From: les@jmdl.com (onlyJMDL Digest) To: onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Subject: onlyJMDL Digest V2003 #63 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/onlyjoni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com Unsubscribe: mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe onlyJMDL Digest Monday, February 24 2003 Volume 2003 : Number 063 Sign up now for JoniFest 2003! http://www.jonifest.com ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: The State of the List ["hell" ] Travelogue review ["hell" ] Re: New Joni Picture [frasere@intergate.ca] Re: The State of the List [colin ] Re: The State of the List [David Marine ] Re: The State of the List [Susan Guzzi ] Re: The State of the List [Chris Marshall ] State of the List ["Laurent Olszer" ] Joni on lap steel ["Laurent Olszer" ] Re: The State of the List [Catherine McKay ] Re: Travelogue review [Catherine McKay ] Re: onlyJMDL Digest V2003 #62 [StDoherty@aol.com] Re: State of the List [Catherine McKay ] Petula Clark (correction) ["Moni Kellermann" ] Re: The State of the List [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Them Frisbees [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: The State of the List [anne@sandstrom.com] Re: GRAMMY AWARDS are on now, jc [Gerald Notaro ] RE: State of the List ["Victor Johnson" ] Re: The State of the List [Jenny Goodspeed ] Re: JMDL Digest V2003 #140 [Kardinel@aol.com] Re: State of the List (new members) [Little Bird ] Re: The State of the List [FMYFL@aol.com] Re: State of the List (new members) ["Victor Johnson" Subject: Re: The State of the List Les wrote: > Can we talk? Does the JMDL seem to have taken on a different flavor > lately? Does it seem to have lost some of its sense of community? Does > anyone else feel this way? I find myself more and more simply skimming > through posts rather than reading them. That makes me sad. I find myself in the same position - from posting on two or three topics a day, now I can barely find two or three a month where I feel enough interest to contribute. The majority of posts when I first joined were, if not Joni-based, at least musically- or entertainment-based. Also, when I first joined the list, it was far more light-hearted in content (in the main) and an enjoyable past-time - which is why I enjoyed it so much. Now it has become a chore wading through the masses of links and opinions on the current world situation that people are posting. I'm not belittling the importance of current events, but this is not the forum in which I choose to discuss them, or read about them, to be honest. For that, I'd join a politically-based list. > It just feels like there's something missing. Maybe it's the content of > late. I don't particularly care for the political threads which seem to be > dominating in the last few months (I know others feel differently). Given > that, I have even less of a liking for the thought of any kind of moderation. I know people wish to discuss any and all topics, and I agree that an unmoderated list gives more freedom to talk about topics other than Joni, but things have definitely changed in that regard. The political discussion have been foremost for several months now. I've tried to start or participate in other topics, but they just seem to get lost, and people seem to lose interest quickly. > What can be done? I am really interested in a frank, civilized discussion > on the state of the list. Along with a list of grievances, I'd also > appreciate some real suggestions on how to actively improve the JMDL. > > Through the years, I've heard a lot of people say that this list is one of > the best on the Internet. I feel like it's in danger of losing that > distinction. > > Please voice your opinion and help me put this list back on top. I'm not sure what the answer is - I don't think you can start censoring people here, or where do you draw the line? Nothing but Joni? We already have that option with Joni-only. The political list Les set up on Yahoo doesn't seem to have worked as it was intended, either. Hell - full of opinions, but very sparse on ideas! ___________________________________ "To have great poets, there must be great audiences too." - Walt Whitman Hell's Home Page - NEW & IMPROVED! http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~hell/index.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2003 21:24:30 +1300 From: "hell" Subject: Travelogue review I always said NZ was six months behind the rest of the world, and this goes a long way to prove it! Travelogue has been in the stores for a while (it was around at Xmas) but this review was printed just last week. Personally I thought it was a very honest, and accurate review. And it's Joni content, through and through! NEW ZEALAND LISTENER, February 22 2003 MUSIC - NICK BOLLINGER The last time I saw Joni TRAVELOGUE, Joni Mitchell (Nonesuch) "'Kiss my ass,' I said and I threw my drink/tequila trickling down his business suit" began a song on 1998's Taming The Tiger, and it seems to sum up Joni Mitchell's relationship with the whole conglomeration of media, musicians and record labels that loosely defines the music industry. Widely acknowledged as the mother of modern singer-songwriting, Mitchell nevertheless insists that she has never had her due. For the female singer-songwriters who have followed in her footsteps, attempting to match her masterly melding of melody and verse, she has nothing but scorn. That none of them will write a melody as hair-raisingly beautiful as "The Last Time I Saw Richard" or a lyric as profoundly elegant as "For The Roses" is of little comfort to her. The only writers she compares herself to, she has said, are Bob Dylan and Shakespeare. Now she claims to have quit the "corrupt cesspool" for good. And Travelogue, her latest and possibly last album, does have the feel of finality about it. Twenty-two showpieces from Mitchell's back catalogue - the oldest, "The Circle Game", written in 1966, the most recent a pair of songs from 1994's Turbulent Indigo - rearranged for 70-piece orchestra, jazz rhythm section and occasional choir, with Mitchell's voice out in front. Gaze on this