From: les@jmdl.com (onlyJMDL Digest) To: onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Subject: onlyJMDL Digest V2003 #40 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/onlyjoni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com Unsubscribe: mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe onlyJMDL Digest Monday, February 3 2003 Volume 2003 : Number 040 Sign up now for JoniFest 2003! http://www.jonifest.com ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: onlyJMDL Digest V2003 #39 Taming the Tiger print [Aerchak@aol.com] Re: Joni in Record Collector [Randy Remote ] Magdalene Laundries [Mags N Brei ] new joni & vinyl ["walterphil" ] RE: Fave Joni Lines (Magdalene Laundries) ["Mary E. Pitassi" ] Re: Fave Joni Lines (Magdalene Laundries) [dsk ] Re: Joni & the Catholic Church [dsk ] Today in History: February 3 [ljirvin@jmdl.com] Today's Library Links: February 3 [ljirvin@jmdl.com] Re: Fave Joni Lines (Magdalene Laundries) ["kakki" ] Re: Joni & the Catholic Church ["kakki" ] Re: Fave Joni Lines (Magdalene Laundries) ["kakki" ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 2 Feb 2003 21:39:40 EST From: Aerchak@aol.com Subject: Re: onlyJMDL Digest V2003 #39 Taming the Tiger print To Fauchja, I recently got a Taming the Tiger poster ( not print) off of Ebay. That's where I get all of my joni stuff. Andrea ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 02 Feb 2003 19:06:59 -0800 From: Randy Remote Subject: Re: Joni in Record Collector Interesting, Dan... While Mingus is generally blamed as the point in which Joni's carreer took a dive (even by herself), this table reveals that DJRD was the first release since Blue to drop below the top 20, at #25 as well as the third quickest to drop off the charts altogether. Mingus even rebounded to #17. As for sales, with Kate I cry "Brenda!" RR Dan Olson wrote: > I compiled some data found at http://www.robotwisdom.com/jorn/joni.html > Peak = peak position, weeks = number of weeks on chart (top 200?) > > STASG: Peak: #189, weeks: 9 > Clouds: Peak: #31, weeks: 36 > LOTC: Peak: #27, weeks: 33 > Blue: Peak: #15, weeks: 28 > FTR: Peak: #11, weeks: 28 > CAS: Peak: #2 (4 weeks), weeks: 64 > MOA: Peak: #2 (1 week), weeks: 22 > THOSL: Peak: #4, weeks: 17 > Hejira: Peak: #13, weeks: 18 > DJRD: Peak: #25, weeks: 13 > Mingus: Peak: #17, weeks: 18 > SandL: Peak: #38, weeks: 16 > WTRF: Peak: #25, weeks: 21 > DED: Peak: #63, weeks: 19 > CMIARS: Peak: #45, weeks: 16 > NRH: Peak: #41, weeks: 14 > TI: Peak: #47, weeks: 10 > > Of course, what I really want to know is how many total sales have there > been to date for each album? Anyone know where one could get that info? ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 2 Feb 2003 19:42:30 -0800 (PST) From: Mags N Brei Subject: Magdalene Laundries Listen to Joni's Magdalene Laundries, to Little Green, the Chinese Cafe...there are clues all over the place about the deep impression her experience made upon her . And if anyone gets the notion that women do forget and are able to get on with their lives, Id say that the fact that Joni decided to search for Kelly Green many years later is testimony to the fact that she indeed did not forget. None of us do. http://www.rlff.com/db_world02/cinema.cgi/films/view_178.htm Sarah, this talks about a film made about the Magdalene sisters...and you know, there may be more info.... like this: http://www.adoptionireland.com/media/magdalenesistersreview.htm sl.m@shaw.ca wrote:When I wrote this, I was thinking more of a modern day mindset. But as Mags pointed out, things were so different then, we can hardly imagine it. I remember seeing a television program about unmarried women in Ireland whose children were removed from them and given up for adoption. They were speaking out about it for the first time, having kept the baby a secret all these years, even from the men they subsequently married. It made me very sad and angry to think of all the women over the years who have been denied choice - either because they were literally forced to part with children or, as Mags said, the ducks were all lined up. . . Sarah At 8:17 PM -0700 02/02/2003, sl.m@shaw.ca wrote: >That's what I meant when I said it ends up being something in your >mind. Something caused her to believe she couldn't do it, and maybe >she was right about herself, or she made it right, who knows? You open my heart, you do. Yes you do. - JM Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 2 Feb 2003 23:30:11 -0500 (EST) From: "walterphil" Subject: new joni & vinyl yes of course there can never be another joni... and while i can't say i'm in love with pj harvey (not enough lilt or melody for me) i wholeheartedly agree with annie lennox. constantly entertainingly beautiful and always changing i also