subject: Re: "For Free" -> Joni as hypocrite? LONG IMHO for someone who hates this song, seems like he spent quite a lot of time listening to and analyzing it. He memorized all the words. Usually when i don't like a song, i don't listen to it again. I wouldn't spend 15 paragraphs discussing it that's for sure. Maybe he's the hypocrit here... db This message has been scanned by the E250. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2003 10:33:32 -0400 From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: "For Free" -> Joni as hypocrite? In a message dated 7/18/2003 9:22:12 AM Eastern Standard Time, djb@binkleybarfield.com writes: > IMHO for someone who hates this song, seems like he spent > quite a lot of > time listening to and analyzing it. But that's sort of the point. I mean, it's one thing to simply say, "I hate this song" and leave it at that. It's a closeout with nowhere to go. However, when he obviously has given it some thought and taken the time & effort to digest the lyric and attempt to understand what the song is saying, and states WHY he hates the song in some detail, it's a different issue imo. Like I said, you have to get past the anti-Joni content to try and get a handle on his point. And I will add that WE do the same thing on this list; we'll easily dis an Eminem/Britney/Madonna song without even having heard it! At least this dude has taken the time to familiarize himself with his subject. Bob NP: Bruce Sringsteen, "Darkness On The Edge Of Town" ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2003 10:44:16 -0400 From: AzeemAK@aol.com Subject: Re: "For Free" -> Joni as hypocrite? LONG Mark wrote: << The guy is obviously some snot-nosed smart-ass, trying to be cute. >> Hear hear Mark! I think he's totally full of shit and has wilfully misinterpreted the song to shoehorn it into his half-baked theory about so-called self-pitying singer-songwriters. Lord knows I'm not averse to criticising Joni, but as far as I can see this is so far wide of the mark as to be risible. To me, the song is a thoughtful and even self-critical vignette about her privileged position and the money she earns from her art. The busker gives her (or should we say the song's narrator) pause for thought about her lifestyle. Perhaps she wishes for a moment that she could be free from the trappings and traps of music biz success; does that make it a self-pitying whinge? Only if you've already decided that everything she writes is self-pitying crap. As some wise person once observed, if the facts don't fit the theory, they must be disposed of. John B Morton? Pah! Azeem in London ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2003 10:50:22 -0400 From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: "For Free" -> Joni as hypocrite? In a message dated 7/18/2003 9:09:07 AM Eastern Standard Time, mark.travis@gte.net writes: > The guy is obviously some > snot-nosed smart-ass, trying to be cute. And with this response, you've sunk to his level. ;~) I, however know you to be more astute than this, so I know that you can see beyond his juvenile behavior. Let's put it this way: What is Joni trying to say with this song? Is she slyly insulting us, her audience, when she says: "And I play if you have the money Or if you're a friend to me But the one man band By the quick lunch stand He was playing real good for free Nobody stopped to hear him Though he played so sweet and high" In other words: Here's a guy playing great stuff totally free of charge and he's ignored. Meanwhile, the same people who ignore him will PAY and go to great lengths to see me, and I'm really no better. And what of HER response: "I meant to go over and ask for a song Maybe put on a harmony" Is she putting herself down as well? How would the song be different if she HAD decided not to cross at the light and went over there and put on that harmony? Bob NP: John Wesley Harding, "Jackson Cage" ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2003 07:56:35 -0700 (PDT) From: Jenny Goodspeed Subject: Re: "For Free" -> Joni as hypocrite? That's exactly what I was thinking Bob. You have to get past that initial reaction..."You think Joni sucks? Well...you suck too, so there!!" I found the piece very amusing, given where he's coming from. I mean the very music he loathes the most in this entire world is the music I love the most, so we're not gonna agree. Even so, I think he let his bias against self-referential singer/songwriter music get in the way of his interpretation. Self-pity? No. Joni was not