body of work and wonder, it seems to say. And kiss my ass while you're at it. Though the best of her records - eg, 1970's Blue - remain ageless, some now sound dated; the prissy fingerpicking of Song To A Seagull, the technology-drenched production of Dog Eat Dog. So Mitchell has sought to free some of her best songs by resetting them in a timeless genre of her own devise - part swing, part Hollywood score, part orchestral art-song. American arranger Vince Mendoza (whose CV includes numerous scores for European big bands and symphony orchestras, a collaboration with Bjork on her Dancer in the Dark soundtrack, and arrangements for Mitchell's earlier orchestral experiment Both Sides Now) has extrapolated from Mitchell's songs subtle, varied orchestrations that at times recall Gil Evan's work with Miles Davis. He proves his empathy early in the album, painting the "burning desert" of the opening verse of "Amelia" in almost visibly shimmering chords, then adding chilly little dissonances as Mitchell flies to the "icy altitudes" of the song's final lines. It's masterly stuff. As for Mitchell's voice, beaten down by smoke and years, it has gained in texture what it has lost in top-end. It gives new meaning to a song such as "Woodstock", making it less the hippie reverie and more a remembrance of paradise lost. Framed by a pair of songs representing visions of love and hate (adapted from the New Testament and W B Yeats, respectively), the new version is all the more poignant. No doubt Mitchell would be happy to accept the mantle of seer, and Travelogue draws attention to the uncanny number of prophetic resonances in her songs. "While Muslims stick up Washington..." goes the refrain of "Otis and Marlena", unremarked when it first appeared a quarter-century ago. And there is "Slouching Towards Bethlehem", Mitchell's 1987 adaptation of Yeat's "The Second Coming", brimming with visions of impending apocalypse. "The wrath has finally taken form/For what is this rough beast/Its hour come at last", Mitchell sermonises. And to reinforce the images there are paintings in the accompanying booklet, with surreal depictions of the Twin Towers, George Bush, Colin Powell and Osama bin Laden. Travelogue is hardly flawless. Saxophonist Wayne Shorter - the main soloist, other than Mitchell - often seems adrift amid the lavish orchestrations. The choral voices in "The Sire of Sorrow (Job's Sad Song)" threaten to turn one of Mitchell's biblical adaptations into Andrew Lloyd Webber. And there are moments, as in "The Last Time I Saw Richard", when Mendoza's chords fail to match the crisp delicacy of Mitchell's original voicings. At other times the whole edifice threatens to topple under the weight of Mitchell's earnestness. Even the jokes are serious ("lawyers haven't been this popular/Since Robispierre slaughtered half of France", goes a couplet in the cheerless "Sex Kills"). At more than two hours in length, Travelogue can seem like hard work, and yet there are rewards for anyone prepared to make the effort. If, as Mitchell has hinted, she has composed her own epitaph, Travelogue is a worthy one, full of the beauty and fury that defines her. But it's too soon for epitaphs. However deep her disdain for the business she's in, she should remember her own defiant words, from 1972's "Judgement of the Moon and Stars": You've got to shake your fists at lightning You've got to roar like forest fire You've got to spread your light like blazes All across the sky They're going to aim the hoses on you You show them you won't expire Not 'til you burn up every passion Not even when you die. Hell ___________________________________ "To have great poets, there must be great audiences too." - Walt Whitman Hell's Home Page - NEW & IMPROVED! http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~hell/index.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2003 00:29:51 -0800 From: frasere@intergate.ca Subject: Re: New Joni Picture Quoting Moni Kellermann : > > > You can directly access the picture at > http://www.williamclaxton.com/rec/13.swf > I LOVE how the photographer says that Joni makes smoking SO sensual....... Stephen in Vancouver and ex smoker for over 3 months now! ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2003 08:50:15 +0000 From: colin Subject: Re: The State of the List As I have said before, the list has changed since sept 11th. It would be very surprising if it hadn't. Having been here fore almost 6 years, I recall many times where the subjects have been contentious, where there has been much flaming, personal attacks etc. this is not new. I do not feel the sense of community has been lost. Many people still have the bonds they forged. Perhaps those who feel the sense of community has been lost are those who dropped out of it? To have a communtiy we have to be part of it. If we set ourselves apart form it, then of course the community feel will be lost to us for we have left it. My own opinion is this: even before the NJC/Joni Only thing was sorted out, I don't recall so many psost complaining about content. This has really concerned me. Why? Because I just knew it was going to lead to this post of Les' and I fear will come to ruin the JMDL once and for all. Life ebbs and flows and the JMDL does too. I truly believe if left well alone, as it always been, it will flow again. It can never be what it was because none of us are what we were. The world has changed, so have we and so has the JMDL. I don't believe the JMDL has changed permently for the worse. Periods of change and growth can be painful. If arrested, it can be disasterous. I still think this a wonderful and exciting list. Yes, I do find some of the posts tedious and boring. i wouldn't dream of telling you which ones. People find interest and excitement in different topics, who am I to back handedly tell them they are not up to the mark? When it comes to expressing ideas, and having people disagreeing with them, so many of us are unable to distingusih between attacking an idea and attacking a person. The worst posts I have seen recently were those attacking a person for her sincerely held ideas. however, clumsily they may or may not