agree with someone's assesment of alanis (but shes got a long way to go) 2 more i'd like to add: chrissie hynde (she can be every bit as touching/complex/melodic and smart) as our joni (and her last cd plays a heck of a lot better than travelog) also suzanne vega not the best voice but she makes up for it in opriginality and heart and soul thread #2 the vinyl issue am i the only one that thinks cds are too long and numbing? how i miss the old days of a side 1 and side 2 (and i've never heard it adressed anywhere) doesnt anyone miss the city side/sea side chapters of song to a seagull? doesnt anyone think its exciting to end a side with hejira and start another with sharon? these subtlties are totally lost now with cds. and while i don't agree that ticks and pops add much i've always kept my lps meticulously clean and they still soung GREAT (i have all of joni on vinyl thru chalk mark) and yes, vinyl does sound warmer and better. at least on hissing and hejira. and court and spark. they digitised those poor things to death. what they always strip out on those remixed cds IS THE SOUND OF THE STUDIO. and sometimes the cohesion of each track as a whole. they just love to take out any echo or reverb. lastly what about the freakin art of the jackets? and the lyrics? the beautiful photos on hejira & don juan the inner gatefilds of roses and hissing all lost on those crummy tissue paper thin cd booklets. yuck thanks for listening xxx walt The most personalized portal on the Web! ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 2 Feb 2003 22:32:05 -0600 From: "Mary E. Pitassi" Subject: RE: Fave Joni Lines (Magdalene Laundries) Sarah wrote, about Joni turning to Catholic nuns before giving birth to Kilauren: "I'm guessing wildly here, because I have no idea, but it wouldn't surprise me. There may even have been an element of self-punishment in it: I'm not good enough, I'll give the baby to people who will know I'm not good enough etc. Odd ideas can lodge in young girls' minds with surprising ferocity, and they often come out in the first flush of a pregnancy - feelings of self-disgust, low self-esteem, self-hatred, lack of self-definition. For that reason, it's important to keep young girls (boys too, but for other reasons) away from people who will make them feel inadequate or inferior - and sadly, the Catholic Church has a reputation for excelling in those areas. And Kakki wrote: I think Joni might have a love/hate relationship with those old-world nuns she was exposed to and also, I think, when she was in the hospital long-term with polio as a child. Why did she turn to them again when she was pregnant?" Me now: I'm basing this on a memory of an old article (maybe in Vogue, circa August, 1995, which was one of the very first times Joni spoke of this experience publicly?). And, as I recall it, the article discussed the birth taking place in a Catholic hospital, not a home, although I could be wrong--it's been a while. However, whatever the exact location, I never got the impression that Joni had much of a choice in the matter, or that she was somehow trying to punish herself. Why did she go to the nuns? She was young, pregnant, in desperate poverty--and they were there. It may have been as simple as that. I don't know what social services were available in Toronto then. But my clear sense from various interviews I've read by Joni on this subject over the years is that either she didn't know what government or other assistance was available to her, or that, truly, nothing was. Mary P. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 03 Feb 2003 00:38:18 -0500 From: dsk Subject: Joni & the Catholic Church [was Fave Joni Lines] (Some RC) sl.m@shaw.ca wrote: > > I suppose in going to the nuns, you go to what you know, even if you > despise it. Maybe they were the ones who put the sense of > worthlessness into her in the first place. Oh, please, that's giving way too much power to a group of people Joni had direct experiences with twice in her life. Not ALL nuns are like the ones in Magdalene Laundries. It just may be that she had some GOOD experiences with some of the nuns when she was hospitalized with polio. At the time of Kilauren's birth, Catholic services may have been the only or at least the most extensive "social services" available, and if Joni gave birth in a Catholic hospital (very likely since she had no way to pay for her healthcare; I'm assuming the Canadian healthcare-for-all system was not yet in place), then that would easily lead to the rest of the Catholic network, such as adoption services. I doubt that nuns were the only people suggesting that Joni's baby be adopted. As Mags has said, the entire society then was unwilling to acknowledge, much less assist, unwed mothers. Religious institutions