From: les@jmdl.com (onlyJMDL Digest) To: onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Subject: onlyJMDL Digest V2002 #400 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/onlyjoni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com Unsubscribe: mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe onlyJMDL Digest Friday, December 20 2002 Volume 2002 : Number 400 Sign up now for JoniFest 2003! http://www.jonifest.com ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: She's heard her voice thru "both sides now" ["kakki" ] Colin and Garret birthdays [ReckersL@ebrd.com] How do you plan on living through the end? [johnirving ] Re: How do you plan on living through the end? [] Travelogian progression [Little Bird ] Re: How do you plan on living through the end? [Randy Remote ] what is real ... for Colin on his birthday ["Kate Bennett" ] TTT challenge..........and Karen Carpenter ["mia ortlieb" ] Re: Nonesuch status? ["Jim L'Hommedieu" ] Re: JMDL Digest V2002 #578 -- Nonesuch, holidays, etc. [BRYAN8847@aol.co] How do you plan on living through the end? ["Kate Bennett" ] RE: Nonesuch status? ["Bill Pearson" ] living through the end ["PAUL PETERSON" ] Re: How do you plan on living through the end? [Chris Marshall ] Re: How do you plan on living through the end? [johnirving ] Re: How do you plan on living through the end? [AzeemAK@aol.com] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 01:15:19 -0800 From: "kakki" Subject: Re: She's heard her voice thru "both sides now" Will and Randy wrote: > > I thought paintbrushes already came in different sizes?? :) > > They do? Well there goes my analogy. They come in different sizes but you are both right - in my experience with oil painting the little "hairs" tend to fall out of the brushes with a lot of use and they can get pretty rumpled fairly quick. If you are a starving art student you sometimes make use of what you have. I wonder if Joni always keeps a set of fresh, pristine brushes or if she does make use of the dog-eared ones for "special effects." ;-) >.(hmmm...analogy...the science > of the study of the anus....sounds reasonable, butt....butt.....) OYYYY! > up to his arse in snow north of SF, and just getting over the floods > from a few days ago Been thinking of you especially, Randy, since you have been in the main target zone up there! Hope you ride it out O.K. Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 10:28:44 +0000 From: "Mickey Morose" Subject: My favourite two moment on Travelogue Choosing two favourite moments on T'log when I love most - but not all - the tracks ... would have to both be in Hejira - 1) when she sings oh-oh-oh after the "hope and hopelessness" line - sends shivers down my spine 2) the way she sings the single word "love" in the last line of the song - being pretentious here, that one word and the way she articulates it says more about the ambiguity, pleasure, hope and hopelessness of being in love than most artists manage in their careers. _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 3 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail&xAPID=42&PS=47575&PI=7324&DI=7474&SU= http://www.hotmail.msn.com/cgi-bin/getmsg&HL=1216hotmailtaglines_addphotos_3mf ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 06:04:33 -0500 (EST) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: CRITICS of all expression... --- Eric Taylor wrote: > I don't mean my cheerleading for Joni's new music as > an attack on people > not so thrilled. Yet that seems to be the way it > comes across to some if > not many listers. > From now on I'm keeping my growing awe for Joni's > evolving artistry to > myself. > Why do I care if anyone else likes it anyway? It's sad that people can't just accept others' opinions on this, whether you love it or hate it. I don't think anyone should be afraid to be honest about giving their opinion. ===== Catherine Toronto ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 11:20:06 -0000 From: ReckersL@ebrd.com Subject: Colin and Garret birthdays Very late but very best wishes to you both, Garret and Colin. This brings back wonderful memories of our gathering at Chris's house last summer. Big hug to you both, Lieve. PS Colin, your sweaters are SO right now with this weather! I proudly tell everyone that I know the designer! ______________________________________________________________ This message may contain privileged information. If you have received this message by mistake, please keep it confidential and return it to the sender. Although we have taken steps to minimise the risk of transmitting software viruses, the EBRD accepts no liability for any loss or damage caused by computer viruses and would advise you to carry out your own virus checks. The contents of this e-mail do not necessarily represent the views of the EBRD. ______________________________________________________________ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 07:01:16 -0600 From: johnirving Subject: How do you plan on living through the end? Victor wrote, "There's simply a cd player and cd's that you put in the player." - ---and the lump that's sitting in front of the cd player. There's the barb. Kidding. More kidding. I am enjoying this little barb fest of love/hate. -More Joni duality. - -The question is, I think, "How do YOU plan on living through the end of Joni's career?" Personally, I see T'log as brilliant, beautiful, daring, richly executed project that is wildly better than I ever imaged Joni set to Orchestra could be. It's a brilliant step up from BSN by everyone concerned. And if you guys can't handle a 59 year old woman with enough gile, grapes and daring to put herself -again- out on a musical limb, imagine the pains yer gonna have when she's 70... 79... 