From: les@jmdl.com (onlyJMDL Digest) To: onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Subject: onlyJMDL Digest V2003 #31 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/onlyjoni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com Unsubscribe: mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe onlyJMDL Digest Monday, January 27 2003 Volume 2003 : Number 031 Sign up now for JoniFest 2003! http://www.jonifest.com ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- surroundSound [Ron Greer ] Joni's saga on french radio ["Laurent Olszer" ] Re: JMDL Digest V2003 #63 [MARBOLI79@aol.com] Norah Jones [Steve Dulson ] re: Bob's epiphany "my old man"...and "for free" ["Donna Binkley" ] re:Bob's epiphany "my old man"...and "for free" ["Sarah Cartwright" ] re:Bob's epiphany "my old man"...and "for free" ["Donna Binkley" ] Gays' interest in Joni ["Jim Leonard" ] RE: Gays' interest in Joni ["Jerry Notaro" ] Yvette in English [Bruce Kimerer ] Re: Yvette in English [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] RE: Gays' interest in Joni ["Lori Fye" ] Re: Gays' interest in Joni [Chris Marshall ] Re: Gays' interest in Joni [Little Bird ] Re: Gays' interest in Joni [Little Bird ] "Concrete concentration camp..." [Little Bird ] Re: Gays' interest in Joni ["Stephen Toogood" ] Re: JMDL Digest V2003 #66 [DrSpine7@aol.com] Re: Gay's interest in Joni ["Jim Leonard" ] RE: Gays' interest in Joni [sl.m@shaw.ca] Re: JMDL Digest V2003 #63 [Catherine McKay ] please [vince ] Joni sings Gershwin [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] David Crosby-CPR concert (VLJC) [FMYFL@aol.com] Re: please now Joni sings "Summertime" [Catherine McKay ] Re: Joni sings Gershwin [Little Bird ] Fwd: David Crosby-CPR concert (VLJC) [MINGSDANCE@aol.com] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 14:45:00 +0200 From: Ron Greer Subject: surroundSound hi >>>>>Randy Wrote >>>>>Not to mention 5 speakers and a sub ain't cheap, either. And a what is the general opinion of surround sound???? when i upgraded my hi fi about a year ago, i did the rounds of the surround sound demoes. it just didnt work for me - stray bits of music coming from behind me where it shouldnt be. not to mention that given my limited budget i could get a reasonable stereo system for the price of what (to my ears anyway) was a pretty crappy surround sound system. interesting part was the salespeoples response. generally they started to take an interest when i told them my opinion of their system & asked if they had any decent stereo stuff. i really got the impression in more than one shop that surround is a gimmick & stereo is still the answer for music. it doesnt even work for me for movies. watching a picture on a tv screen in front of you while sound comes from around & behind you just confused the heck out of me. its different in a movie house where at least the picture is big enough that you can get kinda lost in it. ron npimh - listen, strains of benny goodman coming through the rear speakers!!!!! ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 14:24:28 -0000 From: "Laurent Olszer" Subject: Joni's saga on french radio The famous dj Georges Lang, the french equivalent of Wolfman Jack IMO, will be broadcasting a Joni saga next saturday on RTL between midnight and 2 am. He's been playing good music on RTL for 30 years, and lately has been playing T. on his daily night program a lot. The sagas always include major songs, history and direct artists' quotes. RTL can be received in benelux countries and perhaps in Germany too. Unrelated: a dear friend of mine is looking to swap his Paris apartment (2 rooms?) for one in the U.S. for 2 weeks in late july/August. Anybody interested email me off list and I'll put you in touch with him. He's a very dependable fellow who can be trusted 100%. Laurent ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 10:49:31 EST From: MARBOLI79@aol.com Subject: Re: JMDL Digest V2003 #63 JONI MITCHELL ? C'EST VRAIMENT DE LA MERDE !!! ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 08:19:42 -0800 From: Steve Dulson Subject: Norah Jones Kakki has probably beaten me to it (I'm on Digest) but the LA Times ran a big article on Norah Jones yesterday. When asked to come up with her top 5 favorite artists she named ten - including our Joan. - -- ######################################################## Steve Dulson Costa Mesa CA steve@psitech.com "The Tinker's Own" http://www.tinkersown.com "The Living Tradition Concert Series" http://www.thelivingtradition.org/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 10:37:35 -0600 From: "Donna Binkley" Subject: re: Bob's epiphany "my old man"...and "for free" >>> "mia ortlieb" 01/26/03 12:15PM >>> Bob, thanks for sharing your experience of learning to play "My Old Man" on the piano. That song is amazing and those lyrics- how do you top "the bed's too big, the frying pan's too wide" ? Bob, I'd love to learn "My Old Man" on the piano. Would you or anyone else out there have that sheet music or be able to share some chords with me? Thanks. Donna from Tx _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail This message has been scanned by the E250. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 10:46:10 -0600 From: "J.David Sapp" Subject: sundance film festival I remember that Joni and Allison Anders wanted to show the T'log documentary at this years Sundance. Well I searched the Sundance site and the film is not being shown. Too bad. peace, david ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 17:37:47 +0000 From: "Sarah Cartwright" Subject: re:Bob's epiphany "my old man"...and "for free" Totally agree on your praise for Howard's 'For Free' . I would recommend his rendition of 'Blue' aswell - that is really beautiful and is a real pleasure to play. Another JMDLer very kindly sent me the piano sheet music for a few of FTR favourites like Let the Wind Carry Me, Judgement of Moon and Stars which I would be happy to pass on to you if you are interested in playing them too - so much better than the arrangements in the Joni Mitchell Anthology which I wouldn't recommend you buy ( but if you're interested again I would be happy to copy some for you!) I love playing Joni on the piano- I just wish I could get my guitar strumming up to some kind of recognisable sounds aswell!!! best wishes sarah - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. More info here. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 12:13:25 -0600 From: "J.David Sapp" Subject: re: When did she stop? now Kyle Eastwood Well its a huge hit with me - I adore it. NP - Kyle Eastwood. I haven't listened to this is some time. I am really noticing some striking similarities to the T'log arrangements - I'm not a musician so I don't know how to explain it. But I guess Klein's production on T'log was more influential than I assumed (Klein produced Kyle Eastwood). Give it a listen see what you think. peace, david ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 10:12:33 -0800 From: "Russell Bowden" Subject: THE JC THANG AGAIN. SJC It seems that a lot of NJC is not being labeled as such. As I am a subscriber to JC only...having to wallow through posts dealing with transexualism...or whatever politically correct tag is has this month...as well as long posts having nothing to do with Joni is very irritating...Before you blast me as an anti-transexual..cool your jets..I've lived in SF for many years and have had a lot of contact with many trannies. I just feel that this JONI MITCHELL DISCUSSION LIST is being watered down by a lot of irrelevant posts that have nothing to do with our Subject. Let's get back to some semblance of a garden, gang. Love, Coco Nutz ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 12:23:43 -0600 From: "Donna Binkley" Subject: re:Bob's epiphany "my old man"...and "for free" music for a few of FTR favourites like Let the Wind Carry Me, Judgement of Moon and Stars which I would be happy to pass on to you if you are interested in playing them too - so much better than the arrangements in the Joni Mitchell Anthology which I wouldn't recommend you buy ( but if you're interested again I would be happy to copy some for you!) Hi Sarah, I would be interested in anything you have from FTR if you wouldn't mind. Thanks very much. Donna - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. More info here. This message has been scanned by the E250. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 11:35:47 -0800 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: Joni & Michael Leunig (only small JC) lovely! thanks for this link john, i loved this one: 'let it go let it out let it all unravel let it free & it can be a path on which to travel' >>Leunig is one of Australias Living National Treasures. http://members.ozemail.com.au/~paulma/leunig.htm. There is also an appreciation web site at http://www.curlyflat.net/ though not it seems a great many images.<< ******************************************** Kate Bennett: www.katebennett.com Sponsored by Polysonics/Atlantis Sound Labs Over the Moon- "bringing the melancholy world of twilight to life almost like magic" All Music Guide ******************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 13:45:38 -0700 From: sl.m@shaw.ca Subject: Good article on free will From today's National Post Scientists and philosophers have long pondered the problem of free will: Do we consciously choose our actions -- or is our behaviour dictated by our environment, our genes and myriad other factors that rarely spill over into our conscious minds? Such speculation is now giving way to hard data, with experimental psychology finally equipped to probe the differences between the conscious and the unconscious mind. Harvard psychologist Daniel Wegner argues that free will "is a construction ... something the mind builds in order to keep track of what it's doing" -- an idea he explores in detail in his book The Illusion of Conscious Will. Consciousness, he says, frequently "isn't the engine on the train." http://www.nationalpost.com/search/site/story.asp?id=D74C0BFF-5F70-4E01-9AAF-445EE6D2969B ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 15:05:30 -0700 From: sl.m@shaw.ca Subject: For the Joni Only List I've left NJC off this post deliberately because it's intended for the Joni-only people. I only joined this list a couple of months ago so I don't know the history, but as I understand it, this is a discussion list for people who love Joni Mitchell. It doesn't appear to be a list for a discussion of Joni Mitchell exclusively. But for the benefit of those who want to do that, people are requested to put NJC in the subject line if their posts are not about Joni Mitchell. The NJC posts are very wide-ranging in subject matter and are virtually always written from an incredibly intelligent and interesting point of view. When people disagree, they (usually!) do it politely, with arguments to back up their positions rather than personal abuse. I don't think I've ever seen an internet community so able to defend its positions, and with such diverse interests and tastes - but in fact, this is exactly what I'd expect from Joni Mitchell fans, which is why this list is such a great idea. From that point of view, this has to be one of the best lists in existence. The only real hostility I've seen on this list has been in posts from Joni-only people, pissed off because someone forgot to put NJC in the subject line. Please - this isn't a big deal! Most people remember to write NJC most of the time. Please bear in mind that you don't SEE the overwhelming majority of the NJC posts, so you're not able to judge how tiny the percentage is that mistakenly ends up in your inbox. Surely these can simply be deleted. Or, if you're on the digest, you can quickly scroll past them. Even when NJC has been left off by accident, people are pretty good about using descriptive subject lines, so you can usually tell without opening the email that is has no Joni content. How many seconds, literally, of your week is taken up deleting emails that should have been labelled NJC? Please allow those of us who want to discuss other issues to do so, and we will try VERY HARD to remember to put NJC in the subject line every time. But please don't respond in such a