wishing she was the guy on the street corner or saying whoa is me I wish I didn't have to ride in limos. I see it more as her exploration of what happens when your art becomes your commerce - is something sacrificed? Is the horn player's music worth any less because people aren't listening - b/c he isn't paid for making it? No. Maybe it's even worth a bit more. More than anyone else in the "singer/songwriter" genre, Joni perfectly balances the ability to reflect on herself and her life without treading into self-pitying or angsty waters or sounding like she's singing something she just wrote in her diary. This guy put a label on her before giving her an honest listen. ...like we all do at some time or another as you so aptly pointed out, Bob. ; ) Jenny SCJoniGuy@aol.com wrote: In a message dated 7/18/2003 9:22:12 AM Eastern Standard Time, djb@binkleybarfield.com writes: > IMHO for someone who hates this song, seems like he spent > quite a lot of > time listening to and analyzing it. But that's sort of the point. I mean, it's one thing to simply say, "I hate this song" and leave it at that. It's a closeout with nowhere to go. However, when he obviously has given it some thought and taken the time & effort to digest the lyric and attempt to understand what the song is saying, and states WHY he hates the song in some detail, it's a different issue imo. Like I said, you have to get past the anti-Joni content to try and get a handle on his point. And I will add that WE do the same thing on this list; we'll easily dis an Eminem/Britney/Madonna song without even having heard it! At least this dude has taken the time to familiarize himself with his subject. Bob NP: Bruce Sringsteen, "Darkness On The Edge Of Town" "Now I used to think that I was cool running around on fossil fuel, until I saw what I was doing was driving down the road to ruin..." JT SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2003 12:20:26 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: "For Free" -> Joni as hypocrite? LONG --- SCJoniGuy@aol.com wrote: > All disrespect to Joni aside, this writer (Colin B. > Morton writing > on the Captain Beefheart website) makes some > interesting points > regarding Joni's decision in the song "For Free". .... This guy's commentary cracked me right up. I get what he's talking about too, which is scary, but Joni still wins for me. > > So howzabout it? I guess perhaps the question to > begin with is > - does this guy interpret the song correctly? Is > Joni being > ironic in her lyric, or bemoaning her own celebrity, > or what? Both. (copout answer, I know, but that's our Lady of Multiplicity for you.) ===== Catherine Toronto ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2003 13:22:28 -0400 From: dsk Subject: Re: "For Free" -> Joni as hypocrite? LONG Great quote, Bob. Thanks for posting it. I love it when people get all emotional and passionate about something, like this guy has. There's a lot here to think about. First off, I'm always shocked by how some people hate Joni, really seem to hate her. I first realized that when reading messages somewhere around the time Joni and Kilauren found each other (not on this list, I think it was letters to the editor but don't recall the magazine) and there was one so hateful it was painful to read. The woman writer was furious at Joni and calling her so self-centered she not only gave up her child but even when she finds her child, Joni still makes it all about HERSELF! I felt bad for the writer. There was jealousy or something fierce going on inside her and Joni, a stranger, just plucked the strings. In a similar way that's happened with the guy who went to all the trouble to not only listen to Joni's song (and even give a name to the saxophonist; has anyone else ever heard of Lol Coxhill?), but also to think about it enough to get all riled up, and then take the time to write something about it. So the issues are obviously personally important to that guy. He does make it clear that it's not just Joni that he considers a "whiner", but it's interesting that he picks out that one song as the epitome of expressing self-pity. From my point of view, and without his inner baggage, he's missed the complexity of Joni's observations. She's enjoying the perks, the jewels, the limosine, the gentlemen escorts, resulting from the path she's chosen. I don't get the sense there's any "woe is me" for her in any of that. She's aware early on that music is her day job (and that painting comes first, which she's been saying for