93... "Thank god, Uncle Wayne croaked and we don't have to listen to that endless noodling anymore." "Uhhhh, but that voice..." ( At 93, Joni WILL be singing in that comical old woman's voice she used in one interview: "The Last time I saw Richard was Detroit in '68. And I said, "Richard...") Perhaps being in the middle of my mid-life crisis, I see this thread from a different perspective. It is a metaphor, for myself at least, about coming to grips with 'endings.' And how to live life in spite of knowing it all ends. Face it folks, All good things come to an end. Even Joni. You. Me. The JMDL. Fests at Ashara's. Record contracts. Lovely, young, strong soprano voices. The question is, how gracefully are we going to deal with the close of this brilliant, meteoric career? Whine? Complain. Lose one's self in what was? Compare the next new cd to Hejira? Compare the next cd to Hissing? Be forlorn if it doesn't measure up? Longing for one more For the Roses? Pray for a small jazz band? -How small. And without vision. This is how you want to close your relationship with the greatest songwriter in the second half of the twentieth century??? Here's a woman at 59, with the gaul to see the blessings left in her person at the end of her career and making the best of them. She's not lamenting the loss of her highs. She's not pulling out the old cd's, waxing nostalgic over happy days seen through rose colored glasses, soaking in what was. She's forging on. Taking delight in what's been revealed by her limitations. - -Limitations?! Those 'choppy' phrases... She's speaking the music! It's her voice giving out! Really? From day one Joni Mitchell emulated her idols, Lambert, Hendricks and Ross and made music with a more 'spoken' approach to the line. It's always had a feel of being half spoken. -That's always been part of the intimacy of her approach. "On the next cd, she should work with a small band." "She should go acoustic." "She should sing a full cover of blah, blah, blah." Ya know what? What we were blessed with for over 30 years was an artist who lived her art. An art was shaped and formed from her life experiences and nothing more. Somewhere in the earliest of days, when she was writing countless forgetable melodies on napkins, I think she came to the realization that the only way to be good, really good was to be as honest as possible and to let them flow from her life experience. When she was sad she wrote sad. And when she was in the company of 60's melody she wrote that way with Morgan Morgantown. And when she was forced by success into the social company of the upper crust, she commented about it. If the circumstances of her life lend to using a tight, small band, that is the only way and only reason the new recording will be with a tight, small band. It won't be because "she'll sound prettier for it," --which is the motivation of people who ask for this to happen. I can hear Joni now, "Screw pretty. I'm going to give you the art of my life man." And she will do it trying to make the most beautiful product she can. The girl has vision. All of this is what T'log is for me. She took a life experience (the momentary joy of being on stage in the company of a palette of many, many sound colors...) and decided there was something she could do about the 'spareness' about the old recordings. I firmly believe when Joni listens to all the old stuff loved around here, what she hears is all the open, empty spaces where colors were meant to be, but aren't. The bass lines she wanted on those records aren't there. The drum lines she imagined to be there aren't there. The 'brass' section of her guitar wasn't the sum of the brass she envisioned in her mind. -And she decided that the music was good enough, still valid enough, to warrant going back and giving those quality songs a deeper sound color than they got the first time around. Give the lines the grace notes that were left off because there was so much story to tell. And perhaps as strongly, she felt they were deserving enough to give the songs a maturity of perspective that could have been there. -You know, THE most perfect song that was meant to be on T'log but wasn't? Based on her own comments: Cold Blue Steel. She was absolutely right in her observation that her young voice at the time wasn't sufficent enough to carry the drama of the song. -Cold Blue would have been smashing in her, at the end of the game, voice. And that's what all this is about, the end of the game. I think Joni is looking at the end game and saying, "I'm going out just as I came in, giving you the honest fruit of my life." Remember the interview she did with the release of TTT, discribing returning to writing for the sake of providing a song for a movie??? At the time, she said something like, paraphrasing now, the only music she was hearing in her head was from the 1940's and 50's. -T'log is a deliberate celebration of music from the past. It's Joni turning her back on all that is happening right now and saying there's no way she wants to play in today's aesthetic sandbox. And I don't think she has any apologies for it. What we get is the honest fruit of her life. When I contemplate the possibility of Joni making new music, I am most thrilled by her ability to invent something new. It's a skill she's show over and over again. -The exciting part is she still has it in her. No one could have anticipated T'log, love it or hate it. She's going out just as she came in. And when she says, paraphrasing again, that if she writes again she knows she has to make a new shove... well kids, set aside your "wish-she'd-do-a-tight-jazz-band-do-a-just-her-and-guitar-thing-because-it'll-be-so-pretty." We will be in for life art. It will be the unexpected. -And she will do her best to make it beautiful. Dammit to hell, I'm in tuned to her muse enough to say I'm going to love it and I haven't heard a note yet. -That woman knows how to LIVE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! How do I plan on living through the twilight of Joni Mitchell's career? I will not go out sitting with one piece of the puzzle weighing and judging it against other pieces of the puzzle. I will look lovingly at the sum total of the Artistry she has graced my life with and say, "Thank you." (Imagine how silly some of you are going to look when you watch that up and coming movie of Joni in the studio recording T'log... the beauty of that woman in the act of making art will be enough to make the harshest critic aware of the power of this production. ) I listen to that woman sing, "Oh, where is hope?" and I think to myself, 'That woman knows how to LIVE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!' Peace. j. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 05:55:58 -0800 (PST) From: Little Bird Subject: Re: How do you plan on living through the end? >>>-The question is, I think, "How do YOU plan on living through the end of Joni's career?">>> John, what an excellent post! Thank you for that. It's true that so many fail to see the growth in most of Joni's projects. They want everything to sound like their favourite album and expect, demand, hope for more of what they themselves feel is her best form of musical setting. She doesn't do it for us. She does it for herself, to satisfy the muse in her that urges her forward with honesty and truth in a commitment to her artistic drive. And, yes, I thank her for that. I thank her because it speaks to me and the act of evolution itself is so inspiring to witness. I may not like all of Travelogue but I look at it with awe and wonder for many, many reasons. Not the least of which is her utter and complete devotion to music and the power it holds for her and others. I look at the package of the CD and think how much effort she put into that and how classic this record will one day become. Nothing like this has ever been done before - it's Joni breaking new ground yet again. Thank god for Joni Mitchell! How do I plan on living through the end? The same way I began my journey with Joni just 10 short years ago: with an open heart, an open mind, and a realization that she has given me so many gifts and insights. Thanks for this post, John. - -Andrew Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 09:34:54 -0500 From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: How do you plan on living through the end? In a message dated 12/20/2002 8:55:58 AM Eastern Standard Time, littlebird3333@yahoo.com writes: > John, what an excellent post! Thank you for that. Yes indeedy John, what a feast it was. It certainly deserves a wider readership than the list, but then again, we're the ones who can read it and fully appreciate it. To answer your question, for me a big part of it is realizing that I no longer expect Joni to be the most anticipated release in the pipeline. I have heard so much outstanding music this year that I haven't felt slighted by T'log, just disappointed. But I've heard many other new works by artists in their creative primes that I don't DEPEND on Joni to deliver that for me anymore. She can do as she wishes, as she certainly will, and I will enjoy it in that context. While your post was a truly brilliant piece, I remain curious how one can interpret an artist doing their old material in the styles of 40's/50's as "moving forward"? Composing/performing new material would be "moving forward"...performing songs she hasn't performed before (as on BSN) would even be considered as "moving forward"...working with new musicians, producers, instruments would be moving forward...T'log to me is very successful at acheiving its purpose, but I don't see it as "moving forward". Guess that's just me. There are some hints of "forwardness" in these interpretations...the lovely harp on Refuge, Billy's too-brief organ riffing on Flat Tires...just not enough capitalized opportunites to suit me. Thanks again for your passionate words, John. Bob NP: CSNY, "Guinnevere", 3.20.00 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 07:21:23 -0800 From: "Lori Fye" Subject: Re: How do you plan on living through the end? Wow, John Irving. I have been skipping most of the discussion about people's opinions of Travelogue, but I happened to read your post just now and ... You get it. The entire picture. Thank you. Lori ~ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 07:45:58 -0800 (PST) From: anne@sandstrom.com Subject: birthdays Colin (aka Scrooge...) I hope you had a spectacular day! And many many more! Ric, congrats on a half century! We'll have to light a candle for you to blow out at Passim (you ARE coming, aren't you???) lots of love Anne ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 10:53:12 -0500 From: "Maggie McNally" Subject: RE: birthdays Colin, that's a great big "me too" on the many happy returns. Hey Ric, we're co-new decaders...now you HAVE to join us at Passim. Hi Anne! love, Maggie Who has 982 unread JMDL posts in her "Joni People" folder...guess what I'm doing when I come back to work on 12/26? Happy Solstice to all...and Merry Christmas to all who celebrate. > -----Original Message----- > From: anne@sandstrom.com [mailto:anne@sandstrom.com] > Sent: Friday, December 20, 2002 10:46 AM > To: joni@smoe.org > Subject: birthdays > > > Colin (aka Scrooge...) I hope you had a spectacular > day! And many many more! > > Ric, congrats on a half century! We'll have to light a > candle for you to blow out at Passim (you ARE coming, > aren't you???) > > lots of love > Anne ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 10:54:37 -0500 From: Subject: Re: How do you plan on living through the end? It is a metaphor, > for myself at least, > about coming to grips with 'endings.' And how > to live life in spite of > knowing it all ends. > > Face it folks, All good things come to an end. > Even Joni. You. Me. The > JMDL. Fests at Ashara's. Record contracts. > Lovely, young, strong soprano > voices. > > The question is, how gracefully are we going to > deal with the close of > this brilliant, meteoric career? Whine? > Complain. Lose one's self in > what was? You know, I find it fascinating that everyone who is completely blown away by Travelogue and consider the best recording yet from Joni seem to assume that anyone who is less than thrilled with this new recording are longing for what was and/or wish that Joni had a sweet, young voice again. I may be wrong but that's the impression I'm getting. And I think that couldn't be further from the truth. That's almost as absurd as walking around wishing that Jerry Garcia was a little more alive so the Grateful Dead could play once again. Not quite but almost. Do you really think that people on this list are wishing that Joni could somehow slip back into time, be 20 something again for a few months, record a new record, and then magically reappear in 2003 with a new record. I don't know what the odds of that happening are but I think they're pretty slim. Did it ever occur to you that people who don't like Travelogue a whole lot aren't wanting or expecting anything more