From: les@jmdl.com (onlyJMDL Digest) To: onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Subject: onlyJMDL Digest V2003 #3 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/onlyjoni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com Unsubscribe: mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe onlyJMDL Digest Sunday, January 5 2003 Volume 2003 : Number 003 Sign up now for JoniFest 2003! http://www.jonifest.com ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Chinese cafe lyrics etc... [=?iso-8859-1?q?Joseph=20Francis?= ] As the weekend turns...(Covers Giveaway reminder) [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: Rhymin' Joni, Songs of the Day and calling Paris [Bobsart48@aol.com] Two Weeks Notice ["janine sherman" ] Re: production & arrangements [arid@geneva-link.ch] The Britons with the best teeth ["mike pritchard" ] Missing you all-SJC [RobSher50@aol.com] Kenny Lattimore does "River" [RobSher50@aol.com] Re: JMDL Digest V2003 #2 leslie Ash [Chorando6@aol.com] Re: The first to make "world music"? [Randy Remote Subject: Chinese cafe lyrics etc... Sorry if this has been mentioned before (it probably has seeing I am new to the list) but anyway... I was listening to Chinese Cafe/Unchained Melody today, and I noticed that in the second verse she sings "you give your love so sweetly", which is actually the second line from the Carol King song "Will You Still Love Me Tomorrow" made famous by The Shirelles - - ---snip--- Tonight you're mine completely You give you love so sweetly Tonight the light of love is in your eyes But will you love me tomorrow? - ---snip--- I just wondered why the writers of Unchained Melody are mentioned in the copyrights etc for the song, but not Carol King? Maybe using one line isn't enough to infringe on copyright? A lot more of Unchained Melody was used, after all... Joseph http://movies.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Movies - - What's on at your local cinema? ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 4 Jan 2003 21:50:38 +1300 (NZDT) From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Joseph=20Francis?= Subject: The first to make "world music"? Was Joni the first to make "world music"? Just reading the Karen O'Brien book where she makes a point of saying how Joni beat Paul Simon (before Graceland), Sting and Peter Gabriel to it because of 'The Jungle Line' having Burundi drums etc, and 'The Boho Dance' (in The Hissing of Summer Lawns, 1975) I'm not so sure whether she was first. Paul Simon recorded "El Condor Pasa" as early as 1970 with the Los Incas group, calypso style on "Me and Julio Down By the Schoolyard" and "Take Me to the Mardi Gras", and reggae in "Mother and Child Reunion" (recorded in Kingston, Jamaica with local musicians in 1972). Does that classify as world music? I think it does :) Still, I agree that there weren't many others at the time. Joseph http://movies.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Movies - - What's on at your local cinema? ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 4 Jan 2003 08:26:48 -0500 (EST) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: production & arrangements --- Moni Kellermann wrote: > Hope someone got him a spellchecker for Christmas, > too. > To see a word like "priviledge" printed as part of a > Joni Mitchell album's > liner notes really hurts. I was too lazy to check and I figured the jmdler who typed this made a typo, so I didn't comment, but noticed it too. Larry, Larry, Larry! Stick with the guitar-playing! ===== Catherine Toronto ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 4 Jan 2003 09:20:25 EST From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: As the weekend turns...(Covers Giveaway reminder) Howdy gang! Don't forget - you still have the entire weekend to venture a guess for a free copy of Covers #36...I've got a couple of leaders, but there are still 40 or so guesses that would put YOU on top. So, if you wish, have at it. As of this writing NO Italians have guessed, though I've had one "pseudo-Italian" try to pull a scam on me! :~) Happy weekend all! Bob NP: War, "Slippin' Into Darkness" (live) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 4 Jan 2003 12:01:46 EST From: Bobsart48@aol.com Subject: Re: Rhymin' Joni, Songs of the Day and calling Paris In a message dated 1/2/03 8:03:08 AM Eastern Standard Time, SCJoniGuy writes: > That would be an interesting question to ask her, Bob...my own thinking is > that she is brilliant enough to compose the lyric as it is sung and > printed, although most of us aren't at the level to always hear it as such. > We're much more comfortable rearranging the words so that the rhymes come > at the end of the lines, just as you have done. > I agree that I would like to ask her about this. However, I am afraid that I see her work in these early songs as being much more "craftsman-like" in their structure than "ingenious". Yes, they are