decades) and that, as with any day job that covers the rent when the passion is elsewhere, they are all about getting paid. She expresses some wistfulness at the idea of having passion for what she's spending so much time doing, and getting so much positive attention for. I have never been able to get my head around her claim that her music was just a day job for her, as though she has no passion for it. The intensity of the songs show me otherwise. However, in For Free and in other songs, and in many interviews, that is what she says. Someone long ago on this list speculated that she says "painting first" only to keep protected what is most important to her, and... maybe. My first thought, though, is that she's more straightforward than that, and her words about painting coming first have to be taken as her truth. She's always been businesslike and unromantic about her music, starting with setting up her own publishing company, and doing whatever it took to get paid for her work. Possibly incendiary comments alert: My guess is that part of the reason she married Chuck was to be able to work in the US, and that's as unromantic as a person can get. (And, yes, I know, there's the child story. I don't quite believe it. She's sharper than that when it comes to people, and I find it strange that she'd have no clue before she married him that Chuck would not be interested in helping raise her child.) As she claims, music has always been a way to make money for her, whereas so far she doesn't seem to mind doing paintings and just keeping them in storage, similar to the way the saxophonist played just because he loved doing it so much it didn't matter whether he was paid or not (or so she fantasizes), which is a completely romantic and old-fashioned idea about being an artist. So I do agree with the orginal annoyed-at-Joni writer's statements about being "... bound up with fashionable romantic notions of bohemianism." Unlike him, though, I don't see her as whining about it, but just trying to figure that all out. Debra Shea, who's so happy to see some people return from their fest-centered discussions that I've even stopped my playing to think and write about all this.... but now it's time to go out and play again... NPIMH: Joni singing "Summertime... [in the northern hemisphere] and the living is easy..." SCJoniGuy@aol.com sent us this message from a writer on another list: > > My least favourite song in the entire world, boys and girls, > happens to be an example of this latter genre. And the winner > isb& FOR FREE by Joni Mitchell! [snip] > What happens in this song that so invites my ire is this: La > Mitchell is walking down a street and she espies a man playing > solo clarinet "for free". Some say 'twas possibly the fine > improv soprano saxophonist Lol Coxhill. She is rather impressed > by his playing and speculates briefly about going over and > "putting on a har-mon-eeeee" but then the lights turn green > and she is off, back to the swish hotel from which she went > shopping for jooo-ew-els. [snip] > I hate this song because it is just about as hypocritically > self-pitying as a song can get. [snip] > At the heart of Mitchell's song is the assumption that the > dissemination of music by such capitalists, who care not a > jot for art, is somehow less noble than giving it away directly > to the public. This was bound up with fashionable romantic > notions of bohemianism. ... and then our Bob asks: > > So howzabout it? I guess perhaps the question to begin with is > - does this guy interpret the song correctly? Is Joni being > ironic in her lyric, or bemoaning her own celebrity, or what? ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2003 13:25:27 -0400 From: Deb Messling Subject: Re: "For Free" -> Joni as hypocrite? I always heard a self-criticism in the penultimate line "I heard his refrain as the signal changed," as if her contemplation of the situation lasted only as long as the red light. He sounded pretty good, but hey, the signal changed, and I gotta push on in the life I've chosen. At 10:50 AM 7/18/2003 -0400, you wrote: >And what of HER response: >"I meant to go over and ask for a song >Maybe put on a harmony" - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Deb Messling -^..