hostile way when we forget. We are only human! Sarah ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 13:20:04 -0800 From: "Lori Fye" Subject: Re: For the Joni Only List To add a little something to what Sarah wrote ... If you find that you need a quick and easy way to blow off most of the NJC posts, check out http://www.smoe.org/lists/onlyjoni/, where you can find the latest "Joni-only" digest (and for that matter, ALL such digests since April 1999). Lori ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 16:27:10 -0500 From: "Jim Leonard" Subject: Gays' interest in Joni Hi JMDLers, Please don't flame me for asking this. I'm not homophobic (I swear it!), and I mean to create no controversy or ill will with anyone. I just have an honest question and am genuinely interested in receiving an answer (on list, please). As a bit of background, I've been subscribed to this list - off and on - for about three years now, and have been an unwavering Joni fanatic since 1968, when I bought "Clouds" (and then STAS, hot on its heels) as a 16-year old singer/guitarist, weaned on the British Invasion, Dylan, the Byrds, etc. When I first subscribed to the JMDL in 2000, upon getting my first computer, I was taken aback by how many gay people are on the list, and by how central gay issues are to the content of the list. This hasn't come up in my time here, and I'd find it to be interesting "JC" to know why it is that Joni has such a large gay following - or, even, a predominantly gay following, if one is to judge by the demographics of those who post regularly to the JMDL. Joni's lyrics and her lifestyle have always been exuberantly blatant in their heterosexuality - celebratory, in fact. I guess that's why I'm mystified. Other heterosexual songwriters of Joni's generation have made an equally profound impact and are widely considered to be Joni's equals (of those, I'd liken Paul Simon's artistry most to Joni's) - so it can't be just her songs and her overall musicianship that have attracted such a large gay following, can it? Those artists' discussion lists (Dylan, Van Morrison, Neil Young, Paul Simon, etc.) don't have any "GC" (gay content). Does it, therefore, have to do with the fact she is a woman? If so, why would that be, especially given that she is such an in-your-face heterosexual? Thanks! Kind replies only please. One reply will do if it sums things up for everyone. :-) Best, Jim ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 16:44:19 -0500 From: "Jerry Notaro" Subject: RE: Gays' interest in Joni Really a wonderful question Jim. And even more interesting is that she has such a large gay AND lesbian following. That is pretty rare. We all know the usual gay male icons. But they rarely attract a lesbian following. With Joni, I would say it is her intelligence, her perseverance, her beauty, her originality, her stunning talent. I guess that was what attracted EVERYONE to her. I find, though, that Joni fans all over the world share these interests in her more than they share any particular sexuality. Jerry - -----Original Message----- From: owner-joni@jmdl.com [mailto:owner-joni@jmdl.com]On Behalf Of Jim Leonard Sent: Monday, January 27, 2003 4:27 PM To: Joni List Subject: Gays' interest in Joni Hi JMDLers, Please don't flame me for asking this. I'm not homophobic (I swear it!), and I mean to create no controversy or ill will with anyone. I just have an honest question and am genuinely interested in receiving an answer (on list, please). As a bit of background, I've been subscribed to this list - off and on - for about three years now, and have been an unwavering Joni fanatic since 1968, when I bought "Clouds" (and then STAS, hot on its heels) as a 16-year old singer/guitarist, weaned on the British Invasion, Dylan, the Byrds, etc. When I first subscribed to the JMDL in 2000, upon getting my first computer, I was taken aback by how many gay people are on the list, and by how central gay issues are to the content of the list. This hasn't come up in my time here, and I'd find it to be interesting "JC" to know why it is that Joni has such a large gay following - or, even, a predominantly gay following, if one is to judge by the demographics of those who post regularly to the JMDL. Joni's lyrics and her lifestyle have always been exuberantly blatant in their heterosexuality - celebratory, in fact. I guess that's why I'm mystified. Other heterosexual songwriters of Joni's generation have made an equally profound impact and are widely considered to be Joni's equals (of those, I'd liken Paul Simon's artistry most to Joni's) - so it can't be just her songs and her overall musicianship that have attracted such a large gay following, can it? Those artists' discussion lists (Dylan, Van Morrison, Neil Young, Paul Simon, etc.) don't have any "GC" (gay content). Does it, therefore, have to do with the fact she is a woman? If so, why would that be, especially given that she is such an in-your-face heterosexual? Thanks! Kind replies only please. One reply will do if it sums things up for everyone. :-) Best, Jim ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 16:50:01 -0500 From: Bruce Kimerer Subject: Yvette in English The recent posts about David Crosby have made me wonder about the JM/DC collaboration "Yvette in English." Does anyone know who wrote which -- words/music (the music sounds kinda Crosby-like to me)? And how it came about? And are there any other JM/DC songs floating around out there? Crosby has always been one of the most interesting artists to me. His '71 solo album 'If I Could Only Remember My Name' is, to my ears, one of the very best from that period. The song Deja Vu is one of the high points from the original CSN/CSNY era. And the current work with CPR is real good too (certainly superior to that last CSNY reunion album). Bruce NP: DC - Cowboy Movie ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 17:00:46 -0500 From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: Yvette in English In a message dated 1/27/2003 4:50:01 PM Eastern Standard Time, kimerer@taconic.net writes: > The recent posts about David Crosby have made me wonder about