from Joni than whatever she wants to give. Where has anyone actually said they wish Joni would record another "For the Roses" or another "Court and Spark"? I haven't seen any such suggestions. The argument that one has to love Travelogue in order to gracefully accept change and things coming to an end is a bit overzealous in my opinion and I'm a little tired of hearing that rant over and over. Me personally, I still don't have a definative response to Travelogue, have liked some things on it, not cared so much for others, but I 'll say it again...for the most part, listening to Travelogue has helped me develop a deeper appreciation for Joni and allowed me to enjoy even more, albums that I love so much to begin with. Since when is that a crime? Why is there this assumption that someone who loves the original studio albums of any artist for that matter, is living in the past and "losing themselves in what was." Personally, I like to lose myself in Joni's music. It has that magic quality that enables me to just get lost, to soar along with the music. Is it somehow, not cool now to listen to Court and Spark several times over a weekend(which is what I did and thoroughly enjoyed it)? Is that not politically correct in the joni world? If Joni stops recording all together (which is a possibility) should I just sit in a room and not listen to any Joni Mitchell. That's about as much sense as this argument makes. Before I ever heard Joni Mitchell, I was a huge Rush fan and was devoted to them for a long time. They also put out a new album this year, "Vapor Trails" which I don't particularly care for. James Taylor put out "October Roads" which I really like alot. Beck, who I've never bought any cd's from, put out "Sea Change" which I completely love. My point is, just listen to what you enjoy listening to. Personally, I don't care whether or not Joni is the greatest musician of the 2Oth century. Whether she is or isn't- doesn't matter. I will enjoy her albums just as much either way. Let's imagine Joni is 80 years old, doesn't perform anymore but occasionally will sing at special occasions. But she doesn't have that pretty soprano voice anymore...and her albums are even older-doesn't matter. I will still like them just as much as I ever did. If you want to critique/defend Travelogue, then critique/defend it by its own merit without any reference to "a pretty soprano voice" or to people who love pretty soprano voices. I may be wrong but have people who love "Travelogue" stopped listening to Joni's early recordings? Honestly, some of the people who defend Travelogue so fervently and implore that they truly love Joni so much, while putting down people who don't like "Travelogue" seem to have little grace in my opinion. Victor in Atlanta, who's listened to alot of Nick Drake lately with whom I really have no choice but to "lose myself in the past" with as he sadly passed away in 1974 after only recording three albums(+ one posth. release) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 09:05:44 -0800 (PST) From: Little Bird Subject: Travelogian progression Travelogue is progressive on at least two levels. First of all, an album in this format has never been recorded before: an artist who takes songs she has written over a four decade period, pooling them together on one recording and refurbishing them with a complete symphony orchestra. There have been retrospectives, but none like this, and few by the artist herself. Second of all, it's progressive in the sense that Joni herself has never done this before. So, in the larger spectrum of album releases, it's new in terms of its format and presentation, and on the level of the individual artist (Joni) it's new for the same reasons. Simply because she hears 40s and 50s music in her head and admires that era more than what is being produced today does not make what she's doing retrograde. She's taking modern songs with modern sentiments, sentiments that are in fact timeless, and situating them in a grand context that is reminiscent of a time gone by. Would be more modern if she used Bjork-esque instrumentation and had an image of her on the cover with five rings in her nose and a buzz cut? Dare I say that what Joni has done with Travelogue it's post modern expressionism? A fusion of past with present. It's quite progressive, I think. Also, to address Victor's laments, I think there are many Joni fans who never fully got over the 70s. I don't know if there are any on this list, but they do exist. Some have abandoned Joni long ago. Not that it makes them less of a fan - they may still love to play Ladies of the Canyon on repeat every day - but they are ignoring the evolution of the artist, which I suppose is their right. I don't think John was saying that if you don't like Travelogue you must hate her newer work, but I've seen several comments on the list that indicate her voice just doesn't come up to the way it once was for people and that the musical direction she's taking now pales in comparison to the innovation she demonstrated when she was younger. John didn't just pull that out of his hat - it exists and I've heard it many times before. "Joni's not as good now as she used to be. Joni's voice isn't as nice as it once was. Travelogue isn't as good as, whatever..." There are people who wish it had never been made. People will love Travelogue and people will hate it. People will see merit in it and people will think it's rehash. All I know is that it's still very new and we're obviously still grappling with what it means in the bigger picture of Joni's career and in the bigger specturm of music. Time will tell how it will be remembered and how Joni herself will be remembered. - -Andrew Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 09:15:56 -0800 From: Randy Remote Subject: Re: How do you plan on living through the end? johnirving wrote: > The question is, how gracefully are we going to deal with the close of > this brilliant, meteoric career? Whine? Complain. Lose one's self in > what was? Compare the next new cd to Hejira? Compare the next cd to > Hissing? Be forlorn if it doesn't measure up? Longing for one more For > the Roses? Pray for a small jazz band? -How small. Lots of good points in this post. But to infer that those who