From: les@jmdl.com (onlyJMDL Digest) To: onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Subject: onlyJMDL Digest V2003 #132 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/onlyjoni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com Unsubscribe: mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe onlyJMDL Digest Tuesday, April 15 2003 Volume 2003 : Number 132 Sign up now for JoniFest 2003! http://www.jonifest.com ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: Joni on American Masters ... ["kakki" ] Re: The "real" Joni ["kakki" ] Re: Joni and the young women folk ["kakki" ] Re: spirituality & Joni [Jerry Notaro ] suburbs [Dave Cuneo ] Re: I's A Muggin' [Murphycopy@aol.com] Re: spirituality & Joni [SoulQuest7@aol.com] Re: Joni and the young women folk [Jerry Notaro ] sorrow and affectation [twoshoes@sasktel.net] Re: sorrow and affectation [magsnbrei ] Re: sorrow and affectation [Little Bird ] Re: sorrow and affectation [FMYFL@aol.com] Re: timeline on Ameican Masters/pgs.org website [Richard Goldman ] Re: NAMBLA & Joni being influenced by Native American spirituality [col] byt 1970 ["chuty001" ] Re: Joni being influenced by Native American spirituality [Deb Messling <] suburbs [] Re: sorrow and affectation [Catherine McKay ] Re: suburbs [Randy Remote ] Re: Joni being influenced by Native American spirituality [SoulQuest7@aol] Re: suburbs [Catherine McKay ] Girlz Doin' Girlz - Thu Apr 17 ["T Taitt" ] the burbs.... [RoseMJoy@aol.com] Re: I's A Muggin' ["hell" ] Re: I's A Muggin' [Catherine McKay ] Tape of Woman of Heart and Mind ["Susan" ] Re: Gertrude Stein of music SJC [Susan Guzzi ] Re: sorrow and affectation ["kerry" ] Re: Gertrude Stein of music SJC ["hell" ] RE: Gertrude Stein of music SJC ["theodore" ] (no subject) [Aerchak@aol.com] Re: Down to You [Bobsart48@aol.com] Re: sorrow and affectation [quiltbear ] RE: snow and other smells..now with Joni content/question [quiltbear ] RE: Gertrude Stein of music SJC ["theodore" ] Re: sorrow and affectation ["Lama, Jim L'Hommedieu" ] Today's Library Links: April 15 [ljirvin@jmdl.com] Joni on Video! 100% JC ["Lama, Jim L'Hommedieu" ] Re: Gertrude Stein of music SJC ["kakki" ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 00:15:31 -0700 From: "kakki" Subject: Re: Joni on American Masters ... Lama wrote: > By pausing on Mr. Guerin, Lacy *did* give us HOSL. I've never heard a > thread about what Guerin brought or didn't bring to the stew. We've never > discussed him like we have the CSN(Y) vowels, the JT angle as "Boston Jim", > the Don Alias quote "Don & me we look up on the awning- it says "Pork Pie > Hat Bar'." > > Is Guerin a jazzer? I posted about meeting him at a small show here a couple years ago. He is just about the most incredible drummer I have ever seen/heard. He's a jazzer and everything else. We talked at the bar during the break. He sort of bragged about co-writing Hissing - I gathered that the music side was pretty much all his on that song. (And now, writing like Kakki ;-) I wasn't very impressed with him on the Joni content side. Didn't give much credit to Joni and gave the impression that her output during that time was all because of him. But he is an astounding drummer and musician. Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 01:37:31 -0700 From: "kakki" Subject: Re: The "real" Joni Andrew wrote: > Famous people don't owe us anything just like we don't > owe it to them to be forever loyal. And assuming we > could ever know the "real" Joni is a bit far fetched. Great points. I don't know how I'd feel if she acted arrogant or rude the first time I saw her perform live. I probably would be disappointed. Most artists I've seen have seemed naturally engaged with their audience or at least put up a good front. Quite a few people on the list have either known her or met her in the early days or have met her in the past few years at her art shows, after concerts or here and there. Every account written here has been 100% positive and consistent as to her approachability, warmth and friendliness. She does like to talk a lot and I have always thought the reason she sometimes might sound arrogant in written interviews is because only snippets of her conversation get included and are often probably reported out of context. She also comes across as honest, witty and has a sense of humor. I think a lot can get lost in interpretation if one only reads the words but can't see the twinkle in her eye or hear the joking tone in her voice. Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 02:25:48 -0700 From: "kakki" Subject: Re: Joni and the young women folk Kate wrote: > shawn colvin is up there, imo...i don't know if joni ever has said anything > about shawn but she contributed a teensy bit to shawn's fat city album (with > klein producing) She has spoken very positively about Shawn a few times in interviews. She also likes Julia Fordham and helped set her up with Klein as a producer. And recall that she recently gave big kudos to Norah Jones, too. Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 08:53:35 -0400 From: Jerry Notaro Subject: Re: spirituality & Joni I think she mentions all these influences because she reads so much about philosophy and theology. But I don't think she follows any of them as a regimen. Jerry SoulQuest7@aol.com wrote: >I've heard spirituality mentioned a few times on this since I joined a week >ago. I'm very interested in the topic of pop music and spirituality. Does >anyone know what Joni is into? I just watched some Joni videos sent to me via >the Joni tree, and I heard her mention influences such as Krishnamurti (an >independent philosopher who was raised in the Theosophica Society), Chungyo >Trumpa (the Tibetan Buddhist teacher who inspired Allen Ginsberg), and Joseph >Campbell (a mythologist interested in interfaith studies). I even heard her >make an odd reference to Scientology in one of her early appearances on the >BBC. Was she ever involved in that sect? If anyone knows anything, let me >know. ==- om==- Nick ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 09:11:08 -0400 From: Dave Cuneo Subject: suburbs Ciao Joniphiles, I grew up in New York City and now live in the "suburbs" of Wilmington, DE. I love it! I hate the city. I love having a garage with an automatic opener, a lawn and garden, a house that is way too big for just me, a cellar where I can keep all my vino. Suburbs rule, dudes. "But I love that Joni spears that perfect suburban image and roasts it on her patio BBQ for everyone to see! By 1975 it was about time..." Hey, the Monkees beat her to it with "Pleasant Valley Sunday" and the Kinks did an early song about this topic too but I don't remember the name of it. Ciao, dave. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 09:36:52 EDT From: Murphycopy@aol.com Subject: Re: I's A Muggin' Hell writes: << I was browsing the JMDL articles today, and found something interesting (at least I thought it was.....) >> Darn you to heck, Hell! I just "discovered" the same thing last week, but hadn't written about it! But my source for the photo was the Sue Mingus book about Charles. (I think it's called "Every Night at Noon.") Take care, --Bob ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 09:37:04 EDT From: SoulQuest7@aol.com Subject: Re: spirituality & Joni In a message dated 4/14/2003 5:57:09 AM Pacific Daylight Time, notaro@bayflash.stpt.usf.edu writes: > < about philosophy and theology. But I don't think she follows any of them > as a regimen.>>> > Yes, but reading a lot about theology says a lot about her spirituality, especially if Joseph Campbell is a major influence. He was very influenced by the Upanishads, a set of Hindu scriptures that he said placed the emphasis on internal mystical experience. He believed, in a similar way to people like Aldous Huxley and Huston Smith, that there was a core wisdom to many world religions, and that at the point of mysticism they converge. This would make sense considering the comments I heard by Joni on the TV show. In fact, she seem to be saying basically the same thing. I'll have to listen to it again at some point, and will quote it on the list. -=== om--- Nick ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 09:41:32 -0400 From: Jerry Notaro Subject: Re: Joni and the young women folk kakki wrote: > > >She has spoken very positively about Shawn a few times in interviews. She >also likes Julia Fordham and helped set her up with Klein as a producer. >And recall that she recently gave big kudos to Norah Jones, too. > > This is wonderful to know, Kakki. I have often heard Shawn speak in the most glowing terms about Joni. Julia is a fave of mine and she played for our Pridefest here last year. And I'm glad that Norah gets the nod from Joni, considering all the hype, hoopla, and chart success surrounding her. Jerry ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 08:33:30 -0600 From: twoshoes@sasktel.net Subject: Gertrude Stein of music from Les's interview with Joni: > But arrogance? No, I think it could be better described as confidence. Mmm hmmm. Confidence in a woman is often construed as arrogance. Confidence in a man is simply expected. There was talk of the few women in Joni's life, how she likes to be one of the boys. This could be an unconscious aligning with the sex that is seen as more powerful, more highly regarded, etc., and is quite common. Homey example: For a feminist daughter, "You are just like your dad!" is seen as a compliment, because what males have/had/are in this culture is considered worthy. "You're just like your mom" would be much less desirable. I was one of those daughters, before I realized why I was thinking that way. Who wants to be like a woman, without the power and respect men claim(ed) without question in a society like ours? For a woman to be 'one of the boys' and admired and respected by them is/was considered (especially in Joni's generation, though this wouldn't always be a conscious attitude) a step up on the rung of social position. Boys are still commonly insulted by being called a 'girl.' But it doesn't work the other way around. Exceptions abound, of course. But this is what I think every time I see Joni seeming to be proud to be 'one of the boys.' No offence fellas, but that should not be a compliment to any woman. Have you ever heard of a man who bragged about being 'one of the girls'? I haven't. Kate - -- http://xoetc.antville.org Who does she think she is, Anaos Nin? ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 08:08:58 -0700 (PDT) From: Little Bird Subject: Re: suburbs Dave wrote: "Hey, the Monkees beat her to it with 'Pleasant Valley Sunday' and the Kinks did an early song about this topic too but I don't remember the name of it." Hence the reason we all know that Joni did it best! love Andrew Yahoo! Tax Center - File online, calculators, forms, and more http://tax.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 10:50:28 -0600 From: twoshoes@sasktel.net Subject: sorrow and affectation > From: colin > Today we went up north to collect a bitch for Harvey to shag, Lovely, Austin. > From: "Lama, Jim L'Hommedieu" > Subject: weird joni pronunciation. > I think these are artful affectations. Exactly what I think when I watch her perform. Only Canadians (half-joking here) can't STAND affectations, so when I watch Joni sing it almost irritates me / though I'm not so sure her way of twisting a word at the end of a line is really an affectation, for her; it just looks like one. > s-oh-rr-oh. Now THAT'S sad. It IS sad. When she sings this word at the end of Little Green (on Blue), it breaks my heart for her. I know she is talking about herself and her own loss, and it's exactly because she sings it the way she does that I am sure of this. Talk about heartfelt. This is no affectation on Joni's part. SORE-OH is how we pronounce it in Sask. And that's how it sounds to me when she sings it, though she draws it out. > From: "Kate Bennett" > to alleviate any misunderstandings, i just thought i'd point out to any > newcomers that colin raises dogs... Ah!! That's better. Kate - -- http://xoetc.antville.org Who does she think she is, Anaos Nin? ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 11:02:22 -0700 (PDT) From: magsnbrei Subject: Re: sorrow and affectation This is no affectation on Joni's part. SORE-OH is how we pronounce it in Sask. And that's how it sounds to me when she sings it, though she draws it out. It's how I say sore-oh too. (born and raised in southern ontario and have lived east and west and do take note of the different Canadian accents..) I never noticed this is how I pronounce it until Ashara told me yesterday that she pronounces it sahroh. sahrry ... And for the record..when Joni sings that drawn out sorrow in Little Green, it breaks my heart too, every time. Mags, np: Deb Talan A Good Days Work. from Something Burning. You open my heart, you do. Yes you do. - JM Yahoo! Tax Center - File online, calculators, forms, and more ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 12:38:40 -0700 (PDT) From: Little Bird Subject: Re: sorrow and affectation Doesn't everyone pronounce "Sorrow" as "sore-oh?" I can't think of any other pronunciation of that particular word. It's not Canadian, it's just plain english.... right? - -AN-DROO Yahoo! Tax Center - File online, calculators, forms, and more http://tax.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 15:57:59 EDT From: FMYFL@aol.com Subject: Re: sorrow and affectation In a message dated 4/14/2003 3:39:32 PM Eastern Daylight Time, littlebird3333@yahoo.com writes: > Doesn't everyone pronounce "Sorrow" as "sore-oh?" I > can't think of any other pronunciation of that > particular word. It's not Canadian, it's just plain > english.... right? > I think it's just an accent thing Andrew. Down in the south, we pronounce it 'sar oh. Of course some of us crackers could stretch it into 3 or 4 syllabels :~) Jimmy ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 13:17:21 -0700 From: Richard Goldman Subject: Re: timeline on Ameican Masters/pgs.org website The timeline is fabulous, thank you! I love that it goes up to 2008 and beyond ... ~Richard - --------- >The timeline, of which Deb Messling spoke is at: > >http://www.pbs.org/wnet/americanmasters/database/mitchell_j.html > >If you were "there" a few weeks ago, you may have to delete all your >"cookies" or force your browser to "refresh". I think it's the same URL >that had just a couple of paragraphs until last week. > >To hit the Timeline directly, use this: > >http://www.pbs.org/wnet/americanmasters/database/mitchell_j_timeline_flash.h >tml > >Holy cow. Messling was right about finding a gem on that timeline! Thanks, >Deb. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 16:21:22 EDT From: Aerchak@aol.com Subject: Re:NAMBLA & Joni being influenced by Native American spirituality Firstly, I think I am going to have to return to "joni-only" because of this seemingly neverending NAMBLA thread. Secondly, I am surprised no one has mentioned the influence Native Amercian culture and spirituality has had on her. She has spoken of this on numerous occasions. Andrea ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 17:02:32 EDT From: SoulQuest7@aol.com Subject: Re: Joni being influenced by Native American spirituality In a message dated 4/14/2003 1:22:34 PM Pacific Daylight Time, Aerchak@aol.com writes: > << mentioned the influence Native Amercian culture and spirituality has had on > her. She has spoken of this on numerous occasions>>> Joseph Campbell spent a long time studying Native American Indian spirituality and history. Did Joni ever mention any books or authors of Native Americans that she was influenced by? Did I hear her say she was very influenced by Carlos Castenada, or am I confusing this with someone else? =-== om--- Nick ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 22:25:02 +0100 From: colin Subject: Re: sorrow and affectation no. i say sorrow with a short o not a long one as in sore. It's your accent ;-) Little Bird wrote: >Doesn't everyone pronounce "Sorrow" as "sore-oh?" I >can't think of any other pronunciation of that >particular word. It's not Canadian, it's just plain >english.... right? > >-AN-DROO >Yahoo! Tax Center - File online, calculators, forms, and more >http://tax.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 22:26:12 +0100 From: colin Subject: Re: NAMBLA & Joni being influenced by Native American spirituality Aerchak@aol.com wrote: >Firstly, I think I am going to have to return to "joni-only" because of this >seemingly neverending NAMBLA thread. > oh we wouldn't want that would we? hey guys we had better stop. > Secondly, I am surprised no one has >mentioned the influence Native Amercian culture and spirituality has had on >her. She has spoken of this on numerous occasions. > >Andrea ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 17:53:59 -0400 From: "chuty001" Subject: byt 1970 I've posted a clip of BYT isle 1970 on my site if your interested. It's in WMV format zipped. Enjoy http://www.geocities.com/dreamflattires/JoniBYT1970.zip Chuck ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 18:13:26 -0400 From: Deb Messling Subject: Re: Joni being influenced by Native American spirituality The song "Don Juan's Reckless Daughter" clearly refers to Don Juan of the Castaneda books, as well to Don Juan the romantic rogue. At 05:02 PM 4/14/2003 -0400, you wrote: > Did I hear her say she was >very influenced by Carlos Castenada, or am I confusing this with someone >else? =-== om--- Nick - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Deb Messling -^..