From: les@jmdl.com (onlyJMDL Digest) To: onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Subject: onlyJMDL Digest V2003 #123 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/onlyjoni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com Unsubscribe: mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe onlyJMDL Digest Wednesday, April 9 2003 Volume 2003 : Number 123 Sign up now for JoniFest 2003! http://www.jonifest.com ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: Diana Krall Singing Case of You ["Kate Bennett" ] Re: Our kids getting hooked on Joni ["Lori Fye" ] Re: Down to you [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Musings on the Muse [emil thompson ] Blue, and Hejira [] Re: JMDL Digest V2003 #224 [JSerkes@aol.com] children or career [twoshoes@sasktel.net] Re: MacMath ["Mark or Travis" ] Re: Joni/Judy [Rick and Susan ] Kids Liking Joni ["Emily Griskavich" ] Re: Blue, and Hejira [Dan Olson ] Re: Kids Liking Joni ["Lori Fye" ] Re: Blue, and Hejira [Murphycopy@aol.com] FW: blue ["theodore" ] Re: Down to you ["Lavieri, Vince [185776]" ] Re: Joni/Judy, meaning of Cohen [Murphycopy@aol.com] Blue [Steve Dulson ] catchin up with the list ["walterphil" ] Re: FW: blue [magsnbrei ] Re: Kids Liking Joni ["mack watson-bush" ] RE: FW: blue ["theodore" ] Re: Musings on the Muse [Catherine McKay ] Joni & Graham [] Re: JMDL Digest V2003 #224 [Gary Zack ] Re: Our kids getting hooked on Joni [PassScribe@aol.com] Re: Our kids getting hooked on Joni [PassScribe@aol.com] Re:Hooked on Joni & JoniFest [PassScribe@aol.com] RE: Hooked on Joni & JoniFest ["theodore" ] True, so true... [] Re: Our kids getting hooked on Joni [Susan Guzzi ] RE: UN Reports Congo Killing Spree, etc. ["Lori Fye" ] Re: UN Reports Congo Killing Spree, etc. ["Christopher Treacy" ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 00:09:42 -0700 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: Re: Diana Krall Singing Case of You >I'd add Cyndi Lauper's electrifying/slow-burn take on Carey to that list as well. They were all well done, but these really took the songs beyond the normal interpretations.< absoluuuuuuutely! an amazing version & performance by cyndi on this great song... www.katebennett.com "Lyrically, it's a work of art overall. Brilliant writing, absolutely." Indie-music.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 06:49:46 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: Today's Library Links: April 8 --- ljirvin@jmdl.com wrote: > On April 8 the following items were published: > > > 1976: "The Hissing of Winter Concerts" - Rolling > Stone > (Review - Concert, with photographs) > http://www.jmdl.com/articles/view.cfm?id=1 > Considering it was RS that called "The Hissing of Summer Lawns" [one of?] the worst album titles ever, how ironic they should give such a name to their article. Joni seems to be doing a Big Bird impression in the photo. What was she thinking? Oh yeah, it was the 70s. P.S. there are a couple of para's missing at the end of this article (see Les's note at the end.) I betcha someone out there has this and could send them to him. All I have is last week's TV guide but it's recycling day today. ===== Catherine Toronto ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 07:58:24 EDT From: Bobsart48@aol.com Subject: Re: onlyJMDL Digest V2003 #121 Emiliano wrote : "That galician journey of our Queen, it must have been around 1980 / '82" And of course there was that trip to Spain in 1970 that earned the verse in California So I bourght me a ticket I caught a plane to Spain Went to a party down a red dirt road There were lots of pretty people there Reading Rolling Stone, reading Vogue They said "How long can you hang around ? I said "A week maybe two, just until my skin turns brown Then I'm goin home to California.......... Bobsart (probably a day or two late with this one, as usual) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 08:06:01 EDT From: AsharaJM@aol.com Subject: Re: Our kids getting hooked on Joni In a message dated 4/7/2003 9:37:04 PM Eastern Standard Time, PassScribe@aol.com writes: > After reading these reports of fans' kids getting involved in Joni, I > have to relate the night my son came over to our place specifically to > listen > to some Joni. I love the thought of this. You mean there *may* be hope yet for my 4 sons?? :-) Hugs, Ashara ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 08:08:31 EDT From: Bobsart48@aol.com Subject: Re: MacMath Bob M reminded us: > There's some video of Brad (not Mark) MacMath in the video trees, I see more > > Joni genes in Kilauren that Brad genes. Wouldn't it have been ironic if Joni had ended up Joni MacMath ;-) Bobsart ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 07:12:00 -0500 From: "Happy The Man" Subject: Re: Our kids getting hooked on Joni My boys recognized Joni, but they would perfer not to here her. If it isn't Dashboard or Bright Eyes or that skater punk folk as I call it then about the only they listen to with me is James Taylor and Van Morrison. Peace, Craig NP: Sixpence - Don't Dream It's Over - ----- Original Message ----- From: To: ; Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2003 7:06 AM Subject: Re: Our kids getting hooked on Joni > In a message dated 4/7/2003 9:37:04 PM Eastern Standard Time, > PassScribe@aol.com writes: > > > After reading these reports of fans' kids getting involved in Joni, I > > have to relate the night my son came over to our place specifically to > > listen > > to some Joni. > > I love the thought of this. You mean there *may* be hope yet for my 4 sons?? > :-) > > Hugs, > Ashara ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 08 Apr 2003 08:21:17 -0400 From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: MacMath In a message dated 4/8/2003 7:08:31 AM Eastern Standard Time, Bobsart48 writes: > Wouldn't it have been ironic if Joni had ended up Joni > MacMath ;-) Yes - she should have realized that with a name like that he would only help her to multiply, and then subtract himself after the addition to her family, causing the division between them. Bob NP: Joni, "Woodstock" Los Angeles 6/13/83 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 08:21:45 EDT From: Bobsart48@aol.com