From: les@jmdl.com (onlyJMDL Digest) To: onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Subject: onlyJMDL Digest V2003 #128 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/onlyjoni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com Unsubscribe: mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe onlyJMDL Digest Saturday, April 12 2003 Volume 2003 : Number 128 Sign up now for JoniFest 2003! http://www.jonifest.com ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: Ginsberg, relevant Joni content at the end [colin ] Brilliant Blue Tapestry [John Sprackland ] Re: joni's blue on the life and times / woman of heart and mind [AsharaJM] Joni on American Masters ... [Don Rowe ] re: Joni on American Masters [SoulQuest7@aol.com] was...Joni on AM, now...message for Joni... Completion [RoseMJoy@aol.com] Re: Joni on American Masters ... [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: Ginsberg, relevant Joni content at the end [SoulQuest7@aol.com] weird joni pronunciation. [anne@sandstrom.com] Re: hissing of the summer lawns [Les Irvin ] RE: joni and tori nexus ["Heather" ] Re: hissing of the summer lawns [RoseMJoy@aol.com] Re: hissing of the summer lawns ["mack watson-bush" ] Re: joni and tori nexus [Little Bird ] Re: joni and tori nexus [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: hissing of the summer lawns ["ron" ] Re: Joni, Norah and other femmes, Ginsberg and NAMBLA ["Larry D." ] re your nambla post [cul heath ] Re: Ann Marie McDonald/Hommage reviews [magsnbrei ] re your jmdl post [cul heath ] The "real" Joni [Little Bird ] re gay men not speaking up [cul heath ] re: the hissing [=?iso-8859-1?Q?Emiliano_Pati=F1o?= ] Re: Joni's "praise" of Laura Nyro [Bobsart48@aol.com] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2003 09:20:55 +0100 From: colin Subject: Re: Ginsberg, relevant Joni content at the end David Marine wrote: > Hey list -- > Ginsberg was an activist, and at the time he joined NAMBLA, the > Reagan administration was on a witch-hunt. NAMBLA's charter > specifically states that it is NOT in favor of any illegal sexual > activity, but rather a discussion of the laws that dictate what sexual > practices are allowed. It wants to change the law to allow sex adults to have sex with children. I find that abhorrent and cannot udnerstand how an intelleigent adult would support such a thing. > For example, In Hawaii a 14-year-old boy is free to choose his sex > partners, male or female? Even if so, an adult should not be having sex with a 14 year old(boy or girl). the power diferrential is too great. Even if the 14 year old is 'willing',it is still abuse. > NAMBLA works to address these discrepancies. just the name/acronym NAMBLA makes it clear what this is about. > No doubt there are evil predators in NAMBLA, but that does not mean > the group should not be free to have an open discussion of sexuality > and the laws that govern sexuality. it can discuss anything it wants but to pretend it doesn't want to legalise adults having sex with children, ie adults abusing children, adults preying on children, is naive. > > > This advocacy of Ginsberg's is in keeping with his life's work, which > openly and fearlessly challenged government oppression of free speech > and consensual sexuality. there can be no consent between and adult and a child. despite the fact peodophiles use this 'defense' all the time.(i.ebut the child consented.) > I can tell you now that all of you on this list who consider > yourselves gay owe a huge debt of gratitude to Ginsberg, really? I wonder about the children abused by people he gave support to? Not saying here he told these people to abuse but he seems to be arguing(or you do) that he gave support to the idea. > as regards art, art is art regarless of the morals etc of the person who created it. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2003 03:38:20 -0700 From: cul heath Subject: Re: hissing of the summer lawns (Ron) Hi Ron, [Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2003 08:56:43 +0200 From: "ron" ....and if it really is about sprinklers im gonna be really, really disppointed.] Don't be disappointed, Ron...while the surface image IS referencing those spinning sprinklers, to my lights, they are being used because they are an icon for the suburban lifestyle and, further, life artifically maintained...and in general, artifice [...like everything looks smooth and green and uniform, and "no colour no contrast" but if you listen closely you can hear the hissing of snakes and evil and also just the basic primitive urges of mankind going on under all that repression. hence the picture of the snakes and tribal people on the cover.] Perfectly said. The tune "Jungle Line" focuses specifically on those ideas and many of the other tunes on HofSL are thematically related to the idea of being existentially insulated from the "real" needs of life as a consequence of being emeshed in the artifical demands of modern urban life. I really like the idea too of the "primitives" carrying the snake up toward the church (which itself is located just outside the "city", core of all that is artificially constructed). cul ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2003 11:43:22 +0100 From: John Sprackland Subject: Brilliant Blue Tapestry Final reminder, folks, that Blue Tapestry are at Southport Arts Centre tonight (Saturday 12th) at 8pm... and if you're there don't forget to ask a member of staff to point me out to you and come and say hello! Cheers John Sprackland In message <200304110700.h3B70Ame003484@smoe.org>, onlyJMDL Digest writes >I'm so glad I managed to get to the Blue Tapestry gig last night because it >was a great night's entertainment. Support act was David Hughes who I had >never seen before but is an excellent singer songwriter guitarist and >humourist and set the evening up well for the appearance of the main act. >What strikes you about this band, as well as the huge talent of all 5 >members, is their collective love for the music of Joni Mitchell and Carole >King and they frequently referred to the thrill they got from performing such >great songs. For this tour they have added 