^- messling@enter.net - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 18:31:50 -0400 From: Subject: suburbs I'm pretty sure "Pleasant Valley Sunday" was a Carole King/Gerry Goffin tune. After that came "Subdivisions" (Rush). Before it was that Pete Seeger ditty about "they're all made of ticky-tacky and they all look just the same." I suppose Annie Ross predated that...... with "Centerpiece" of course, which brings us full-circle. Lama BTW, no one's ever said I'm one of the girls, luckily for them. Ironically, if they said that as a mechanic I "take after" my father it would be an insult though. He never so much as changed plugs his whole life. On the other hand, if someone said that I "learned something about composition" from my mother, that would be a compliment. Almost all of the women in my family were art teachers or models. Dad kept to himself except for the time he inherited a 100 year old drop leaf table. He went right down to Sears and bought an electric sander so he could "restore" it by destroying every bit of patina and character in it. I give him points for thoroughness. I learned to ask advice from as many people as possible before doing something "brave" with a collectible. BTW, one of my mother's paintings is coated with a rich, thick layer of tar and nicotine. I can take that right down with diluted Simple Green and a household sponge, right? NOT! ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 19:12:45 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: sorrow and affectation --- twoshoes@sasktel.net wrote: > > From: "Lama, Jim L'Hommedieu" > > s-oh-rr-oh. Now THAT'S sad. > > It IS sad. When she sings this word at the end of > Little Green (on Blue), it > breaks my heart for her. I know she is talking about > herself and her own > loss, and it's exactly because she sings it the way > she does that I am sure > of this. Talk about heartfelt. > > This is no affectation on Joni's part. SORE-OH is > how we pronounce it in > Sask. And that's how it sounds to me when she sings > it, though she draws it > out. > To me, Americans *all* sound like they say "sarrow" (or maybe it's "sah-row.") But then again, the Americans nearest Toronto are from western New York, y'know, towns like Rachester and Tanawanda, so maybe it's just them. ===== Catherine Toronto ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 16:33:39 -0700 From: Randy Remote Subject: Re: suburbs jlamadoo@fuse.net wrote: > BTW, one of my mother's paintings is coated with a rich, thick layer of tar and nicotine. I can take that right down with diluted Simple Green and a household sponge, right? Or you can take it to any car mechanic that has a steam-cleaner. If it'll take gunk off an engine, yer pitcher shouldn't be any problem. Another helpful hint ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 20:19:00 EDT From: SoulQuest7@aol.com Subject: Re: Joni being influenced by Native American spirituality In a message dated 4/14/2003 3:21:01 PM Pacific Daylight Time, messling@enter.net writes: > < Castaneda books, as well to Don Juan the romantic rogue.>>> > Very interesting. I noticed that Peter Gabriel gaver her the Billboard Century Award and introduced her. Perhaps Joni's percussion segments on "Don Juan" LP influenced him to do his percussion-drenched song "Rhythm of the Heat" which was lyrically influenced by Carl Jung. This is very fascinating. - -=- om-=-= Nick ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 20:24:35 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: suburbs --- jlamadoo@fuse.net wrote: > I'm pretty sure "Pleasant Valley Sunday" was a > Carole King/Gerry Goffin tune. After that came > "Subdivisions" (Rush). Before it was that Pete > Seeger ditty about > "they're all made of ticky-tacky > and they all look just the same." ... written by Malvina Reynolds (sp?) ===== Catherine Toronto ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 20:34:11 -0400 From: "T Taitt" Subject: Girlz Doin' Girlz - Thu Apr 17 Hey everyone, Just wanted let those of you who don't know (and remind those of you who do) about Girlz Doin' Girlz, the tribute to Canadian female singer-songwriters taking place this Thursday, April 17, at Clinton's in Toronto. The show starts at 8:30 and runs until midnight, and features ten of Toronto's up-and-coming indie female musicians performing the songs of Canadian women who've inspired them and legions of fans. Acts performing include Lindi, Kathryn Rose and Likewater. Artists whose work is being performed include Joni Mitchell, Sarah McLachlan, Jane Siberry and Sarah Harmer. Doors open at 8 and cover is $8. Should be a lovely show (and there's no work the next day!) so check it out. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 20:50:17 EDT From: RoseMJoy@aol.com Subject: the burbs.... I remember when Joni's Hissing album was released .....I had a backyard and a swimming pool......now I live where the bottles break and the neighbor's music keeps me up at night....I stole that from John Gorka...hell... I've got a whore that lives below me and Luca ;~( NP: Dylan : Just Like A Woman In the morning there are lovers in the street They look so high You brush against a stranger And you both apologize ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 13:36:16 +1200 From: "hell" Subject: Re: I's A Muggin' Bob wrote: > Darn you to heck, Hell! I just "discovered" the same thing last week, but > hadn't written about it! But my source for the photo was the Sue Mingus book > about Charles. (I think it's called "Every Night at Noon.") HA, HA, HA, HA, HA!!!!! Nyah, nyah, nyah-nyah, nyah! Now that I've gotten that out of my system....... ;o) I find it interesting that Joni used this method, because it may mean she uses it quite frequently in developing her art-work/paintings. I always assumed she took photographs herself, and worked from those - meaning that she was "composing" the picture when she took it. But this one was obviously not taken by her (since she's in it) - I assume it was taken by Sue Mingus? I've done a couple of pictures/drawings using this method, ie. working from a photograph, but I always felt it to be a little "plagiaristic" if I didn't take the picture myself. Especially since I consider (as I assume most people do) that photography is an art-form in itself. I guess if she had the permission of the photographer it's OK, but where would you draw the line? I know they're entirely different mediums, and the end results are quite different, but the painting is definitely derived directly from that photograph. Hell ___________________________________ "To have great poets, there must be great audiences too." - Walt Whitman Hell's Home Page - NEW & IMPROVED! http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~hell/index.