have been expressed, the personal attacks she recieved were dreadful . i was so disappionted to see these attacks from people I formerly had respected. BUT then I think about the war,about sept 11th, and how these people have been affected, I feel more tolerant and understanding of them. All these years, I have felt Les to be an excellent list host and this list to be a magical place. If the paremeters and rules are changed, it will be lost forever. We, the members, have always more or less decided on how this place is. Most of the time our decisions have been such that we have had a warm family like atmosphere. Even the best of families argue. We each have a peronal responsibilty to write in such a way that it makes the list a place we want to be part of. I feel that 'bowing out' abdicates that responsibilty. i do not feel that expressing contentious ideas ( and most ideas are to someone!) is bad or wrong. People are responsible for how they react to them. Such ideas can be expressed, and mostly are, without personal attacks. It is when the ideas are challenged in the form of personal abuse that the trouble starts. In the end, I fear for this list greatly now. Not because of the turbulence here recently, but because of the calls for contol measures. Once that starts, the list is finished as it is and will become just another fan list. we are each responsible. bw colin ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2003 01:19:33 -0800 From: David Marine Subject: Re: The State of the List Les -- I agree with Colin. The list ebbs and flows. Perhaps if it has indeed become "worse," it is about to flower into something even better. For me, the discussions of music (and especially of new and current music, Joni's and others) are the most interesting. However, I have greatly valued the insights and links that people have offered about the war. Les, I think your stewardship has been excellent and I see no need for you to change the way you are handling things. Best, David > All these years, I have felt Les to be an excellent list host and this > list to be a magical place. If the paremeters and rules are changed, it > will be lost forever. We, the members, have always more or less decided > on how this place is. Most of the time our decisions have been such that > we have had a warm family like atmosphere. Even the best of families argue. > We each have a peronal responsibilty to write in such a way that it > makes the list a place we want to be part of. I feel that 'bowing out' > abdicates that responsibilty. > i do not feel that expressing contentious ideas ( and most ideas are to > someone!) is bad or wrong. People are responsible for how they react to > them. Such ideas can be expressed, and mostly are, without personal > attacks. It is when the ideas are challenged in the form of personal > abuse that the trouble starts. > > In the end, I fear for this list greatly now. Not because of the > turbulence here recently, but because of the calls for contol measures. > Once that starts, the list is finished as it is and will become just > another fan list. > > we are each responsible. > > bw > colin ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2003 02:36:41 -0800 (PST) From: Susan Guzzi Subject: Re: The State of the List Les and Friends, I agree for the most part here with all the concerns raised. Being a person who has been a part of the political discussions since my beginning here (3yrs), I do see some change in the approach. I don't mind and am guilty of taking things as a personal attack and of also being sharp tongued or sarcastic, on OCCASSION. The thing that has, for me, gotten out of control is what Scott brought up, the incesstant posting on one subject, by one individual or more. TO me this illustrates a lack of concern for anything but ones opinion. And a stubborness and selfishness to do nothing but be perceived as right or to be sure to have the last word on a topic. There are other issues that are out of our control. Such as a lull in the life and times of Joni. She is in the twilight of her career. And we have had a couple of years, from just before BSN and up to T'Logue with much Joni content, albums, personal life, accolades, etc. And then we do have the sudden turmoil in the world. Since 9/11 as Colin mentioned. The very brink of, I believe, self destruction we are on and that the world faces. So it is the times - they are a changing. All that said, we ave lost the sense of commnity, as Ashara mentioned. But there are pockets of it out there from this list that are more community like than ever. Fest goers for one have maintained a growing and thriving community which we still connect with outside of this forum. There are other places where friendships continue to grow and expand. The best thing to get us back in line, is to discuss this and develop a bit more of a conscience about our "citizenship" here. I do NOT like rules and this is where I must say limiting peoples posts for the day, or the content or even stifling those who may get a little hot under the collar, would not only take the spirit of the group away but I think would drive many out the door from the other direction. It happens either way sometimes, moderation is the key and the how often this occurs. My suggestion is now that it has come to this, people moderate yourselves and stop being selfish and stubborn, myself included. This disussion alone should help send a wake up call. And it's not to say we can't or will never go through a hard time again. The world isn't going to cure itself any day soon, we are only human here as well. Finally, in order to inject more Joni content, why not go in the acrchives, and I am so sorry I don't have the time or capabilities do do this, but from my memory, and recycle some subjects/threads. I remember when we did the desert island album thread, how many said, well that's my list today, tomorrow may be different - or maybe that was just me? Well it's a new day, year so let's have at some of them again. If we can all think or research one or two and put them out there over the next few weeks, we can get a little Joni Mo' going and perhaps we will catch