Subject: Re: onlyJMDL Digest V2003 #122 Larry wrote > I've never seen Ms. Krall in concert, but (as all of > you likely know) she performed ACOY on the All-Star > Joni Tribute TV special a couple years back and I > thought it was one of the highlights of the program. > Unlike most of the other performers, whose covers were > faithful to the point of photocopy, La Krall actually > managed to take the song somewhere else entirely than > Joni had. IMHO, only Sweet Honey In The Rock's > "Circle Game" rivalled Diana Krall's performance for > sheer (to make up a word here) interestingness. I agree that many of the songs had a "copy" rather than a "cover" feel to them, but I think that Cindy Lauper's "Carey", James Taylor's "River", Richard Thompson's "Woodstock", and Cassandra Wilson's "Dry Cleaner" were also quite good and at least a step or two away from the "copy" category. Bobsart ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 08 Apr 2003 05:22:46 -0700 From: "Lori Fye" Subject: Re: Blue and For the Roses Andrea wrote: > I had always thought that Blue was written with James Taylor in mind, It's generally believed that For The Roses was written with JT in mind. > but after watching the program thr other night, and reading so many > posts, it seems it must have been for Graham Nash, I'm not sure about Blue, although it's likely since the preceding album (LOTC) speaks volumes about Joni's relationship with Graham ("Willy" in particular). > Now, how about Hejira? Any ideas? I'm guessing John Guerin???? That would be the right time frame. Lori ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 08 Apr 2003 05:39:40 -0700 From: "Lori Fye" Subject: Re: Our kids getting hooked on Joni Hey Glorianna! Welcome! What a wonderful name and -- "daville72"? Do you drive one, or do you just like them a lot?? Kenny B wrote of his son: > He's a (high school English) teacher and another teacher had > mentioned Joni's lyrics to him and told him he should check them > out. I gained a LOT of my appreciation for lyrics and music from my 8th grade English teacher (Mr. Sikorski, where are you?), who regularly brought mimeographed (remember that smell?) copies of lyrics -- particularly those by Lennon & McCartney, and Simon & Garfunkel -- to class. Perhaps your son will pass on Joni's lyrics to his students, Kenny! One can hope! And wouldn't that be great?? Lori P.S. - Glorianna and Kenny, you are both going to JoniFest, yes?? www.jonifest.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 08:47:34 -0400 From: "michael o'malley" Subject: Re: Down to you I like this thread. Down to You touched me deeply in my early twenties and still feels very close to home to me now, twenty years later. There is a piano transcription in the C&S songbook, but it doesn't replicate the intricacies of Joni's fingering, rythm and melody. As far as I know, there is no piano transcription for the instrumental passage. You'd think some whip in Berkeley would have done this as part of coursework, no? Now wouldn't it be wonderful to see live footage of Joni performing Down to You? That would be something special. Does such a thing exist? I gather she didn't perform it live often. (Ever?) In reading the director's interview on the PBS- WOHAM site, I was struck by the fact that there seems to be little live Joni concert footage extant. What a shame. You don't know what you got, till it's gone, eh? Michael in Quebec. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 08 Apr 2003 09:08:49 -0400 From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: Down to you >I gather she >didn't perform it live often. (Ever?) She DID perform it on her '74 tour with the LA Express, it was not included on the Miles of Aisles collection, it's on a couple of other '74 shows I've got. And I'm glad she and/or Vince decided against a re-arrangement for T'log. The C&S version cannot be improved upon imo, although I do enjoy the few covers of Down To You that exist. Bob NP: "For Free", Stockholm 5/12/83 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 13:11:12 +0000 From: emil thompson Subject: Musings on the Muse >I don't understand why there is always this choice between staying with a guy and following her muse.< It's a good thing for us that Joni's had such a turbulent love life, cause that's what fuels about 90% of all great art..(that and suffering in general) ...just a thought. best to all emil ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 08:25:52 -0500 From: Subject: Blue, and Hejira Andrea wrote: "I had always thought that Blue was written with James Taylor in mind, but after watching the program thr other night, and reading so many posts, it seems it must have been for Graham Nash, Now, how about Hejira? Any ideas? I'm guessing John Guerin????" Andrea, I always thought "Blue" (the song) was written for Nash, and WOHAM would seem to bear out that sense. I may have gotten the idea years ago from Lenore Fleischman's (sp?) now out-of-print paperback biography of Joni from the mid-70's, which got some things wrong, but you know, got a lot of things right. However, more than that, I simply never got the sense the deep, deep emotional bond that existed between Joni and Graham Nash existed between Joni and JT. I'm not saying that Joni didn't care deeply for James, but the caring (I think) was on a different level. In WOHAM, Joni says that she hadn't ever experienced committing herself to another soul the way she did to Graham, or words to that effect. I believe her. And it's possible that, especially if you consider that all the intensity of first real love was present then, that she never did again. About Hejira: yes, I've always assumed that was about Guerin, mainly due to the timing. I know little about him, or his relationship with Joni. Finally, wasn't it interesting which of Joni's relationships with men "made the cut" in WOHAM, and which didn't? Nash was given front and center billing from Joni's early life, as was Klein, from the middle part of her life. And maybe it's not terribly surprising that neither Jackson Browne nor Don Freed was mentioned. But no JT, Don Alias, or Leonard Cohen--and a rather prominent mention for John Guerin? I wonder if Joni had input into these choices? If