the JM/DC > collaboration "Yvette in English." Does anyone know who wrote which -- > words/music (the music sounds kinda Crosby-like to me)? And how it came > about? And are there any other JM/DC songs floating around > out there? To paraphrase my understanding of the scenario, David wanted Joni to write some songs for him, or co-write with him...Joni was in a dry spell and not really interested or motivated, so David asked if he could fax her some lyrics and have her "school marm" on them, which he did. She pulled a Kratzman on him and marked up cliches and what not. Crosby of course then went on to record the song on his "Thousand Roads" CD, and it's very nice. As far as I know, that's the only Crosby-Mitchell composition that's out there. Bob, who LOVED the version of "Carry On" on that Superbowl commercial last night! NP: Lorraine Gervais, "Peel Me A Grape" ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 14:18:32 -0800 From: "Lori Fye" Subject: RE: Gays' interest in Joni Jim, I agree with Jerry; your question is indeed wonderful. I'm almost at a loss for words (a rare occurrence). The smart ass in me wants to seize upon Jerry's reply and say it's because gays and lesbians - at least the ones who appreciate Joni Mitchell - are wildly intelligent, perseverate, beautiful, original, and stunningly talented. But of course there's more to it than that. It could have something to do with Joni's "confessional" writing about love desired and lost, or that we identify with societal and particularly parental disapproval, a la "Let The Wind Carry Me": She don't like my kick pleat skirt She don't like my eyelids painted green She don't like me staying up late In my high-heeled shoes Living for that rock 'n' roll dancing scene Papa says "Leave the girl alone, mother She's looking like a movie queen" Of course these are universal topics, but I'm only half joking with the above lyrics. It could be that, regardless of Joni's "in your face" heterosexuality, she's also made it abundantly clear that she's non-judgmental and appreciates us "as is": Fuck it! Tonight I'm going dancing With the drag queens and the punks Gayboys with their pants so tight Out in the neon light Underneath the street light (the entirety of "Two Grey Rooms") Or ... It could be that it's simply that the people who belong to this amazing discussion list have always been so welcoming to most everyone's point of view, and the LGBT community within feels comfortable enough to post about their lives, as everyone should. Still considering, Lori ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 22:35:37 +0000 From: Chris Marshall Subject: Re: Gays' interest in Joni On Monday, Jan 27, 2003, at 21:27 Europe/London, Jim Leonard wrote: > I'd find it to be interesting "JC" to know why it is that Joni has > such a large gay following - or, even, a predominantly gay following, > if one > is to judge by the demographics of those who post regularly to the > JMDL. I have a theory about this one, which I've discussed with a few other JMDLers, and we've been broadly in agreement. I started listning to Joni with Hejira, DJRD and Hissing, followed by Court & Spark. At the same time, I'd not long (as in a few years ago) figured out that I was gay, and was putting myself through the wringer by managing to fall in love with a straight friend of mine. Except I didn't know that's what I was doing, but I was, regardless. Anyway, suffice to say, her music immediately appealed to me because of it's talk of love, and the fact that there were so many lyrics which resonated so strongly with my *feelings* at the time (and a few times since then, too). Fast forward a few years, and I know much more about who I am: I've spent an unhealthy amount of time navel-gazing, analyzing what's going on in my head, analyzing what I want out of life, analyzing my emotions, and so on. I've come to the conclusion that Joni appeals to a large amount of GLBT folk because many of these people have been through the same process, are going through it, or are aware that they should, and end up empathising so strongly with her lyrics. Anyone with me on this one? :) - --Chris Marshall chrisAThatstand.org (AIM: Chr15Marshall) "If you're ever lost, I'll beat the world to finding you" Stryngs, "Bobblehats and Beer", http://www.stryngs.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 15:12:08 -0800 (PST) From: Little Bird Subject: Re: Gays' interest in Joni I agree that it's a wonderful question to have asked, Jim. Her wide appeal to gay men and lesbians is something Joni herself has now acknowledged publicly. On a CBC television interview (Canada) she mentioned that gay men, blacks and women were the three largest demographics that her music seems to appeal to. These three groups make up the largest portion of her audience. As to why gay men (and lesbians) flock to Joni Mitchell, we can really only speculate and offer theories. I am gay and have loved Joni for her honesty, her joy, her recognition and articulation of sadness, her celebration of life and learning and her understanding and creation of art. These are not gay traits, they are human traits, and to say I like Joni BECAUSE I am gay would be totally misleading and incorrect. Having said that, I think gay men (I won't speak for the lesbians) have a shared history as far as emotional development is concerned. As mentioned above, there is HONESTY in Joni's music. Having to hide who you are for the ease of those around you is very trying and difficult and painful. Coming out of that socially-imposed prison is a wonderful feeling. Joni's outpourings of emotion mirror, more often than not, that same kind of emotional realization. Joni hates it when people call her lyrics "confessional" because it implies she has been hiding something for the greater good, but there is something confessional about them - admitting to feelings that she had previously not addressed. There's something about this theme that I think gay men identify with. I also said that I love Joni because of her expressions of joy and sadness. Gay men, no matter how well adjusted or happy, go through a period of time in their