fire again. Review: 1. Joni content lacking ... pull out some old threads 2. self moderation and respect for others and self control about ones being self indulgent 3. No rules or limits, as many will leave for those reasons as well 4. The times are a part of why things have gotten this out of hand Les your moderation is felt by it's very subtle touch the most and I think opening this up for discussion is another example of that. I have left a couple of remarks at the bottom that reiterate or further explain my perspective. I really tried to be careful not to finger point, although I probably did, but I apologize in advance. And there in lies why I have such bad feelings about censorship and editing and rules! So let's do a little group therapy here and get back to the garden. I love this place! Thanks to Les and all you do baby! And much love to my fellow Joniphiles. Peace, Susan David wrote: > I agree with Colin. The list ebbs and flows. Perhaps if it has indeed become > "worse," it is about to flower into something even better. However, I have greatly valued the > insights and links that people have offered about the war. Les, I think your stewardship has been excellent and I see no need for you to change the way you are handling things. > > Colin Wrote: > All these years, I have felt Les to be an excellent list host and this > > list to be a magical place. If the paremeters and rules are changed, it > > will be lost forever. We, the members, have always more or less decided > > on how this place is. > > In the end, I fear for this list greatly now. Not because of the > > turbulence here recently, but because of the calls for contol measures. > > Once that starts, the list is finished as it is and will become just > > another fan list. > > > > we are each responsible. Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more http://taxes.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2003 11:24:32 +0000 From: Chris Marshall Subject: Re: The State of the List I've noticed a change in the list of late, and got a bit depressed at some people, whose NJC content I value, deciding to go Joni-only. They're some of the people that *make* the NJC list what it is. I do wonder whether Les should perhaps have the power to declare a thread of discussion "dead" when it starts to repeat itself or descend into personal attacks. However, this has the downside of being close to, but not actual, censorship, as well as placing a burden on Les to be watching conversation. It could also expose Les to negative criticism from anyone who thinks their legitimate opinion, or fresh viewpoint, or whatever, has been stifled - something which he would absolutely not deserve. Someone mentioned a point about the lack of Joni content being related to Joni's recent lack of fresh creative output also. I'm not sure this holds true... I think there are many of us who are pretty firmly rooted in the past with what we regard as her best and most enduring material. I was less than 10 years old when Joni was at what I perceive to be her best, so the fact that I listen to almost none of her material past the late 70's hasn't had any bearing at all on what I get out of the list. Regards, - --Chris Marshall chrisAThatstand.org (AIM: Chr15Marshall) "If you're ever lost, I'll beat the world to finding you" Stryngs, "Bobblehats and Beer" Band website, with downloads, at http://www.stryngs.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2003 11:47:54 -0000 From: "Laurent Olszer" Subject: State of the List > The "community" you ask about has fractured. In my opinion, various camps > have pitched tents here and are being territorial. Those who are identified > as being not of the tribe are given the bum's rush or worse; personal > attacks have become all too common. ... I'd like you to consider asking JMDLers to post no more > than, say, four times a day. If enforced, this policy would greatly reduce > the noise and may also serve to make posters more carefully consider what > they are writing...instead of idle chatter perhaps we might enjoy a bit more > thoughtful discourse. > > And since you asked for frankness, I will state that while I am generally in > favor of "hands-off" type management styles, I don't think a contemporary > internet list with lots of passionate and diverse members can ideally > function without some leadership. I'm not calling for moderation, rather a > more active, vocal, and decisive list owner, one who will quickly jump in > when the shit starts flying, ready to scold, threaten, or banish when > necessary. Necessary to keep the topics in the ballpark, necessary to keep > the peace, necessary to guide and shape "one of the best lists on the > internet." > > Scott > I totally agree with Scott on all of the above. My personal feeling, in addition to Scott's post is: I kinda notice that the great majority of new members disappear, either from the list or into lukrdom after just a few posts. What struck me when I first joined is the number of personal messages and inuendos that one can only grasp after being on the list for a while. Now I'm used to it, but I can see how it would make new members feel this is a very select club that's hard to enter. So I would suggest to use more the off-list connection for the personal messages. Laurent ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2003 12:19:43 -0000 From: "Laurent Olszer" Subject: Joni on lap steel Last weekend was Joni night. Played Bob's Sweet Sixteen, his best of Joni covers; blew my mind. That's it I'm hooked on frisbees. Also watched this tape that's been circulating. All great stuff includind 2 DED acoustic tracks, excerpts from the BSN tour complete with the Miyake/Michelin tires ad dress, and 1 track out of the Blue era: California where Joni plays lap steel. I had no idea all these years that Joni used a lap steel for this. Although when I watched it was right on. I assume it's in open tuning? So my question is: in what other songs, from Blue or else, has Joni played an instrument other than guitar, piano or cigarette machine? Laurent ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2003 07:22:14 -0500 (EST) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: The State of the List --- Les Irvin wrote: > Joniphiles - - > > Can we talk? Does the JMDL seem to have taken on a > different flavor > lately? Does it seem to have lost some of its sense > of community? Does > anyone else feel this way? Les, I hope you don't regret asking this question. I don't care for the constant discussions of war vs peace or politics and people yelling at one another over who said what and what it might or might not have meant. I wish people would give it some time and thought before responding quickly to something they perceive as inflammatory. I know these things come up from time to time and it goes on for a while and then everything settles down. It hasn't settled down - yet. Maybe it will. I find it all very tiring. I don't enjoy discussing politics (I'm an avoider to the max, but no one tells me how to vote or how I *should* feel about anything. This last part is true of just about anyone - I can't comment on who the avoiders are, but they're probably not posting to discussions of war and whether it's a good thing or not to bomb the crap out of Iraq). I have my own feelings about war and politics and I don't feel it's necessary to shout these feelings out at people. People believe what they believe. I've been deleting these, of course. There has been more than the usual amount of postings to links - read this, read that. At the same time, I don't think any of us should tell other people what is appropriate and what isn't for discussion. The list is unmoderated and should remain that way, IMO, unless there's personal abuse involved, in which case the abuser should be warned and then, if they don't smarten up, kicked off. We live in troubled times, and some people feel the need to discuss this stuff, but I'm hoping some of the more lengthy discussions will die a natural death, as they often do (in this case, it may be an expected death after a lengthy illness, followed by a period of relief - I think you get my point.) ===== Catherine Toronto ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2003 07:36:24 -0500 (EST) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: Travelogue review --- hell wrote: > I always said NZ was six months behind the rest of > the world, and this goes > a long way to prove it! Travelogue has been in the > stores for a while (it > was around at Xmas) but this review was printed just > last week. Personally > I thought it was a very honest, and accurate review. Hell, that was a great review - very enjoyable. The guy has obviously listened to the whole thing, maybe more than once! I particularly like this line: "Gaze on this body of work and wonder, it seems to say. And kiss my ass while you're at it." ===== Catherine Toronto ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2003 07:40:05 EST From: StDoherty@aol.com Subject: Re: onlyJMDL Digest V2003 #62 In a message dated 2/24/2003 3:01:15 AM Eastern Standard Time, les@jmdl.com writes: > Subject: The State of the List > > Joniphiles - > > Can we talk? Does the JMDL seem to have taken on a different flavor > lately? Does it seem to have lost some of its sense of community? Does > anyone else feel this way? I find myself more and more simply skimming > through posts rather than reading them. That makes me sad Totally agree I've also become a skimmer - and sometimes don't even read at all. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2003 07:46:16 -0500 (EST) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: State of the List --- Laurent Olszer wrote: > > "I kinda notice that the great majority of new members disappear, either from the list or into lukrdom after just a few posts. What struck me when I first joined is the number of personal messages and inuendos that one can only grasp after being on the list for a while. Now I'm used to it, but I can see how it would make new members feel this is a very select club that's hard to enter." That's an excellent point, Laurent. I noticed it when I first joined and it made me feel sort of like an outsider. Like you, now that I've been here a while, I understand it (sometimes I even *get* it!) I hope it doesn't deter other new listers from posting because new points of view are always refreshing. ===== Catherine Toronto ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2003 14:25:28 +0100 From: "Moni Kellermann" Subject: Petula Clark (correction) > In a message dated 2/23/2003 2:10:02 PM Eastern Standard Time, > walterphil@excite.com writes: > > > i'm also a huge pet clark fan. I wrote: "I remember once taking photographs of Ms.Clark for a daily newspaper (late 80's). I mentioned Joni Mitchell to her and she said that she was a huge fan, too. Then, while walking with me down the hotel aisle, she started to sing "Carey" - the whole song with complete lyrics and in perfect style." I am sorry that my memory got mixed-up. The person I met who sang Carey was Lulu (also a well-known Brit pop singer from the Sixties)! Petula Clark was the one with the bad perm and no JM songs ;))) moni ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2003 08:33:56 -0500 From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: The State of the List Les, the main benefit of your "lurking" is that when you DO step up, it gets attention. Especially when you make some of these kind of statements. I've been pretty vocal about the "suckiness" of the list lately, and moved to J-only a month or so ago, which I've really enjoyed. The reason I've complained is not just to be a whiner, but because I care very deeply about this community. That being said, I'll offer a couple of suggestions: I'm not in favor of dictating content. I've been on other lists where it's done and people become gun-shy about posting. BUT it can be very dangerous in an e-mail forum when you get SO many people who feel like THEY have to have the last word, obviously the conversation/argument NEVER ends which is what we've seen with this Iraq thread. So, with that in mind, people need to learn how to state their case and LET IT GO. If someone counters with a dissenting opinion, so be it. Additionally, if a topic becomes dominated