clever, and I am content with "brilliant". But "genius" is a tough one to really grasp for me as a non-genius. How much if what passes for genius is innate, and how much is the product of perspiration (like 'invention')? Here, I am not just talking about the rhymes, I am talking about the structure. For example, look at the third line (two words) of each of the following stanzas. Also, each line uses two measures of music (give or take what I would call "grace notes"). No, the structure of the song is as I wrote it. Joni was learning her craft while adding her artistic touches IMO. I need to go now. Perhaps more, later. (Like on couting syllables( :-) I had a king in a tenement castle Lately he's taken to painting the pastel Walls brown He's taken the curtains down. I had a king dressed in drip-dry and paisley Lately he's taken to saying I'm crazy And blind He lives in another time. I had a king in a salt-rusted carriage Who carried me off to his country for marriage Too soon Beware of the power of moons. Bob S. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 4 Jan 2003 12:20:21 -0500 From: "janine sherman" Subject: Two Weeks Notice Happy New Year to everyone on the jmdl, My home -from -college daughter and her friend went to see Two Weeks Notice at the movies. She comes in the door laughing to tell me this. Her friend was humming the tune to Big Yellow Taxi after the movie and my daugher tells her, " I actually know the words to that song, it's by Joni Mitchell, my mom's favorite. She is the one we spent 2 hours trying to find her place in Canada on our vacation one year... I can't beleive it was in here sung by the Counting Crows!" I guess all is not lost on the ears of babes... Good luck , Lori! and how 'bout those OSU Buckeyes last night??? Janine ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 4 Jan 2003 18:41:41 +0100 From: arid@geneva-link.ch Subject: Re: production & arrangements >I was too lazy to check and I figured the jmdler who >typed this made a typo, Well, English isn't my first language, so I didn't notice it... >so I didn't comment, but >noticed it too. Larry, Larry, Larry! Stick with the >guitar-playing! It seems a few people here don't like Larry Klein too much!? Why? Alain ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 4 Jan 2003 21:14:28 +0100 From: "mike pritchard" Subject: The Britons with the best teeth >>The Britons with the best teeth, according to the survey, were James Bond actor Pierce Brosnan and actress Elizabeth Hurley.<< Isn't Pierce Brosnan Irish? mike in bcn NP Pat Metheny Group - If I could ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 4 Jan 2003 17:28:18 EST From: RobSher50@aol.com Subject: Missing you all-SJC Greetings to everyone at JMDL! I was trying to catch up with all of the digests before writing to you, but alas, I've only made it through mid-December. My heart was too full with the desire to say hello to this wonderful group of friends and to let you know that I missed you all terribly. At the time of the last Jonifest, I was grappling with the beginning of some deep personal issues, but seeing all of the Jonilistas was such an encouragement to both Rob and myself. He thought you were the greatest people he'd ever met, and he really wants to come back to Jonifest 2003. Shortly after our return to Maryland and on top of my other personal dilemmas, we had to deal with the sniper attacks. It turns out the perpetrators were caught in the town right next to me, Clinton, MD. (I live in Waldorf) To make matters worse, I caught the Metro in Clinton every day to go to work in Washington, DC. As Lori from Maryland can also attest to, the whole thing took a huge emotional toll on the area. It was like winning the lottery in reverse. You never knew if it would be your turn. Waldorf's only saving grace is that it is riddled with (long) stop lights and is a very hard place to get out of quickly. Most of us here will not even discuss the sniper attacks because the wounds are still too fresh. We're trying very hard to get on with our lives and life almost came to a stand still at that time. So I am now trying to get back to the musical part of my life. I've met some people in the area in the music business and have even had the chance to play a gig replacing someone who canceled at the last minute. The audience was small, but I realized finally, that I can play live and do well at it. The jazz scene here is unbelievable and for that reason alone, I know I made the right decision to move to the DC Metro area. As I start playing out more, I'll keep everyone posted. After coming through this personal ordeal, I realize that I am stronger than I thought I was and my confidence level has risen tremendously. I plan on going back to Ohio to redo my vocals on the CD and to add a few things I thought were lacking, and then I will make the push to release a serious CD. I plan on including "Edith and the Kingpin" because it is one of the