From: les@jmdl.com (onlyJMDL Digest) To: onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Subject: onlyJMDL Digest V2003 #91 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/onlyjoni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com Unsubscribe: mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe onlyJMDL Digest Saturday, March 15 2003 Volume 2003 : Number 091 Sign up now for JoniFest 2003! http://www.jonifest.com ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Laurel Canyon: the movie [JRMCo1@aol.com] Re: DJRD "channel 5" ["Mick Mick" ] Re: DJRD "channel 5" [Catherine McKay ] Re: Today in History: March 15 [Catherine McKay ] Re: onlyJMDL Digest V2003 #90 [ROSCOE1TC@aol.com] Re: onlyJMDL Digest V2003 #90 "Talk to me" [Catherine McKay ] re: taping Joni, Vienna Teng ["michael o'malley" ] DED ... [Don Rowe ] The Fiddle and The Drum ["Kate Bennett" ] Re: DED ... [Catherine McKay ] Re: DED ... ["Mark or Travis" ] talk to me and the tuning thing ["Wally Kairuz" ] Chinese Cafe [colin ] Re: "Talk to me" [dsk ] Re: "talk to me" [dsk ] Re: "Talk to me" [Catherine McKay ] Re: talk to me and the tuning thing [Catherine McKay ] Re: DED ... [Don Rowe ] Re: "HDCD"'s versus original issue CD's; what is the REALdifference? ["La] Re: "Talk to me" [colin ] Re: Chinese Cafe [Mags N Brei ] Joni mention in G&M ["michael o'malley" ] Dark Cafe Days/Chicago Style [Susan Guzzi ] RE: Was "Talk to me"; now, JERKS!! (NCJ) ["Mary E. Pitassi" ] Re: Dark Cafe Days/Chicago Style [Catherine McKay ] Re: Joni mention in G&M [Catherine McKay ] Re: Was "Talk to me"; now, JERKS!! (NCJ) [colin ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2003 06:12:47 EST From: JRMCo1@aol.com Subject: Laurel Canyon: the movie I thought I'd read a jmdler review of this by now...I'm looking forward to seeing it. Should I be? Anyone...? - -Julius From today's San Francisco Chronicle: When Frances McDormand called Lisa Cholodenko out of the blue and said she wanted to play the lead character of Jane in "Laurel Canyon," the writer/director wasn't sure the actress was right for the part. "She got ahold of the script. I don't remember how she got it, but her agent or manager got it to her," Cholodenko recalls. "I thought it was an interesting idea, but I didn't realize that she looked the way she does now." Imagining the Coen brothers' sometime leading lady still looking like Marge Gunderson, the pregnant Midwestern cop in "Fargo," or the overprotective mom in Cameron Crowe's "Almost Famous," the San Fernando Valley native was unprepared for how perfect McDormand would turn out to be. "She came into this restaurant in New York looking like she does and being like she is in the movie, and it seemed almost like I had written [the part] for her," the filmmaker says. And what a fantastic part it is -- a mythical ex-hippie female music producer inspired by Joni Mitchell. The idea came to Cholodenko when her editor brought Mitchell's 1970 Ladies of the Canyon album to work while they were editing Cholodenko's first feature, 1998's "High Art." "We were just riffing about Laurel Canyon and the music scene about the time that Joni Mitchell lived there," she says. "And I said, 'Wouldn't it be interesting to write a film that had a female protagonist that was kind of in that mode and was somehow part of that music scene, but wasn't herself a musician like Joni Mitchell?" That thought stuck with 38-year-old Cholodenko when she started writing her next script. "She was the first character I started writing, and I knew I wanted to set a film up in Laurel Canyon. When I think of the history of Laurel Canyon, it's really about the music scene that was there in the late '60s and '70s. It's still there, but there was a certain period [around that time] where it got put on the map." ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2003 12:02:46 +0000 From: "Mick Mick" Subject: Re: DJRD "channel 5" CBC it could well be but I'd always associated the "ghosts" as the film of Woodstock _________________________________________________________________ MSN Messenger - fast, easy and FREE! http://messenger.msn.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2003 08:22:40 -0500 (EST) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: DJRD "channel 5" --- frasere@intergate.ca wrote: > Andrew, > > Where I grew up in Burlington Ontario, CBC was > ALWAYS channel 5- just like in > the States, ABC seems to be channel 7 in sooo many > cities. Think you are right! Probably true. It's channel 5 (but cable 6!!) in Toronto. And in my little town of Pembroke, Ontario, where I mostly grew up from age 2 to 12, our local TV station (not CBC, but a CBC affiliate) was also channel 5 - CHOV, the voice of the Ottawa Valley, and the only game in town back in those days when the signals from other towns and cities didn't reach us across the hills and valleys. ===== Catherine Toronto ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2003 08:23:21 -0500 (EST) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: Today in History: March 15 --- ljirvin@jmdl.com wrote: > > 1995: Reprise released "Sunny Sunday" as a single. They did? Where? ===== Catherine Toronto ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2003 09:10:06 EST From: ROSCOE1TC@aol.com Subject: Re: onlyJMDL Digest V2003 #90 i still don't know how to respond to the discussion list....so, i have no idea who will receive this. :-) i didn't even read the whole list. i just read several people's negative feelings about "talk to me." lyrically, it doesn't rank with her finest work, but musically, it thrills my soul. i make lots and lots of compilation tapes for my less musically obsessed friends, and "talk to me" is always one of the several joni mitchell songs that i include. as a guitar player, i find her guitar work on that song to be utterly amazing. her sense of rhythm is incredible. it's almost dangerous for me to drive when that song is blasting in the car. so, perhaps people could overlook the attempt at humor or the self-deprecating lyrics and just get into the rhythmic experimentation that is so apparent on the song. just a suggestion. :-) NO ONE plays guitar like joni. NO ONE. it's just one of the reasons that joni RULES. terry ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2003 09:57:26 -0500 (EST) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: onlyJMDL Digest V2003 #90 "Talk