by 2 or 3 people, take it offlist. Obviously, if no one else is chiming in, no one else is interested. Keep in mind that many of us do get a newspaper, newsmagazine, watch the news on TV, and talk current events with friends, family, neighbors, co-workers. For this community to remain special & unique, there should be discussions that do it justice. DON'T LET THE MEDIA CONTROL WHAT YOU THINK & TALK ABOUT!!! I'm not really crazy about totally banal conversations (pets, food, the weather, etc) BUT they do give an opportunity for folks who don't post often to chime in. And they typically play out quickly. Birthday posts...it's great that birthdays are acknowledged here, and adds to the "family" feel. If you want to add a birthday wish to Wally or Jimmy's original greeting, consider doing it privately. That way, the happy birthday boy/girl/other still gets their greeting, and the rest of us don't have to wade through 20 "Happy Birthday" posts. ULTIMATELY: When in doubt, think about the "welcome" message that Les sent us all when we joined. (Les, maybe this is worth re-posting.) Anyway, I'm rambling. I guess we all come here for different reasons, and that's cool. It creates the diversity that makes this group special. But it's naive & foolish to think that doing nothing is going to help the situation. Bob NP: Kansas, "The Wall" ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2003 08:37:08 -0500 From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Them Frisbees In a message dated 2/24/2003 7:19:43 AM Eastern Standard Time, olszer@xlsecurity.com writes: > Played Bob's Sweet Sixteen, his best of Joni > covers; blew my mind. That's it I'm hooked on frisbees. Thanks, Laurent! Of course, I'm happy to share a copy with whomever would like one, and I'm also happy to entertain the idea of making another one. I'd love to hear suggestions from the list regarding what should be on it. Bob NP: Kansas, "Miracles Out Of Nowhere" ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2003 06:42:36 -0800 (PST) From: anne@sandstrom.com Subject: Re: The State of the List Hi Les, and everyone... Thanks for posting about this subject, Les. It's very courageous to scrutinize something you're such a big part of. For me, even though I've jumped in to some of the political threads of late, I'm finding them really tedious. I skip over much now. I've even tried sparking a little Joni content with the cars discussion. I like the idea of limiting the number of posts per day. I'd also like to see a size limit, somewhat generous, like one screen's worth (whatever that turns out to be). I think one dilemma is that among the more vocal, we kind of know each other now, BUT we don't cross a line into private lives (which is good IMHO). And Joni's not producing new material. So it's hard to have the same conversations over and over. I mean, don't we all groan when a newbie asks what SIQUOMB means? things I like best: most Joni Content discussion of other artists humorous or tender insights into other list members' lives (with a minimum of melodrama) For example, I love sharing Rose's anticipation of the Bruce concert. humor, including parodies things I don't like and skip: sniping at each other LOL - or Lots o' Links - enuf already Les, you set up a separate list for political discussion. It seems no one really took advantage of that, but I for one think it's time to do so. Could you please remind us how to sign up? Well, I'm nearing my proposed one page limit. I hope this is helpful. lots of love Anne ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2003 09:44:47 -0500 From: Gerald Notaro Subject: Re: GRAMMY AWARDS are on now, jc Norah Jones thanked Brian Blade a couple of times for playing on her record. Jerry Jim L'Hommedieu (Lama) wrote: > There are tons of Joni-related artists up for nominations. Someday Bryan > Thomas will be nominated. > > "But until then > > until then... > > this is > how you > learn it." > > Lama ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2003 15:09:46 +0000 From: "Tamsin Lucas" Subject: Videos Canada/US/Europe Hi Sarah, Canada and the US boith use NTSC, in Europe we are on PAL and Japan is different again. Anything you record will be fine in the US. tamsin _________________________________________________________________ MSN Messenger - fast, easy and FREE! http://messenger.msn.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2003 10:14:3 -0800 From: "Victor Johnson" Subject: RE: State of the List I think the sense of community here has suffered as of late. The intense political debates really alienate alot of people. Is it really worth it to continue them? Just because the list is unmoderated does not mean it just magically takes care of itself. It's like anything else in that it needs to be nurtured and taken care of like a plant. As someone said, we hear about the war and Iraq daily over and over on the media and everywhere else. I have always come to this list because of the sense of community I feel with like minded creative, passionate people through the music of Joni Mitchell. But lately when I have logged on I have just felt alienated. I am working on a cd right now, Parsonage Lane. The title track was written about this very community, about the experience I had at Ashara's house in Topsfield. It is a celebration of the magic, music, and love that so many people have experienced, all because of the JMDL. The day after I wrote this song was September 11th. Right now I am really trying to focus more on the way I was feeling on September 10th. I'm trying to finish this project...I still have a lot to do in a limited time, I'm training for a new full time job at Whole Foods Market, and I'm still getting situated in my new apartment. When I log on to the JMDL, and the only conversations I see are intense political debates between two or three people, it just brings me down. I don't have time to write anymore right now, Victor in Decatur - --- Victor Johnson - --- waytoblu@mindspring.com Visit http://www.cdbaby.com/victorjohnson Look for the new album "Parsonage Lane" in March 2003 Produced by Chris Rosser at Hollow Reed Studios ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2003 07:29:51 -0800 (PST) From: Jenny Goodspeed Subject: Re: The State of the List Les, thanks for voicing what some of us have been wondering about, too. I agree with the folks who believe this is not a forum to post links about the war for the purpose of "educating" or proving a point. A better choice would be to forward a link to those people you believe would be interested or send it to the PC yahoo group. Though I don't think we should have a posting limit, people could do some self-moderating. 