12 new songs to the repetoire. One >of the highligts, for me, was Chris Whiles opening the second half with a >beautiful rendition of Fiddle and the Drum. Tracks from Blue, C&S, Hejira, >WTRF and LOTC were covered with both Martin Allcock and Pete Zorn >contributing great bass on the Coyote and Black Crow in turn. Both Chris and >Julie Matthews have great voices for this project. So - if you get the >chance to see this band play - GO! > >Jacky >NP David Hughes "Recognised" - -- John Sprackland ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2003 08:57:17 EDT From: AsharaJM@aol.com Subject: Re: joni's blue on the life and times / woman of heart and mind In a message dated 4/11/2003 10:57:13 PM Eastern Standard Time, magsnbrei@yahoo.com writes: > She is a Canadian actor, among other things, and she participated in the > Hommage for Joni in Toronto, October 2001. I think she recited one of > Joni's songs however I can't remember which one..anyone know? At one point, I posted a long article reviewing the whole Hommage, and that info would be there. Les put it up on the website, but I can't seem to find it now. Les? Hugs, Ashara ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2003 06:23:45 -0700 (PDT) From: Don Rowe Subject: Joni on American Masters ... Thought I'd chime in with my dos pesos on WOHAM. While it certainly had it's interesting moments, in the end, I was kind of disappointed that it was so "mainstream." To an extent, that's understandable of course, since most of the planet isn't quite as closely focused on the minutae of Joni's life as we tend to be ... but not very much new light was shed on Joni's life and career. In the end it was pretty much a recitation of the chatper-and-verse POV. For instance: Joni appears on the music scene in the late 60s like some mythical Athena -- born fully formed from the skulls of Crosby, Stills, Nash and Young. We then spend nearly 1/3 of the film examining Joni's first four records, and her affair with Nash. By the time we get to Woodstock, there's barely an hour left to cover those 30+ "other years" ... Here's what really gets to me. HOSL isn't even mentioned ... then Hejira and DJRD are treated as merely a sort of dress rehearsal for Mingus. Then there's a 20 minute artistic rehabliltation of Mingus, so we can all be chastened about "not getting it the first time around." At least Herbie and Wayne's comments were salient. Here's where it gets really puzzling ... Joni puts out WTRF, marries Klein and then apparently takes the next 10 years off ... resurfacing only with the release of NRH. Honestly, if you didn't know the catalog, that's what this documentary would have you think. Which is tantamount to saying, "Don't get me started." ;-) Joni sings her swan song with TI, then sits down at her easel until her death. Oh, wait a minute, Joni's not dead -- but the film has this eeie quality about it that makes you feel like she is deceased. Part of this is created by the Ken Burn's pans-over-stills treatment a la "The Civi War". But the other thing that contributes is what sticks in my craw the worst. The talking heads ... "Nobody plumbed the depths of the soul, and did it with such honesty and integrity as ___________." Today, the NPR Program directors and New Yorker editors were called upon to fill in the blank with the name "Joni Mitchell." Never mind that these were the same folks who accused her of "navel gazing" and berated her lack of ability to write catchy melodies for 30 years. Tomorrow they'll be asked to fill the blank with ... Madonna, or Cher, or Kylie Minougue ... and will do so willingly. No wonder Joni's gotten cranky! Now before you call in the napalm, I will say that the film was obviously an homage ... lovingly executed and produced. But like any attempt to encapsulate as rich and diverse a career as Joni's ... it falls down on several counts. And now I believe I shall duck and cover! ;-) Don Rowe ===== Visit me anytime at http://www.mp3.com/donrowe Yahoo! Tax Center - File online, calculators, forms, and more http://tax.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2003 09:44:03 EDT From: SoulQuest7@aol.com Subject: re: Joni on American Masters I disagree with Don Rowe. The show was weighted quite fairly. You can't examine ALL albums in an artists 30 year career in a 90 minute documentary, it's just not possible. Don complains that so much time is spent on the early popular albums, then complains that a lot of time was spent focusing on her most obscure album, Mingus. That's contradictory. I think that is an absolutely normal pattern for a documentary on an artist-- why they were popular, why they lost popularity, what direction that went after that, etc. At least the filmmaker doesn't focus obsessively on the criticism of Mingus. On the contrary, she focuses on Joni's artistic courage to follow her instincts in spite of commercial concerns. I think that shows the film is made by a true fan, not just your average dumb rock journalist. =-- om===- Nick ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2003 09:45:22 EDT From: RoseMJoy@aol.com Subject: was...Joni on AM, now...message for Joni... Completion In a message dated 4/12/03 9:24:18 AM Eastern Daylight Time, dgrowe227@yahoo.com writes: > Now before you call in the napalm, I will say that the > film was obviously an homage ... lovingly executed and > produced. But like any attempt to encapsulate as rich > and diverse a career as Joni's ... it falls down on > several counts. > > And now I believe I shall duck and cover! ;-) > > no need to duck Don....we are just starving for anything Joni related...so whatever we get...is better than nothing...... and what I said about Joni's work being completed....I take it back.... I cast the coins of my I-Ching on this matter and here's what it said basically.... hexagram 63 Completion the course of your life has been fulfilled she must not STOP...do not look back Joni, sure you've had success...now you look back in hypnotic rapture....enjoy your moment of peace & perfection now...without regret and without looking back...Do not value the past over the difficult future or you may find yourself as