lives, maybe several periods, when they feel totally alienated from the rest of society. They feel utterly alone. Understand that society is 99.9% geared towards the comfort and pleasure of heterosexuals - from the movies at your local theatre to the ads on television, it's straight most of the time. Living on the fringes, one can get very sad, very dark, very moody, very angst-ridden, very lonely and feel like no one really understands. Joni articulates those emotions in her songs. She goes through them as a woman, but the simple fact that they are expressed in song acts as a lure to those who have experienced those emotions, gay men included. She also expresses the joy that comes from revelation and acceptance in love - abandon, hope, romance, happiness. Sailing out of the storm of self-conflict and self-denial is a wonderfully cleansing feeling and it IS happiness. It's like a rebirth. Of course there are gay men who hate Joni Mitchell, who can't stand her, who can't even bear to hear a single note from one of her songs - I know a few! Some gay men identify more strongly with the glitz and glamour of Barbra Streisand or Liza Minnelli. Not me, but a LOT of gay men do! So, there really is no rule or reason that we can apply to every gay man and every gay woman where a love for Joni Mitchell's music is concerned, or any other habits for that matter. Refer to the lines of "Borderline" to see what I mean. "every measure, every gage..." Basically, however, the majority of gay men find that female vocalists best articulate their feelings - at least that's been my experience. Every gay man I know has a vast collection of female artists and only a handful of male artists, myself included. Maybe this is because women tend to sing about men; maybe it's because gay men are more emotionally similar to women than straight men; maybe it's because the female voice is more expressive. There are no answers only theories. But I do thank you for asking it. - -Andrew Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 15:41:39 -0800 (PST) From: Little Bird Subject: Re: Gays' interest in Joni Just as an added bit of info, I have belonged to an Annie Lennox mailing list and a Bjork mailing list, both of which were teaming with gay men. I'm sure you'd find a similar case on a Barbra Streisand list, a Liza Minnelli list, a Judy Garland list. Just about any "legendary" female artist has a gay following, of this I am sure! - -Andrew Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 16:02:19 -0800 (PST) From: Little Bird Subject: "Concrete concentration camp..." This deserves a wider readership so apologies for not putting NJC in advance, but frankly, it needs to be read. On this day, 57 years ago, the Auschwitz-Birkenau death camp was liberated by the Russian army. Many view today as a day to commemorate the victims and survivors of the Holocaust. Delete it if you must. Auschwitz was the largest concentration camp complex in the history of the war and the largest site of genocide in documented history. An estimated 2,200,000 people were murdered there, most of them Jews and most of them between 1941 and 1945. There were five large gas chambers and crematoria that, when combined, had a daily killing capacity of 6,000 people a day. The Germans destroyed the gas chambers but their foundations remain in tact; one was reconstructed for the purposes of the on-site museum. In any case, I think this is a subject that warrants some reflection and some awareness. Tonight I'll think of those precious faces of those terrified children who have been stolen from time and I'll think of their poor mothers and fathers who could do nothing to stop the madness. Remember their names, imagine their smiling faces at birthday parties before the war, never forget they had memories and goals and dreams. Remember them. - -Andrew Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 23:59:57 -0000 From: "Stephen Toogood" Subject: Re: Gays' interest in Joni Yes Chris, that makes perfect sense to me. Joni's music seems to cover every type of emotion. Whatever sexuality; we all laugh and cry, and feel! STEVE "All these highs and lows" From: "Chris Marshall" > On Monday, Jan 27, 2003, at 21:27 Europe/London, Jim Leonard wrote: > > I'd find it to be interesting "JC" to know why it is that Joni has > > such a large gay following - or, even, a predominantly gay following, > > if one > > is to judge by the demographics of those who post regularly to the > > JMDL. > > I have a theory about this one, which I've discussed with a few > other JMDLers, and we've been broadly in agreement. > > I started listning to Joni with Hejira, DJRD and Hissing, > followed by Court & Spark. At the same time, I'd not long > (as in a few years ago) figured out that I was gay, and was > putting myself through the wringer by managing to fall in > love with a straight friend of mine. Except I didn't know > that's what I was doing, but I was, regardless. > > Anyway, suffice to say, her music immediately appealed to > me because of it's talk of love, and the fact that there > were so many lyrics which resonated so strongly with my > *feelings* at the time (and a few times since then, too). > > Fast forward a few years, and I know much more about who > I am: I've spent an unhealthy amount of time navel-gazing, > analyzing what's going on in my head, analyzing what I want > out of life, analyzing my emotions, and so on. I've come to > the conclusion that Joni appeals to a large amount of GLBT > folk because many of these people have been through the > same process, are going through it, or are aware that they > should, and end up empathising so strongly with her lyrics. > > Anyone with me on this one? :) > > --Chris Marshall > > chrisAThatstand.org (AIM: Chr15Marshall) > > "If you're ever lost, I'll beat the world to finding you" > Stryngs, "Bobblehats and Beer", http://www.stryngs.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 19:41:52 EST From: DrSpine7@aol.com Subject: Re: JMDL Digest V2003 #66 Could someone please tell me how to get off of this list? ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 19:52:12 -0500 From: "Jim Leonard" Subject: Re: Gay's interest in Joni Just a quick note to thank all the respondents to my question for your very thoughtful replies thus far. I get the Digest, and have just finished reading those which were not copied to me personally, like Lori's and Andrew's. I pull a 12-hour day (13-1/2, if you figure in my commute) as a Patient Care Technician in a hospital, without computer access, so my ability to post is almost nonexistent. I do catch up with the JMDL Digest as often as I can, however, either on days off or early in the morning with coffee before showering for work. I look forward to more of this discussion, should it continue. Again, thanks - for your compliments regarding the merits of the question, and for finding it thought-provoking and worthy of reply. It really has been something I've wondered about for a long time, and, thanks to you folks for sharing your insights and theories, I'm beginning to understand. Best, Jim ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 19:01:34 -0700 From: sl.m@shaw.ca Subject: RE: Gays' interest in Joni I've always thought women artists who become gay icons are loved for their broken hearts. They sing about unhappiness and tragedy, about the loss of love, and the loss of self to love. Gays may be particularly drawn to broken hearts because of the loneliness that a gay life can bring, as Colin and others on the list have been saying. And I think that people like Joni who've had tough times in life and in romance are more tolerant, more open to other people's feelings and more accepting of differences between people. As well as Joni Mitchell, I'm thinking of Annie Lennox as a gay icon, whose philosophy is similar to Joni's, although expressed very differently. For the Brits on the list, an unexpected gay icon in the UK was Bet, a barmaid in a pub in the soap opera Coronation Street. Overweight with dyed blonde big hair, too much make-up and too-tight clothes, she endured one tragic love affair after another, and was always let down at the end of them, with her black mascara tears coursing down her rouged cheeks, another night alone in the Rovers' Return. This tragic image seemed to appeal very much to Britain's gay community, and she was quickly adopted as a mascot. And another gay icon is Princess Diana, for similar reasons. Sarah From: "Lori Fye" It could have something to do with Joni's "confessional" writing about love desired and lost. . . ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 21:01:41 -0500 (EST) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: JMDL Digest V2003 #63 --- MARBOLI79@aol.com wrote: > JONI MITCHELL ? > C'EST VRAIMENT DE LA MERDE !!! a ton avis. Mais tu as tort. ===== Catherine Toronto ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 21:12:49 -0500 From: vince Subject: please Everyone, please respect the NJC tag. It is the covenant that we have made with one another. The Joni-only people have a right to be angry when it is abused. I got ripped yesterday for defending a poster who had Joni content (the paintings) in a post. However, out and out bashing of the Joni-only people or ignoring the community agreement just is not cool. So: here is some Joni content, a website I just found - http://www.robotwisdom.com/jorn/joni.html I never knew that Joni sang Gershwin's Summertime - Bob, Mul-man, my man, yo, dude, whadup, dawg, is that on a covers cd somewhere so i can get down with it? Vince ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 21:19:33 EST From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Joni sings Gershwin In a message dated 1/27/2003 9:13:11 PM Eastern Standard Time, revrvl@chartermi.net writes: > I never knew that Joni sang Gershwin's Summertime - Bob, Mul-man, my > man, yo, dude, whadup, dawg, is that on a covers cd somewhere so i can > get down with it? > It's commercially available dawg...on Herbie Hancock's cd "Gershwin's World". You can find it for pretty cheap these days, and it's well worth having. Besides Sunnertime, Joni turns in a nice sultry rendition of "The Man I Love" and even dedicates it to ME in the liner notes! (OK, so I made that part up...) The CD also features Stevie Wonder, Kathleen Battle, an of course Herbie's excellent playing. And she also sang Summertime in her "Day In The Garden" show in '98, and we have the soundboard recording of that. Sweet! Bob ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 21:45:24 EST From: FMYFL@aol.com Subject: David Crosby-CPR concert (VLJC) Sorry Joni-only people, this should have been NJC, but I thought since so many of you are fans of CSN&Y, you might be interested. My apologies if you're not. I was hoping my best friend and fellow JMDLer David Mingus was going to report on this first, but after the CPR concert, he's very disillusioned with David Crosby. Maybe he might add comments to my thoughts. Mingus knew the owner of the club where CPR was performing this past Saturday night, so our little group was not only given a front row table that butted against the stage, but we were allowed to show up at 4:00 when Crosby was arriving for the sound check. Both of us have been long time fans of Crosby, as most of you are. We were told by the owner of the club that there would be plenty of time to ask him questions and take photos. We did our research, and read and reread Wally B.'s interview with Crosby from '97. We just knew that Crosby respected and loved Joni's work. I must preface the rest of this story by saying that this "bar" was originally a Morrison's Cafeteria many years ago. After being vacant many years, there have been several bars that have come and gone. It is now called Club Neptunes, and the owner has something *different* every night. She has brought in some well known singers i.e. Janis Ian, and next month is Willy Nelson. Some nights the club is for hip hop dancing, and other nights might be some teenie bopper night. This is a very small place. It's more of a dance place, but they do set up tables in front of the stage for concerts. It says that the place holds 700 people, but I think that's really pushing it. After playing in some very nice and much larger