so, it goes to show how little we really know about the lives we *think* we know, if only from a distance--despite everything I wrote about Nash and JT, above. Take care, Mary P., LOVING, loving, LOVING all this wonderful Joni Content!!!!! Although, next time, I promise to write about something other than Joni's Men. ;-) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 09:43:29 EDT From: JSerkes@aol.com Subject: Re: JMDL Digest V2003 #224 This is the 5th anniversery of Laura Nyro's passage. A brilliant writer, singer....muse. Even Joni had kudos for her. That says alot. Love you Laura...Play ELI today. Nyrogrl ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 08 Apr 2003 07:49:32 -0600 From: twoshoes@sasktel.net Subject: children or career If we look at the times she was talking about, there was a lot of talk about freedom and love as an ideal, but the sex role stereotyping in the '60s was still very strong and for women it still was often a choice between being a mother/wife/homemaker or working outside the home. Let's not forget Joni's age -- it may very well have been that she herself could not conceive of doing both and doing both WELL -- women simply were not doing that then -- travelling and raising children at the same time -- and she is a bit of a perfectionist, we hear. When I heard her say that she didn't want to give up her music career in order to be a homemaker, it seemed from my perspective in history too bad, what a shame she couldn't do both, how unnecessary to have to make a choice like that. But the times were different. And even now, when you have kids at home and are working outside it as well, it can be a real stress -- even if everyone seems to be doing it or it's out of necessity. Or maybe she'd been reading Virginia Woolf, who said women's creative life has suffered throughout history because they could never get away from the kids and the housework. If only they had "a room of one's own," what a difference it would make. There is still a pervasive attitude that being a homemaker and raising children doesn't require much more than your presence, when in truth it takes -- if you're doing it 'well' (ie. keeping up with the neverending dishes, getting the sheets changed, the bathroom sanitized, and making muffins once in a while) -- most of your time and much of your energy. Unless you are one of the blessed supremely organized or one who can't be bothered with house hygiene (I'm simplifying, but you know what I mean), there is not much time in a day to focus on your artistic endeavours. It's a job where, if you have small children at home, you can't count on an uninterrupted coffee break or an eight-hour workday. I'm just glad men are pitching in on the home front these days, and with the kids. Graham would have been pursuing his career and Joni would have been expected to keep the home fires burning -- she must have thought -- and she was wise to forsee the sense of loss and resentment that would have resulted. Kate du Nord - -- http://xoetc.antville.org A Living Storybook > From: "theodore" > Subject: RE: blue > > I don't understand why there is always this choice between staying with > a guy and following her muse. Maybe I just don't understand the > relationship or the guy, or being a woman, or all three. Kate B: > i don't think the above is an always thing...obviously that is the way joni > saw it...we have heard her say in other interviews that she felt that graham > wanted a stay at home wife & kids etc which was not the path she was > on...for a many woman, having & raising children is definately a choice that > can take you away from a career & creative output or at least slow it down > or put it on hold... ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 06:51:13 -0700 From: "Mark or Travis" Subject: Re: MacMath SCJoniGuy@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 4/8/2003 7:08:31 AM Eastern Standard Time, > Bobsart48 writes: > >> Wouldn't it have been ironic if Joni had ended up Joni >> MacMath ;-) > > Yes - she should have realized that with a name like that he would > only help her to multiply, and then subtract himself after the > addition to her family, causing the division between them. > Yeah well when it comes to mathematics, I get static in the attic. Mark E in Seattle (can you imagine 'Brad's Dad's Mercury'?) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 08 Apr 2003 07:49:58 -0700 From: Rick and Susan Subject: Re: Joni/Judy On 4/7/03 9:29 AM, lacyslvs@juno.com wrote > This got me thinking about Joni's "The > Priest". I have always had a hunch that Joni wrote it about Cohen. The name Cohen translates as "priest" in Hebrew. Joni was romantically but briefly linked to Cohen around 1966-67. Rick ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 08 Apr 2003 09:50:07 -0500 From: "Emily Griskavich" Subject: Kids Liking Joni I'm not exactly a kid, being 22, but last January I was home for my Christmas break and I got really into my dad's copy of HOSL. Since he just got a car with a CD player, he was willing to let me take any tapes I wanted, so I brought it back to school with me. I listen to it every day. When I go home for Easter, I will probably steal his tape of "Court and Spark," and I'm also thinking about buying the Mingus album.--EG ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 08 Apr 2003 09:32:30 -0600 From: Dan Olson Subject: Re: Blue, and Hejira I think we have to consider that the songs on Blue (especially the song Blue) were written about the heartache of ending the relationship with Graham, but by the time she recorded them, she was having a little fling with JT (who accompanied her beautifully on a number of the songs). It was just a little fling (not worth mentioning), but she did say very nice things about how his guitar playing complemented her dulcimer playing. Blue is the only album with that instrumentation. At 08:25 AM 4/8/2003 -0500, you wrote: >Andrea wrote: > >"I had always thought that Blue was written with James Taylor in mind, but >after watching the program thr other night, and reading so many posts, it >seems it must have been for Graham Nash. Mary P. wrote: >Andrea, I always thought "Blue" (the song) was written for Nash, and WOHAM >would seem to bear out that sense.....I simply never got the sense the >deep, deep >emotional bond that existed between Joni and Graham Nash existed between Joni >and JT. I'm not saying that Joni didn't care deeply for James, but the caring >(I think) was on a different level. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 08 Apr 2003 09:36:30 -0700 From: "Lori Fye" Subject: Re: Kids Liking Joni Emily G wrote: > When I go home for Easter, I will probably steal his tape of "Court > and Spark," and I'm also thinking about buying the Mingus album. Awesome, Emily! And -- since I don't recall seeing posts from you before -- WELCOME! Have you heard "Don Juan's Reckless Daughter"? Lori near DC ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 12:42:40 EDT From: Murphycopy@aol.com Subject: Re: Blue, and Hejira Mary writes: << I simply never got the sense the deep, deep emotional bond that existed between Joni and Graham Nash existed between Joni and JT. >> Hi, everybody! It's me, delurking after about a half a day . . . I agree with Mary's take. Also, I think Joni -- who did have final approval for WOHAM, after all -- didn't include James much in the video because their love affair maybe wasn't a very happy one. (And since her relationship with Jackson Browne was even worse, he's in pieces all over the cutting room floor!) Regarding "Blue," here's another scenario: Maybe it was written to Graham after Joni had started seeing the troubled, drug addicted James. ("Hell's the hippest way to go, I don't think so, but I'm gonna take a look around it though . . . Blue, I love you") Works for me! Welcome to all the newbies! You're like a breath of fresh air in this lifeboat! --Bob ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 09:45:06 -0700 From: "theodore" Subject: FW: blue - -----Original Message----- From: theodore [mailto:theodore@buckfush.org] Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2003 9:45 AM To: 'Kate Bennett' Subject: RE: blue Well now that you put it that way. I never want to take a woman away from anything that makes her money! I could not stand someone staying at home, they would get in my way. Being around children makes me way more creative, but, I can see the time consuming part, plus they are little grumps wah wah wah. If I ever do have kids they're not staying around the house either they're going with me, or out with the woman to learn. There's nothing around the house but television, snack food, and stuff they are not allowed to touch. The sooner they start getting used to being part of the struggle the better. I didn't understand Graham's desire for a stay at home spouse. What I remember is a cool song about what a free spirit her old man is, and, her being way taller than Graham. I was pissed at Joni for marrying the Mitchell guy when she had reservations the entire time. Plus what kind of guy says "I have no intention of raising another man's child." I don't know but if I said that I hope she'd take a swing at me or leave or both. The women I've known would say "oh yeah well I have no intention of having sex with you." Back to me being pissed at Joni, as much as this Mitchell character tried to control her she was window shopping from the start. The last thing in the world this girl needed was a husband. She knows it ain't going to work all the way to "I do." That's weak. It's happened to me. I didn't deserve it. I don't understand that. Well I do because I've done similar things, but, in honesty, only because the sex was great, she had money, and I was a bum, or I had spent all her cash and now I felt guilty so I tried to make it up to her by making her think I wasn't a bum, really but a misguided, yet benign, smart ass, who never changes clothes, smokes an ounce and a half of weed for breakfast, believes in the resurrecting power of romantic love, and who's only talent other than rolling joints is playing amplified guitar in either sound proofed environments or loosely organized public events where proper security, ample warning, refreshments and an escape route are provided and assured in writing. Heck I think we'd all be blue if we gave the best year's of our lives to some British midget who needs his dear old mum. Does this woman have bad luck or bad taste in men? No WOHAM no cry, Ted " Neville Thumbcatch worked daily at the mill and on weekends his allotment by the hill. He sank his soul into mother nature's bough, growing some radishes and the occasional flower. Poor Mrs. Thumbcatch waited back at home her only comfort was an alabaster gnome. She decided to leave when she was able. She took the dog the cat and the budgie she called Mable. At last her future was now free from doubt. With George the Milkman she'll have kids not brussell sprouts. The best things in life are free, so just forget the cost, enjoy your pride and you won't miss just what you lost. Neville Thumbcatch you." - -----Original Message----- From: owner-joni@jmdl.com [mailto:owner-joni@jmdl.com] On Behalf Of Kate Bennett Sent: Monday, April 07, 2003 11:15 PM To: joni@smoe.org Subject: RE: blue >I don't understand why there is always this choice between staying with a guy and following her muse.< i don't think the above is an always thing...obviously that is the way joni saw it...we have heard her say in other interviews that she felt that graham wanted a stay at home wife & kids etc which was not the path she was on...for a many woman, having & raising children is definately a choice that can take you away from a career & creative output or at least slow it down or put it on hold... ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 08 Apr 2003 13:43:56 -0400 From: "Lavieri, Vince [185776]" Subject: Re: Down to you Bob said: "And I'm glad she and/or Vince decided against a re-arrangement for T'log. The C&S version cannot be improved upon imo, although I do enjoy the few covers of Down To You that existt." Well actually Joni really wanted to do it but I put my foot down and said no way for exactly that reason. Vince ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 14:14:22 EDT From: Murphycopy@aol.com Subject: Re: Joni/Judy, meaning of Cohen In a message dated 4/8/03 9:59:35 AM, rnsc@shaw.ca writes: << The name Cohen translates as "priest" in Hebrew. >> Are you sure about that? I always thought it meant "king" or "descended from kings." --Bob ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 11:45:14 -0700 From: Steve Dulson Subject: Blue Andrea wrote: >I had always thought that Blue was written with James Taylor in mind, but >after watching the program thr other night, and reading so many posts, it >seems it must have been for Graham Nash I love it when this comes up, every year or so, because it gives me the opportunity to say once again that the song "Blue" came out of Joni's relationship with singer David Blue. The rest of the album... I'd guess Graham. - -- ######################################################## Steve Dulson Costa Mesa CA steve@psitech.com "The Tinker's Own" http://www.tinkersown.com "The Living Tradition Concert Series" http://www.thelivingtradition.org/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 15:32:59 -0400 (EDT) From: "walterphil" Subject: catchin up with the list death in the family such a drag. nice to come back to several joni digests taped the pbs special but ain't watched it yet wanted to comment on several things tho first of all, joni's peere to me thet are bob dylan neil young van morrison laura nyro and (What a realizatio- someone mentioned stevie wonder! of course!!!) all these atrists wrote all of their own fantastic material, and grew by leaps and bounds, releasing classic lps often 3 and 4 in a row (ok so laura's a little shy of that last feat but she is my absolute fave) that's truly all i would consider secondly-i an't buyin that blue is anywhere near as sophisticated or even HALF as complex as for the roses. shall we compare "cold blue steel" with, say, "my old man"? how bout "song for ludwig" with "last time i saw richard?" even a song as deceptively simple as "barrandgrill" amazes when one begins to dissect it. not to mention the ocvious layering of many new types of textures and insrumentation come now lastly, i miss laura more than any other dead artist. her story is so sad because she was filled with such peace, joy, beauty and just in general good vibes. xxx walt The most personalized portal on the Web! ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 12:33:19 -0700 (PDT) From: magsnbrei Subject: Re: FW: blue Ted, okay....be mad at Joni for marrying Chuck. Or take a step back and look, rather listen to *her*, without placing any bias of what *you* would do in this scenario, just for a moment. Listen to Joan speak. She discloses her reasons very clearly as to WHY she married Chuck. That was then, this is now. The times were very different then. She felt an excruciating amount of pressure. She was alone, and penniless. She felt she couldnt even tell her own mother for fear of repercussions..and that fear was very real, and enough to send Joni underground with her own truths. In the heat of the moment, Joni saw a marriage to Chuck as a way to *keep* her daughter . Not an original idea, this notion was supported by the fact in the eyes of the church, parents, community, it was far better to be married . Do the right and honourable thing. Perhaps it is difficult to understand the consequences if one only looks through the lens of the present day or from your own experiences. Within the walls of that time in Joni's life, there was zero support for women in this situation and it was more often than not, women who got hung with ALL the consequences, responsibility, decisions and aftermath of a life sentence of emotional pain thereafter. Do we have the term unwed Dad in our vocabulary?? I rest my case. And if you think that the emotional pain magically goes away with reunion of a mother and child, guess again. Back in the 60's when Joni became pregnant, it was SHAMEFUL to be an unwed mother. .. it was one of the worst things that could happen to a young woman. (wot, she had SEX??? and she wasnt married...) something which I find rather perplexing.. errr wasnt there a male involved??? anyway...I have the utmost respect and admiration for Joni because she did what she needed to do. And most of all, I admire her for having the courage to be so open about this experience, despite that fact that she's also opened herself up to all the judgement she has received as a result. Now that's chutzpah. Mags You open my heart, you do. Yes you do. - JM Yahoo! Tax Center - File online, calculators, forms, and more ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 15:02:25 -0500 From: "mack watson-bush" Subject: Re: Kids Liking Joni Wow Emily, are you in for a treat and a mind altering experience when you listen to and digest Court and Spark. Just my take but I wouldn't buy Mingus next. Try FTR or Blue, or even DED. hehehe, couldn't resist. Enjoy. mack ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 14:58:54 -0700 From: "theodore" Subject: RE: FW: blue Those were different times. All I'm saying is I've been in love with someone who the entire time was hedging their bets. Lesson learned. You know I was not in the woman's shoes. A girl that looked like Joni did back then could have married anyone. I just think she used Chuck to get her past a period where she needed to gather her courage to go it alone. I don't think she ever wanted to raise the kid anyway. Its ok I don't hold it against her. She wanted to make love to the MacMath dude, she didn't want the pregnancy. Its not like she dumped it in a trash barrel or left on the neighbor's porch in a basket, she placed it in a loving home, the woman that adopted that baby was blessed. Joni made some cash in the sixties, she could have looked for the kid a lot of times. It was a shame to live with someone without being married, it was a shame to be a pot smoking guitar playing long haired hippie lady snake dancing through laurel canyon with a bunch of free loving, poetry reading, radicals. I don't think she should feel badly at all about her choices in life. She did what worked for her and tried to keep her love alive. That said I think she attaches herself to men to fill a need. To nurture a creative project like with Chuck and that Klein guy. Yeah she'll write a tune for you and stay friends, but, after she gets what she needs she's off. She even says so herself when talking about Picasso