to me" --- ROSCOE1TC@aol.com wrote: > i still don't know how to respond to the discussion > list....so, i have no > idea who will receive this. :-) i didn't even read > the whole list. i just > read several people's negative feelings about "talk > to me." lyrically, it > doesn't rank with her finest work, but musically, it > thrills my soul. You must have done it right, Roscoe. :) I've been reading the posts about "Talk to me" and, as usual, I can see both sides (now and then.) Debra Shea doesn't like it because she thinks Joni is kowtowing and that the person Joni is talking to doesn't deserve her. I hope I read that right. And I agree. And yet... this sounds like a woman newly in love who wants to know everything about this man - and he's just not giving. She's breathless and giddy like a schoolgirl. She knows she's making a fool of herself, opening up and talking about everything all at once. But isn't that what new love can be like? It's that risk, that willingness to make an ass of yourself for the object of your affections, and hoping he does the same. Even the way she sings this song sounds like she's so eager to get it all out there that she trips over her own tongue and loses her breath in the telling. She's mad for this guy. She's foolish enough to squawk like a chicken (yeah, I hate this part too, but so what) Now if that's not making a fool of yourself for love, I don't know what is. After it's all over, that's when you sit back and say, "Jeez, I wish I hadn't said that - I wish I hadn't done that - the bastard wasn't worth it". But then, don't you just go and do it again? How human. I love this song, but I totally get why some people don't. Duality strikes again, dammit. ===== Catherine Toronto ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2003 10:17:42 -0500 (EST) From: Catherine McKay Subject: DJRD - "ghosts of my old idea(l)s" I've been thinking over the line(s) "last night the ghosts of my old idea(l)s reran on Channel 5" (first of all - is it ghosts of my old *ideas*, or *ideals*? I always thought it was "ideals" but on the lyrics page of www.jmdl.com, it's "ideas." I suppose it could be either, esp. where Joan is concerned. If Channel 5 is an oblique reference to CBC TV which was likely the only game in town for young Joni in Sask, it's clever. I always thought this was a reference to a dream though, rather than some rerun on a real TV. She has these images running and flickeringthrough her mind. When I think of this, I see these images in black and white - that's how these ghosts present themselves to me when I think of these words. If it's a recurring (or reoccuring!) dream, then it's one that probably shows up from time to time according to the emotional state of the dreamer (this dream comes in on Channel 5 where the more prosaic stuff probalby shows up on Channel 10, community access TV). Think about channelling - couldn't this also be a reference to mediums (media?) channelling particular spirits (like Ethel Merman, for example - Hi, Smurph). The dreamstate is the medium by which the old ideas/ideals are channelled through to the consciousness to become a song or a piece of art or whatever. TV is a medium; Joni is a medium. Channel 5 is an old idea dredged up possibly subconsciously from Joni's youth in a day when TV was new but moving rapidly into the fore of modern media, changing all of our lives and society as it did; Joni is channelling images of eagles and snakes; of planes and trains; of clarity and blind desire. This song is so full of rich imagery and duality that a thesis could be written on it alone, IMO, but you'd need to be channelling to do it. NP: Alison Moyet "Invisible" ===== Catherine Toronto ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2003 10:28:40 EST From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Talk to us, Terry! ;~) In a message dated 3/15/2003 9:11:10 AM Eastern Standard Time, ROSCOE1TC@aol.com writes: > i still don't know how to respond to the discussion list....so, i have no > idea who will receive this. :-) We all did, Terry...so good job. I don't recall a previous post from you so let me throw a "welcome" your way. And I could definitely relate to your comments re: dangerous driving when a song like "Talk To Me" comes on. It's a lot of fun to sing, and for the most part not too tricky, except for the part that comes after her "Willy the Shake" line...very tough meter. I sang it last year at Jonifest and really had a lot of fun with it. Thanks to Marian's expert guitar work, I never got too off track. As for Debra's comments, I can certainly appreciate where she's coming from. I think thematically it has some comparisons to Jericho, in that Joni confesses some of her flaws..."I talk too loose, again I talk too open & free". I remember the first time I heard this track, she had me at "I pissed a tequila anaconda the full length of the parking lot"...one of those lines that is uniquely Joni. So Terry, now that you know how to write to us all, make a habit of it! :o) Bob NP: Jeanne French, "Mean Man Blues" ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2003 10:55:33 EST From: MINGSDANCE@aol.com Subject: Re. Miles of Isles query I don't know if this helps but during the "Both Sides Now" tour at the Mars Music Amphitheater Joni said "I bought a bra, and burned my guitar and was now just a Chirp with a band." It is her way of being apologetic to her fans for not being on some type of Instrument during the show. Peace, Mingus ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2003 15:57:57 +0000 From: "Mick Mick" Subject: Re: DJRD "channel 5" CBC could well be Channel 5 though I always associated the 'ghosts of my old ideals' with the film of Woodstock. _________________________________________________________________ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2003 11:13:11 -0500 From: "michael o'malley" Subject: re: taping Joni, Vienna Teng Well I'm reassured to see that it's not just Canadians who are having trouble with their old, defective VCR's ; - ) ! And thanks for the heads up on Vienna Teng - I'm going to look out for her CD. Michael in Quebec ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2003 08:27:32 -0800 (PST) From: Don Rowe Subject: DED ... Good to see everyone still kicking the DED around here. Those who remember me already know that I consider the much-maligned pooch one of Joni's finest efforts. There, I've said it again, and darnit all I'm still proud of it! Here's why I say this ... Joni's work with the then darling of the recording industry, the Fairlight CMI (computer musical instrument) is every bit as fresh, innovative and daring as any of her alternate guitar tunings, and the counterpoint lines she uses (or directed Dolby to use, same diff)as engaging as anything on HOSL or DJRD. Do yourselves a favor (all you DED nay-sayers) ... make a tape/CDR that alternates cuts from DJRD, DED and HOSL ... any selection or sequence will do ... and drive around with it for a week. It will change your life, and get you well on the road to right-thinking about Joni's work from the over-abused 80s. :-D Don Rowe (sitting in for Larry Klein) ===== Visit me anytime at http://www.mp3.com/donrowe Yahoo! Web Hosting - establish your business online http://webhosting.