^- messling@enter.net - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2003 15:08:37 EDT From: FMYFL@aol.com Subject: Woman of Heart and Mind I just read the full list of Emmy nominees, and WOHAM is up for two nominations. Sound Editing for Nonfiction Programming and Sound Mixing for Nonfiction Programming Go Joni, Go Joni, Jimmy ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2003 16:21:26 -0400 From: "Lama, Jim L'Hommedieu" Subject: RE: Cindy and Bryan welcome the tardy one Isn't it funny how completely exhausted adults look like they're at peace? ** CONGRATULATIONS ** Cindy & Bryan! Did you name Zoe after the President's daughter on "The West Wing"? Jim > From: Bryan Thomas - Soul Rock [mailto:soulrock@bryanthomas.com] > The tardy one is finally here. Zoe Ferrari Thomas arrived (15 > days late) with > eyes wide open Thursday, July 17 at 3:46 p.m, weighing in at 6 > lbs 7 oz. Mom > Cindy is recovering well from a C-section and should be home from > the hospital > by Monday. Proud papa Bryan has already posted a page of pics at > http://www.bryanthomas.com/zoe. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2003 17:24:51 EDT From: AzeemAK@aol.com Subject: Re: "For Free" -> Joni as hypocrite? LONG In a message dated 18/07/2003 18:19:46 GMT Daylight Time, dsk11@bellatlantic.net writes: << So the issues are obviously personally important to that guy. He does make it clear that it's not just Joni that he considers a "whiner", but it's interesting that he picks out that one song as the epitome of expressing self-pity. >> It seems almost wilfully perverse to choose this song to illustrate his thesis, when there are other songs that would seem to fit into it much more readily - - not that I agree with his basic premise anyway, I hasten to add. Anyone looking to denigrate self-pitying songs and singers should head for straight for the Diane Warren/Michael Bolton oeuvre, of which the very title "How Am I Supposed To Live Without You?" is the epitome. It reminds me of a piece in one of the film mags a while ago, where the ed. had decided to stick the knife into Clint Eastwood. Well, you would think there was plenty of ammo for anyone looking for it: liberals could decontruct the dodgy subtext of Dirty Harry et seq, while afficionados of rubbish films could dredge up The Gauntlet and Firefox, two of the most wretched cinematic dogs ever to be banished to the kennel. But no, the writer went for... Unforgiven! The attempted hatchet job failed miserably, of course, as the writer just didn't have a leg to stand on. Still, I'm sure he received his fee nonetheless. Azeem in London NP: still Tori ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2003 01:49:43 +0200 From: =?utf-8?Q?Emiliano_Pati=C3=B1o?= Subject: Re: "For Free" -> Joni as hypocrite? - ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Friday, July 18, 2003 3:41 PM Subject: "For Free" -> Joni as hypocrite? LONG > All disrespect to Joni aside, this writer (Colin B. Morton writing > on the Captain Beefheart website) makes some interesting points > regarding Joni's decision in the song "For Free". This is a cut > & paste and is sorta long, but it's all JC so hopefully nobody > will get too miffed by the length: > > "My least favourite genre of music... Hi, JMDLers! Grrrr....... You should know by know you Colin Morton and dear Bob (I love that quotes *you* pick...this almost peaks that In France They Kiss On MainStreet one!) I REALLY get MAD DOG if some of you unpiously touch "For Free": Really, reading an e-mail subject like ""For Free" -> Joni as hypocrite" returning home from holidays is quite a hard experience (I love that call-up signs): First, I agree with you, Mack, hypocrytical (cynical is most attacking) attitude is indeed part of human condition: Everyone of us must get hypocritical from time to time, BUT in a song? in this godly piece of life? In my humble opinion, hypocritical means something like "lying about one self, in order to excuse or even trying to rise at other's level (that fucking competition again) Not one but a really biased guy (BTW: what "indie pop wuss nusic" means? I got to know to hear it now! (maybe some first Ani, Shawn, our Kate, and Corry, and Stryngs...) noone in his senses's power, except driven by bad faith could disrepute For Free as Hypocritical! Anyone could indeed aim at this Song because its simple and archaic music (your friend Emi gets with it something... like Amadeus!) and its lyrics so gracefully depicting some moment at an Artist's Life, some minutes of doubt; so GRACEfully painting (excuse my repeating) that any listener find his/herself at one of these moments of glorious de'ja' vu after hearing such a Classic! I digress... Joni is not at all being hypocritical in "For Free": (I don't recall our SIQOMB false, well, maybe