do not exist separately from the society they're in. It was an uptight time in every way, throughout society. In general Joni's negative comments regarding the church are limited to specific people doing specific "unworthy of the ideals they express" things rather than dismissing the entire Church, which is very open-minded of her. It's obvious from some of the messages here lately just how easy and acceptable it is for some people, especially non-Catholics, to dismiss the entire Church. Joni doesn't do that. Off the top of my head I recall these positive specifically Catholic references: "in my blood like holy wine" "it takes a heart like Mary's these days when your man gets weak" "Rhine wine Milk of the Madonna Clandestine" "in the church they light the candles and the wax roles down like tears there is the hope and the hopelessness I've witnessed thirty years" Note that she does say HOPE along with the hopelessness. > ... it's important to keep young girls > (boys too, but for other reasons) away from people who will make them > feel inadequate or inferior - and sadly, the Catholic Church has a > reputation for excelling in those areas. This is a very ugly generalization. I get the impression that you don't even have any personal stories to tell about this. The Church excelled in many areas, including setting up the first health care system in the U.S. and probably Canada, too, as well as the first and still most extensive educational system, again my guess would be in both countries. Catholic nuns and priests were the people willing to assist the poorest, neediest, most marginalized people before (and sometimes even after) government agencies were established. The entire story of the Catholic Church is not the abhorrent behavior of the Magdalene Laundries nuns or the relatively few pedophile priests. To dismiss the good works of thousands, even millions, of other people is bigoted and ignorant in my opinion. Painting the Church (or any group) with one big sloppy disdainful dismissive brush, no, I can't go for that. Debra Shea ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Feb 2003 02:49:34 -0300 From: "Wally Kairuz" Subject: RE: Joni & the Catholic Church milk of the madonna is a kind of white wine from the rhine region. it is really called liebfraumilch in german but i guess joni couldn't find a rhyme for THAT. but i agree with you, debra. i don't think joni has been aiming at catholics in general but at pharisees, whatever their religion. wallyK ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 03 Feb 2003 00:55:09 -0500 From: "Blair Fraipont" Subject: Re: CD vs. Vinyl (Joni) I have found that the quality of Songs to A Seagull sounds alot clearer and not as muddy as on Vinyl. Give it that my Vinyl copy is quite old and a bit tattered. There was some interview with Joni about the sound on that album and something about how it was recorded (i.e. format). But STAS does sound better on cd, I must admit. I have found all of her albums on vinyl up to NIght Ride HOme. I searched for Turbulent INdigo and alas and alack it was not to be found. SO, I suppose my collection stops there. The main reason I keep the vinyl is for the artwork, especially the MIngus album. BLair NP: "LIttle ONE" BECK _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 03 Feb 2003 01:33:10 -0500 From: dsk Subject: Re: Fave Joni Lines (Magdalene Laundries) "Mary E. Pitassi" wrote: > > Me now: I'm basing this on a memory of an old article (maybe in Vogue, circa > August, 1995, which was one of the very first times Joni spoke of this > experience publicly?). And, as I recall it, the article discussed the birth > taking place in a Catholic hospital, not a home, although I could be > wrong--it's been a while. I recall reading something from a person who'd been Joni's neighbor at the time she was pregnant, and can't remember now if it was an article or someone posting to the list. It described Joni being in poor health, and isolated, and penniless, and the person giving Joni oranges that she was incredibly grateful for. Does anyone else remember reading that? It was so moving, thinking of Joni in such a vulnerable situation. > I don't know what social services were available in Toronto then. But my > clear sense from various interviews I've read by Joni on this subject over the > years is that either she didn't know what government or other assistance was > available to her, or that, truly, nothing was. I think the entire government-run social service network is relatively new. Before all the moving around people here did after World War II, most people were part of extended families and that was the main social support system. Debra Shea ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 03 Feb 2003 01:52:21 -0500 From: dsk Subject: Re: Joni & the Catholic Church Wally Kairuz wrote: > > milk of the madonna is a kind of white wine from the rhine region. it is > really called liebfraumilch in german but i guess joni couldn't find a rhyme > for THAT. I remember that wine! Blue Nun was one of the most popular when I was in college. Yes, that was wonderful wine. Sweet (if I'm recalling correctly) and not too expensive. It never made me sick the way cheap red wine did; one night with my cheek on the suddenly comfortable cool tile of the bathroom floor was enough to end my relationship with red wine, at least the big-jug kind. > but i agree with you, debra. i don't think joni has been aiming at > catholics in general but at pharisees, whatever their religion. Yes, her specific criticisms have never bothered me. Along with doing good works, the Catholic Church as an organization and particular people within it have done some appalling things that must be criticized, with the hope that it results in positive change. Debra Shea ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 03 Feb 2003 02:05:58 -0500 From: ljirvin@jmdl.com Subject: Today in History: February 3 1966: Joni was the opening act for blues singer Jesse Fuller at the Chess Mate in Detroit. 1973: The single "You Turn Me On, I'm a Radio" peaks at #25 in the US. 1974: Joni performed at Barton Hall on the campus of Cornell University in Ithaca, New York, along with Tom Scott and the LA Express. More info: http://www.jmdl.com/articles/view.cfm?id=137 1995: Joni appeared on NBC-TV's 'The Tonight Show" - her first TV appearance, by her recollection, since the "stormy Cash Show" in 1970. More info: http://www.jonimitchell.com/Leno95.html - ---- For a comprehensive reference to Joni's appearances, consult Joni Mitchell ~ A Chronology of Appearances: http://www.jonimitchell.com/appearances.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 03 Feb 2003 02:05:58 -0500 From: ljirvin@jmdl.com Subject: Today's Library Links: February 3 On February 3 the following items were published: 1974: "Insight from Inside Joni Mitchell" - Los Angeles Times (Review - Album) http://www.jmdl.com/articles/view.cfm?id=578 1995: "A benefit accompli" - Entertainment Weekly (Review - Appearance) http://www.jmdl.com/articles/view.cfm?id=792 ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 2 Feb 2003 23:14:01 -0800 From: "kakki" Subject: Re: Fave Joni Lines (Magdalene Laundries) Mary wrote: > Me now: I'm basing this on a memory of an old article (maybe in Vogue, circa > August, 1995, which was one of the very first times Joni spoke of this > experience publicly?). And, as I recall it, the article discussed the birth > taking place in a Catholic hospital, not a home, although I could be > wrong--it's been a while. You are right - I thought she had been in awhile because she had commented on how the unwed mothers were treated and it sounded like she was in for a time. She did stay in a Catholic charity hospital almost two weeks as a result of complications. She has spoken about this in a few articles - the one I recalled is from the L.A. Times here http://www.jmdl.com/articles/view.cfm?id=83 In this article, she also says that it was the adoption agency, and not the nuns who told her to give the back up quickly so it would be more "adoptable." > However, whatever the exact location, I never got the impression that Joni had > much of a choice in the matter, or that she was somehow trying to punish > herself. Why did she go to the nuns? She was young, pregnant, in desperate > poverty--and they were there. It may have been as simple as that. Yes, that is kind of my take on it, as opposed to the implication that she was *forced* into a Magdalene Laundries situation. Also, Joni was not raised a Catholic, so the premise that she may have had some kind of a lifelong sense of shame and self-loathing from them doesn't add up to me. Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 2 Feb 2003 23:17:02 -0800 From: "kakki" Subject: Re: Joni & the Catholic Church Wally wrote: > but i agree with you, debra. i don't think joni has been aiming at > catholics in general but at pharisees, whatever their religion. And I agree with both of you, every word. She skewers the pharisees brilliantly. Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 2 Feb 2003 23:18:58 -0800 From: "kakki" Subject: Re: Fave Joni Lines (Magdalene Laundries) Ack, I meant give the baby up. Long weekend... > In this article, she also says that it was the adoption agency, and not the nuns who told her to give the > back up quickly so it would be more "adoptable." ------------------------------ End of onlyJMDL Digest V2003 #40 ******************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she? (http://www.siquomb.com/siquomb.cfm)