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2003 09:30:15 -0800 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: The Fiddle and The Drum And so once again my dear Johnny my dear friend And so once again you are fightin' us all And when I ask you why you raise your sticks and cry, and I fall Oh, my friend How did you come to trade the fiddle for the drum You say I have turned like the enemies you've earned But I can remember all the good things you are And so I ask you please can I help you find the peace and the star Oh, my friend What time is this to trade the handshake for the fist And so once again oh, America my friend And so once again you are fighting us all And when we ask you why You raise your sticks and cry and we fall Oh, my friend How did you come to trade the fiddle for the drum You say we have turned Like the enemies you've earned But we can remember all the good things you are And so we ask you please can we help you find the peace and the star Oh my friend We have all come to fear the beating of your drum ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2003 13:23:10 -0500 (EST) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: DED ... --- Don Rowe wrote: > Good to see everyone still kicking the DED around > here. Those who remember me already know that I > consider the much-maligned pooch one of Joni's > finest > efforts. There, I've said it again, and darnit all > I'm still proud of it! Hey, it's DED-Dawg Rowe, defender of the Dog and all things Larry - long time, no hear from. Now we all know, if we ever want to call you out of lurkdom, all we need to do is insult the Dog. ===== Catherine Toronto ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2003 10:42:06 -0800 From: "Mark or Travis" Subject: Re: DED ... > Here's why I say this ... Joni's work with the then > darling of the recording industry, the Fairlight CMI > (computer musical instrument) is every bit as fresh, > innovative and daring as any of her alternate guitar > tunings, and the counterpoint lines she uses (or > directed Dolby to use, same diff)as engaging as > anything on HOSL or DJRD. Good to see you back, Don/Larry! And thank you for saying what I've been thinking during the past few days of DED bashing. The only thing I would add is that I've always felt that the production of DED suits the material. The title alone indicates that this isn't your typical Joni Mitchell album. Although the CBC program completely skipped everything from WTRF to Turbulent Indigo, Joni made some comment about looking outward at the state of the world which was not a popular thing to do. The film had 'Sex Kills' playing at that point but I think Joni was probably referring to DED and whatever further information there was about that period of her music was edited out and the voice over was used in the part about Turbulent Indigo. Except for 'Good Friends', 'Impossible Dreamer', 'Ethiopia' and 'Lucky Girl', this record isn't meant to sound pretty. The sound reflects tension and anxiety. There is an underlying sense in the music that our society and culture are being driven by some vast machinery controlled by powerful but covert forces. Listen to the lines 'oh and deep in the night/appetites find us/release us and blind us' from 'The Three Great Stimulants'. I get an image of chained slaves being driven in some deep, dark place to do repititive, mind and body-numbing work that keeps the machinery going. 'Dog Eat Dog' isn't 'Song to A Seagull'. It isn't 'Blue' or 'Court and Spark' or 'Hejira'. This isn't a record about Joni's love life or her ongoing quest for self-knowledge. DED is a record about greed, exploitation, apathy, the perversion of spiritual values, wanton disregard of damage to our planet, corruption, decadence, herd mentatlity, poverty of both body & spirit. Why should it sound pretty? And I agree with Don. I have never thought that this record sounds like anything else that came out of the 80s. As with every other album, Joni's sound is distinctive, original and very much her own. Before I get off the soap box I would like to make one more point. DED was an essential step in Joni's artistic development. If you listen to 'Chalk Mark in a Rain Storm', the sythesizers are still in the forefront but the record is more melodic and focused on the personal than DED. When she made 'Night Ride Home' she had come to a point where she was using the synths as shading or to accent certain points of the songs. Listen to how she uses them in 'Passion Play' or the way they once again create a tense, frightening sound in 'Slouching Toward Bethlehem'. Brilliant and wonderful. And if she hadn't started learning how to use this instrument back in the 80s, she might never have gotten to the point where she could use it so beautifully on NRH and Turbulent Indigo. Joni is more than capable or creating valid, interesting work without have to use a guitar or a piano. Her talent is much broader than that. Mark E in Seattle - --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.459 / Virus Database: 258 - Release Date: 2/26/2003 ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2003 15:48:07 -0300 From: "Wally Kairuz" Subject: talk to me and the tuning thing well, i for one received your post so welcome and i so totally agree on talk to me. it is one of my favorite songs on earth. the guitar is superb. the first time i heard it in the 70's i thought that no one could squeeze so much music out of a simple guitar. i was very much a piano person before