are less than thrilled with T'Log are either small minded, living in some glorified Joni past, or plain 'don't get it' is like trying to prove that Chocolate is superior to Vanilla. Can you accept the possibility that some people listened to it with an open mind, and had a different take on it? > Somewhere in the earliest of days, when > she was writing countless forgetable melodies on napkins, lyrics > I firmly believe when Joni > listens to all the old stuff loved around here, what she hears is all > the open, empty spaces where colors were meant to be, but aren't. The > bass lines she wanted on those records aren't there. The drum lines she > imagined to be there aren't there. The 'brass' section of her guitar > wasn't the sum of the brass she envisioned in her mind. -And she decided > that the music was good enough, still valid enough, to warrant going > back and giving those quality songs a deeper sound color than they got > the first time around. Give the lines the grace notes that were left off > because there was so much story to tell. I think you are assuming alot about Joni's thought process. I wonder if she listens to her old stuff at all. If you are right about this, IMO the music suffered from all those 'grace notes' and flourishes, which were Mendoza's contribution anyway. > T'log is a deliberate > celebration of music from the past. It's Joni turning her back on all > that is happening right now and saying there's no way she wants to play > in today's aesthetic sandbox. That's fine, I can accept that if that's what she wants to do. She doesn't have to be open minded about today's music. But to imply that there is no great art being made now, and it's all in the past kind of negates your point, and is simply not true. RR ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 07:24:24 -0800 From: "RSM" Subject: Re: My favourite two moment on Travelogue Mickey: I agree with you on both points, although I think you are referring to the "ohoh" after "between the forceps and the stone."? (BTW, this is one of my favorite lines of JM. What a wonderful way of describing life falling between birth and death) This was the moan I have loved since hearing it on the web. Ron | Choosing two favourite moments on T'log when I love most - but not all - the | tracks ... | | would have to both be in Hejira - | | 1) when she sings oh-oh-oh after the "hope and hopelessness" line - sends | shivers down my spine ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 10:07:44 -0800 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: what is real ... for Colin on his birthday oh mags, tears falling...thanks for that beautiful passage...one of the best ever...how sweet to post it in honor of colin... >>From the Velveteen Rabbit by Margery Williams.<< ******************************************** Kate Bennett: www.katebennett.com Sponsored by Polysonics/Atlantis Sound Labs Over the Moon- "bringing the melancholy world of twilight to life almost like magic" All Music Guide ******************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 13:50:04 -0500 From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: Travelogian progression In a message dated 12/20/2002 12:05:44 PM Eastern Standard Time, littlebird3333@yahoo.com writes: > an artist who takes songs she has written over a four decade period, pooling them together on one recording and refurbishing them with a complete symphony orchestra. I certainly won't disagree that it's a *unique* project. That's a plus and a minus, the plus being the depth and breadth of the ambition of it, the minus being that there's not really much of a market for it. And you could state that it IS a logical progression, especially given the fact that she's not writing. There's really not anything left for her to do though in terms of this being a progression...she's now done a project where she sings others' songs as a vocalist interpreter(BSN) and one where she does her songs in a similar style. All of a sudden a "Christmas" cd is beginning to sound logical! And while I agree that it's a significant statement by an artist of her stature, I still don't see it as a "forward" move, but rather as one of retrospective. >Second of all, it's progressive in the sense that Joni herself has never done this before. But given that definition, isn't EVERY cd released by any artist "progressive"? It's ALWAYS something they haven't done before! > Simply because she hears 40s and 50s music in her head and admires that era more than what is being produced today does not make what she's doing retrograde. She's taking modern songs with modern sentiments, sentiments that are in fact timeless, and situating them in a grand context that is reminiscent of a time gone by.> This is an excellent point, and it may be why songs like "Cherokee Louise" & "Sex Kills" don't work for me in this format. There seems to be a disconnect between the lyric & the music. In its original version, the instrumentaion for CL was more tender & fragile sounding & suited the story. In its T'log setting it sounds like trying to put a square peg in a round hole. I admit this is picking at nits. And by the same token, this same theory is what makes T'log's Dawntreader SUCH a breathtakingly gorgeous gem! This song is intended to be treated with this fuller setting...same with "Judgement", and I could name many others that are augmented with the orchestration. But I would also argue that merely because it's different or new doesn't make it good. > Dare I say that what Joni has done with Travelogue it's post modern expressionism? A fusion of past with present. It's quite progressive, I think. Dare, dare! But the only thing 'present' about it is that it's released in the present. The arrangements and songs, as well as Joni's vocal stylings are all "past". Of course I'm grateful for whatever golden eggs Joni gives us, and I do enjoy T'log for wht it is. I just think it's a shame when so many of her peers (Waits, Dylan, Costello, Springsteen) ARE legitimately still growing and Joni's choosing to be left behind, for whatever reasons. And obviously Andrew, I respect your thoughts greatly and appreciate you sharing them. Where else could we have this kind of discussion? :~) Bob NP: Sheryl Crow, "We Do What