brittle and immobile as Lot's wife. You must continue to move in your Tao or disaster will result. We need to hear from you Joni the world is changing...and YOU are part of it I hear & love u Joni rosie In the morning there are lovers in the street They look so high You brush against a stranger And you both apologize ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2003 09:53:44 EDT From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: Joni on American Masters ... In a message dated 4/12/2003 9:24:18 AM Eastern Daylight Time, dgrowe227@yahoo.com writes: > And now I believe I shall duck and cover! ;-) > It may have had its flaws, Don, but it wasn't as bad as all that. As for the talking heads, they were all longtime Joni devotees and not superficial fill-ins...maybe I missed something, if you could be more specific. But you're right...the HOSL/Hejira/DJRD phase (possibly her most creative time) was sorely overlooked. As for the "10 years she took off" between WTRF & NRH, maybe that's just wishful thinking on Joni's part! :~) My turn to duck & cover...actually I'm going for a run on this beautiful SC day! Bob NP: Mingus Big Band, "Tonight At Noon" (picked this up after being so impressed with their appearance at W2W) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2003 10:11:14 EDT From: SoulQuest7@aol.com Subject: Re: Ginsberg, relevant Joni content at the end Interesting debaste on sex and age-of-consent laws, but not very Joni-ish. Age of consent laws have always fluctuated throughout history from culture to culture, and vary from state to state. At one point in West Virginia it used to be legal for women to marry at age 14, and no one thought that was bizarre in certain segments of the population. Remember the "scandal" that erupted with Jerry Lee Lewis married his thirteen year old cousin before he divorced his last wife? Think about it-- Jerry was caught off guard by the scandal. Most of our modern views of sex come from our beliefs about education-- it's no mere coincidence that the typical age of consent, 18, is after high school. Yet how many of us violated that law? It a 19 year old has sex with a 17 year old, that could be statutory rape in some states, yet how many of us would consider it rape if it was voluntary? I know older men who have wives and lovers that are young (yet legal age), and the same is true of some gay relationships. Big deal. Grow up. Love happens, and not always in the tidy constraints that some people would like. However, I think there is a logical reason for age of consent laws and support them, but I think 18 is bit ridiculous considering the experiences of most of the people I know. Maybe 16 would be more realistic? I also think Allen Ginsberg is a pivotal person in the counterculture, although like most articulators of the 60s ethos, he often took things to far!! I don't anything about NAMBLA or it's beliefs, so I can't comment on that. =-- Jai Ma-== Nick In a message dated 4/12/2003 1:22:13 AM Pacific Daylight Time, colin@tantra-apso.com writes: > David Marine wrote: > > > Hey list -- > > Ginsberg was an activist, and at the time he joined NAMBLA, the > > Reagan administration was on a witch-hunt. NAMBLA's charter > > specifically states that it is NOT in favor of any illegal sexual > > activity, but rather a discussion of the laws that dictate what sexual > > practices are allowed. > > It wants to change the law to allow sex adults to have sex with > children. I find that abhorrent and cannot udnerstand how an > intelleigent adult would support such a thing. > > > For example, In Hawaii a 14-year-old boy is free to choose his sex > > partners, > > male or female? Even if so, an adult should not be having sex with a 14 > year old(boy or girl). the power diferrential is too great. Even if the > 14 year old is 'willing',it is still abuse. > > > NAMBLA works to address these discrepancies. > > just the name/acronym NAMBLA makes it clear what this is about. > > > No doubt there are evil predators in NAMBLA, but that does not mean > > the group should not be free to have an open discussion of sexuality > > and the laws that govern sexuality. > > it can discuss anything it wants but to pretend it doesn't want to > legalise adults having sex with children, ie adults abusing children, > adults preying on children, is naive. > > > > > > > This advocacy of Ginsberg's is in keeping with his life's work, which > > openly and fearlessly challenged government oppression of free speech > > and consensual sexuality. > > there can be no consent between and adult and a child. despite the fact > peodophiles use this 'defense' all the time.(i.ebut the child consented.) > > > I can tell you now that all of you on this list who consider > > yourselves gay owe a huge debt of gratitude to Ginsberg, > > really? I wonder about the children abused by people he gave support to? > Not saying here he told these people to abuse but he seems to be > arguing(or you do) that he gave support to the idea. > > > > as regards art, art is art regarless of the morals etc of the person who > created it. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2003 07:21:58 -0700 (PDT) From: anne@sandstrom.com Subject: weird joni pronunciation. There are a few words the Joni mispronounces that always annoy me... jewels/schools in For Free (as has been discussed here...) clandestine in Don't Interrupt the Sorrow toupe in Shiny Toys I always found these odd and jarring. lots of love Anne ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2003 08:50:00 -0600 From: Les Irvin Subject: Re: hissing of the summer lawns At 4/12/2003 12:56 AM, ron wrote: >and if it really is about sprinklers im gonna be really, really disppointed. Prepare to be disappointed! If you can believe what Miss Mitchell says, that is... :-) From the 1979 Rolling Stone interview: "The basic theme of the album, which everybody thought was so abstract, was just any summer day in any neighborhood when people turn their sprinklers on all up and down the block. It's just that hiss of suburbia." http://www.jmdl.com/articles/view.cfm?id=946 Les... by way of your friendly neighborhood JMDL search engine. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2003 10:57:34 -0400 From: "Heather" Subject: RE: joni and tori nexus And even when Joni *tries* to give Laura Nyro a complement all she can come up with is (and I am re-writing what is on the back jacket of Michele Kort's biography of Laura Nyro): "Laura Nyro you can lump me in with, because Laura exerted an influence on me. I looked to her and took some direction from her." Come on Joni! You can let go ... say something nice! jaysus murphy! When you compare this statement from Joni about Laura with the others on the jacket of Kort's book ... Rickie Lee Jones, Donna Summer, Rosanne Cash, Mary Travers, Suzanne Vega ... Joni statement seems lack luster. Heather - -----Original Message----- From: owner-joni@jmdl.com [mailto:owner-joni@jmdl.com]On Behalf Of Catherine McKay Sent: Friday, April 11, 2003 10:37 PM To: patrick leader; cul heath; joni@smoe.org Subject: Re: joni and tori nexus --- patrick leader wrote: > it's quite logical to be a joni and a tori fan. and > tori worships joni, > although i'll bet joni would listen to tori and say > 'i did all that > already'. that's joni's well-known blind spot, when > she hears a younger > female musician, she usually only hears the > similarities, and the > differences escape her entirely. This is one thing that does irritate me about Joni. She rarely says anything good about other artists, especially female artists, and most especially younger female artists. She seems to be a bit of a misogynist that way. Likes to think of herself as "one of the boys". She's often quoted saying things like that. i wonder how much of it is taken out of context? She does admire some older female singers, like Billie Holiday. The only female contemporary I can think of that Joni has had anything good to say about is Laura Nyro. As for younger ones, I think she finds Bjork interesting (but that doesn't mean she likes her). Has she ever said anything about Tori Amos? ===== Catherine Toronto ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2003 10:56:52 EDT From: RoseMJoy@aol.com Subject: Re: hissing of the summer lawns In a message dated 4/12/03 10:52:33 AM Eastern Daylight Time, ljirvin@jmdl.com writes: > "The basic theme of the album, which everybody thought was so abstract, was > just any summer day in any neighborhood when people turn their sprinklers > on all up and down the block. It's just that hiss of suburbia." > That's what I always imagined anyway.... rosie in nj, not disappointed NP:Joni, NRH.... Slouching Toward Bethlehem In the morning there are lovers in the street They look so high You brush against a stranger And you both apologize ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2003 10:01:41 -0500 From: "mack watson-bush" Subject: Re: hissing of the summer lawns heather informed: > "The basic theme of the album, which everybody thought was so abstract, was > just any summer day in any neighborhood when people turn their sprinklers > on all up and down the block. It's just that hiss of suburbia." > I love that, thoroughly. Will enjoy the album more now I do think. mack ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2003 10:03:29 -0500 From: "mack watson-bush" Subject: Re: hissing of the summer lawns Sorry Les. Les informed. heheh mack ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2003 11:10:47 EDT From: Rdalindley@aol.com Subject: Re: Ute and Joni There doesn't seem to be an Utelemper.com. I did a Google for her and came with a bunch of stuff - but no offical site that I could find. Rob - in the the blue tv screen light ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2003 11:25:31 EDT From: AsharaJM@aol.com Subject: Ann Marie McDonald/Hommage reviews I wrote: >At one point, I posted a long article reviewing the whole Hommage, and >that info would be there. Les put it up on the website, but I can't seem >to find it now. Les? Then Les wrote: <http://www.jmdl.com/performances/docs/011019.cfm>> Yep, thanks Les. There ya go, Mags. All your questions answered. Hugs, Ashara ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2003 12:03:24 EDT From: RoseMJoy@aol.com Subject: Re: Ute and Joni THE BOTTOM LINE NYC http://www.bottomlinecabaret.com/ SAT APR 19 UTE LEMPER E-mail Reservations are being accepted for this performance One Show Only - Doors Open 6PM for 8PM Show All Seats $30.00 Any JMDLers up for this? Lemme know rosie in nj NP: DJRD In the morning there are lovers in the street They look so high You brush against a stranger And you both apologize ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2003 12:29:47 EDT From: Dflahm@aol.com Subject: Re: Joni on American Masters ... While the show might have short-changed the mid-and-late 70s output, there was at least an explicit acknowledgement of Jaco Pastorius's impact on JM (the flip side of that: JM's openness to Jaco and his music.) DAVID LAHM ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2003 12:44:50 -0500 From: "J.David Sapp" Subject: Re: joni and tori nexus Chaka Khan does backup on DJRD - can't remember I think it is on Dreamland. peace, david ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2003 11:34:29 -0700 (PDT) From: Little Bird Subject: Re: joni and tori nexus - --- "J.David Sapp" wrote: > Chaka Khan does backup on DJRD - can't remember I > think it is on Dreamland. Yes, and a teeny bit on The Tenth World. That was a great union. If it had been previously unnoticed before, the cross-over appeal of Joni's music was really solidified with DJRD, especially its acceptance by black musicians, like Charles Mingus. Having a woman known for disco/funk hits (I'm Every Woman) singing on an album as complex as DJRD really helped the mainstream see Joni's enormous appeal and diversity - that in combination with her unrelenting musical experimentation on that record. Folk singer? Not any more. - -Andrew Yahoo! Tax Center - File online, calculators, forms, and more http://tax.