1) if you want to contribute to several topics for that day, you could bundle up your responses in 1 or 2 emails, particularly if you only have a one line response (this is common list etiquette). 2) Is your response contributing to a group discussion or are you really just responding to a single person- i.e., does the whole list need to read what you are really just saying to a particular person - if not, send it privately. 3) My instinct last month was to switch to Joni-only like so many of us did. But, then I thought, well if I'm not interested in the list, then *I* need to post more about what I find interesting. And I was psyched this week when a little fire got started at Joni-only and people started discussing things enthusiastically again. And if it helps to know, folkbiz, the other music list I'm on is also wrangling with what to do about war/political posts and debates. But in their case it's easier - the list is moderated. No political debates allowed. And it is a far less interesting list to be on - not much of a community at all. Jenny - --- Les Irvin wrote: > Joniphiles - > > Can we talk? Does the JMDL seem to have taken on a > different flavor > lately? Does it seem to have lost some of its sense > of community? Does > anyone else feel this way? I find myself more and > more simply skimming > through posts rather than reading them. That makes > me sad. > > It just feels like there's something missing. Maybe > it's the content of > late. I don't particularly care for the political > threads which seem to be > dominating in the last few months (I know others > feel differently). Given > that, I have even less of a liking for the thought > of any kind of moderation. > > What can be done? I am really interested in a > frank, civilized discussion > on the state of the list. Along with a list of > grievances, I'd also > appreciate some real suggestions on how to actively > improve the JMDL. > > Through the years, I've heard a lot of people say > that this list is one of > the best on the Internet. I feel like it's in > danger of losing that > distinction. > > Please voice your opinion and help me put this list > back on top. > > Thanks in advance, > Les Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more http://taxes.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2003 11:20:08 EST From: Kardinel@aol.com Subject: Re: JMDL Digest V2003 #140 I always looked forward to reading the posts but lately, I too, delete and go through most quickly because I need to get away from the state of the world. Not only that a lot of them are preachy and not very kind in tone. Maureen ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2003 08:37:27 -0800 (PST) From: Little Bird Subject: Re: State of the List (new members) I think Laurent made an excellent point about the disappearance of new joiners to the list. I was made to feel extremely welcome by lots of people on this list. Even though we are not close friends, I still feel as if I am respected by most people on this list. I wonder, though, if it's the same for others who join and maybe fail to make a good first impression. Are they given a second chance? I have felt at times that I do not belong to that "inner circle" of elders on the list who have met in person, gone to Joni Fests and often meet up for Joni-related celebrations. I sometimes feel as if the people who have known Joni for longer sort of look down on new joiners - "Oh, what does HE know, he's just a kid. How could HE possibly understand?" Opinions are often discounted (not just my own) or outright ridiculed because of who the list member is or is not. This is not productive or particularly kind. Inside jokes and cliquish commentary that anyone else would find meaningless should probably not be posted on a public forum. This is a big turn-off and tends to breed lurking and skimming from new members who have not been made to feel particularly welcome or valued. I do think, though, that learning more about the people who join the list is as Joni-related as anything regarding her career. We have supported her, so are we not "JC" in and of ourselves? I guess basic respect for the nature of this forum is a must - respect for others, respect for the quality of the post and respect for new joiners who may not yet know or appreciate the subtleties of Joni's music. Embrace the new guy even if he may not know all there is to know about Ms. Mitchell! He or she will have lots to say if he or she is made to feel welcome and respected. If he's clueless, educate him! - -Andrew Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, and more ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2003 08:56:18 -0800 From: Steve Dulson Subject: The State of the List WHAT I LOVE ABOUT THIS LIST I have met people who I consider (they might have a different opinion!) friends for life. I have travelled to Victoria, Vancouver, London, New Orleans, Santa Barbara, Los Angeles (and more, and more...) and had excellent friends to hang out with. They have stayed at my house. I've stayed at theirs. We've shared dinners, wine, hugs, music, stories. These are people I love. There are people on the list who I look forward to meeting, when our travels bring us together, because I KNOW that we are kindred spirits. WHAT I DON'T LOVE ABOUT THIS LIST I hate to see my friends arguing with each other. I don't mean that we can't disagree. I'm sorry to flog a dead horse here, but I've said, all along (and learned it from experience on this list) that as soon as you start discussing religion, sexuality and politics, someone is going to get hurt. And I hate to see my friends hurt. It