We Can" ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 14:43:44 -0500 From: dsk Subject: Re: How do you plan on living through the end? waytoblu@mindspring.com wrote: > > The argument that one has to love Travelogue in order to gracefully accept > change and things coming to an end is a bit overzealous in my opinion and I'm > a little tired of hearing that rant over and over. > > Honestly, some of the people > who defend Travelogue so fervently and implore that they truly love Joni so > much, while putting down people who don't like > "Travelogue" seem to have little grace in my opinion. I agree wholeheartedly, Victor. It's not the enthusiasm that some people have expressed that bothers me, it's the "explanations" for not liking T'log, such as "you must want her to still be in the 70s" or "'she'll sound prettier for it,'--which is the motivation of people who ask for this to happen", that are offensive. It's annoyingly presumptuous of anyone to assume they know my or anyone else's motivations. People who've expressed negative opinions of T'log have given their reasons for them, and yet that has all been ignored by the zealots. So, their view is the only valid one apparently. That is what is annoying, not the enthusiasm itself. Do you zealots really think that anyone who does not appreciate Joni's artistic explorations would bother to be on this list? You're not the only people who have stuck with Joni and appreciated her surprises for decades. The attitude that only people who love everything about T'log are true Joni fans and open to change, etc. is insulting. Debra Shea, still hating the downturned endings and choppy phrasing, especially contrasted with the light, airy and flowing strings ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 12:49:24 -0800 (PST) From: "Jim L'Hommedieu" Subject: Re: Discussion List? Eryl, I remind you of a parka? :) I'll fall back on the exit line for some AA meetings: "The greeting we gave you tonight may not show the real warmth and hospitility that we feel for you." or something. Anyway, I think TRAVELOGUE is mighty fine. The paintings help to open a window to see the stories (the lyrics) in the context of recent events. The new instuments and arrangements further serve to give them new breathe. I like it much, much more than either "hits" or "misses". Lama - --- Eryl B Davies wrote: > I Joined the list on Sunday hoping to find some like > minded people but all i > find is closed minded anoraks who can't see further > than the ends of thier > noses and can't accept any thing different to whhat > they're used to. Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 15:04:51 -0600 From: "mia ortlieb" Subject: TTT challenge..........and Karen Carpenter I have a challenge for all of you jmdl'ers that do not like the song "Taming the Tiger". Try this: Play the CD in your car stereo where nobody can hear you sing; then play the surprise bonus track "Tiger Bones" and sing the lyrics to "TTT" along with it. It's like karaoke!; it's like....being Joni for the moment! I love this song more and more! Even the nice kitty, kitty.....It's hilarious! If it bothers you to sing about ripping on current commercial music, surely you can think of a time where you didn't like the music that was played on the radio, or didn't care for a particular station and apply it in that context. Disco perhaps? For me, it was the mid 80's..awful time for radio in my opinion. I'm trying to catch up on many digests, and I don't remember who, but someone mentioned Karen Carpenter's voice. I totally agree! I love her voice and it seems such a shame that she is so forgotten. Neil Young must have been a fan. I went to one of his concert's once and he was piping in the Carpenters before he walked out on stage. The Pretenders too. I saw a concert where Chrissy Hynde did a sort of tribute medley to Karen Carpenter. It was wonderful! I was also thinking this a couple weeks ago...wouldn't "I'm on the Top of the World" make a good speed metal/punk rock tune? I hope you all have a joyous Holiday! Mia _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail&xAPID=42&PS=47575&PI=7324&DI=7474&SU= http://www.hotmail.msn.com/cgi-bin/getmsg&HL=1216hotmailtaglines_addphotos_3mf ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 13:07:27 -0800 (PST) From: "Jim L'Hommedieu" Subject: Catching up on Video Trees Listen, I'm sort of unpacking in this apartment, after living here for almost 2 years. (I've been working 59 hour weeks.) Anyway, I found my notes from JoniFest2002 where I promised to make some tapes for Michael O'M. and Mary P. I also found some stuff I owe to Cindy V. that never got mailed. I apologize for getting behind on making tree materials for everyone. I'll have several days to get caught up next week and I swear I'll do it. If you don't already have the Joni Video Tape Trees, write to me off-list and I'll get you started. jlamadoo@fuse.net Lama I'm including the Joni-onlies on this so new folks will be aware of this offer. Thanks. Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 13:09:58 -0800 (PST) From: "Jim L'Hommedieu" Subject: Re: Nonesuch status? Maybe they're selling their stable. I think I remember reading that Nonesuch is part of the Warner/Electra/Asylum group so Atlantic is a competitor. Lama - --- BRYAN8847@aol.com wrote: > The Nonesuch Web site is offline, with a cryptic > message saying there will be > an update soon and to go to the Atlantic Records > site for information on SOME > of the Nonesuch artists, not including Joni. Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 16:57:44 -0500 From: BRYAN8847@aol.com Subject: Re: JMDL Digest V2002 #578 -- Nonesuch, holidays, etc. Well, they're back on now, so I probably (once again) conspiracy-theorized too soon. While I'm at, happy holidays to all, with wishes for a healthy, happy 2003 (that's for those who do and don't like T'log, those who hate and love Joni's voice, etc....) Bryan In a message dated 12/20/2002 4:10:09 PM Eastern Standard Time, les@jmdl.com writes: > Maybe they're selling their stable. I think I > remember reading that Nonesuch is part of the > Warner/Electra/Asylum group so Atlantic is a > > - --- BRYAN8847@aol.com wrote: > > The Nonesuch Web site is offline, with a cryptic > > message saying there will be > > an update soon and to go to the Atlantic Records > > site for information on SOME > > of the Nonesuch artists, not including Joni. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 14:01:12 -0800 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: How do you plan on living through the end? loved your post john! >>Personally, I see T'log as brilliant, beautiful, daring, richly executed project that is wildly better than I ever imaged Joni set to Orchestra could be.<< ******************************************** Kate Bennett: www.katebennett.com Sponsored by Polysonics/Atlantis Sound Labs Over the Moon- "bringing the melancholy world of twilight to life almost like magic" All Music Guide ******************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 14:01:14 -0800 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: Re: Travelogian progression i definately see t'log as forward because IMO she musically & emotionally reinterpreted her songs that made many of them quite relevant today...that is absolutely extraordinary to me... ******************************************** Kate Bennett: www.katebennett.com Sponsored by Polysonics/Atlantis Sound Labs Over the Moon- "bringing the melancholy world of twilight to life almost like magic" All Music Guide ******************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 22:25:16 -0000 From: "Bill Pearson" Subject: RE: Nonesuch status? Lama, Atlantic and Nonesuch are *both* part of the Warner stable Bill From: "Jim L'Hommedieu" Maybe they're selling their stable. I think I remember reading that Nonesuch is part of the Warner/Electra/Asylum group so Atlantic is a competitor. Lama - --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.427 / Virus Database: 240 - Release Date: 06/12/2002 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 17:30:59 -0500 From: "PAUL PETERSON" Subject: living through the end wow. Thank you for articulating a lot of what I've been feeling. The greatest songwriter, indeed. I wonder if people our age (Joni's age) connect with the summing up aspect of the project more easily. I am incredibly grateful to have lived in her era, and in the era of all the other musical pathfinders that came out of the sixties and seventies. So much of that music still sounds as contemporary and timeless as it did then and continues to be discovered and appreciated by people who are the age now that we were then. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 22:31:02 -0800 From: Chris Marshall Subject: Re: How do you plan on living through the end? It's an interesting one, this. The knowledge that Joni may release no new material does make me somehow uncomfortable, but I have to remind myself that the bulk of my favourite material is from the 70s anyway: C&S, Hissing, Hejira and DJRD. So, in fact, without thinking of it, I've spent the last 8 or so years living through the end without really acknowledging the fact to myself. I do, however, hope to be proved wrong. - --Chris Marshall chris@hatstand.org ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 17:36:32 -0500 From: "PAUL PETERSON" Subject: Joni if the styles of the 40's and 50's? I have to disagree with you here. In my opinion,these arrangements have nothing to do with the styles of the 40's and 50's. They are unique orchestral interpretations of music that never would have been produced during that era. If anything they are a synthesis of post romantic classical music trends of the 70's and 80's with jazz inflections and Joni's unusual melodic gift. I urge you to give the album a few more listens. There is stuff here that no one is doing in pop, jazz or classical music. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 18:45:47 -0500 From: "michael o'malley" Subject: Best of 2002 lists I love this time of year when all the critics list their favorite manifestations of creativity and related events of the past year in their 10 best lists, be they theatre performances, rock concerts, cds, books, etc. We finally get to hear about all those obscure events we missed over the course of the past year. I was so proud to see this morning that TLOG made it on to two of Quebec City's music critics' !0 best lists. This is exceptional, especially in light of the fact that Joni is not well known in the francophone world, and the launch of her new work has been very discreet here, if not totally invisible! Sail on Joni ! Blessed are we for the return of the light. Merry soltice to you all, Michael in Quebec ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 18:00:01 -0600 From: johnirving Subject: Re: How do you plan on living through the end? > If you want to critique/defend Travelogue, then critique/defend it by its own > merit without any reference to "a pretty soprano voice" or to people who love > pretty soprano voices. I may be wrong but have people who love "Travelogue" > stopped listening to Joni's early recordings? Honestly, some of the people > who defend Travelogue so fervently and implore that they truly love Joni so > much, while putting down people who don't like > "Travelogue" seem to have little grace in my opinion. Victor, I apologise for my 'lack of grace' if I've shown that to you. I don't mean to put anyone down. Grace here is a matter of perspective. From the first day I joined this list over 2 years ago, I have read a myriad of posts regarding this or that recording artist. How wonderful their music is, how lovely the voice, the artistry. Endless gushing about this or that recording artist. And I sit there thinking, "Uggghhh. What aweful dreck. Does absolutely nothing for me." I respect Bob Muller to degrees he couldn't possibly, possibly imagine, but - God bless him- I wouldn't lend 10 seconds out of my day to 97% of what he listens to. For me, it would be of little grace to hear Bob say on-line, " Micha Anima's new cd is so lovely." and then for me to jump on-line and say, " Micha Anima's new cd just doesn't do anything for me." Bob doesn't need to hear that. So I've never said it. If there's a Joni cut on Ladies of the Canyon, Blue, you name it, that does nothing for me, absolutely no one on this list knows about it. Because someone on the list loves that song to death and I feel they don't