greatest songs Joni has ever written. I wonder if she feels comfortable with artists paying homage to her by recording her songs and I wonder if she has a problem being a legend to others because that is what she is to me. Speaking of Joni, I am very intrigued about T'log and can't wait to hear it. As I was reading the many posts on the subject, Billie Holiday came to my mind as well. There are many differing views on her voice in her later years. I especially liked the post by William Chavez on 12/15/02 which made me think. My wanting to do one of her songs is out of the deepest and utmost respect. I think she should allow herself to be a musical legend and if she's not already doing it, she should allow herself to sit back and feel the affection from those of us who have loved her for years. She should just be the icon she is. If T'log isn't as good a recording project as her previous works, for me, it can't take away what she's already accomplished. I think that for every time, there is a season and that I want to let her life take it's natural course. This is just my personal opinion, but if her voice wanes, it wanes. She's still my Joni. I am one of the few that appreciates Billie Holiday in her later years. I love the scratchiness of Satchmo and the growl of Tom Waits. I love individuality and wish I were a stronger person to stand up for my own. Just wanted to add a last note to let Mark from Seattle know that he will be sorely missed and to let Ashara know that my heart goes out you for your loss of your best friend, Pippin. I miss you all and will hopefully be in contact on a regular basis with the list. In the meantime, feel free to drop me a line at Robsher50@aol.com. I love you all! Sherelle ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 4 Jan 2003 17:33:29 EST From: RobSher50@aol.com Subject: Kenny Lattimore does "River" I forgot to include this in my last post, I heard a fantastic jazz version of "River" that was done by a singer named Kenny Lattimore. He sings it the way I feel Joni wrote it; with the melancholy and longing of someone who realizes they've lost a good love. I'm not sure if Peter White is also playing guitar on this cut, but I know there is another accomplished jazz artist who shares the bill with Kenny. It is very well done and well interpreted. Kenny Lattimore is a very wonderful singer who reminds me a bit of our Bryan Thomas who is also fantastic! Sherelle ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 4 Jan 2003 18:34:33 EST From: Chorando6@aol.com Subject: Re: JMDL Digest V2003 #2 leslie Ash thats her name! Leslie ash. I couldnt believe what she'd done to her lips. In that new police thing she's doing where she looks herself up and down in the mirror thinking god i'm sexy and fantastic, and like a mad man on the sofa i sit there eating chocolate shouting out you're mad woman, what have you done! And the advert she does with the guy from men behaving badly, terrible, what a shame and more importantly what a sham. clive ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 04 Jan 2003 17:29:19 -0800 From: Randy Remote Subject: Re: The first to make "world music"? Joseph Francis wrote: > Was Joni the first to make "world music"? The Beatles had Indian music on the ST to their movie "Help!" in 1965 (American LP version). Then they did more on Revolver and Sgt Pepper in '66 & '67. They have a break in 1963's "I Call Your Name" that is a ska or reggae beat they had heard in England. Harry Belifone did "The Banana Boat Song" in the early '60's (carribean). "Lemon Tree" Trini Lopez. "The Girl From Ipanema" 1963?? Carmen Maranda and Josephine Baker in the 30's. And don't forget Charro! RR > > Just reading the Karen O'Brien book where she makes a > point of saying how Joni beat Paul Simon (before > Graceland), Sting and Peter Gabriel to it because of > 'The Jungle Line' having Burundi drums etc, and 'The > Boho Dance' (in The Hissing of Summer Lawns, 1975) > > I'm not so sure whether she was first. > Paul Simon recorded "El Condor Pasa" as early as 1970 > with the Los Incas group, calypso style on "Me and > Julio Down By the Schoolyard" and "Take Me to the > Mardi Gras", and reggae in "Mother and Child Reunion" > (recorded in Kingston, Jamaica with local musicians in > 1972). > Does that classify as world music? > I think it does :) > > Still, I agree that there weren't many others at the > time. > > Joseph > > http://movies.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Movies > - What's on at your local cinema? ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 04 Jan 2003 19:38:51 -0600 From: David Sadowski Subject: Re: The first to make "world music"? World music is a pretty broad term. If you think about it, when kids in England listened to blues from Chicago, wasn't that world music too? Randy Remote wrote: >Joseph Francis wrote: > > > >>Was Joni the first to make "world music"? ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 4 Jan 2003 21:08:57 EST From: Bobsart48@aol.com Subject: Re: Rhymin' Joni, Songs of the Day and calling Paris Further to my earlier post on Rhymes and structure, the early verses of I Had a King consisted of 8 measures. Yet Joni compressed them into 3 lines of lyrics, so that they read correctly. Still, when one looks at the sheet music, it is clear that all three verses follow rigidly identical patterns. On the internal rhyme idea, in my restructured (4-line) presentation, there is still some internal rhyming going on in the first verse He's swept with the broom Of contempt and the rooms Have an empty ring Here, I refer to "swept, contempt, empt(y)". Also, the way I wrote the lines, they all pretty much use up two measures per line. The one exception would be as follows (I re-write them to follow the two measure structure instead) I had a king in a tenement castle Lately he's taken to painting the pastel Walls brown He's taken the Curtains down. I had a king dressed in drip-dry and paisley Lately he's taken to saying I'm crazy And blind He lives in Another time. I had a king in a salt-rusted carriage Who carried me off to his country for marriage Too soon Beware of the Power of moons. Basically, the lines have 11, 11, 2 and 7 syllables (give or take some "grace syllables"). Also, the chorus (which I wrote as 5 lines instead of 4) contains 10 measures (2 per line my way). My guess is that she slaved over these lyrics, just for us (or maybe for her, too) ;-) . Here's Michael From Mountains, re-worked similarly. Michael wakes you up with sweets He takes you up streets And the rain comes down Sidewalk markets locked up tight And umbrellas bright On a grey background There's oil on the puddles In taffeta patterns That run down the drain In colored arrange(ments) That Michael will change With a stick that he found Michael from mountains Go where you will go to Know that I will know you Someday I may know you Very well Michael brings you to a park He sings and its dark When the clouds come by Yellow slickers up on swings Like puppets on strings Hanging in the sky They'll splash home to suppers In wallpapered kitchens Their mothers will scold But Michael will hold (you) To keep away cold Till the sidewalks are dry Michael from mountains Go where you will go to Know that I will know you Someday I may know you Very well Michael leads you up the stairs He needs you to care And you know you do Cats come crying to the key And dry you will be In a towel or two There's rain in the window There's sun in the painting That smiles on the wall You want to know all But his mountains have called So you never do Michael from mountains Go where you will go to Know that I will know you Someday I may know you Very well Copyright ) 1968; Siquomb Publishing Company Here, all three verses (as I have re-structured them) have the rhyming patterns AAB CCB DEF FFB This can hardly be an accident, and it smacks of craftsmanship rather than miraculous genius to me. Anyway, I hope I haven't killed this horse. Music and poetry derive so much from math and logic. Hard to believe Joni was a decimal in Ray's Dad's math class. :-) Bob S ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 4 Jan 2003 21:48:36 EST From: Bobsart48@aol.com Subject: Re: Dental Hell The funny Bob Murphy (funnier even than the Mets announcer) wrote: > This comes up on the list from time to time. The fact is, Joni was once > again misquoted. She actually used the term "*Mental* hell" in reference to > an operation she had in the mid-90s, during which her humility was removed. > There are some, I understand, who think it is poetic justice that Murph can't hear the sounds of the sickos like me laughing at his material (or the sane people groaning). But every dozen guffaws or so, I gotta pay homage. Bob S (yes, ROTFLOL - even the njc was a riot) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 4 Jan 2003 22:20:52 EST From: Bobsart48@aol.com Subject: Re: The Last Time I Saw Richard Andrew wrote (at the conclusion of his open, confessional and - as usual - articulate post): > Imagine a song written over 30 years ago having that > kind of impact on a man who wasn't even born when it > was recorded. This is the stuff of Joni's legend. > > - -Andrew > Yes, indeed. I think he's got it! Bob S PS - The closing song to arguably her most beautiful - and most confessional - - album. You expected chopped liver ? ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 05 Jan 2003 02:09:46 -0500 From: ljirvin@jmdl.com Subject: Today in History: January 5 1979: Charles Mingus died at age 56 in Cuernavaca, Mexico - ---- For a comprehensive reference to Joni's appearances, consult Joni Mitchell ~ A Chronology of Appearances: http://www.jonimitchell.com/appearances.html ------------------------------ End of onlyJMDL Digest V2003 #3 ******************************* ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she? (http://www.siquomb.com/siquomb.cfm)