joni but we didn't have a piano at home so i had to *content* myself with my older brother's guitar. to me guitar accompaniments meant pretty much just strumming your way through three chords and getting away with it. when i heard joni's "guitar management techniques" i discovered that you had an orchestra at your beck and call if you learned how to use the alternate tunings. i devoted years -- literally -- to studying her tunings until i *discovered* (i'm in quotation mark mode today) the G tuning. i wrote more than a 100 songs in that tuning alone!!! by the time i heard talk to me, i had stuck to the G tuning for so long (way back from the days of the circle game so you do the figures) that i had missed the point of the alternate tunings: i again needed rubber fingers or REAL musical knowledge to get something new or fresh sounding out of the same tired tuning. and then comes joni with all her guitar slapping and sliding and basically very few chords to build her crazy funny funny funny monologue upon. the lyrics were ME!!!! if you know me you know i talk too open and free and i always pay a high price. and i always feel miserable in the presence of a mister mystery. joni rules all right. wally ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2003 19:15:46 +0000 From: colin Subject: Re: onlyJMDL Digest V2003 #90 I love Talk To Me. It is engergetic and funny.I even had apart of it on my answering amchine! welcome Terry. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2003 19:19:07 +0000 From: colin Subject: Chinese Cafe probably this has been discussed before but I only juts thought about it; I have always thought the song mixed with Unchained Melody(a beautiful song) was odd. Today I was listening to it on Travelogue. It suddenly occurred to me that she is singing the words of Unchained Melody to her daughter. I hunger for your touch-i pray god brings your love to me(or something like that). It makes sense to me anyway. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2003 14:59:43 -0500 From: dsk Subject: Re: "Talk to me" Catherine McKay wrote: > > I've been reading the posts about "Talk to me" and, as > usual, I can see both sides (now and then.) Debra Shea > doesn't like it because she thinks Joni is kowtowing > and that the person Joni is talking to doesn't deserve > her. I hope I read that right. And I agree. Yes, that's exactly what I meant. > And yet... this sounds like a woman newly in love who > wants to know everything about this man - and he's > just not giving. I've learned, intellectually anyway, that when someone's not giving in the giddy beginning that person will not ever be giving. Or, he may be giving in HIS way, maybe he bought her a drink or whatever, but he's obviously not giving in the way Joni needs and is asking for. So she really is wasting her time. Strikes an emotional chord with me. And unlike other Joni songs, the message is not countered with anything else, which would make it more interesting and tolerable for me. It's just her begging. I hate that (yeah, I know, I'm repeating myself, but really I hate that) and, most likely, whoever she's making the request (demand?) of will hate it too. Move on Joni. There are more generous men out there. Joni's been wise in her choice of men, or at least the ones we know about, and I get the impression she moves on easily so this "talk to me" is unusual for her. > After it's all over, that's when you sit back and say, > "Jeez, I wish I hadn't said that - I wish I hadn't > done that - the bastard wasn't worth it". But then, > don't you just go and do it again? How human. A big YES to that, which, of course, is why the song annoys me so much. I've done that more times than I can count. I'm now consciously trying to be more comfortable with the generous men I'm meeting. Weird, huh? to have to make a conscious effort at what would be naturally enjoyable behavior for other people. I've tended to be interested in the men who aren't giving, for whatever reason. Some detrimental lessons are so ingrained it takes forever to even know they're there, and then to try to "relearn"... not easy. I never liked the song, but it wasn't until about ten years ago I realized I hated it and never wanted to hear it again, and started wondering why my reaction to it was so strong... not that I could instantly change my ways, but at least it was a start... Anyone else have a life-lesson experience from a Joni song? Debra Shea NPIMH: ... but, you know, life is for learning.... thanks, Joni. You're an excellent big sister. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2003 15:12:57 -0500 From: dsk Subject: Re: "talk to me" ROSCOE1TC@aol.com wrote: > > i still don't know how to respond to the discussion list....so, i have no > idea who will receive this. :-) All of us! So, whatever you did, do it again. > lyrically, it > doesn't rank with her finest work, but musically, it thrills my soul.... > as a guitar player, i find her guitar work on that song to be > utterly amazing. her sense of rhythm is incredible. it's almost dangerous > for me to drive when that song is blasting in the car. so, perhaps people > could overlook the attempt at humor or the self-deprecating lyrics and just > get into the rhythmic experimentation that is so apparent on the song. > just a suggestion. :-) That's an excellent one. With any song, I always pay attention to the lyrics first, and then the music. There have been interesting discussions here about that, with lots of people, musicians especially, getting hooked by the music first. It's interesting the different ways people take in information. > NO ONE plays guitar like joni. NO ONE. it's just > one of the reasons that joni RULES. I can't even recall what the guitar sounds like on that song! So, maybe, it's time to give it a try again and just pay attention to the sound. Maybe I'll even find out the song doesn't annoy me nearly as much as it did 10 years ago... Welcome Terry! Thanks for the suggestion. Getting other viewpoints is one of the unending pleasures of this list. Debra Shea ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2003 16:02:32 -0500 (EST) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: "Talk to me" --- dsk wrote: I'm now > consciously trying > to be more comfortable with the generous men I'm > meeting. Weird, huh? to > have to make a conscious effort at what would be > naturally