some BMR :-) Caressingly balancing (as this waltz does) the street musician that Plays Real Good For Free and the ShowBiz singer with her jeeeeeewels, her velvet curtains and her well-looking men (funny her hesitating through years) is by no means lying or trying to lie at herself: she's not redeeming her after that "brief encounter", not playing the hero or punk hero role in it: remember: it's a song: she could paint herself (after all, it was LOTC, she wasn't a famous singer still) stopping to talk to that man, have a real nice interaction and so and so and so on I can understand that speech's author's rage considering For Free's possible attitude as "I'm a well paid star but I have a taste for Real Good things in life, man!" placing myself on that beautiful-losers'n authentic-cool-trended shoes: "Naturally, I'm a Captain Beefheart fan: that song not deals with me..." (Bob, you set the point "is she slyly _and with a view from the top_ insulting us, her audience?" though you cut before the crucial line "They knew he had never Been on their t.v. So they passed his music by") Well, I must cut now (is somebody still there?), I find it rather *self-criticism* like Debra said. Good night to You All! Emiliano NP: (always choosing special goodbyes:) For Free, PBS special, broadcasted november '69, Newport Folk Festival? (Doug, I'm with you, I love music, MP3 music too) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2003 20:04:33 EDT From: Kardinel@aol.com Subject: Re: JMDL Digest V2003 #363 Garrison Kiellor read "For Free" on Writer's Almanac one morning. I was surprised to hear it. It's not Joni's best song but it's still good and an early song in her career. Kardinel ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2003 17:58:45 -0700 From: "Mark or Travis" Subject: Re: "For Free" -> Joni as hypocrite? > And with this response, you've sunk to his level. ;~) > His Bobness has spoken. I will speak no more. Mr. Cellophane ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2003 22:03:29 -0400 From: "michael o'malley" Subject: Joni and Buffy Of course, younger listers will be thinking `Vampire Slayer` but we older folks know that we're really talking about Buffy Sainte Marie, that other Canadian-cum-American singer from Saskatchewan. I just saw Buffy at our annual summer music festival here in Quebec City. She is a small woman with a great heart and a huge voice; somewhat astounding when one considers she was born in 1941, making her about 2 years older than Joni. Interesting paralells - came of age in the 60's and 70's, both turned to art making, both Canado-American. Buffy's still in excellent voice, very dynamic and cheerful, still singing her old hits, Up Where We Belong, Until Its Time For You to Go and Universal Soldier. A very warm an engaing performer, if not a bit dated in her musical sophistication and message. Hmm.... not sure what to make of that. Are Joni and Buffy still friendly? Michael in Quebec ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2003 23:09:31 -0400 From: "Lama, Jim L'Hommedieu" Subject: "For Free" -> Joni as hypocrite? LONG Joni Content? Is it possible? For someone who claims to "hate" that song, the guy on the Captain Beefheart list knows it thoroughly. :) I respect that he's bright enough to discuss the duality so well and in that way, he's one of us. He sees the contradiction that she PUT in there. I think that HE THINKS that she's unaware of her own conflicted nature. She's not. He calls 'For Free' as "hypocritically self-pitying as a song can get here. I can see that but to me, she's a hero. She feels the pull and doesn't go. Since she's living "The Examined Life", she writes about her conflicted feelings. Hey, it's not, "Dance, dance, dance. Let's make some ro- mance." There's a bit more to it and I think a Captain Beefheart fan sees that but he, himself, is conflicted about it. He understands it intellectually but as Rose will testify, it takes a leap of faith to get things goin'. Lama Can I get an amen, Rose? >>>What happens in this song that so invites my ire is this: La Mitchell is walking down a street and she espies a man playing solo clarinet "for free". Some say 'twas possibly the fine improv soprano saxophonist Lol Coxhill. She is rather impressed by his playing and speculates briefly about going over and "putting on a har-mon-eeeee" but then the lights turn green and she is off, back to the swish hotel from which she went shopping for jooo-ew-els. >>> ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2003 23:17:20 