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2003 14:35:07 EDT From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: joni and tori nexus In a message dated 4/12/2003 1:32:33 PM Eastern Daylight Time, davidsapp@peoplepc.com writes: > Chaka Khan does backup on DJRD - can't remember I think it is on Dreamland. > And Wendy & Lisa from Prince's band provide back-up vocals on "Tea-Leaf Prophecy"...Karen Perris (The Innocence Mission) does back-up vocal on "Cherokee Louise". But all in all, very few females on Joni's records. I think she just prefers the company of men. Bob NP: Yvette In English ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2003 21:51:56 +0200 From: "ron" Subject: Re: hissing of the summer lawns hi >>>>>les wrote >>>>>>>Prepare to be disappointed! If you can believe what Miss Mitchell says, that is... :-) ah waddoes she know abouddit??? thats what she *thought* she meant. actually, thanks les - i will now have to go and re adjust my ideas of the last 20 years. :-) and anyhow, its still a truly brilliant album. even after all these years it still moves me to tears just by the sheer beauty of the music alone. then you start listening to the lyrics...... ron ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2003 13:23:27 -0700 (PDT) From: "Larry D." Subject: Re: Joni, Norah and other femmes, Ginsberg and NAMBLA I recall several years ago reading a magazine interview with Joni in which she said something like, "it's difficult seeing your imitators succeed". I wonder if she (rightly or wrongly - you be the judge) sees most of the younger generation of female pop musicians as her imitators. As for Norah Jones, here's my two cents: I think she's a beautiful, talented young woman, but I also think her recent success is so vast and so fast that a backlash was inevitable. Personally, I prefer John Mayer and I think he deserved the best new artist grammy. But I begrudge Ms. Jones nothing - she is quite good. I bought her album over a year ago and by the time she was scooping up multiple grammy awards, I had pretty much been there and done that. Re: Ginsberg and NAMBLA. While I certainly acknowledge Ginsberg's artistry and his pioneering work for gay rights, the fact is that NAMBLA is an organization by for and about adult men who (at least) want to have sex with boys. Ginsberg made the choice to align himself with that group and I'm not surprised if that makes some people uncomfortable. BTW, pardon the naive question, but are there a whole lotta gay dudes on this list? Peace y'all. Larry D (the small and meek, who considers himself gay) www.larry-d.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2003 21:28:53 +0100 From: colin Subject: Re: Joni, Norah and other femmes, Ginsberg and NAMBLA Larry D. wrote: > >BTW, pardon the naive question, but are there a whole >lotta gay dudes on this list? > LOL! welcome to the club, Larry D.(not poking fun at you) > >Peace y'all. > >Larry D >(the small and meek, who considers himself gay) > >www.larry-d.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2003 16:42:16 EDT From: PassScribe@aol.com Subject: Re: Desert Island Discs In a message dated 4/12/03 3:01:53 AM, les@jmdl.com writes: << From: AzeemAK@aol.com Subject: Joni's idiosyncratic pronunciation I was listening to David Gilmour on Desert Island Discs this morning. >> I've heard of this before but don't know if we get it in NYC area; where's it from and when is it broadcast? Kenny B ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2003 16:42:18 EDT From: PassScribe@aol.com Subject: Re: onlyJMDL Digest V2003 #127 In a message dated 4/12/03 3:01:53 AM, les@jmdl.com writes: << From: Bobsart48@aol.com Subject: Re: onlyJMDL Digest V2003 #126 I am not sure what is so controlled about the living spaces in the suburbs, either. Has this been your experience, living in the suburbs ? Bobsart Bob; I've lived in the suburbs ever since getting married and I'd have to say that they are definately "controlled living spaces." Many communities on Long Island (NY) have these cookie-cutter appearance since so many areas were developed at the same time. I live in one such area now that was built in the '40's and, if it wasn't for so many people renovating & expanding their houses, you could easilly have walked into the wrong one some time. Even today, when developers build in an area that was formerly a factory site or a school that was closed, they only offer several different types of homes and everybody has nearly the same size lot, etc. Often, even the streets imply a controlled envionment (our developement has all girls' names; I live on Erma, down the block is Ava, around the corner is Dorothy, etc., and a little bit further over is a different development with streets named after cars.) Then, take into account that certain roads become the busy ones where all the stores and malls are located and it goes on from there. Each mall has its large (anchor) stores and all the smaller ones; at least one pizzeria, one Chinese take-out, one electronics/appliance-type store, etc. I think in more rural areas, things are more open and less structured although each town usually has a business district (which makes sense.) Even in New York City (Manhattan), as controlled a living space as it might seem, there may be less structure than in suburbia. Kenny B ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2003 16:42:21 EDT From: PassScribe@aol.com Subject: Re: Joni walking off during show In a message dated 4/12/03 3:01:53 AM, Jim writes: << I was livid, and lost a great deal of respect for Joni as "a person" that night. Much like Bob Murphy suggested, I felt so betrayed by her lack of professionalism and respect for her devoted audience that I have had a VERY hard time getting over it. I didn't play her music for close to a year, I don't believe, and have never truly forgiven her. Had I been Bob's friend - instead of already having 15 years of rabid fandom under my belt at that time - I would never have wanted to hear her name again, either. In the years since, thanks to interviews she has given, etc., I have come to view Joni (as "a person") as an egotistical prima donna. I have had to overcome that view to remain the fan that I am, since I've always liked my heroes to be, first and foremost, "nice people." I've been successful, though, which explains my continuing presence here. Best, (formerly