bugs the heck out of me when I look at a digest table of contents and see that 90% of the posts are from two or three people. I'm really tired of having calls for moderation condemned as attempted censorship. I'm appalled that some listers post deliberately provocative statements to trigger arguments. I am saddened when listers don't have the sensitivity to take an argument between two people off list. That'll do for now.... - -- ######################################################## Steve Dulson Costa Mesa CA steve@psitech.com "The Tinker's Own" http://www.tinkersown.com "The Living Tradition Concert Series" http://www.thelivingtradition.org/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2003 12:03:25 EST From: FMYFL@aol.com Subject: Re: The State of the List Since you asked Les, I'll give my opinion. I've been on the list 5 yrs now and I've seen some changes, but nothing drastic. I first joined because of JM.Com. Wally B. had announced "the writers" contest, and you had to be a member of the JMDL to enter. Someone brought that up the other day, and I think it's a great idea (as I've mentioned almost every year). Anyway, Joni was going to be releasing TTT, then she was touring, then BSN and more touring. As we all know, Joni isn't doing very much lately, so it's difficult to discuss new subjects about her. It's been over 3 months since anything has been posted on JoniMitchell.Com. I enjoy talking about Joni, but I for one, get bored discussing what she meant by a particular lyric when it's been discussed over and over. That's why I like the NJC so much. The only thing that bothers me is all of the political/war discussions. There seems to be about 8 or 9 people who are consumed with these debates, but it's important to them. I use the delete key. I like when people post about new or even old artists. I like when people talk about their lives, their pets, their children, their encounters, and yes even circumcision. They may be banal posts to some, but they are light and usually quite amusing. I love it when everyone wishes someone a happy birthday, and they post it to the list. People feel special for that one day when they see that others have wished them a HB publicly. The same when a lister's loved one dies. When I see these public posts of sympathy, it makes me feel like I'm part of a loving and caring community. Like Colin said," Life ebbs and flows and the JMDL does too. I truly believe if left well alone, as it always been, it will flow again" You can look at the archives, and you'll see all of the political threads from the 2000 U.S Presidential election. People were sick of reading them, but those who posted were going by the rules. I just deleted them. I still do, and it's no big deal for me. I still think you do a great job Les, and just by your post alone, I think the list will thrive. Thanks Les, you rock! Jimmy ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2003 12:5:35 -0800 From: "Victor Johnson" Subject: Re: State of the List (new members) I don't believe there is any inner circle and have never felt a part of one. And for the most part, I don't think anyone is looked down upon. Bob M. and Mags in particular have always been very welcoming to new people. The thing is, you don't just become part of a close knit group of people over night. When I first joined this list I didn't feel so close to so many people. In fact, the very first time I posted I was attacked immediately by someone who shall remain nameless. Other times over the past four years I have drifted away but I always return. Even at Pazfest, on Saturday night at Michael's house, I felt really overwhelmed and had a really difficult time that night though most people are probably not aware of that. But I've stuck it out and now can't imagine not being a member of this group. The biggest project I've ever done in my life is completely intertwined with this group. It's never easy to become more deeply involved in any kind of a relationship and it shouldn't be. It can be very difficult at times and occasionally you may just want to throw the towel in. But ultimately, if you stick it out, than you will find the sense of belonging that you are seeking. And the other thing is, not everyone wants a close relationship with this list. Some people may just want to check their mail periodically and remain anonymous. And that is fine. Some people may simply not be able to come to Jonifest, in spite of a scholarship fund...maybe its just not possible and that's okay too. I think that these different groups of people are simply going to have to coexist together. And sometimes people may feel left out if they don't have that sense of familiarity that many do. I don't think that anyone who has been to jonifest is trying to snub any new people or make them feel that they don't matter. I can see how it might be construed that way but knowing the people I do, I just don't think that is the case. If you really want to get to know some of these people better then make that extra effort. Is it easy? No...But then there are very few things in life that are very easy. In many ways, to pull this cd project together, I've felt at times that I've had to walk through the nine planes of hell. But somehow I manage to keep going. Victor in Decatur > I have felt at times that I do not belong to that "inner circle" of elders on the list who have met in person, gone to Joni Fests and often meet up for Joni-related celebrations. I sometimes feel as if the people who have known Joni for longer sort of look down on new joiners - "Oh, what does HE know, he's just a kid. How could HE possibly understand?" Opinions are often discounted (not just my own) or outright ridiculed because of who the list member is or is not. This is not productive or particularly kind. - --- Victor Johnson - --- waytoblu@mindspring.com Visit http://www.cdbaby.com/victorjohnson Look for the new album "Parsonage Lane" in March 2003 Produced by Chris Rosser at Hollow Reed Studios ------------------------------ End of onlyJMDL Digest V2003 #63 ******************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she? (http://www.siquomb.com/siquomb.cfm)