need to hear me diss it. And if there were a Joni Mitchell album I didn't like, no one on this list would ever hear me say that either. For me, that's a matter of 'grace' and respect to those on the list who do. I stand firmly on the side of people listening to what they love: Love what you like. Like what you love. Don't like something? Move on. Find the things you like and love and love it to death. I couldn't be more thrilled that Bob has so much beautiful music to fill his life with. I will read and often enjoy any critique of Joni. negative or positive. But when you get to the part about "I" paired with "like", to be honest I don't give a rat's hairless behind what one doesn't like about Joni. I don't need to hear that. It's the spirit and body of the critique that holds my attention, not the bottom line. My question, "How do you plan on living through the end?" has nothing and everything to do with whether or not one likes T'log. As much as it probably seems that I'm saying, love it or leave it. That's not my question. That's not my point. My question is, in this passage of time, how will you cope with: -What is.-? It's like the old line, "Grant me the serenity..." I cannot change Joni's voice. It is what it is. And for some, her voice on T'log is in such a state that they can't listen to it. -So the thought crossed my mind, "Is this how the Joni journey ends for you???" That you've travelled this winding road and come to a point where you have to get off the track because her voice too painful to listen to?" It's not like she's going to run out to the Winn-Dixie and pick up a new voice. Time is not on her side. I could be deeply wrong looking at Joni as if she's got half a foot in the grave. But for the most part, I see her career as at its cusp. What we are left with now will be 'What is.' With what serenity will you embrace the last bit of a beautiful ride? Where will you put the now in relation to all that was? How do you deal with what is? That's my point. That's my question. Face the direction of something you love. j. (picturing Bob's wife hiding cd's she doesn't like hearing under the bed...) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 19:56:05 EST From: SMC1254@aol.com Subject: re:travelogue progression I so agree with these sentiments - I think Joni has done something quite new and of course original and I really think alot of people don't know really know what to do with it. I have read some very strange comments from critics and lay people. I think time will tell and most likely shine in this works favor. I am also sick of hearing about her voice. I personally have accepted it with open arms - I love the quality, the feminine darkness of it - it is bravura. very sexy, candle lit. Stephen ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2002 01:03:23 +0000 From: colin Subject: Re: travelogue progression > I personally have accepted it with >open arms - I love the quality, the feminine darkness of it - it is bravura. >very sexy, candle lit. > can you imagine her singing TI or NRH or TTT with her young voice? Anyway, her voice changed years ago-on HOSL. bw colin ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 20:04:22 EST From: AzeemAK@aol.com Subject: Re: How do you plan on living through the end? It's not a big deal to me. There are no artists I can think of who have done nothing but masterpieces. Joni is one of the greatest artists in popular music of the latter half of the 20th century - in fact the whole century, why not? And she has had a very long career, covering many bases, and with great differences in the reception her work has received. Like any fan, I've prized some albums over others. To me the 70s was her decade, and all of her great studio albums came out of that decade. I've always looked forward to her albums, as I have with David Bowie, Kate Bush, Jane Siberry, Richard Thompson and others. And as with many people, I have learned to temper my expectations. I enjoyed her 90s albums when they came out, but they didn't leave as much of a mark as her greatest work. The songwriting was simply not as good - there, I've said it! It doesn't mean she had become a bad songwriter; to me it did suggest that the flame of her genius was no longer burning as brightly as it once did, and I began to suspect that it never would. That's where I remain, but I haven't ruled out a spectacular return to form - after all, Dylan did it with Time Out Of Mind, against - surely - even steeper odds. As to her voice, for me the decline (OK, IMHO, but that's what I hear, no ifs or ands or buts) has been very slow, merging with the deepening and ageing process that most voices go through, albeit at very different rates. By the time TTT appeared, it was sounding very frayed, but it still worked for me - the dizzying descent in the chorus of Harlem in Havana is still a delicious moment. At that time, I could completely appreciate the argument that while her voice had lost out a lot in range, it still had enough horsepower to carry the songs, while it had gained a weight of experience and expressive ability. By the time BSN appeared, the balance was tipping over into critical. She just didn't have the pipes any more, and Vince Mendoza's arrangements blah blah blah... Travelogue? Well, all I can say is I'm very sorry! One slight paradox about my love of Joni, who is usually the first person I mention when people ask me about my favourite music: because I didn't start listening to her until the mid 80s, there has never been a year when a Joni album was my favourite of the year. Letting go is not hard for me, partly for this reason. There's never been a time when I've regarded her as the best *current* songwriter, if you know what I mean. That "title" has gone to Richard Thompson, Shawn Colvin, Jane Siberry, Aimee Mann, Ron Sexsmith, Neil Finn, Nick Cave, etc etc. Do I hope Joni will make another great record? Of course I do. Do I think she will? I doubt it. I'll live, I guess. Azeem in London NP: Buffy The Vampire Slayer - the rather amazing Musical edition - fantastic! ------------------------------ End of onlyJMDL Digest V2002 #400 ********************************* ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she? (http://www.siquomb.com/siquomb.cfm)