Boston) Jim I've always had mixed feelings about wanting to meet some of the artists I'd loved over the years, thinking that I might not like them as "a person" and possibly being turned off of their music as a result. Unfortunately, this has never been a problem since I never really met any of my heroes. But, I talked to Todd Rundgren on the phone once during a Todd fan gathering and we all thought he was fabulous (answering our questions & chatting about any subject we wanted) on a call that was over a speaker so we all could hear everything. Likewise, other members of his band (at the time) Utopia. I have a good friend (gal) who was "in love" with Johnny Mathis many years ago (his biggest fan) and she got a friend of hers (who worked at a radio station) to arrange an interview (he almost never granted interviews at the time) and this friend of mine went along as "the photographer".... with a freakin' INSTAMATIC! Mathis was VERY kind to them, saw right through their ploy and still treated them wonderfully; even gave them each a kiss (my friend didn't wash her face for a week!) Kenny B ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2003 16:42:20 EDT From: PassScribe@aol.com Subject: Re: Suburbia I << From: Bobsart48@aol.com Subject: Re: onlyJMDL Digest V2003 #126 Randy wrote: > These neighborhoods are mostly white, all rich, yards groomed, > everything under control. These things it shares with middle-class > suburbia. There are many well-maintained suburban communities on Long Island which are predominantly black or hispanic; others, which are predominantly white middle-class or others that are mostly Jewish or "upscale" (more professionals including all types of people.) Is the "all rich" juxtaposition with "middle class" not an oxymoron ? >> I don't think so. While most suburban communities on Long Island are composed of people who have something in common, I don't think "middle class" and "all rich" are the same thing. I consider myself "middle class" but I'm surely not "rich" by any stretch of the imagination. Kenny B ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2003 14:15:11 -0700 From: Randy Remote Subject: Re: hissing of the summer lawns Also in this interview is another topic we've been discussing. I assume it the same show in Boston: Q:Was there an instance when you walked offstage after two songs? Joni: There was one time that I was onstage for one song. And I left. I felt very bad for the audience. It was impossible for me to continue. There's that old show-business axiom that the show must go on. But if I listed for you the strikes that were against me that night, I think that you could dig it. It's not easy to leave an audience sitting there. I was still in bad health from going out on Rolling Thunder, which was mad. Heavy drama, no sleepa circus. I'd requested before the show went on to get out of it. But it was too late. I had bronchitis. A bone in my spine was out of place and was pinching like crazy. So I was in physical pain. I was in emotional pain. I was going with someone in the band, and we were in the process of splitting up. We were in a Quonset hut, and the sound was just ricocheting. And I just made the decision. Concerning other women: I have a few good women friends. I like them and I trust them. But generally speaking, I'm a little afraid of women. and I would love to make new women friends, but I hardly have time to do justice to the ones I have. RR Les Irvin wrote: > At 4/12/2003 12:56 AM, ron wrote: > >and if it really is about sprinklers im gonna be really, really disppointed. > > Prepare to be disappointed! If you can believe what Miss Mitchell says, > that is... :-) > > From the 1979 Rolling Stone interview: > > "The basic theme of the album, which everybody thought was so abstract, was > just any summer day in any neighborhood when people turn their sprinklers > on all up and down the block. It's just that hiss of suburbia." > > http://www.jmdl.com/articles/view.cfm?id=946 > > Les... by way of your friendly neighborhood JMDL search engine. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2003 14:27:12 -0700 From: cul heath Subject: re your nambla post Hi Wally, May we call this a brave post? I think so. i really don't know how to compose this post without getting into trouble with a lot of list members but i'll try. And a good try it is...nevertheless: Its also socially suicidal because the topic is so emotionally charged that it is rarely discussed sans hysteria of one sort or another. Hence the great American Sexual Dysfuction continues unabated, in no small measure exactly because these sorts of issues are boobytrapped in such a way that even showing interest in the questions raises suspicions that the asker has purient intertest as a motive. I rebuke all those sorts of intellectual dishonesty and would answer your questions (which are good and proper) in this manner: [All hail the Pendant!] my main question is whether it is possible that kids of say 12 or 13 could be ready and willing to have sex with older men and that in these situations intimacy may not constitute sexual abuse or child molesting. Yes it is possible. (I would lose the gender aspect though since the question really speaks to age differential and in any case applies to both sexes.) Context is everything. These things are culturally determined and are fluid across the centuries. And of course because we are relatively so short-lived we tend to adopt, or at least be shaped by, the mores of our time period and have a difficult time not thinking of them as "writ by the stars themselves". The fluidty is not apparent to us. It takes the greatest effort to liberate oneself from those things that are the most culturally given. In my estimation, even though it is quite possible for an 11 year old to have healthy inimate relations (sexual or not) with an 80 year old, our present culture is not capable (or even interested in becoming capable) in supporting or condoning such a relationship. We don't have the emotional or political language to construct a social contract to guarentee that such an arrangement would protect the child from the advantages