venues, I don't think Crosby was very happy about the situation. Have any of you been in a bar in the daytime? Not a pretty sight. So for this, I will partially forgive Mr. Crosby for his *asshole* behavior. We watched and listened as CPR did their sound checks. Crosby definitely had an attitude with the band during practice. I was so surpassed when he treated the guitar player (Jeff Pevar) like crap. He was yelling at him that he wasn't singing loud enough over and over. He told him he might as well not sing at all. (Mingus has this verbal abuse recorded). Crosby soon returned to the bus out back, while the rest of the band continued with the sound check and just hung around. Crosby's fairly newly found son, James Raymond stopped by and chatted with Mingus, autographed his Woodstock poster and CD, and was just as sweet as he could be. (Must have got that from his Mother's side). Ming talked to him about Joni, and he's even visited the JM website before. Jeff Pevar even stopped by and was happy to chat and sign an autograph. We waited for a while for Crosby to return from the bus. Now, it wasn't as if Crosby was surrounded by dozens of fans. The club was closed to everyone except employees, plus Mingus, his nephew, and me. Mingus had a few questions he wanted to ask Crosby, plus he was going to give him one of his photos of Joni and the Travelogue CD. (I know, I know..........many artists wouldn't want to be approached with a gift recording from another artist, but we truly thought Crosby thought so highly of Joni). Ming introduced himself saying he was a big fan of his and he thanked him for *discovering* Joni and helping her with her career. He told Crosby that "Dawntreader" was getting rave reviews from her fans on T'log, and he presented him with his gifts (which Crosby received unceremoniously and quickly handed over to someone else). Mingus asked him if he could ask him a few questions, and Crosby said "Nah, I don't think so". It wasn't as if Ming was going to ask him only questions about Joni, but Crosby was pretty rude in my opinion. I was very intimidated, and as a certain jmdler told me last week "Crosby is not very approachable"...........but I thought the hell with it, I've been here all afternoon, so I'm going to at least introduce myself and thank him for what he's done for the music industry. Regretfully, I did. I said " Hi Mr. Crosby, I'm Jimmy Stewart and I want to thank you for all you've done for music". You'd have thought I was going to steal his wallet. He reluctantly shook my hand, and said a half assed thanks. Now for the good part. The concert started around 10:00. (the opening act was a girl named Twinkle Yochim (Paz you have to check her out......she has a FANTASTIC voice). Anyway, CPR came on and the SRO crowd went wild. Crosby quickly announced that this was not David Crosby, but CPR. This is where I was really shocked. I had not heard CPR before. They were awesome!!!! They played about 2 thirds of their music, and the rest was CSN songs. I was amazed that David still has such a great voice. When they sang any of the CSN songs, it was just like old times. Crosby, Pevar, and Raymond harmonized remarkably, and the crowd went wild. James Raymond has such a wonderful voice, and definitely inherited his dad's musical talents. Jeff Pevar really rocked on the guitar, and they all really seemed to enjoy themselves on stage. You could really tell how proud Crosby was of James. He smiled at him several times. This really helped all the negative feelings I had earlier in the day. The crowd was really appreciative, and I think Crosby was enjoying himself. He didn't talk too much, but at one point he was amusing when he was having to pull his pants up. He said "That's the problem when you're shaped like an avocado" I really enjoyed this concert, especially sitting 10 feet away. I got some great photos of Crosby & Pevar. Unfortunately, I didn't get many photos of his son James because his organ was in the way (no not that organ :~) )...........but all in all it was a fantastic concert. Who knows? Maybe Crosby was having a bad day earlier. I'd like to think so, but he was still a butthead! reporting from Ft. Myers, FL Jimmy ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 22:03:56 -0500 (EST) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: please now Joni sings "Summertime" --- vince wrote: > > I never knew that Joni sang Gershwin's Summertime - > Bob, Mul-man, my > man, yo, dude, whadup, dawg, is that on a covers cd > somewhere so i can > get down with it? Yo, Vinnie, wuzzup? Cate-Bob here. You can find Joni's version of "Summertime" on Herbie Hancock's CD "Gershwin's World." Dig it. ===== Catherine Toronto ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 19:25:02 -0800 From: "Lori Fye" Subject: Re: Joni sings Gershwin > And she also sang Summertime in her "Day In The Garden" show in '98, > and we have the soundboard recording of that. Sweet! I was just about to mention that recording ... it is indeed sweet. VERY. It's a great memory for me too, as I was THERE when Joni sang it!! (Thank you once more to that quiet man in the front of the audience, all wired for sound - you know who you are.) Lori ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 19:51:36 -0800 (PST) From: Little Bird Subject: Re: Joni sings Gershwin I happened upon this album quite accidentally. A friend of mine had it playing at a dinner party and I instantly recognized Joni's voice when "The Man I Love" came on. I ran out and bought the record a few days later and love just about every track. "Summertime" is brilliant! It goes wonderfully with lemonade on a sunny porch! - -Andrew Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 23:08:20 EST From: MINGSDANCE@aol.com Subject: Fwd: David Crosby-CPR concert (VLJC) Return-path: From: FMYFL@aol.com Full-name: FMY FL Message-ID: <156.1af4cdbe.2b6748c4@aol.com> Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 21:45:24 EST Subject: David Crosby-CPR concert (VLJC) To: joni@smoe.org, MINGSDANCE@aol.