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 22:12:17 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: I's A Muggin' --- hell wrote: > I find it interesting that Joni used this method, > because it may mean she > uses it quite frequently in developing her > art-work/paintings. I always > assumed she took photographs herself, and worked > from those - meaning that > she was "composing" the picture when she took it. > But this one was > obviously not taken by her (since she's in it) - I > assume it was taken by > Sue Mingus? Well, she COULD have taken it herself if she used a camera on a tripod and a timer and all that, but I suspect she didn't. And she is in a lot of her own paintings, so I'd guess someone else took the photos. > I've done a couple of pictures/drawings using this > method, ie. working from > a photograph, but I always felt it to be a little > "plagiaristic" if I didn't > take the picture myself. Especially since I > consider (as I assume most > people do) that photography is an art-form in > itself. I guess if she had > the permission of the photographer it's OK, but > where would you draw the > line? I know they're entirely different mediums, > and the end results are > quite different, but the painting is definitely > derived directly from that > photograph. My ex used to do this too. Still does. If you're painting people, who can afford to hire a model; and who that you're not paying would want to sit still for so long? Even landscapes change, because as the day goes by, the angle of the light and the shadows moves around; and it's never the same the next day either. I agree, if you use your own photos, that's not a problem and who could argue with it? It does get very dicy if you use someone else's photo - you could get sued! Especially if it's a famous photo, definitely a no-no. My ex used to do illustrations for a column in the Toronto Sun (that rag) called Max Haines Crime Flashback. He used photos from the photo morgue and he would often use photos of famous people. His boss used to get so mad if it looked too much like someone famous, so he'd try to make it look different by changing the hair or something. Sometimes it worked and sometimes it didn't. ===== Catherine Toronto ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 21:19:17 -0500 From: "Susan" Subject: Tape of Woman of Heart and Mind My husband caught this new documentary and loved it. I, on vacation, missed it. Does anyone know where I might get a DVD or a tape of it? I've tried searching on the internet to no avail. Thanks! Susan ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 19:19:32 -0700 (PDT) From: Susan Guzzi Subject: Re: Gertrude Stein of music SJC Hi Kate, Nice post, I couldn't agree with you more here. - --- twoshoes@sasktel.net wrote: > Mmm hmmm. Confidence in a woman is often construed as arrogance. Confidence > in a man is simply expected. > > There was talk of the few women in Joni's life, how she likes to be one of > the boys. This could be an unconscious aligning with the sex that is seen as > more powerful, more highly regarded, etc., and is quite common. > I agree, I have met several women in my life who brag proudly about this being the case. To each his or her own but it always makes me a bit sad and a bit insulted. On the other hand I also think how fortunate I am to have the alliances with women that i do and feel for her not to be able to connect with her sisters as I do. Kate wrote: > For a woman to be 'one of the boys' and admired and respected by them is/was > considered (especially in Joni's generation, though this wouldn't always be > a conscious attitude) a step up on the rung of social position. Boys are > still commonly insulted by being called a 'girl.' But it doesn't work the > other way around. Here is my only slight disagreement Kate. When I was growing up into the dyke I am, my mother often told me I acted like a boy, as to insult me. I was considered to be - and I hate this word as I find it moot - a tomboy. My bone of contention with this word, no pun intended, is this: If a tomboy is a girl who acts like a boy, yet a significant number, if not a majority of women say they were this ... than does that not mean they were just girls acting like little girls? Hence the word is meaningless. Regardless it was used as an insult against me and often. > Kate wrote: > Exceptions abound, of course. But this is what I think every time I see Joni > seeming to be proud to be 'one of the boys.' No offence fellas, but that > should not be a compliment to any woman. > I agree, I wish Joni had more girlfriends and respected them as much. JONI! Come out to Jonifest and play with us girls for a weekend! Seems her best and one of Joni's only girlfriends in music was Cass Elliot, not such a bad choice, but it makes me wonder if Cass was the same as Joni or just an exception to Joni's taste. Kate asked: > Have you ever heard of a man who bragged about being 'one of the girls'? > > I haven't. Only Ted. > http://xoetc.antville.org > Who does she think she is, Anaos Nin? I love Anais Nin! One of my top fave writers of all time! Peace, Susan The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo http://search.