marking his different periods with a new woman. Fine. I don't call Pablo an asshole, but, I stays away from Joni types. I can see em coming a mile away. A woman that likes to be one of the guys, play in the band, but, always ends up fucking one of them and than hangs around trying to convince herself that its not just sex. When the guy naturally wants to feel like I think most guys like to feel, that maybe we can raise up a family together, build a future, have the world treat us like a pair, a unit, man and woman etc. Joni is already gone, like she told little Graham, the tighter you hold sand the faster it runs through your fingers. Personally I steer way clear of these situations, I won't fuck until after I see that ring. Something I know about myself I like to be in love and I like to be fiercely loyal, unselfish and adoring. I like to put people on a pedestal and act like a silly little kid all the time, I'm hopeless. So its all or nothing for me. I don't need no sand lady to waste all my time . I like the big smooshy solid feeling lady that's built for a little grabbing and holding. I like the sand inside that hourglass where it belongs. No Woham No Cry, ted - -----Original Message----- From: magsnbrei [mailto:magsnbrei@yahoo.com] Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2003 12:33 PM To: theodore; joni@smoe.org Subject: Re: FW: blue Ted, okay....be mad at Joni for marrying Chuck. Or take a step back and look, rather listen to *her*, without placing any bias of what *you* would do in this scenario, just for a moment. Listen to Joan speak. She discloses her reasons very clearly as to WHY she married Chuck. That was then, this is now. The times were very different then. She felt an excruciating amount of pressure. She was alone, and penniless. She felt she couldnt even tell her own mother for fear of repercussions..and that fear was very real, and enough to send Joni underground with her own truths. In the heat of the moment, Joni saw a marriage to Chuck as a way to *keep* her daughter . Not an original idea, this notion was supported by the fact in the eyes of the church, parents, community, it was far better to be married . Do the right and honourable thing. Perhaps it is difficult to understand the consequences if one only looks through the lens of the present day or from your own experiences. Within the walls of that time in Joni's life, there was zero support for women in this situation and it was more often than not, women who got hung with ALL the consequences, responsibility, decisions and aftermath of a life sentence of emotional pain thereafter. Do we have the term unwed Dad in our vocabulary?? I rest my case. And if you think that the emotional pain magically goes away with reunion of a mother and child, guess again. Back in the 60's when Joni became pregnant, it was SHAMEFUL to be an unwed mother. .. it was one of the worst things that could happen to a young woman. (wot, she had SEX??? and she wasnt married...) something which I find rather perplexing.. errr wasnt there a male involved??? anyway...I have the utmost respect and admiration for Joni because she did what she needed to do. And most of all, I admire her for having the courage to be so open about this experience, despite that fact that she's also opened herself up to all the judgement she has received as a result. Now that's chutzpah. Mags You open my heart, you do. Yes you do. - - JM _____ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - File online, calculators, forms, and more ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 19:05:30 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: Musings on the Muse --- emil thompson wrote: > >I don't understand why there is always this choice > between staying with > a guy and following her muse.< > > It's a good thing for us that Joni's had such a > turbulent love life, > cause that's what fuels about 90% of all great > art..(that and > suffering in general) ...just a thought. > Emil, I think you're right. Sad but true. If she had married Graham, she could have ended up baking cookies or being a soccer mum. Although i have to wonder - why, having found someone as extraordinary as Joni, so beautiful, so talented, would he have wanted her to be a stay-at-home wife? I wonder if that's what he wanted, or if it was just Joni who didn't want to get into that kind of thing, after having gone through the unwed mother thing and giving up a child? Now, where's my hair shirt? I feel like ... creatin' something! ===== Catherine Toronto ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 21:12:55 -0400 From: Subject: Joni & Graham About the breakup of Joni & Graham, someone already noted that he wanted a stay-at-home wife and family, which he got with Sue. Joni wanted the freedom to.... uh.... collaborate with new musical partners. Which she got. It reminds me of a song written by a Long Island, New York resident, (now departed) named Harry Chapin: "We both found what we were lookin' for, such a long, long time ago. Ya see, she was gonna be an actress, and I was gonna learn to fly. She took off to find the footlights, and I took off for the sky." [Taxi] Lama ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 08 Apr 2003 21:40:26 -0700 From: Gary Zack Subject: Re: JMDL Digest V2003 #224 Thank you so much for the gentle reminder. I miss Laura terribly. There is a new CD called "Live In Japan" which is available as an import for all fans of Laura out there. I wish I knew of a photo of Joni and Laura together that existed. That would be priceless. Best regards, Gary Zack np: In The Country Way - Laura Nyro JSerkes@aol.com wrote: >This is the 5th anniversery of Laura Nyro's passage. A brilliant writer, >singer....muse. Even Joni had kudos for her. That says alot. Love you >Laura...Play ELI today. > >Nyrogrl ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 21:43:20 EDT From: PassScribe@aol.com Subject: Re: Our kids getting hooked on Joni In a message dated 4/8/03 8:06:01 AM, AsharaJM writes: << I love the thought of this. You mean there *may* be hope yet for my 4 sons?? :-) Hugs, Ashara >> Yeah; you know, people's tastes change and then you never know when someone will discover something they've overlooked for