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Mailer: AOL 8.0 for Windows US sub 230 X-Converted-To-Plain-Text: from multipart/alternative by demime 0.97c X-Converted-To-Plain-Text: Alternative section used was text/plain Sorry Joni-only people, this should have been NJC, but I thought since so many of you are fans of CSN&Y, you might be interested. My apologies if you're not. I was hoping my best friend and fellow JMDLer David Mingus was going to report on this first, but after the CPR concert, he's very disillusioned with David Crosby. Maybe he might add comments to my thoughts. Mingus knew the owner of the club where CPR was performing this past Saturday night, so our little group was not only given a front row table that butted against the stage, but we were allowed to show up at 4:00 when Crosby was arriving for the sound check. Both of us have been long time fans of Crosby, as most of you are. We were told by the owner of the club that there would be plenty of time to ask him questions and take photos. We did our research, and read and reread Wally B.'s interview with Crosby from '97. We just knew that Crosby respected and loved Joni's work. I must preface the rest of this story by saying that this "bar" was originally a Morrison's Cafeteria many years ago. After being vacant many years, there have been several bars that have come and gone. It is now called Club Neptunes, and the owner has something *different* every night. She has brought in some well known singers i.e. Janis Ian, and next month is Willy Nelson. Some nights the club is for hip hop dancing, and other nights might be some teenie bopper night. This is a very small place. It's more of a dance place, but they do set up tables in front of the stage for concerts. It says that the place holds 700 people, but I think that's really pushing it. After playing in some very nice and much larger venues, I don't think Crosby was very happy about the situation. Have any of you been in a bar in the daytime? Not a pretty sight. So for this, I will partially forgive Mr. Crosby for his *asshole* behavior. We watched and listened as CPR did their sound checks. Crosby definitely had an attitude with the band during practice. I was so surpassed when he treated the guitar player (Jeff Pevar) like crap. He was yelling at him that he wasn't singing loud enough over and over. He told him he might as well not sing at all. (Mingus has this verbal abuse recorded). Crosby soon returned to the bus out back, while the rest of the band continued with the sound check and just hung around. Crosby's fairly newly found son, James Raymond stopped by and chatted with Mingus, autographed his Woodstock poster and CD, and was just as sweet as he could be. (Must have got that from his Mother's side). Ming talked to him about Joni, and he's even visited the JM website before. Jeff Pevar even stopped by and was happy to chat and sign an autograph. We waited for a while for Crosby to return from the bus. Now, it wasn't as if Crosby was surrounded by dozens of fans. The club was closed to everyone except employees, plus Mingus, his nephew, and me. Mingus had a few questions he wanted to ask Crosby, plus he was going to give him one of his photos of Joni and the Travelogue CD. (I know, I know..........many artists wouldn't want to be approached with a gift recording from another artist, but we truly thought Crosby thought so highly of Joni). Ming introduced himself saying he was a big fan of his and he thanked him for *discovering* Joni and helping her with her career. He told Crosby that "Dawntreader" was getting rave reviews from her fans on T'log, and he presented him with his gifts (which Crosby received unceremoniously and quickly handed over to someone else). Mingus asked him if he could ask him a few questions, and Crosby said "Nah, I don't think so". It wasn't as if Ming was going to ask him only questions about Joni, but Crosby was pretty rude in my opinion. I was very intimidated, and as a certain jmdler told me last week "Crosby is not very approachable"...........but I thought the hell with it, I've been here all afternoon, so I'm going to at least introduce myself and thank him for what he's done for the music industry. Regretfully, I did. I said " Hi Mr. Crosby, I'm Jimmy Stewart and I want to thank you for all you've done for music". You'd have thought I was going to steal his wallet. He reluctantly shook my hand, and said a half assed thanks. Now for the good part. The concert started around 10:00. (the opening act was a girl named Twinkle Yochim (Paz you have to check her out......she has a FANTASTIC voice). Anyway, CPR came on and the SRO crowd went wild. Crosby quickly announced that this was not David Crosby, but CPR. This is where I was really shocked. I had not heard CPR before. They were awesome!!!! They played about 2 thirds of their music, and the rest was CSN songs. I was amazed that David still has such a great voice. When they sang any of the CSN songs, it was just like old times. Crosby, Pevar, and Raymond harmonized remarkably, and the crowd went wild. James Raymond has such a wonderful voice, and definitely inherited his dad's musical talents. Jeff Pevar really rocked on the guitar, and they all really seemed to enjoy themselves on stage. You could really tell how proud Crosby was of James. He smiled at him several times. This really helped all the negative feelings I had earlier in the day. The crowd was really appreciative, and I think Crosby was enjoying himself. He didn't talk too much, but at one point he was amusing when he was having to pull his pants up. He said "That's the problem when you're shaped like an avocado" I really enjoyed this concert, especially sitting 10 feet away. I got some great photos of Crosby & Pevar. Unfortunately, I didn't get many photos of his son James because his organ was in the way (no not that organ :~) )...........but all in all it was a fantastic concert. Who knows? Maybe Crosby was having a bad day earlier. I'd like to think so, but he was still a butthead! reporting from Ft. Myers, FL Jimmy ------------------------------ End of onlyJMDL Digest V2003 #31 ******************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she? (http://www.siquomb.com/siquomb.cfm)