enjoyable > behavior for other people. I've tended to be > interested in the men who > aren't giving, for whatever reason. Some detrimental > lessons are so > ingrained it takes forever to even know they're > there, and then to try > to "relearn"... not easy. I'm like that too. I hate it. I always pick bastards. What's my friggin' problem? (maybe it's not them - maybe it's me!) I'd become a nun but I'm not that religious and it would drive me nuts living with all those other people. > > Anyone else have a life-lesson experience from a > Joni song? This sounds like the beginning of a great thread - but where do I start? I learn something from just about all of them and then I go back & listen to them much later and learn something else again. ===== Catherine Toronto ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2003 16:03:40 -0500 (EST) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: talk to me and the tuning thing --- Wally Kairuz wrote: > i had to > *content* myself with my > older brother's guitar. to me guitar accompaniments > meant pretty much just > strumming your way through three chords and getting > away with it. when i > heard joni's "guitar management techniques" i > discovered that you had an > orchestra at your beck and call if you learned how > to use the alternate > tunings. The guitar: orchestra in a box. ===== Catherine Toronto ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2003 13:19:09 -0800 (PST) From: Don Rowe Subject: Re: DED ... Hi Mark, and good to hear from you! I completely agree about DED being a significant step in Joni's artistic development. And that frightening sound in "Slouching ..." is, if memory serves, a call made by one of Joni's cats. I recall an interview where she tells a story about stalking one of her cats with a mic and a DAT machine for several days to sample that particular meow. Talk about creative uses for a synth ... ;-) Don Rowe ===== Visit me anytime at http://www.mp3.com/donrowe Yahoo! Web Hosting - establish your business online http://webhosting.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2003 13:29:27 -0800 (PST) From: Don Rowe Subject: Re: DED ... Oh heavens! Am I really that predictable? Oh well, it's all in a good cause. I guess I've just always been curious about the point of view that holds, at the same time, that Joni's use of different guitar tunings is brilliant, her forays into jazz daring and envelope stretching ... yet the moment she touches an electronic instrument ... it's a pop sell-out. Or maybe there is an evil twin Joni who kidnapped our beloved SIQUOMB and put out "those three" albums! ;-D Don Rowe ===== Visit me anytime at http://www.mp3.com/donrowe Yahoo! Web Hosting - establish your business online http://webhosting.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2003 16:32:50 -0500 From: "Lama, Jim L'Hommedieu" Subject: Re: "HDCD"'s versus original issue CD's; what is the REALdifference? Yeah, me too about the Steve Hoffman-mastered "Blue". (Three?) Maybe we'll get DVD-Audio versions of everthing soon. If the Rolling Stones are out on SACD, and "Dark Side Of The Moon" is out on hi-rez multichannel SACD, maybe Reprise will add on to their releases too. (BSN is already available on DVD-Audio.) Me? I'm eventually gonna upgrade the vinyl playback. After all, I already have a library of discs to play in a high rez format. :) If I buy a DVD-Audio player I'll have exactly zero titles to play and having a player sitting there will do nothing for what I already have. How am I gonna get everything out of those primo vinyl pressings like Emmylou's "Quarter Moon In A Ten Cent Town" if I'm sidetracked into a brand new format? Why would I want to pay retail again? Lama RR wrote: You are right! I thought it was still in print, but it isn't. Glad I got one when it was 'only' $25. Gerald Notaro wrote: > Absolutely. But it is now running around $75.00, and will probably get > costlier. Who wrote? > > ps In the case of Blue, if you love this album, the gold version > > is worth the extra bucks. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2003 22:23:12 +0000 From: colin Subject: Re: "Talk to me" >I'm like that too. I hate it. I always pick bastards. >What's my friggin' problem? > The problem does lie with you. Not that you only imagine them to be bastards but that you are attracted to and accept treatment/behaviour that is detrimental to you but that you are used to. Once we have learned to value our own selves, we cease to be attracted to those that don't value us. I certainly know this was true for me.i always made friends with people who ttreated me like those who brought me up. thus I was always unhappy and always being mistreated.Then i wised up. People are different, mrena nd women are different. each deals wiht life differently, feels differently and expresses life differently.Quite often we expect from others that which they cannot give. We expect them to be like us when they are not. Just ebcause a man does not express his feelings in the way we wuld wnat, does not make them 'unfeeling'. It just emans they deal differently. So much of our problems with eachother is not being able to communicate well and expecting others to be as we are. Not relaistic and the path to pain. bw colin ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2003 14:32:16 -0800 (PST) From: Mags N Brei Subject: Re: Chinese Cafe Colin, first of all, it's wonderful to see you back .. I hope you are feeling okay. secondly... Chinese Cafe does indeed make direct references to Joni's daughter... "my child's a stranger I bore her but I could not raise her . " I can certainly see why you would think that the lines you mention are a reference to Joni's daughter as well. sends shivers up my spine to hear her sing... "I need your love, God speed your love to me" **** ( that drawn out vowel sound gets to me every time). Ive always loved this song so much especially with unchained melody woven through Joni's words . mags xo colin wrote: I have always thought the song mixed with Unchained Melody(a beautiful song) was odd. Today I was listening to it on Travelogue. It suddenly occurred to me that she is singing the words of Unchained Melody to her daughter. I hunger for your touch-i pray god brings your love to me(or something like that). It makes sense to me anyway. You open my heart, you do. Yes you do. - JM Yahoo! Web Hosting - establish your business online ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2003 17:39:40 -0500 From: "michael o'malley" Subject: Joni mention in G&M There was a sweet little Joni moment in the Saturday Globe & Mail again. Pink Floyd's Dark Side of the Moon is turning 30. This album remained on the Bilboard albums chart for 741 weeks ( ! ) beginning March 1973. Other Floyd trivia tidbits: Great Gig in the Sky was voted `Best Song to Make Love To` by Australian radio listeners in 1990 (ya gotta love 'em!) and Clare Tory's classic vocals on that track earned her the princely sum of 30 pounds for her contribution. Now for the Joni content: drummer Nick Mason told an interviewer that he was frankly stumped by the record's enduring popularity, adding `` there's no way this record is stunningly better than 20 or 40 of the great albums of the last two decades. Joni Mitchell's Court and Spark was more to Mason's preference.