EDT From: PassScribe@aol.com Subject: Re: JoniFest Activities I'm sorry I can't get up to Full Moon for the Thursday & Friday activities but at least I was able to arrange all day & night Saturday & Sunday (leaving Monday morning). I hope all of you arriving early don't burn yourselves out by the time I get there.... save some songs and partying to share with the rest of us, eh? Anyone doing any songs/performance on piano? Since that's what I'm learning at the present, I'd be especially interested in catching whatever you'll be doing on the ivories. And, though I don't play guitar, I'd be interested in attending any workshops on alternate tunings. I assume there's some sort of itinary or schedule announced each day? I was checking out all the photos from past JoniFests on the website so I've already put some faces with names... doubt I'll remember them when I get there but at least it's a start. Kenny B ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2003 23:37:15 -0400 From: "Heather" Subject: RE: JoniFest Activities Remember to bring your bug repellant Jonifesters! The buggies are particularly aggressive now due to all the cooler weather we had early on this year. Heather - -----Original Message----- From: owner-joni@jmdl.com [mailto:owner-joni@jmdl.com]On Behalf Of PassScribe@aol.com Sent: Friday, July 18, 2003 11:17 PM To: joni@smoe.org Subject: Re: JoniFest Activities I'm sorry I can't get up to Full Moon for the Thursday & Friday activities but at least I was able to arrange all day & night Saturday & Sunday (leaving Monday morning). I hope all of you arriving early don't burn yourselves out by the time I get there.... save some songs and partying to share with the rest of us, eh? Anyone doing any songs/performance on piano? Since that's what I'm learning at the present, I'd be especially interested in catching whatever you'll be doing on the ivories. And, though I don't play guitar, I'd be interested in attending any workshops on alternate tunings. I assume there's some sort of itinary or schedule announced each day? I was checking out all the photos from past JoniFests on the website so I've already put some faces with names... doubt I'll remember them when I get there but at least it's a start. Kenny B ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2003 23:37:51 -0400 From: "Lama, Jim L'Hommedieu" Subject: Re: "For Free" -> Joni as hypocrite? Okay, now we're off the Critic and onto Joni Content. She's so conflicted on this song that it's fascinating. She's basically paralyzed yet in motion. She's mid-stream in her life, so much so that she barely notices and really only digests the moment in hindsight, like I do. Contrast this with "Pork Pie Hat" when she comes up out of the subway on the music (that) midnight makes. She and Don look up at the sign, up on the awning, and they GET IT AS IT GOES DOWN. "Pork Pie Hat Bar". She's totally in the Moment and she immediately realizes "There were two, brand new, little musicians dancing there, to-night." (S&L version, paraphrased by a 47-year-old memory.) Too bad she didn't say "are" and "here" instead of "were" and "there" because then she wouldn't have shifted tenses... but I digress. The thing is, when she wrote "For Free", she was a Prairie Girl testing her feet in the City and she Didn't Get It Right Yet. Later on, she moved more easily through the city. I may have to surrender my decoder ring when this is widely known but LADIES OF THE CANYON often strikes me, in places as cloying. Not today, though. Today I'm in tune with "Morning/Morgantown" and the later "California". What I really think of this Captain Beefheart fan is, "The Force is strong with this one. If he could be Turned, he would be a powerful ally." Maybe he tuned out before the cynical DJRD/Hejira period. He'd dig it. np: stuff I'm not allowed to divulge Lama, having a margarita. It's okay though. I'm in training. :) SC JoniGuy said, >>>> And what of HER response: "I meant to go over and ask for a song Maybe put on a harmony" Is she putting herself down as well? How would the song be different if she HAD decided not to cross at the light and went over there and put on that harmony?>>>> ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2003 20:52:37 -0700 From: "kakki" Subject: Re: "For Free" -> Joni as hypocrite? I think someone should write to that guy from the Capt. Beefheart list and tell him that the Capt. and Joni are/were good old friends and fellow painters. Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2003 20:58:11 -0700 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: "For Free" -> Joni as hypocrite? LONG >I hate this song because it is just about as hypocritically self-pitying as a song can get.< for free is self pitying? self-effacing maybe...ironic observation definitely...this dude's brain has been left in the marinade too long...& he's got an axe to grind for sure...hope he's not an actual reviewer as stuff like this gives the profession a bad name... kate www.katebennett.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2003 23:53:06 -0400 From: "Lama, Jim L'Hommedieu" Subject: Re: "For Free" -> Joni as hypocrite? LONG On behalf of my client, James L'Hommedieu, I demand that you, Catherine of Toronto, Cease and Desist immediately. Your phrase, "....that's our Lady of Multiplicity for you.) is clearly infringing on my client's trademarked phrase "Our Lady Of Duality". We know where you live! You guys have no idea how thankful I am for spell checking tonight. Horschak's Mom PS, By popular demand, I'll post a link to my essay "Our Lady Of Duality" but really people, let's keep the accolades down to a dull roar. I don't want to upstage our Queen, her majesty Lucy II. Is the doctor in, Lucy? http://www.jonimitchell.com/Duality.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2003 20:56:54 -0700 From: "Paul Meyer-Strom" Subject: Re: "For Free" -> Joni as hypocrite? A bit tangentially, I had somehow understood that the singer in this song was James Taylor, perhaps metaphorically. Had anyone else had that impression? paul ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2003 00:47:02 -0400 From: "Lama, Jim L'Hommedieu" Subject: "For Free" -> Joni as hypocrite? LONG Debra, I'm not an expert but I play one when I write posts. I have a perspective for you on this question. Joni was conflicted about seeing the freedom of the street musician. She was conflicted about getting wealth, status, and adoration for her work. She was conflicted about the demand to be a human jukebox. Finally, she felt that her skin was like cellophane; she had see-through skin. I *know* you're with me so far. The only logical thing to do was to get back to the Garden. Build a garret. Reclaim her amateur status. ..... Transformed, her true self, the painter who only pleases herself, was thus restored. Complete again, she is able to go *TO* the city without BECOMING the shut-down Urbanite that conflicts her. Her true self is the amateur painter, and her Pose is the Urbanite. Dignity restored, she was free to work with the creme-de-la-creme of Miles band and create multi-cultural, intellectual, yet accessible work. She's not a pro or a sellout. She's an amateur, working her day job, a projection of her True Self into the City. What amateur wouldn't want to live out a fantasy like that? It was only real to US!! Two Cents. [Damn, this was supposed to be my Chapter Four or Five, "Cloak For The City". Mags, are you reading this?] Lama DSK wrote: >>She's aware early on that music is her day job (and that painting comes first, which she's been saying for decades) and that, as with any day job that covers the rent when the passion is elsewhere, they are all about getting paid. >> ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2003 00:57:01 -0400 From: "Lama, Jim L'Hommedieu" Subject: Re: "For Free" -> Joni as hypocrite? LONG Okay, we've discussed "For Free" many times before but this is really a very insightful observation. Wow. DSK said, >As she claims, music has always been a way to make money for her, whereas so far she doesn't seem to mind doing paintings and just keeping them in storage, similar to the way the saxophonist played just because he loved doing it so much it didn't matter whether he was paid or not> Lama, who's been on a total Joni tear for hours..... np: For Free on LADIES OF THE CANYON, and no, I'm not lying. np2: Now it's "Conversation" which will FOREVER be Claud9 San Soucie's song to me. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2003 01:21:43 -0400 From: "Lama, Jim L'Hommedieu" Subject: RE: "For Free" -> Joni as hypocrite? New duo: "The Captain And Joan in Chenille" Lama > From: kakki [mailto:kakkib@vzavenue.net] > I think someone should write to that guy from the Capt. Beefheart list and > tell him that the Capt. and Joni are/were good old friends and fellow > painters. ------------------------------ End of onlyJMDL Digest V2003 #229 ********************************* ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she? (http://www.siquomb.com/siquomb.cfm)