of superior knowledge, experience and physicality possessed by the adult. In that these things are not infrequently used by adults to children's detriment even in situations not immediately in our focus, lends credence to societies position of erroring on the side of caution and opting for a blanket ban on such behavior. It is too utopian I think to assume otherwise. The biggest problem I have with how society reacts to discovering such relationships is that it is at least as socially destucutive all around as the questionable behavior itself. Making it purely a justice matter is a haphazard application of the wrong type of bandage and hence the penalties are more a product of the hysterical dimension than any rational aim at harm reduction. [All Hail the Pendant's Egress!] I had an earlier coming out as it were and I can assure you that the relationships I had with older boys and men were no more harmful than those I have had as an adult. Talk to Joni about it...man to man to man to man...strung out on another man... and they wonder why we faggots are so Mitchell prone. Because she speaks our language, silly. Congrats on a great post. be well, cul Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2003 05:05:38 -0300 From: "Wally Kairuz" Subject: nambla njc i really don't know how to compose this post without getting into trouble with a lot of list members but i'll try. i have always been very interested in nambla. i am not familiar with it or its guiding principles. i know that the ilga didn't accept nambla as a member organization for a long time (i don't know whether this situation has changed) and that its existence has caused a lot of controversy in the gay political arena. my main question is whether it is possible that kids of say 12 or 13 could be ready and willing to have sex with older men and that in these situations intimacy may not constitute sexual abuse or child molesting. in my experience, i was very much in love with an older man and ready for intimacy when i was 11. if i had had sex with him, would that invariably have hurt my psyche or development? what are the bases on which the age of consent is determined? i assure you all that these questions are made honestly and respectfully. wally ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2003 14:28:07 -0700 (PDT) From: magsnbrei Subject: Re: Ann Marie McDonald/Hommage reviews AsharaJM@aol.com wrote: >At one point, I posted a long article reviewing the whole Hommage, and >that info would be there. Les put it up on the website, but I can't seem >to find it now. Les? Then Les wrote: <>" http://www.jmdl.com/performances/docs/011019.cfm>> Yep, thanks Les. There ya go, Mags. All your questions answered. thanks Ashara & Les for the help/info. We've now seen both the Canadian and the American productions (two countries in one household sure does help eh? :P) tks for the envelope Ashes I look forward to reading the link. Mags, just back from a very hairy day driving to nyc (waved at patrick leader et al ..then to newark&back then out to see Tom Rush tonight with honeyboi. You open my heart, you do. Yes you do. - JM Yahoo! Tax Center - File online, calculators, forms, and more ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2003 14:39:09 -0700 From: cul heath Subject: re your jmdl post Great post...very rational, very adult. :) cul >Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2003 10:11:14 EDT >From: SoulQuest7@aol.com >Subject: Re: Ginsberg, relevant Joni content at the end > >Interesting debaste on sex and age-of-consent laws, but not very Joni-ish. >Age of consent laws have always fluctuated throughout history from culture to >culture, and vary from state to state. At one point in West Virginia it used >to be legal for women to marry at age 14, and no one thought that was bizarre >in certain segments of the population. Remember the "scandal" that erupted >with Jerry Lee Lewis married his thirteen year old cousin before he divorced >his last wife? Think about it-- Jerry was caught off guard by the scandal. >Most of our modern views of sex come from our beliefs about education-- it's >no mere coincidence that the typical age of consent, 18, is after high >school. Yet how many of us violated that law? It a 19 year old has sex with >a 17 year old, that could be statutory rape in some states, yet how many of >us would consider it rape if it was voluntary? I know older men who have >wives and lovers that are young (yet legal age), and the same is true of some >gay relationships. Big deal. Grow up. Love happens, and not always in the >tidy constraints that some people would like. However, I think there is a >logical reason for age of consent laws and support them, but I think 18 is >bit ridiculous considering the experiences of most of the people I know. >Maybe 16 would be more realistic? I also think Allen Ginsberg is a pivotal >person in the counterculture, although like most articulators of the 60s >ethos, he often took things to far!! I don't anything about NAMBLA or it's >beliefs, so I can't comment on that. =-- Jai Ma-== Nick ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2003 14:42:13 -0700 (PDT) From: Little Bird Subject: The "real" Joni I don't know if you can assume that the famous performer who walks off stage or the person you see being difficult in an interview is the "real" person at all. There is a huge amount of artifice to playing the fame game. Plenty of famous people over the years have detested giving interviews or have been reluctant performers, but that does not necessarily reflect on them as everyday people. A famous person who walks off stage during a concert or gives an arrogant-sounding interview could go home and be the most loving parent, the most attentive lover, the most kind and generous friend. There is an inability on the part of a lot of fans to appreciate this dynamic, this difference, between the famous artifice and the actual human being behind it. We, as fans, hold them to standards they may not feel comfortable with. The media, too, applies their own rules to the famous people who waltz onto their spot-lit stages. If they don't conform, they are "difficult to interview" or are "arrogant and dismissive." But at the dinner table they may tell dirty jokes, or may tuck their kids in at night. They may wash their own cars and be the most approachable human being you could ever hope to meet. Put them in an interview situation or on a stage where they don't feel comfortable and you get a different side. Famous people don't owe us anything just like we don't owe it to them to be forever loyal. And assuming we could ever know the "real" Joni is a bit far fetched. - -Andrew Yahoo! Tax Center - File online, calculators, forms, and more http://tax.