From: les@jmdl.com (onlyJMDL Digest) To: onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Subject: onlyJMDL Digest V2003 #127 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/onlyjoni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com Unsubscribe: mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe onlyJMDL Digest Saturday, April 12 2003 Volume 2003 : Number 127 Sign up now for JoniFest 2003! http://www.jonifest.com ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: Down to you and tidbits ["kakki" ] Joni's idiosyncratic pronunciation [AzeemAK@aol.com] Re: Joni's idiosyncratic pronunciation [Catherine McKay ] Re: Joni's idiosyncratic pronunciation [Little Bird ] hissing of summer lawns ["Marianne Rizzo" ] re: the hissing ["mia ortlieb" ] Re: Joni's idiosyncratic pronunciation [colin ] Ute and Joni [Rdalindley@aol.com] Re: onlyJMDL Digest V2003 #126 [Randy Remote ] Woman Of Heart & Mind [Bob Shemkovitz ] Is this something for the jmdl archives? ["Heather" ] stevie wonder ["Kate Bennett" ] re: the hissing [Catherine McKay ] Re: Hissing [PassScribe@aol.com] Re: Joni's idiosyncratic pronunciation [Catherine McKay ] Re: Norah's Grammies [PassScribe@aol.com] Re: onlyJMDL Digest V2003 #126 [PassScribe@aol.com] Re: onlyJMDL Digest V2003 #126 [PassScribe@aol.com] Re: joni and tori nexus [Little Bird ] joni's blue on the life and times / woman of heart and mind [magsnbrei ] Re: joni and tori nexus [Randy Remote ] Re: joni and tori nexus [cul heath ] Re: joni and tori nexus [Little Bird ] Ginsberg, relevant Joni content at the end [David Marine ] Re: joni and tori nexus [Murphycopy@aol.com] Today's Library Links: April 12 [ljirvin@jmdl.com] Re: hissing of the summer lawns ["ron" ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 22:32:08 -0700 From: "kakki" Subject: Re: Down to you and tidbits Maggie wrote: > I was there, and it was a much better concert than "local lore" would suggest. Yes, she walked off, but she came >back on and it was a very good show. But then again, I was as big a fan then as I am now, so perhaps I was more >willing to forgive the whole thing than a non-fan skeptic. You think? We think alike LOL. I remember reading here a few accounts of that day and my conclusion was that, rather than the speculation she was being difficult or was inebriated, that she may have been suffering from a touch of heatstroke or heat exhaustion. Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 05:56:56 EDT From: AzeemAK@aol.com Subject: Joni's idiosyncratic pronunciation I was listening to David Gilmour on Desert Island Discs this morning. What a splendid fellow he is, a seemingly completely sane man with a proper sense of his place in The Great Scheme Of Things. Interesting choice of music too, including Dylan, Cohen, Waits, the Kinks, Martha & The Vandellas - and Joni Mitchell! It was apt that he chose For Free, as he'd been talking about the struggle between earning money as a musician and knowing that you are vastly overpaid (at least when you get to his level - he recently sold his London house for #4m and gave all the money to a homeless charity). Anyway, it was a while since I'd listened to the song, and I heard it twice as I'd missed the first prog when it was first broadcast. And the second time, one thing really stuck out: at the end of the line about shopping for jewels, she really over-enunciates the word - "Joo-wells". And then with "schools" on the next line, she follows suit, leading to a distinctly odd "Schoo-wells". I don't know if this has been discussed before, but I was wondering if this is due to a quirk of Canadian pronunciation; and if there are other instances of this kind of unusual practice. Azeem in London NP: Richard Thompson - Cooksferry Queen PS Kristin Scott Thomas, one of my favourite actresses, was on the prog last week - she's got good taste too: an early Miles Davis (So What), Strauss's Four Last Songs, John Martyn (Spencer The Rover), Prince (Boys & Girls - I didn't know Under The Cherry Moon was her first film - could have drowned her movie career at birth), The Clash's Train In Vain, etc ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 07:04:49 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: Joni's idiosyncratic pronunciation --- AzeemAK@aol.com wrote, of Joni's "For Free", > one thing really stuck out: at the end of the > line about shopping for > jewels, she really over-enunciates the word - > "Joo-wells". And then with > "schools" on the next line, she follows suit, > leading to a distinctly odd > "Schoo-wells". I don't know if this has been > discussed before, but I was > wondering if this is due to a quirk of Canadian > pronunciation; and if there > are other instances of this kind of unusual > practice. Not this Canadian. It sounds off to me. I wonder whether she would say that in speaking, but I doubt it. She may have dragged it out deliberately to rhyme with "J00-wells" (I find even that word a bit extreme to be honest.) I find that part of the song kind of jarring - it's like people who say "fil-um" and "el-um" for "film" and "elm" - I don't know if that's a regional dialect, a class thing, or just that some people have a hard time putting an /l/ and an /m/ together like that. ===== Catherine Toronto ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 08:42:42 EDT From: Bobsart48@aol.com Subject: Re: onlyJMDL Digest V2003 #126 Blair surmised: > It could be the snide hissing of gossipy men and women living in the > suburbs.... The way people talk about each other in such controlled living > spaces is usually not without a touch of cruelty.. > > > > > > I am somewhat experienced about living in the suburbs, having done so for 50 of my 54 years. That has not been a particularly distinctive experience for me. I can relate to Joni's "no color, no contrast" analogy, and to other images and metaphors for such hissing, but I do not think that one is what Joni was aiming at. Also there is a tendency to not even really know one's neighbors in the burbs (perhaps from lack of contact). I am not sure what is so controlled about the living spaces in the suburbs, either. Has this been your experience, living in the suburbs ? Bobsart ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 08:47:10 EDT From: Bobsart48@aol.com Subject: Re: onlyJMDL Digest V2003 #126 In a message dated 4/11/03 3:01:13 AM Eastern Daylight Time, les@jmdl.com writes: > These neighborhoods are mostly white, all rich, yards groomed, > everything under control. These things it shares with middle-class > suburbia. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 08:48:39 EDT From: Bobsart48@aol.com Subject: Re: onlyJMDL Digest V2003 #126 Randy wrote: > These neighborhoods are mostly white, all rich, yards groomed, > everything under control. These things it shares with middle-class > suburbia. Is the "all rich" juxtaposition with "middle class" not an oxymoron ? ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 08:49:41 EDT From: Bobsart48@aol.com Subject: Re: sorry My e-mail just "sent" 2 messages before they were complete, when I attempted to edit the caption. sorry. do not know why Bob sart ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 10:09:14 EDT From: Murphycopy@aol.com Subject: Re: onlyJMDL Digest V2003 #123 << Any chance of re-sending me the Loni Digest #124 & 125? >> Me too! I want to find out more about what Loni has been doing since since WKRP. Thanks, --Bob ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 07:20:01 -0700 From: Rick and Susan Subject: Re: Joni's idiosyncratic pronunciation On 4/11/03 2:56 AM, azeemak@aol.com wrote > And the second > time, one thing really stuck out: at the end of the line about shopping for > jewels, she really over-enunciates the word - "Joo-wells". And then with > "schools" on the next line, she follows suit, leading to a distinctly odd > "Schoo-wells". I don't know if this has been discussed before, but I was > wondering if this is due to a quirk of Canadian pronunciation; and if there > are other instances of this kind of unusual practice. I saw Joni in concert in the early 70's and she apologized for this pronunciation on the recording. She said she had no idea why she chose to sing it that way, kind of trailed off with a little chuckle, and proceeded to sing the song with the pronunciations "jools" and "skools". Rick ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 07:20:15 -0700 (PDT) From: Little Bird Subject: Re: Joni's idiosyncratic pronunciation >>I don't know if that's a regional dialect, a class thing, or just that some people have a hard time putting an /l/ and an /m/ together like that.>> I think it's a rhythm or rhyming thing. She likely wanted to stretch out the words to two syllables to fit the cord, just like she condensed "Esterella" into three syllables from four, making it "Es-tray-a." - -Andrew Yahoo! Tax Center - File online, calculators, forms, and more http://tax.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 10:46:16 -0400 From: "Jim Leonard" Subject: Re: Down to you and tidbits Bob Murphy asked Bob Muller: > Yikes, Bob! Isn't this the infamous Boston concert during which she walked off stage? Man, am I glad I skipped that one. (Not so sure I would have ever forgiven her lack of professionalism.) I had been talking up Joni to a friend at the time and he went to this concert. After that he never wanted to hear her name again! > That was my first opportunity to see Joni, who I'd loved since discovering her at the time of the release of the "Clouds" album. I was a SERIOUS fan, and had been made only more so by the "Hissing" through "Mingus" releases. I was disappointed by "Wild Things," but that didn't diminish the joyful anticipation I had waiting a couple of months for this concert. The show itself was part of the "Concerts On The Common" series, and began in the early evening, when - thanks to daylight savings time - it was still "broad daylight." Behind the seating areas, in the back of the makeshift venue constructed for the yearly series, were the concessions and the Port-O-San toilets. My sense as to why Joni walked off (in answer to Bobsart's later question) is that she got upset with people carrying drinks back to their seats (it WAS outside and it WAS July), or getting up to go relieve themselves. My memory is that, aside from the small amount of "milling about," the audience was very respectful and attentive. Tapes of the show may say she played 18 songs, but my recollection is that she walked off in a huff, mid-song ("Song For