`` Michael in Quebec ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2003 15:21:22 -0800 (PST) From: Susan Guzzi Subject: Dark Cafe Days/Chicago Style I offer up this challenge to any of you who have never attended a Jonifest, minifest, Paz fest or simply met up with any other list members ... JUST DO IT! I dare you not to have a great time and not feel a part of some secret society! Last night, I had the pleasure of meeting up with Kerry, Steve Polifka, Dennis and Jack! Along with these listers Dennis brought two friends AND my "older" cousin Kathy (snicker). Steve brought his sweet partner Jeff along for the adventure as well. While Dennis and his entourage met up elsewhere, Kerry, Steve, Jeff and I met at "The Closet." We began indulging in libations and were treated to a performance by my friend & bartender Lee. She performed her fan dance to the Madonna video, Vogue, flawlessly and to a huge round of applause, as per usual. We then mosied over to Davenports. We were greeted at the door by Dennis, who recognized us immediately. We then attemped to make our way to our seats. I was surprisingly greeted by both bartenders, who seemed to know me. Hmmm do I party too much? One was an old friend, Sue Who- as she is known. The other also mentioned her excitement at seeing my name on their reservation list for the evening - WHO WAS SHE!?? (shrug) Happily as we entered the cabaret room I saw my "older" cousin Kathy, sitting there. I am enjoying saying this as she is only 3 years older, but complained all night about my making that reference to our relationship. And since she is now threatening to join the list and attend a Jonifest, I hope she someday finds this post in the archives. Soon after Jack Merkel joined the table. The two owner of Davenports then came to the table, friends of Dennis and travel compaions of his on his trip to China. I also was surrised they remembered me from the old days. They were there to see the show for the first time themselves. The show began with the three performers stepping on to the stage and opening their set with "Raised On Robbery." Immediately the harmonies stood out for me and the tone of the night was set. This was not to be an imitation of Joni, but purely done in a cabaret, nightclubby short of flavor. As there has been some talk here latley of Joni's songs becoming standards , I found this style to the most advantageous to that accomplishment or goal. Both of the women, Anne & Allison :-P - had what I would say had medium to deeper voice ranges, definitely not meant to be mimicking "the chirp." Rob's voice may have been the highest but was not really meant to challenge the high notes, nor did he try. Next they did, again with great harmonies, "You Turn Me On ..." There was an initial fear they would stick to the really well known Joan and steer clear of some of her true treasures. With Allison :-P having the first solo, I was quickly corrected. She did a very nice rendition of "Barangrill." Anne who I think was the most stylistic and more the actress came up with, "The Last Time I Saw Richard" - maybe her weakest song of the night for me, although she was fab on several others. And Rob's first solo was "Help Me." Backed up by some sweet harmony, provided by Anne & Allison:-P. YES I am going to make that sign every time I mention her! The rest of the set went like this: Allison/Two Grey Rooms Anne/ Sunny Sunday Rob/In France They Kiss On Main Street During the evening Rob had some flubs of lines and thankfully Steve was in the audience to prompt him! Next came what may have been the best song of the evening, when Anne did her version of "The Gallery." You had to love this, even for those of you who may not love this song, she just really nailed it and beautifully. Then Allison :-P did the same with, the soon to be a standard, "Blue Motel Room." And Rob's best was next with "See You Sometime." So it was bang bang bang, with each giving their best and you had to be way into it now! They interjected some Joni facts or myths, depending on what your knowledge of Joan truly is. Rob in fact picked up and played the ukelele, mentioning this was Joni's first instrument. And later, there was a reference to Janis, the muppet, being created with Joni in mind. If anyone can confirm or disspell this rumor please let us know. And the set contuinued: All/Solid Love Rob/A Case of You All/Circle Game And the big finish was an acappella version, with finger snapping of "Big Yellow Taxi." Once again with super harmonies. The nearly full room was mostly on their appreciative feet, as they exited the stage. The name of this group is Foiled Again. They do have plans for a follow-up Joni show. And they are considering a special "Blue" show as we found out later. We then moved into the main bar to socialize and discuss the show. Here we mingled for the rest of the evening with the three performers and each other. I did finally realize that Renee, the other bartender was an acquaintance from my past - so whew, talk about saving face! And she really just exchanged numbers with me, to see about playing softball for me this summer. Cousin Kathy and I got to enjoy some quality time with each other for the first time in several years, so that was very cool. This all lasted until I had to drag Kerry & Jack out of the bar as we were in fact the last patrons. We all talked and got to know a little about each other, speaking of the listers. Again, as I have said sooo