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 21:30:37 -0500 From: "kerry" Subject: Re: sorrow and affectation Since spending lots of time with Hell, I've realized that you can't just refer to short or long vowels between people with different accents. It's also virtually impossible to write words (as you say them) phonetically, because they would be pronounced in different ways depending on who's speaking. Also the "o" in sorrow is an "r-controlled" vowel, so it's different than a short "o." Okay, I'll stop now! (I deal with this every day at work, so it's hard to turn off!) Kerry > no. i say sorrow with a short o not a long one as in sore. It's your > accent ;-) > > Little Bird wrote: > > >Doesn't everyone pronounce "Sorrow" as "sore-oh?" I > >can't think of any other pronunciation of that > >particular word. It's not Canadian, it's just plain > >english.... right? > > > >-AN-DROO > >Yahoo! Tax Center - File online, calculators, forms, and more > >http://tax.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 14:52:19 +1200 From: "hell" Subject: Re: Gertrude Stein of music SJC Susan wrote: > I agree, I wish Joni had more girlfriends and respected them as much. JONI! Come out to Jonifest > and play with us girls for a weekend! If Joni was going to Jonifest, I'd sell everything I own to be there! > Seems her best and one of Joni's only girlfriends in music was Cass Elliot, not such a bad choice, > but it makes me wonder if Cass was the same as Joni or just an exception to Joni's taste. I think Cass was an exception to the "norm" of the time, but probably similar to Joni in her attitude to the music business. In a video documentary I have, Denny Doherty relates drinking boiler-makers under a table in a bar with Cass, and describes her as "a woman after my own heart...." which I took to mean she was "one of the boys". In that regard, maybe Joni viewed her as being like herself - trying to make it as a serious artist in a man's world. CSN were also good friends of Cass, which also makes me think she socialised with "the boys" more than with women. On that subject (or slightly off-subject, maybe!) John Phillips admitted he initially didn't want Cass in The Mamas and Papas because she didn't fit his "image" of what the group should look like, regardless of how well she sang. Eventually good sense prevailed, because she certainly had an incredible voice. On the same video, another person associated with The Mamas and Papas (I forget his name for the moment - Jon something!) said how "smart" it was for John to put Michelle out the front because she was so pretty - no mention of her musical ability. If that was the prevailing attitude of the time, it doesn't surprise me that Joni preferred to be thought of as "one of the boys", therefore regarded on the same terms and by the same merits, as opposed to just "a pretty girl who could sing". Hell ___________________________________ "To have great poets, there must be great audiences too." - Walt Whitman Hell's Home Page - NEW & IMPROVED! http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~hell/index.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 20:02:05 -0700 From: "theodore" Subject: RE: Gertrude Stein of music SJC Well I have to admit I'd rather be one the gals, than one of the good ole boys or something like that. I just like to connect with the sisters, and these days, the mothers, too. And I'll trade you Hemingway for Gertrude, any day. Well if you need something to brag about you can say I let you hang with me online. Sista Theodora (I'm in touch with my feminine parts) "well there's some things you can't cover up with lipstick and powder, I heard you mention my name can't you talk any louder? are you gonna say the words I wanna hear? I suppose I'll just have to play it by ear, I just wanna hear girl's talk." Nick Lowe - -----Original Message----- From: owner-joni@jmdl.com [mailto:owner-joni@jmdl.com] On Behalf Of Susan Guzzi Sent: Monday, April 14, 2003 7:20 PM To: twoshoes@sasktel.net Cc: joni@smoe.org Subject: Re: Gertrude Stein of music SJC Hi Kate, Nice post, I couldn't agree with you more here. - --- twoshoes@sasktel.net wrote: > Mmm hmmm. Confidence in a woman is often construed as arrogance. Confidence > in a man is simply expected. > > There was talk of the few women in Joni's life, how she likes to be one of > the boys. This could be an unconscious aligning with the sex that is seen as > more powerful, more highly regarded, etc., and is quite common. > I agree, I have met several women in my life who brag proudly about this being the case. To each his or her own but it always makes me a bit sad and a bit insulted. On the other hand I also think how fortunate I am to have the alliances with women that i do and feel for her not to be able to connect with her sisters as I do. Kate wrote: > For a woman to be 'one of the boys' and admired and respected by them is/was > considered (especially in Joni's generation, though this wouldn't always be > a conscious attitude) a step up on the rung of social position. Boys are > still commonly insulted by being called a 'girl.' But it doesn't work the > other way around. Here is my only slight disagreement Kate. When I was growing up into the dyke I am, my mother often told me I acted like a boy, as to insult me. I was considered to be - and I hate this word as I find it moot - a tomboy. My bone of contention with this word, no pun intended, is this: If a tomboy is a girl who acts like a boy, yet a significant number, if not a majority of women say they were this ... than does that not mean they were just girls acting like little girls? Hence the word is meaningless. Regardless it was used as an insult against me and often. > Kate wrote: > Exceptions abound, of course. But this is what I think every time I see Joni > seeming to be proud to be 'one of the boys.' No offence fellas, but that > should not be a compliment to any woman. > I agree, I wish Joni had more girlfriends and respected them as much. JONI! Come out to Jonifest and play with us girls for a weekend! Seems her best and one of Joni's only girlfriends in music was Cass Elliot, not such a bad choice, but it makes me wonder if Cass was the same as Joni or just an exception to Joni's taste. Kate asked: > Have you ever heard of a man who bragged about being 'one of the girls'? > > I haven't. Only Ted. > http://xoetc.antville.org > Who does she think she is, Anaos Nin? I love Anais Nin! One of my top fave writers of all time! Peace, Susan The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo http://search.