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2003 14:48:55 -0700 From: cul heath Subject: re gay men not speaking up As to the lack of gays responding to the recent nambla centered posts...for my part it was because I just saw the conversation immmediate to my posts. I only get digests and have a rather nonchalant attitude toward checking my email mail... i'm the same way with answering the phone. Yet I can understand reticence on the part of many gay men when this topic arises...its just too loaded for the most part because of the archetype of gay=molester laid on us by the great collect for so many years. Me? I couldn't give a fuck about what society thinks. Society is one mighty stupid beast if you ask me. Get a room of 100 brilliant folk together and they still tend to build a reactionary and panic driven gestalt. cul ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2003 02:12:38 +0200 From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Emiliano_Pati=F1o?= Subject: re: the hissing - --- mia ortlieb wrote: > As a child, I used to be somewhat of a tomboy, and I > played outside in the > trees, fields, and parks alot. (then I grew up and > discovered insects, yuk!) > I remember having intensely humid, hot summers > sometimes here in Wisconsin, > and I remember laying on the ground level with the > grass and actually seeing > the grass sizzle and steam under the heat.. it did > sort of make a "hissing" > sound to me. It may have just been my wild > imagination, or perhaps it is > along the lines of "hearing the humming in the wires > in the walls".....which > I used to hear, as well. and Catherine wrote: > You're not the only one, Mia. I swear to God, between > the heat and the bugs and stuff just growing, that > summer lawns do hiss. And I hear humming in the walls > too (now that could be tinnitus, or schizophrenia, but > I think not - wires do hum.) being myself an urbanite but countrylover, I agree with you at the factual hissings and hummings of material (that's why it's *no* schizophrenia, uf, relieving, LOL) things in summer... on certain quiet nights one almost audibily feels the celestial vault, the heavens above... If it shoulld be the beginning of *real* age of aquarius (as you find, I've been listening "Hair" after sodomy's lost thread) no doubt the strongest, the more terrifical (no more helicopters, no more gun mach.s) sound that *all-of-we" could hear: the drums of "Slouching towards Bethlehem" Yeah! yours: Emiliano from Galicia NP again and again and again "Slouching towards Bethlehem" (at last I've got NRH!!!) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2003 02:33:04 +0200 From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Emiliano_Pati=F1o?= Subject: NRH... what's exxon blue? Hi, dears JMDLers! I'm living the cheerfully hipnotic "Passion Play (When All The Slaves Are Free) and wondering: what means "Exxon blue"? Is there some blue sign asociated with that oil company? (I do not recall by now that signs... and you should drive me to a psychiatrist if I would be in the mood, at night, to visit its web page..... Internet is dedicated exclusively to Joni tonight). Or there is some association with the blue flame that makes burning gasoline? hmmm... NP: really nothing as I write (no muzak here) setting pause off: Cherokee Louise ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2003 20:34:27 -0400 From: "Rache A" Subject: Re: weird joni pronunciation I've been really busy and haven't had much time at all to check email...still getting caught up. The pronunciations I've noticed are in early songs she pronounces 'neon' like 'nayon' (on The Dawntreader & Carnival in Kenora), but later she pronounced it normally. Also one she still does, on T'log, 'percolator' like 'perculator' (from The Last Time I saw Richard - all 3 recordings I believe). And i know one a lot of people say, though I've always been taught otherwise, 'bury' like 'burry', on Sex Kills (on TI). i know this isn't going to put a space in, though i'll still try, I'll just type ... Last summer when I went to the rock 'n' roll hall of fame, I had written down those lyrics from My Old Man, but I can't find the paper (it's probably on my desk, which means no chance of finding it) and I can't remember the lyrics, something about London & rock 'n' roll, children, rock 'n' roll sundays? anyone have these? bye, Rache NP: Emmylou Harris and the Nash Ramblers at the Ryman (out of print but if you can find it it's well worth it!) - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ MSN 8 helps ELIMINATE E-MAIL VIRUSES. Get 2 months FREE*. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2003 20:47:37 EDT From: Bobsart48@aol.com Subject: Re: Joni's "praise" of Laura Nyro Heather wrote: > When you compare this statement from Joni about Laura with the others on the > jacket of Kort's book ... Rickie Lee Jones, Donna Summer, Rosanne Cash, > Mary > Travers, Suzanne Vega ... Joni statement seems lack luster. > Perhaps that all makes sense, though. When you compare the position from which those other (lackluster, relative to Joni) "artists" speak, that is. Again, everyone on the PGA tour sings Tiger's praises, and I am sure many of the lesser lights are effusive about David Toms and Mike Weir, who are wonderful players. But you will not hear Tiger gushing over those guys - it would sound phony. Bobsart ------------------------------ End of onlyJMDL Digest V2003 #128 ********************************* ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she? (http://www.siquomb.com/siquomb.cfm)