many times - I have found my people! Now as luck would have it I managed to be standing right next to Allison - ok, I'll stop that face thing. We talked mostly to her and Rob, who was fast becoming our bud. They were thrilled to hear about the list AND VERY excited about Jonifest. So they too, have ideas now about joining and going! We sang bits of songs and laughed a lot. Then, and I can never tell when it's going to come over me, Ethel entered! We all took turns singing different lines from Joni songs as Ethel, including Allison, Rob, Kerry, Jack & Steve. On second thought maybe we were channellng Smurph channelling Ethel? And you know there may have been more but I have trouble remembering things when I am channelling. So I would say Jonifest Chicago style was a great success and a splendid time was had by all. So happy to have been a part of this great group and encourage others to get together anywhere anytime - all in the name of Joni! Kerry is now on a train on her way back to Milwaukee and I am sure will have her own report to file, as well as the others. Love to my old friends and new, I wouldn't have missed this for the world! Peace, Susan Yahoo! Web Hosting - establish your business online http://webhosting.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2003 17:22:14 -0600 From: "Mary E. Pitassi" Subject: RE: Was "Talk to me"; now, JERKS!! (NCJ) Catherine wrote, and Colin responded: ">I'm like that too. I hate it. I always pick bastards. >What's my friggin' problem? > The problem does lie with you. Not that you only imagine them to be bastards but that you are attracted to and accept treatment/behaviour that is detrimental to you but that you are used to. Once we have learned to value our own selves, we cease to be attracted to those that don't value us. [. . . ]" OK. Colin, I get this; I really do. But doesn't at least some of the problem lie with the bastards for being. . .well, JERKS?? Obviously, we're responsible for a lot of the negativity we let into our lives. And yes, we can only control our own behavior, not anyone else's. But I can't help but think that some people put up with abuse because they are fundamentally loving and trusting. They believe, for too long, and against all evidence to the contrary, that the person they care about is basically good and decent, and/or will change. The result is bad, certainly, but is the hope? This line of thought also sometimes reminds me of the trend in some "New Age" thought to emphasize the power of positive thinking to counter life-threatening illnesses. . .with the very damaging flip side that, if the patient doesn't recover quickly or, God forbid, dies, they must not have been "positive" enough. It's his or her own fault. So to close: yes, I (or you) can let it in, or not let it in. But doesn't the ultimate root of the illness/negativity lie elsewhere? Mary P., rambling on on a Saturday afternoon, and wishing she lived in a world where all human beings took responsibility for their own Inner Jerkdom. ;-) After all (more seriously, now), peace begins at home. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2003 19:17:22 EST From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: Dark Cafe Days/Chicago Style In a message dated 3/15/2003 6:22:55 PM Eastern Standard Time, groovchacha@yahoo.com writes: > I offer up this challenge to any of you who have never attended a Jonifest, > minifest, Paz fest or > simply met up with any other list members ... JUST DO IT! I dare you not > to have a great time and > not feel a part of some secret society! > Thanks for your truly WONDERFUL report, Susie Guzzi! And you're dead on, I'm looking forward to my upcoming weekend with JMDL friends old & new. Don't know exactly what all I'm in for, only know it'll be great, and how cool is that? I loved the song selection that the performers did - they really picked some obscure songs from the Joni songbook! Bob NP: Jackson Browne, "Rock Me On The Water", live '73 ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2003 19:30:07 EST From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Back to T'log I really joined in again to see what the die-hards all thought, but things have been eerily silent on the subject. 'Cuz our Mama's taught us - "if you can't say something nice about something, don't say anything at all" ;~) OK, not totally true about the lackluster (to me) T'log. Firstly, it's disappointing to me that Joni must consider herself 'used up' to continue to recycle her old material. By doing so, she's just playing into the hands of the biz that says that when a performer hits 6-0 or thereabouts they're good for revues and that's about it. Personally I think Joni is capable of her best work yet, so I wish she would push herself harder than she's doing, working with the same songs, the same players, and adding Mendoza's predictable & mostly tiresome arrangements to some of her best work. On the upside, I LOVE what she does with "Flat Tires", she should have employed Billy Preston's organ-playing more than she does, and I also love her expansion of the audio colors on "Dawntreader". Both of these tracks hint at what a creative expression Travelogue COULD HAVE been, instead of the tedium that it actually is. Of course, lots of folks here love every nanosecond of it, and I couldn't be happier for them. Bob NP: Jackson Browne, "These Days", live '73 ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Mar 2003 00:48:37 +0000 From: colin Subject: Re: Chinese Cafe Mags N Brei wrote: > Colin, first of all, it's wonderful to see you back .. I hope you are > feeling okay. > thank you. 19lbs lighter, taken up yoga(which is fantastic) and down to 4-5 fags a day(from 30). the weather here is lovely and dry and has been for many weeks now, so have been getting many more walks with the dogs. > secondly... Chinese Cafe does indeed make direct references to Joni's > daughter... > > "my child's a stranger > > I bore her > > but I could not raise her . " > yes those words are obvious. > > > I can certainly see why you would think that the lines you mention > are a reference to Joni's daughter as well. > > sends shivers up my spine to hear her sing... > > "I need your love, > > God speed your love to me" > It just didn't gel with me before now that the UM words were also to her daugther.... > **** > > ( that drawn out vowel sound gets to me every time). > > Ive