Sharon"!!! - my FAVORITE!!!) not too long after the show began. There was an announcement made, if recollection serves, saying that Joni would be back in a few minutes. Well, let me tell you ... that "few" minutes was close to, if not more than, an hour. At the point at which she did finally come back on it was night. She played a few more songs and then said something like "Come back and see me sometime when the lighting is better." Bob Muller has the tape, so maybe he can clarify on that point. I was livid, and lost a great deal of respect for Joni as "a person" that night. Much like Bob Murphy suggested, I felt so betrayed by her lack of professionalism and respect for her devoted audience that I have had a VERY hard time getting over it. I didn't play her music for close to a year, I don't believe, and have never truly forgiven her. Had I been Bob's friend - instead of already having 15 years of rabid fandom under my belt at that time - I would never have wanted to hear her name again, either. In the years since, thanks to interviews she has given, etc., I have come to view Joni (as "a person") as an egotistical prima donna. I have had to overcome that view to remain the fan that I am, since I've always liked my heroes to be, first and foremost, "nice people." I've been successful, though, which explains my continuing presence here. Best, (formerly Boston) Jim NP: Lyle Mays Trio at E.J.'s in Atlanta, GA on August 21, 1981 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 11:03:04 -0400 From: "Marianne Rizzo" Subject: hissing of summer lawns Little Bird wrote: > Well, what about the Hissing of Summer Lawns. What is > hissing? I always thought it was snakes. . . little garden snakes, slithering and hissing. Funny though, I had never *consciously* thought about it until now. Marianne _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 10:20:29 -0500 From: "mia ortlieb" Subject: re: the hissing Hi Andrew, I have to say that the lawn sprinklers never occured to me until after I joined this list. Although the sprinklers make total sense to me now, I'll still share with you what I "used to" think "hissing of summer lawns" meant. As a child, I used to be somewhat of a tomboy, and I played outside in the trees, fields, and parks alot. (then I grew up and discovered insects, yuk!) I remember having intensely humid, hot summers sometimes here in Wisconsin, and I remember laying on the ground level with the grass and actually seeing the grass sizzle and steam under the heat.. it did sort of make a "hissing" sound to me. It may have just been my wild imagination, or perhaps it is along the lines of "hearing the humming in the wires in the walls".....which I used to hear, as well. Mia - who still can't believe "liquid Melvin" is actually "leadfoot Melvin" _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 16:33:13 +0100 From: colin Subject: Re: Joni's idiosyncratic pronunciation schools and jewells rhyme without elongating them. Maybe she just felt like it, it had to fit the note or was being prentious. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 12:45:21 EDT From: Rdalindley@aol.com Subject: Ute and Joni So after all of the talk after the Wall to Wall event about Ute Lemper, I was reading an article in a Chicago magazine asking about Ute's upcoming tour. "WHAT CAN WE LOOK FORWARD TO AT YOUR SHOW? UTE: Most of the new album and all of my own songs. I have a great band of New York musicians and a great crew. It's just great to be on the road, I might do the new tribute to Joni Mitchell set." Might be a great chance for some of us to hear the songs she did at Sympony Space - I'd love to hear her Black Crow. I know in Chicago she's going to be at the Athenaeum on April 13 - 14. And she's playing the Bottom Line in NYC. Rob - in the blue TV screen light ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 10:57:19 -0700 From: Randy Remote Subject: Re: onlyJMDL Digest V2003 #126 Bobsart48@aol.com wrote: > Randy wrote: > > > >> These neighborhoods are mostly white, all rich, yards groomed, >> everything under control. These things it shares with middle-class >> suburbia. > > Is the "all rich" juxtaposition with "middle class" not an oxymoron ? I don't think so. The shrinking middle class (more so now than then) is increasingly the working poor, credit cards maxed, jobs in jeopardy. "Take away our Play Stations and we are a third world country" - -Ani DiFranco My point was that the world Joni was describing was upper-class, not middle. Although it's all relative. To someone in Sudan or Bulgaria, our middle class is wealthy. RR ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 15:13:12 -0400 From: Bob Shemkovitz Subject: Woman Of Heart & Mind I just found this description of the upcoming DVD release at the Eagle Vision site located at: http://www.eaglevisionusa.com/home.htm > Joni Mitchell > Woman of Heart and Mind > Documentary > > This DVD is a complete look at the extraordinary career, life and artistry of > singer/songwriter/poet/painter Joni Mitchell. On Wednesday, April 2, 2003, the > famed, award winning PBS series 3American Masters2 will premiere a > ninety-minute documentary on the life of Joni Mitchell. > > Her prolific sense of artistry and passion for sharing has brought many a > feeling from the heart to the head. 3Joni Mitchell: Woman of Heart and Mind2 > is a unique look at Joni Mitchell: as an artist of magnitude and sensibility. > > Features: > Interviews > Photo Gallery > Discography > 6 languages: German, French, Italian, Dutch, Spanish & Portuguese. I'd been hoping that some of the concert & tv song performances would be included in their entirety as extras, but it looks like that won't be the case. Still, that feature listed as "Interviews" sounds promising - I'm guessing it's more of the recent Joni interview that was excerpted in the show. Definitely looking forward to this release! Bob ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 16:00:59 -0400 From: "Heather" Subject: Is this something for the jmdl archives? I'm not sure if this is pertinent to the jmdl so please bear with me. I had forgotten that I own an interview cd, complete with fully illustrated book, with Annie Lennox. I think the interview was conducted by Lucian Randall ... at least that is the name on the box and book. Anyhoo, in the interview she makes a notable reference to Joni Mitchell as her prime inspiration. Is this something that should be noted in the jmdl files or is it already there? I can make an audio clip of that segment of the interview if there is an interest for it. Resident jmdl doofus on these matters, Heather ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 18:19:09 EDT From: RoseMJoy@aol.com Subject: Re: Ute and Joni Kewl...thanks for the info Rob, I'd love to see her do some Joni covers again.... Do u have her website address? rosie in nj In the morning there are lovers in the street They look so high You brush against a stranger And you both apologize ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 19:19:48 -0400 From: "patrick leader" Subject: joni and tori nexus it's quite logical to be a joni and a tori fan. and tori worships joni, although i'll bet joni would listen to tori and say 'i did all that already'. that's joni's well-known blind spot, when she hears a younger female musician, she usually only hears the similarities, and the differences escape her entirely. i only once met wally breese, who created jonimitchell.com and probably still counts as the biggest joni mitchell fan of all time, and he was also a huge tori amos freak. at the time, he told me that he was so obsessed with tori's live covers that every time she sang a new cover version in concert, he had to track down a tape of it. he had 64 concert tapes! and this was in 1998! some time soon after i joined the list (which i think was in 1997) i wrote a long, semi-scholarly (well, serious at least) comparison of the first verses of 'a case of you' and 'tear in your hand', pointing out similarities and differences, noting that each had strong shifts from impassioned to sarcastic at similar points. i mean just look at the fourth line of each: joni: if you want me i'll be in the bar tori: if you need me, me and neil'll be hanging out with the dream king i can't find the original post; the jmdl archives don't go back that far. but the point of both songs is so similar, an evocation of love that won't work and yet is still unescapable, despite the pain 'taste so bitter and so sweet' 'you don't know the power that you have, with that tear in your hand. two brilliant songs. patrick np - tori - crucify ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 16:25:22 -0700 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: stevie wonder >>i would compare these 4 lps to jonis' blue-roses-court-and hissing periods. and they are just as good. give em a listen, you'll see.<< i agree, those 4 albums are top top top top of my list ....one of my fav songs (forget which album) from that time period is/was AS... npimh- 'i'll be lovin you always' stevie wonder www.katebennett.com "Lyrically, it's a work of art overall. Brilliant writing, absolutely." Indie-music.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 20:49:04 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: re: the hissing --- mia ortlieb wrote: > As a child, I used to be somewhat of a tomboy, and I > played outside in the > trees, fields, and parks alot. (then I grew up and > discovered insects, yuk!) > I remember having intensely humid, hot summers > sometimes here in Wisconsin, > and I remember laying on the ground level with the > grass and actually seeing > the grass sizzle and steam under the heat.. it did > sort of make a "hissing" > sound to me. It may have just been my wild > imagination, or perhaps it is > along the lines of "hearing the humming in the wires > in the walls".....which > I used to hear, as well. You're not the only one, Mia. I swear to God, between the heat and the bugs and stuff just growing, that summer lawns do hiss. And I hear humming in the walls too (now that could be tinnitus, or schizophrenia, but I think not - wires do hum.) Can anyone else smell snow coming? ===== Catherine Toronto ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 22:25:11 EDT From: PassScribe@aol.com Subject: Re: Hissing In a message dated 4/11/03 3:01:24 AM, Andrew writes: << Well, what about the Hissing of Summer Lawns. What is hissing? Is it lawnmowers? Is it sprinkler systems? Is it the lurking snakes of desire and