a long time. Kenny B ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 21:44:03 EDT From: PassScribe@aol.com Subject: Re: Our kids getting hooked on Joni In a message dated 4/8/03 8:13:11 AM, cactustreemotel@hotmail.com writes: << My boys recognized Joni, but they would perfer not to hear her. If it isn't Dashboard or Bright Eyes or that skater punk folk as I call it then about the only they listen to with me is James Taylor and Van Morrison. Peace, Craig At least they're involved with some OTHER artists with the ability to produce thought-provoking (as opposed to mind-numbing) lyrics. Kenny B ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 21:59:21 EDT From: PassScribe@aol.com Subject: Re:Hooked on Joni & JoniFest In a message dated 4/8/03 8:40:02 AM, lori@lrfye.lunarpages.com writes: I gained a LOT of my appreciation for lyrics and music from my 8th grade English teacher (Mr. Sikorski, where are you?), who regularly brought mimeographed (remember that smell?) copies of lyrics -- particularly those by Lennon & McCartney, and Simon & Garfunkel -- to class. Perhaps your son will pass on Joni's lyrics to his students, Kenny! One can hope! And wouldn't that be great?? Lori Hi, Lori Actually, my son often does the same thing; he brings song lyrics into class to help illustrate something he's teaching. I've received numerous calls from him at times, asking me "what song was it where they sing/say this thing or that?" I've had to dig through my record collections on many occassions trying to find the album some song he's thinking of is on so he can copy the lyrics or see if it applies to the lesson he wants to do on a given day. Even more amazing: he's begun playing VINYL !! For the longest time, he was only playing CD's; about a year ago, he dug out his old turntable & has been frequenting the used record stores (like I love to do... taught HIM well!) and he often calls to tell me what he's found. I guess he realizes how much good stuff you can find & save money at the same time. Oddly enough, after his heavy metal phase, he got into country for a while and then began buying more singer-songwriter material in recent years. Man... talk about your changes in TASTE ! He borrowed one of my Crosby, Stills & Nash albums a year ago and gave it back recently 'cause he found his own copy at a used record store for a buck. He recently attended a heavy-metal concert (Ratt reunion, I think?) and then a week later (or earlier) was at a Emmy Lou Harris show or something like that. How's that for diversity? P.S. - Glorianna and Kenny, you are both going to JoniFest, yes?? www.jonifest.com The JoniFest is being held the weekend of my granddaughter's 6th birthday (which requires us to drive back & forth to CT from Long Island.) We usually go up one day & stay over to not have to do that trip all in one day. I've thought about stopping into the JoniFest for maybe one day (before or after we go to CT) but I don't know if I'll have the time... I'm working a new job & may not be able to take the extra time off I'd need. Believe me, after "finding" all you fine folks on this site, I'd really LOVE to go & meet some of you but.... we'll see as the weekend gets closer. Kenny B ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 19:09:02 -0700 From: "theodore" Subject: RE: Hooked on Joni & JoniFest I used to listen to The Doors a great deal when I was 13, 14, 15. An English teacher played Dylan's Hard Rain's Gonna Fall and made us write an in class essay on it. The Doors introduced me to Blake's poetry, and also the philosophy and fiction of Aldous Huxley. Ted aka Napoleon in rags. All your seasick sailors they are rowing home Your empty handed army is all going home The empty handed painter from your streets Is drawing crazy patterns on your sheets Look out now the saints are falling through And its all over now Baby blue - -----Original Message----- From: owner-joni@jmdl.com [mailto:owner-joni@jmdl.com] On Behalf Of PassScribe@aol.com Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2003 6:59 PM To: lori@lrfye.lunarpages.com; gglimmer@altelco.net; joni@smoe.org Subject: Re:Hooked on Joni & JoniFest In a message dated 4/8/03 8:40:02 AM, lori@lrfye.lunarpages.com writes: I gained a LOT of my appreciation for lyrics and music from my 8th grade English teacher (Mr. Sikorski, where are you?), who regularly brought mimeographed (remember that smell?) copies of lyrics -- particularly those by Lennon & McCartney, and Simon & Garfunkel -- to class. Perhaps your son will pass on Joni's lyrics to his students, Kenny! One can hope! And wouldn't that be great?? Lori Hi, Lori Actually, my son often does the same thing; he brings song lyrics into class to help illustrate something he's teaching. I've received numerous calls from him at times, asking me "what song was it where they sing/say this thing or that?" I've had to dig through my record collections on many occassions trying to find the album some song he's thinking of is on so he can copy the lyrics or see if it applies to the lesson he wants to do on a given day. Even more amazing: he's begun playing VINYL !! For the longest time, he was only playing CD's; about a year ago, he dug out his old turntable & has been frequenting the used record stores (like I love to do... taught HIM well!) and he often calls to tell me what he's found. I guess he realizes how much good stuff you can find & save money at the same time. Oddly enough, after his heavy metal phase, he got into country for a while and then began buying more singer-songwriter material in recent years. Man... talk about your changes in TASTE ! He borrowed one of my Crosby, Stills & Nash albums a year ago and gave it back recently 'cause he found his own copy at a used record store for a buck. He recently attended a heavy-metal concert (Ratt reunion, I think?) and then a week later (or earlier) was at a Emmy Lou Harris show or something like that. How's that for diversity? P.S. - Glorianna and Kenny, you are both going to JoniFest, yes?? www.jonifest.com The JoniFest is being held the weekend of my granddaughter's 6th birthday (which requires us to drive back & forth to CT from Long Island.) We usually go up one day & stay over to not have to do that trip all in one day. I've thought about stopping into the JoniFest for maybe one day (before or after we go to CT) but I don't know if I'll have the time... I'm working a new job & may not be able to take the extra time off I'd need. Believe me, after "finding" all you fine folks on this site, I'd really LOVE to go & meet some of you but.... we'll see as the weekend gets closer. Kenny B ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 22:24:20 -0400 From: Subject: True, so true... It was fate that she wouldn't end up with McMath. She said herself "When it comes to mathematics, I've got static in the attic." Lama Sorry, but someone had to say it. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 19:44:00 -0700 (PDT) From: Susan Guzzi Subject: Re: Our kids getting hooked on Joni As an auntie, I work udercover with my niece and nephew. Although my brother is doing his part filtering the Beatles through their little heads - I of course am working Joni into their lives. I had hoped my niece, Angela - 7, would be the next Joni, but it appears I will have to settle for Michael - 5 being the next Lennon or JT. He can not stop himself from singing the Beatles day and night. When I am there we sing "The Circle Game" together and he begs me to sing that song about Michael and the mountains. Ahh so what if my brother picked the atheist to be godmother - I AM doing God's work here! Get'em while they're young. As my Michael says waving his hands in the air .... Give Peace A Chance Susan NP: Joan Armatrading/Willow - --- PassScribe@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 4/8/03 8:06:01 AM, AsharaJM writes: > > << I love the thought of this. You mean there *may* be hope yet for my 4 > sons?? :-) > > Hugs, > Ashara >> > > Yeah; you know, people's tastes change and then you never know when > someone will discover something they've overlooked for a long time. > > Kenny B Yahoo! Tax Center - File online, calculators, forms, and more http://tax.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 08 Apr 2003 20:03:09 -0700 From: "Lori Fye" Subject: RE: UN Reports Congo Killing Spree, etc. > I wish all pinko commie faggots ... Suzanne, have you been listening to George Carlin's "FM & AM" again? I haven't heard that phrase in the longest time! > ... would spend the rest of their lives in real humanitarian work in > the midst of those hell hole macho paradises and when their assholes > get sore from dysentery or bending over too much not only will they > beg to come home to this great country but they may go straight and > learn what life really is all about As a lesbian and 10+ year veteran of the United States Air Force, and as the sister of a gay man who was a veteran of the United States Navy and who died of AIDS in 1995, I take MAJOR offense at your remarks, Suzanne. The queers in my family did our patriotic duty and served our country proudly -- can you say the same thing? If not, please stop flapping that red, white and blue scrim AND your virtual gums. Lori ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 08 Apr 2003 20:08:51 -0700 From: "Lori Fye" Subject: Apology I rarely forget the NJC tag. Only-Joni folks, please forgive my error. I'm angry. Lori ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 23:51:17 -0400 From: "Christopher Treacy" Subject: Re: UN Reports Congo Killing Spree, etc. Yes. Suzanne, why the big messy, nasty, stinky poop-juice all over us, hmmm??? What's that all about? Who said it was perfectly okay for you to come and dump your poop-juice here on the JMdl? Messy, stinky, nasty, opinionated, outspoken, mindless, stinky messy....... - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lori Fye" To: "theodore" ; "'Suzanne MarcAurele'" ; Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2003 11:03 PM Subject: RE: UN Reports Congo Killing Spree, etc. > > I wish all pinko commie faggots ... > > Suzanne, have you been listening to George Carlin's "FM & AM" again? I > haven't heard that phrase in the longest time! > > > ... would spend the rest of their lives in real humanitarian work in > > the midst of those hell hole macho paradises and when their assholes > > get sore from dysentery or bending over too much not only will they > > beg to come home to this great country but they may go straight and > > learn what life really is all about > > As a lesbian and 10+ year veteran of the United States Air Force, and > as the sister of a gay man who was a veteran of the United States Navy > and who died of AIDS in 1995, I take MAJOR offense at your remarks, > Suzanne. The queers in my family did our patriotic duty and served our > country proudly -- can you say the same thing? > > If not, please stop flapping that red, white and blue scrim AND your > virtual gums. > > Lori ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 09 Apr 2003 02:03:46 -0400 From: ljirvin@jmdl.com Subject: Today's Library Links: April 9 On April 9 the following items were published: 1997: "Long-lost daughter sings Mitchell's praises" - Toronto Sun (Reunion Story) http://www.jmdl.com/articles/view.cfm?id=85 2000: "Elton John, James Taylor Pay Tribute To Joni Mitchell" - SonicNet website (Review - Concert) http://www.jmdl.com/articles/view.cfm?id=494 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 23:16:31 -0700 From: David Marine Subject: Re: JMDL Digest V2003 #225 Hey Randy: Ginsberg's limited writings on NAMBLA focus on free speech. He was never accused of -- nor indicted for -- having sex with a minor. He was a seminal poet and essayist, and one of the most important poets, writers, and thinkers of his time. I doubt Dylan or Joni would exist without him and Kerouac. Best, David On Tuesday, April 8, 2003, at 06:45 PM, JMDL Digest wrote: > Kate Bennett wrote: > >> from the website: >> >> "Kerouac, Ginsberg and Burroughs found inspiration in jazz music and >> the >> culture that surrounded it. > > Not without their dark side-Burroughs was a devoted junkie who > shot his wife in the head. Ginsberg was an advocate for sex with > children. > They're not my heroes. ------------------------------ End of onlyJMDL Digest V2003 #123 ********************************* ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she? (http://www.siquomb.com/siquomb.cfm)