always loved this song so much especially with unchained > melody woven through Joni's words . > > mags > > xo > > colin wrote: ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2003 20:01:22 -0500 (EST) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: Dark Cafe Days/Chicago Style --- Susan Guzzi wrote: > > there was a reference to Janis, the muppet, being > created with Joni in mind. If anyone can > confirm or disspell this rumor please let us know. Can't do anything to confirm or deny, but, hey there is a resemblance. I think Joni would like that - Janis is a jazzer. ===== Catherine Toronto ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2003 20:19:58 -0500 (EST) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: Joni mention in G&M --- michael o'malley wrote: > Now for the Joni content: drummer Nick > Mason told an interviewer > that he was frankly stumped by the record's [Dark Side of the Moon's] enduring > popularity, adding `` > there's no way this record is stunningly better than > 20 or 40 of the great > albums of the last two decades. Joni Mitchell's > Court and Spark was more to > Mason's preference.`` The man has taste. As for me, I love both of them, so there you go. ===== Catherine Toronto ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Mar 2003 01:22:00 +0000 From: colin Subject: Re: Was "Talk to me"; now, JERKS!! (NCJ) Mary E. Pitassi wrote: > Catherine wrote, and Colin responded: > > ">I'm like that too. I hate it. I always pick bastards. > >What's my friggin' problem? > > > The problem does lie with you. Not that you only imagine them to be > bastards but that you are attracted to and accept treatment/behaviour > that is detrimental to you but that you are used to. Once we have > learned to value our own selves, we cease to be attracted to those that > don't value us. [. . . ]" > > OK. Colin, I get this; I really do. But doesn't at least some of > the problem lie with the bastards for being. . .well, JERKS?? No where was i suggesting that we are responsible for someone else's behaviour. not at all. We are however responsible for our own and what we allow.IF we allow others to treat us badly, then yes we are responsible for that. We have given our permission. A person with a good sense of self just does not allow themselves to be treated badly consistently. We cannot do much about random bad treatment from strangers but we can do much about bad treatment from those we have in our lives. > > But I can't help but think that some people put up with abuse > because they are fundamentally loving and trusting. Wouldn't it be nice if that were so? There are many people who are fundamentally loving and trusting who still value themselves and they don't take shit from people. > They believe, for too long, and against all evidence to the > contrary, that the person they care about is basically good and > decent, and/or will change. The result is bad, certainly, but is the > hope? yes because it is at their expense. besides, if someone is truly 'believing' for too long and despite the evidence, then love and trust is not the driving force. it is more likely fear, guilt, shame, a refusal to take responsibility, a refusal to see things as they are instead of how they want them to be. Also, one can believe on one level that one is being trusting and kind and loving and all those good things when actually what one is driven by is fear and guilt and shame. But they don't sound so good do they? > > This line of thought also sometimes reminds me of the trend in some > "New Age" thought to emphasize the power of positive thinking to > counter life-threatening illnesses. . .with the very damaging flip > side that, if the patient doesn't recover quickly or, God forbid, > dies, they must not have been "positive" enough. It's his or her own > fault. i find that appalling and have said so here before now. It is just another way of avoiding what we don't want to acknowledge, a way of kidding ourselves that we have power when we have none, another form of whistling in the dark. However, it is really not the same thing that we are talking about. > > But doesn't the ultimate root of the illness/negativity lie elsewhere? no. it lies with all concerned. Personal responsibility means us too! if we consistently allow, give someone permission to, behave badly, then yes, we are responsible too. Does our withdrawing our permission change that person? No. not if it is just us. They just latch onto someone else. However, if EVERYONE refused to accept the unacceptable, where would that leave the person acting out? No where to go, alone, isolated, fearful, and no audience. Their acting out would cease. So, as unpalatable as it feels, we are more responsible than we like to think. The fact that we are good people acting out of love and trust whilst they are the bad people, is really just a lie we tell ourselves to avoid having to see ourselves. This does NOT mean that vile behaviour and treatment is excusable or caused exclusively by us. As you know, I was in an abusive situation all thru my childhood. i was not responsible for that,i couldn't be, I was a child. HOWEVER, I am responsible for the fact I allowed it go on into adulthood. I am responsible for putting myself in harms way consistently. Did I do it out of love and trust? I thought so. But I came to realise I did it out of shame and guilt and fear(and in that particular situation because of one of the Commandments) and a refusal to accept my powerlessness and a fundamental lack of respect for myself. Not only that, I went on to repeat this same scenario with other people till, after a lot more anguish, i finally got it! People treated me badly because I let them. simple. I don't have people like that in my life anymore. i'd rather be lonely, be considered odd, be an outcast, be a loner, than to have my self abused again. I will not allow my compassion for someone, let me be abused again.I will not let my desire to be accepted and liked allow me to be abused again. None of it was easy to learn, let alone understand, and the truth of it is not what i wanted to hear. But the rightness of this understanding has born good healthy fruit, so it holds validity for me. ------------------------------ End of onlyJMDL Digest V2003 #91 ******************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she? (http://www.siquomb.com/siquomb.cfm)