discontent, slithering through the manicured lawns of Pretense, Iowa? Thoughts please. - - -Andrew >> I always thought of the Hissing of Summer Lawns as being exactly that; the sound the grasses of a lawn might make while blowing gently in the breeze of an otherwise quiet, hot summer day. Kenny B ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 22:27:19 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: Joni's idiosyncratic pronunciation --- Little Bird wrote: > > I think it's a rhythm or rhyming thing. She likely > wanted to stretch out the words to two syllables to > fit the cord, just like she condensed "Esterella" > into > three syllables from four, making it "Es-tray-a." Yeah, but isn't it Estrella? If you pronounced it the Spanish way, it would be "Es-tray-a". (Spanish word for star.) ===== Catherine Toronto ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 19:29:36 -0700 (PDT) From: Little Bird Subject: Re: Joni's idiosyncratic pronunciation Oh, I didn't realize "Es-tray-a" meant star in Spanish. I like that! On Annie Lennox's cover version of the song she sings "Es-ter-el-la." - -Andrew - --- Catherine McKay wrote: > --- Little Bird wrote: > > > > I think it's a rhythm or rhyming thing. She likely > > wanted to stretch out the words to two syllables > to > > fit the cord, just like she condensed "Esterella" > > into > > three syllables from four, making it "Es-tray-a." > > Yeah, but isn't it Estrella? If you pronounced it > the > Spanish way, it would be "Es-tray-a". (Spanish word > for star.) > > > ===== > Catherine > Toronto > > ______________________________________________________________________ > > Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca Yahoo! Tax Center - File online, calculators, forms, and more http://tax.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 22:37:21 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: joni and tori nexus --- patrick leader wrote: > it's quite logical to be a joni and a tori fan. and > tori worships joni, > although i'll bet joni would listen to tori and say > 'i did all that > already'. that's joni's well-known blind spot, when > she hears a younger > female musician, she usually only hears the > similarities, and the > differences escape her entirely. This is one thing that does irritate me about Joni. She rarely says anything good about other artists, especially female artists, and most especially younger female artists. She seems to be a bit of a misogynist that way. Likes to think of herself as "one of the boys". She's often quoted saying things like that. i wonder how much of it is taken out of context? She does admire some older female singers, like Billie Holiday. The only female contemporary I can think of that Joni has had anything good to say about is Laura Nyro. As for younger ones, I think she finds Bjork interesting (but that doesn't mean she likes her). Has she ever said anything about Tori Amos? ===== Catherine Toronto ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 22:37:56 EDT From: PassScribe@aol.com Subject: Re: Norah's Grammies In a message dated 4/11/03 3:01:24 AM, Steve T writes: << Leave Norah alone! No she didn't deserve all those Grammies but it's an excellent debut which is consistently good all the way through. I love it. I'd rather her album be at # 1 than Shania or Celine. Let's face it, not much good credible music does that well in the charts these days. >> Why don't you think Norah deserved those Grammies? I mean, I have the album and-while it's not in my top ten of all time- it's a lot better than a lot of other stuff that's accepted by "the masses". Was voted the #1 album by WFUV listeners in their annual poll so someone liked it a lot. I think she and Jesse Harris are fine writers and deserve their due as much as anyone else that was nominated. Kenny B ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 22:41:40 EDT From: PassScribe@aol.com Subject: Re: onlyJMDL Digest V2003 #126 In a message dated 4/11/03 3:01:24 AM, Walt writes: "talking book"-'72-A+++ great album all the way thru every track a gem highlights: sunshine of my life blame it on the sun tuesday heartbreak (wow) superstition & maybe your baby (especially) "innervisions"-'73-A absolutely flawless. this is music that makes you believe in faith. highlights include: living in the city golden lady and don't you worry bout a thing "fulfilingness' first finale"-'74-A- superb highlights are: you haven't done nothin & boogie on reggae woman "songs in the key of life"-'76-A+++ such wit and variety-enough for 2 albums. (which it was) sir duke isn't she lovely love's in need of love today have a talk with God and many more i would compare these 4 lps to jonis' blue-roses-court-and hissing periods. and they are just as good. give em a listen, you'll see. << if you want i'll continue. he's made so many great albums (but these 4 are where you start) >> Walt; I'll agree with you 100% on your Stevie Wonder reviews. Kenny B ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 22:45:11 EDT From: PassScribe@aol.com Subject: Re: onlyJMDL Digest V2003 #126 Mesage to all Joni onliners: I had a problem with my server (preferences went off so my e-mail that I opened and thought I was saving to read "later" was lost). Any chance of anyone re-sending me the Joni Digests #124 & 125 if you saved them. I actually have gotten so used to reading them that I really miss not being able to see what was on these two. If possible, thanks! Kenny B (Maybe e-mail me first to see if someone else already sent them so you don't waste your time.) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 19:47:50 -0700 (PDT) From: Little Bird Subject: Re: joni and tori nexus She's publicly knocked Alanis, Sheryl Crow, The Indigo Girls and Madonna to name but a few. I don't think she's said anything bad about Tori, specifically, but I would guess that she'd dismiss her as a "tributary." In the "W" interview last fall she said that, of all the "new" female artists, she thought Bjork possessed the most natural female sexuality - that there was no artifice in her voice and that it came straight from her gut. She also said she didn't really relate to her as a musician, so there you go - she has to quip about how they aren't quite up to par even when she likes them. She did mention she wanted to work with Sinead O'Connor at one point but it never panned out - again, she liked the authenticity of the voice. I don't know if I'd go so far as to call her a mysogynist, but she certainly seems uncomfortable being surrounded by female admirers. I get the impression she likes it better when a young male artist enjoys her work, as opposed to a young female artist. I wonder why that is? - -Andrew - --- Catherine McKay wrote: > --- patrick leader wrote: > > it's > quite logical to be a joni and a tori fan. and > > tori worships joni, > > although i'll bet joni would listen to tori and > say > > 'i did all that > > already'. that's joni's well-known blind spot, > when > > she hears a younger > > female musician, she usually only hears the > > similarities, and the > > differences escape her entirely. > > This is one thing that does irritate me about Joni. > She rarely says anything good about other artists, > especially female artists, and most especially > younger > female artists. She seems to be a bit of a > misogynist > that way. Likes to think of herself as "one of the > boys". She's often quoted saying things like that. i > wonder how much of it is taken out of context? She > does admire some older female singers, like Billie > Holiday. The only female contemporary I can think of > that Joni has had anything good to say about is > Laura > Nyro. As for younger ones, I think she finds Bjork > interesting (but that doesn't mean she likes her). > Has > she ever said anything about Tori Amos? > > > ===== > Catherine > Toronto > > ______________________________________________________________________ > > Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca Yahoo! Tax Center - File online, calculators, forms, and more http://tax.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 19:55:52 -0700 (PDT) From: magsnbrei Subject: joni's blue on the life and times / woman of heart and mind I am sure it has been discussed before, however, can anyone tell me where the live segment of Blue is from? What venue? what a heart wrenching performance. Absolutely exquisite. I am struck by the similarity of Kilauren and Joni's voices...I had my back to the screen for a moment and thought I was listening to Kilauren. some beautiful tender moments with Joni, Kilauren and the grandbabies..I know, Ive said this before and it is worth mentioning again...and again. Wonderful that Ann-Marie McDonald was the host of the Canadian programme. She is a Canadian actor, among other things, and she participated in the Hommage for Joni in Toronto, October 2001. I think she recited one of Joni's songs however I can't remember which one..anyone know? canuckian Mags np: same situation, joni on lthe cbc life and times You open my heart, you do. Yes you do. - JM Yahoo! Tax Center - File online, calculators, forms, and more ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 22:57:37 EDT From: PassScribe@aol.com Subject: Re: "Loni" Digests In a message dated 4/11/03 3:01:24 AM, les@jmdl.com writes: << re-sending me the Loni Digest #124 & 125? Kenny et al - I've contacted the list master of the Loni Anderson discussion list and he said he'll get back to you soon on those digests. Here's a link for you in the meantime: http://conterra.com/bookter/loni/loni.htm . I believe this is the first mention of Loni in the history of the JMDL. Just funnin' with ya Kenny! All digests can be found here http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni and are archived immediately upon release. In case you forget the link, just look in the header of every single mesage you get from the JMDL... the link will be there for you. Thanks, Les >> You know; I just saw my own post in this digest (above this one, somewhere) and I thought to myself, as I read it, "LONI ???" Holy @#$%&*; I can't believe I wrote LONI !!! (Duh...those two keys are only separated by the "k" and, since I'm the fastest two-fingered typist in the east, I guess I fell a little short on that one... Jeeeeesh!) Anyway, now that I know where to find those archived Digests, everybody can forget about sending me them if you were so inclined. (Hey; I wonder if Loni Anderson HAS a website. Probably, eh?) Lenny B. (errrr... I mean, Kenny B.; yeah, that's it.) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 20:01:29 -0700 (PDT) From: magsnbrei Subject: Re: joni's blue on the life and times / woman of heart and mind ooops sorry about that..I meant...when I heard Kilauren speaking, I thought it was Joni. Oh nevermind. You knew what I meant anyway. Mags. You open my heart, you do. Yes you do. - JM Yahoo! Tax Center - File online, calculators, forms, and more ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 23:16:45 EDT From: PassScribe@aol.com Subject: Lou Reed story Hey, Patrick Just wanted you to know I loved your Lou Reed story (from the Digest that I accidently erased, from 4-10 but found in the archives.) Yes; only in New York City! Kenny B ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 20:22:41 -0700 From: Randy Remote Subject: Re: Woman Of Heart & Mind Oh, good they're gonna put some extra stuff on it-looking forward to the first jmdl review of this DVD. http://www.eaglevisionusa.com/html/music_d/Joni-Woman.htm Bob Shemkovitz wrote: > I just found this description of the upcoming DVD release at the Eagle > Vision site located at: http://www.eaglevisionusa.com/home.htm > > > Joni Mitchell > > Woman of Heart and Mind > > Documentary > > > > This DVD is a complete look at the extraordinary career, life and artistry of > > singer/songwriter/poet/painter Joni Mitchell. On Wednesday, April 2, 2003, the > > famed, award winning PBS series 3American Masters2 will premiere a > > ninety-minute documentary on the life of Joni Mitchell. > > > > Her prolific sense of artistry and passion for sharing has brought many a > > feeling from the heart to the head. 3Joni Mitchell: Woman of Heart and Mind2 > > is a unique look at Joni Mitchell: as an artist of magnitude and sensibility. > > > > Features: > > Interviews > > Photo Gallery > > Discography > > 6 languages: German, French, Italian, Dutch, Spanish & Portuguese. > > I'd been hoping that some of the concert & tv song performances would be > included in their entirety as extras, but it looks like that won't be the > case. Still, that feature listed as "Interviews" sounds promising - I'm > guessing it's more of the recent Joni interview that was excerpted in the > show. Definitely looking forward to this release! ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 20:26:36 -0700 From: Randy Remote Subject: Re: joni and tori nexus Little Bird wrote: I don't know if I'd go so far as to call her a > mysogynist, but she certainly seems uncomfortable > being surrounded by female admirers. I get the > impression she likes it better when a young male > artist enjoys her work, as opposed to a young female > artist. I wonder why that is? For that matter, she doesn't seem to want to work with female musicians on her recordings. I'm having a hard time thinking of any, but I'm sure she has. There was that live (Amnesty?) version of No. 1 with the singer from Sting's band. Yet every woman musician out there considers her an influence...the mystery deepens...I'm losing good sleep.... Goodnight RR ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 20:28:50 -0700 From: cul heath Subject: Re: joni and tori nexus patrick leader wrote: >it's quite logical to be a joni and a tori fan. and tori worships joni, >although i'll bet joni would listen to tori and say 'i did all that >already'. that's joni's well-known blind spot, when she hears a younger >female musician, she usually only hears the similarities, and the >differences escape her entirely. > >i only once met wally breese, who created jonimitchell.com and probably >still counts as the biggest joni mitchell fan of all time, and he was also a >huge tori amos freak. at the time, he told me that he was so obsessed with >tori's live covers that every time she sang a new cover version in concert, >he had to track down a tape of it. he had 64 concert tapes! and this was >in 1998! > >some time soon after i joined the list (which i think was in 1997) i wrote a >long, semi-scholarly (well, serious at least) comparison of the first verses >of 'a case of you' and 'tear in your hand', pointing out similarities and >differences, noting that each had strong shifts from impassioned to >sarcastic at similar points. i mean just look at the fourth line of each: > >joni: if you want me i'll be in the bar >tori: if you need me, me and neil'll be hanging out with the dream king > >i can't find the original post; the jmdl archives don't go back that far. >but the point of both songs is so similar, an evocation of love that won't >work and yet is still unescapable, despite the pain 'taste so bitter and so >sweet' 'you don't know the power that you have, with that tear in your hand. >two brilliant songs. > >patrick > >np - tori - crucify ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 20:35:58 -0700 (PDT) From: Little Bird Subject: Re: joni and tori nexus She performed with Buffy Saint-Marie in the early days and mentioned how much she enjoyed that experience. She also sang with Bjork live at Don Henley's "El Nino" concert in 1999. But yes, she has really not pursued duets with female artists and nearly all the women she claims as influences are from a much older era of crooners and jazz singers, except Laura Nyro. Oh, the mysteries of Joni's hotwired head! - -Andrew Yahoo! Tax Center - File online, calculators, forms, and more http://tax.