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 23:59:44 EDT From: Aerchak@aol.com Subject: (no subject) Colin, There you go with your fucking biting sarcasm again . I simply said that I found the neverending discussion tedious and having been abused as as child I do not appreciate any amount of intellectualization on the subject. I would not even dignify myself into entering a dialogue with any anyone who might think it is ok to have sex with kids. But that is not my point, you made a cutting sarcastic remark to me before, about "poor you, you only have one friend on the list". Your comment was cruel, hurtful and downright mean. Bipolar or not, you have a nasty streak and i do not appreciate your cutting sarcasm. Believe or not, Colin, sometimes other people are not in a good space themselves and me deciding to go back to joni-only has NOTHING the fuck to do with you. Andrea ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 00:02:00 EDT From: Bobsart48@aol.com Subject: Re: Down to You apropos of the recent discussion about DTY, today I get this unsolicited e-mail from my daughter. "God, I just LOVE that song...... it's incredible how touching her music can be. i mean, when you think about what art is, what it should be... there are so few things that are both intellectually and emotionally stimulating at once - that you can not only appreciate, but fully enjoy." Bobsart (feeling a bit like Alien - what have I done ?) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 21:22:25 -0700 (PDT) From: quiltbear Subject: Re: sorrow and affectation - --- FMYFL@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 4/14/2003 3:39:32 PM Eastern > Daylight Time, > littlebird3333@yahoo.com writes: > > > Doesn't everyone pronounce "Sorrow" as > "sore-oh?" I > > can't think of any other pronunciation of > that > > particular word. It's not Canadian, it's just > plain > > english.... right? > > > I pronounce it "sawr-row". I think that's typical around this area. --Nancy-IA The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo http://search.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 21:36:15 -0700 (PDT) From: quiltbear Subject: RE: snow and other smells..now with Joni content/question I found one, though it may be a bit of a stretch: "We want the land! Lay down the *reeking* ore! Don't you hear the shrieking in the trees? Everywhere you touch the earthshe's sore." (from "Lakota") - --Nancy-IA - --- anne@sandstrom.com wrote: > And, I can't think of any offhand, but how > about smells > Joni identifies in her songs? In fact, does she > use the > sense of smell at all? (all I can come up with > are > visual images, and some auditory ones.) The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo http://search.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 01:05:12 -0400 From: "Christopher Treacy" Subject: Now, how is it Nambla & Joni are related?? Geez, more messy stinky nasty poop juice all over the jmdl. When it rains, it pours! Stinky, nasty, messy...smelly. - -CJT - ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Cc: ; Sent: Monday, April 14, 2003 11:59 PM Subject: (no subject) > Colin, > > There you go with your fucking biting sarcasm again . I simply said that I > found the neverending discussion tedious and having been abused as as child I > do not appreciate any amount of intellectualization on the subject. I would > not even dignify myself into entering a dialogue with any anyone who might > think it is ok to have sex with kids. But that is not my point, you made a > cutting sarcastic remark to me before, about "poor you, you only have one > friend on the list". Your comment was cruel, hurtful and downright mean. > Bipolar or not, you have a nasty streak and i do not appreciate your cutting > sarcasm. Believe or not, Colin, sometimes other people are not in a good > space themselves and me deciding to go back to joni-only has NOTHING the > fuck to do with you. > > Andrea ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 20:42:37 -0700 From: "kakki" Subject: Re: Gertrude Stein of music SJC Hell wrote: > I think Cass was an exception to the "norm" of the time, but probably > similar to Joni in her attitude to the music business. In a video > documentary I have, Denny Doherty relates drinking boiler-makers under a > table in a bar with Cass, and describes her as "a woman after my own > heart...." which I took to mean she was "one of the boys". In that regard, > maybe Joni viewed her as being like herself - trying to make it as a serious > artist in a man's world. IMO, Cass (and Denny also) carried John and Michelle. They could have never been what they were vocally without Cass. She was the strong voice that the rest could follow and find inspiration from - indispensable in a group harmony, and magical in their case. Maybe that's why Joni respected Cass. I thought Kate du Nord's comments were very insightful. I've always been just like Joni in the sense of always preferring male company. I recall Joni saying in an interview that she always played with the boys in the neighborhood from early childhood (but also had her friends Sharon and Betsy). The two neighborhoods I grew had mostly boys and only one or two girls. We were all friends but because the boys were in the majority, their play activities kind of dictated ours on a daily basis. As an adult, I just find men more fun to hang out with. They are adventurous and one doesn't get bogged down in the petty competitive, scratchy stuff that a group of women can sometimes get into. Men have a calming effect on me (maybe it's a hormonal balancing ;-) I have lifelong best girlfirends, too, but they are also "guy girls" like me. Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 22:58:36 -0700 From: "theodore" Subject: RE: Gertrude Stein of music SJC So do mannish grrrls like susan just halfway kinda take the edge off? There is a really great photo of Momma Cass and her kid eating birthday cake, it's by that Diltz guy that did the Morrison Hotel photo, really funny, I think one of his best shots. No one ever called Gertrude Stein a Tom Boy, Teddy B. Toklas "Baby what you're holding, Half of that belongs to me, and I'm a real straight shooter, if you know what I mean." Mommas and Poppas - -----Original Message----- From: owner-joni@jmdl.com [mailto:owner-joni@jmdl.com] On Behalf Of kakki Sent: Monday, April 14, 2003 8:43 PM To: hell Cc: joni@smoe.org Subject: Re: Gertrude Stein of music SJC Hell wrote: > I think Cass was an exception to the "norm" of the time, but probably > similar to Joni in her attitude to the music business. In a video > documentary I have, Denny Doherty relates drinking boiler-makers under a > table in a bar with Cass, and describes her as "a woman after my own > heart...." which I took to mean she was "one of the boys". In that regard, > maybe Joni viewed her as being like herself - trying to make it as a serious > artist in a man's world. IMO, Cass (and Denny also) carried John and Michelle. They could have never been what they were vocally without Cass. She was the strong voice that the rest could follow and find inspiration from - indispensable in a group harmony, and magical in their case. Maybe that's why Joni respected Cass. I thought Kate du Nord's comments were very insightful. I've always been just like Joni in the sense of always preferring male company. I recall Joni saying in an interview that she always played with the boys in the neighborhood from early childhood (but also had her friends Sharon and Betsy). The two neighborhoods I grew had mostly boys and only one or two girls. We were all friends but because the boys were in the majority, their play activities kind of dictated ours on a daily basis. As an adult, I just find men more fun to hang out with. They are adventurous and one doesn't get bogged down in the petty competitive, scratchy stuff that a group of women can sometimes get into. Men have a calming effect on me (maybe it's a hormonal balancing ;-) I have lifelong best girlfirends, too, but they are also "guy girls" like me. Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 02:00:17 -0400 From: "Lama, Jim L'Hommedieu" Subject: Re: sorrow and affectation I'll say. In Rochester, New York, they are the only people who can put a "A" in the word "whine". They linger on it. They hover over the long "AYEE" that isn't even there: "why-AhYEEEEEEE-n" Flat is pronounced "fl-AY-yit". Apple is "A-YIP-ple". It's so awful I love it, eh? Now, class, try this: "In RA-chester, they grow a LAAAA-t of why-ahyeee-n gray-pes and a-YIP-ples. Too bad it's colder than an oversized vagina all the ti-eeeeeem." Lama Catherine said, >>To me, Americans *all* sound like they say "sarrow" (or maybe it's "sah-row.") But then again, the Americans nearest Toronto are from western New York, y'know, towns like Rachester and Tanawanda, so maybe it's just them.>> ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 02:04:58 -0400 From: ljirvin@jmdl.com Subject: Today's Library Links: April 15 On April 15 the following items were published: 1988: "Will People Listen to Joni Mitchell?" - Express (Interview, with photographs) http://www.jmdl.com/articles/view.cfm?id=106 2000: "Joni Looks At Life" - TV Guide (Biography) http://www.jmdl.com/articles/view.cfm?id=567 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 02:08:22 -0400 From: "Lama, Jim L'Hommedieu" Subject: Joni on Video! 100% JC "Joni Mitchell: A Woman Of Heart and Mind" is available on NTSC VHS or DVD from WNET in New York. From the USA and Canada, you can call 1-800-336-1917. "Painting With Words and Music" is available on DVD and NTSC-VHS (in the USA at least). Try www.amazon.com I don't know if it is free of region coding. "Shadows and Light" is available on DVD from a reputable guy in Hong Kong, via eBay auctions. This one is advertised as being free of region coding. It plays fine here in the US and includes stuff left off the 60 minute version sold on VHS here twenty years ago. All the best, Lama ps, all of the USA releases are available in stores as new CDs. Every single one, from "Song To A Seagull" to "Travelogue". ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 21:39:04 -0700 From: "kakki" Subject: Re: Gertrude Stein of music SJC Teddy wrote: > So do mannish grrrls like susan just halfway kinda take the edge off? Naw...it has to be a cute, sort of wild but sweet guy ;-) And geez, your post about all the boys playing head trips on the "chicks" kind of scared me! Yeah, I know it happens...but geez...a lot of those guys end up kind of sad when they get older. > There is a really great photo of Momma Cass and her kid eating birthday > cake, it's by that Diltz guy that did the Morrison Hotel photo, really > funny, I think one of his best shots. He's the best....and also an instant crush to all the girls who meet him ;-) Kakki ------------------------------ End of onlyJMDL Digest V2003 #132 ********************************* ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she? (http://www.siquomb.com/siquomb.cfm)