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 21:29:10 -0700 From: David Marine Subject: Ginsberg, relevant Joni content at the end Hey list -- I couldn't let this Ginsberg smear alone, so let me once again speak in his defense. Ginsberg always specifically stated that he was not in favor of sex with pre-pubescent boys, and that he was a strong advocate of laws that protected innocent children from predators. He was one of the most gentle souls ever to walk the earth, and the idea that he was a predator himself or advocated any action that would harm children is simply incorrect. Ginsberg was an activist, and at the time he joined NAMBLA, the Reagan administration was on a witch-hunt. NAMBLA's charter specifically states that it is NOT in favor of any illegal sexual activity, but rather a discussion of the laws that dictate what sexual practices are allowed. For example, In Hawaii a 14-year-old boy is free to choose his sex partners, in Maryland he is not. NAMBLA works to address these discrepancies. No doubt there are evil predators in NAMBLA, but that does not mean the group should not be free to have an open discussion of sexuality and the laws that govern sexuality. There are evil predators in the Democratic and Republican parties, too. This advocacy of Ginsberg's is in keeping with his life's work, which openly and fearlessly challenged government oppression of free speech and consensual sexuality. I can tell you now that all of you on this list who consider yourselves gay owe a huge debt of gratitude to Ginsberg, who was censured, censored, and vilified for his early work (which ended up as a catalyst for the sexual and gay liberation movements). Ginsberg died six years ago this month. For those interested in his life, there was an eloquent obituary in the Times: http://www.nytimes.com/learning/general/onthisday/bday/0603.html Those who read the above link may see the Joni connections. Beyond that, Joni has talked a lot about the separation of the artist and his/her art. For example, she clearly respects Picasso's ability despite personal behavior that most would abhor. Or Van Gogh, who would piss in your fireplace, and drag you through turbulent indigo. And I believe she would wish the same separation to apply to her art and life as well. Does one dismiss T.S. Eliot based upon the assertion that he was an anti-Semite (an assertion strongly challenged by the appearance of recent letters)? What about Wagner? It's dangerous to pigeonhole an artist based upon isolated statements and affiliations without an attempt to understand their historical context. And even if an artist is judged to be abhorrent, is that reason to dismiss great art if they produce it? Best, David ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2003 00:31:15 EDT From: Murphycopy@aol.com Subject: Re: joni and tori nexus Andrew writes: << I get the impression she likes it better when a young male artist enjoys her work, as opposed to a young female artist. I wonder why that is? >> Heterosexuality? ;-) --Bob ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 21:36:12 -0700 (PDT) From: Little Bird Subject: Re: joni and tori nexus > << I get the impression she likes it better when a > young male artist enjoys > her work, as opposed to a young female artist. I > wonder why that is? >> > > Heterosexuality? Oh, that. I can barely spell the word! - -Andrew (pretty in pink) Yahoo! Tax Center - File online, calculators, forms, and more http://tax.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2003 00:49:41 EDT From: Murphycopy@aol.com Subject: Re: joni and tori nexus Andrew wrote: << I get the impression she likes it better when a > young male artist enjoys > her work, as opposed to a young female artist. I > wonder why that is? >> And I suggested: > Heterosexuality? To which he replied: >Oh, that. I can barely spell the word! Me again: Now, Andrew . . . With all this discussion of sodomy we've been forcing on the hets, it's time they had some bandwidth! --Bob PS: I had to spellcheck the word before I sent my original post! ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2003 02:37:33 -0400 From: ljirvin@jmdl.com Subject: Today's Library Links: April 12 On April 12 the following item was published: 2002: "Second annual Swag charity auction" - Canadian Press (News Item) http://www.jmdl.com/articles/view.cfm?id=796 ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2003 08:56:43 +0200 From: "ron" Subject: Re: hissing of the summer lawns hi i always associated the hissing in the title with something sinister. like everything looks smooth and green and uniform, and "no colour no contrast" but if you listen closely you can hear the hissing of snakes and evil and also just the basic primitive urges of mankind going on under all that repression. hence the picture of the snakes and tribal people on the cover. and if it really is about sprinklers im gonna be really, really disppointed. ron np - chelsea morning - 2nd fret sets ------------------------------ End of onlyJMDL Digest V2003 #127 ********************************* ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she? 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