From: les@jmdl.com (onlyJMDL Digest) To: onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Subject: onlyJMDL Digest V2002 #388 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/onlyjoni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com Unsubscribe: mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe onlyJMDL Digest Wednesday, December 11 2002 Volume 2002 : Number 388 Sign up now for JoniFest 2003! http://www.jonifest.com ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Wishing that Shorter's tenure with Joni was shorter [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] t'log ["Kate Bennett" ] My Take On Travelogue [=?iso-8859-1?q?Jamie=20Zubairi?= ] Re: Re: THE 3 GREAT "STIMULANTS" [] Travelogue ["William C. Burnworth/Tim Callaghan" ] RE: t'log ["Kate Bennett" ] Brazilian jmdler's help needed!! ["Vadim Litvin" ] Video clips... ["Christopher Treacy" ] Re: Travelogue (those of a nervous disposition please avertyour eyes ;-) [FredNow@aol.co] Blue: The Musical (long) [anne@sandstrom.com] Re: False alarms [Catherine McKay ] Re: Joni's pronunciation of Hejira [Catherine McKay ] Re: Travelogue (those of a nervous disposition please avert your eyes ;-) [FredNow@aol.c] Re: Joni's pronunciation of Hejira ["RSM" ] Re: Blue: The Musical (long) [Catherine McKay ] Re: "Photographic Memory" [Catherine McKay ] Re: Travelogue (those of a nervous disposition please avertyour eyes ;-) [Catherine McKay ] Re: THE 3 GREAT "STIMULANTS" [Catherine McKay ] Re: Letting Go of Joni [Catherine McKay ] Re: THE 3 GREAT "STIMULANTS" ["Jim L'Hommedieu \(Lama\)" ] Re: THAT C&S SONG ["kakki" ] Re: JMDL Digest V2002 #560 [BRYAN8847@aol.com] Jamie Zubairi's take on Travelogue ["PAUL PETERSON" ] Packs a Punch [Harry83house@aol.com] Re: Packs a Punch [Catherine McKay ] Re: My ideas on Joni's statue [sl.m@shaw.ca] Re: Packs a Punch [Harry83house@aol.com] RE: JMDL Digest V2002 #560 ["Heather" ] Re: Travelogue (those of a nervous disposition please avert your eyes ;-) ["Jim L'Hommedieu \(Lama\)" I don't understand. Please explain. It won't be me doing the explaining, Steve...I was the dude who originally expressed the displeasure with Shorter's contributions in the first place. Obviously Wayne is one of the all-time greats, I think he's just limited by what Joni wants from him, and by the same token, she believes anything he does as genius so betwixt the two of them they're trapped in a "Catch-22"! :~) Thank heavens for Michael Brecker on the '79 tour. Now that's some cooking saxophone, really contributes and drives the songs as opposed to trying to conjure up images of cats waltzing on stones or whatever. Matter of fact, when I was at my Mom-in-law's this weekend (my power FINALLY came back on Sunday night) I watched some of the Joni videos, and one of the things I saw was the Good Morning America performance of "Crazy Cries" Joni did with David Sanborn. Really nice, even if David didn't do anything extraordinary. I also watched her "SpeakEasy" interview where she stated that Shorter was on board with her for the duration. :~( Another interesting video discovery was in watching the film "Love" which contains Joni's piece called "The Black Cat With The Black Socks". The films initial credits contain Joni playing & singing a scatted version of "Love"...first time I'd heard that, and it was REALLY cool! Bob, who would like to see Clarence "Big Man" Clemons on Joni's next one! :~) NP: Elvis C, "Georgie & Her Rival" ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 11:31:22 -0800 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: t'log >>But why do you think Joni is so sold on Vince and Wayne? Is she mistaken? Fred<< >>My opinion is that she is in the Comfort Zone, a place she never used to seek. Jerry<< so interesting, i don't see what she did with travelogue as the comfort zone...i see her new arrangements of old songs quite adventurous! i have a theory...most criticisms i hear of travelogue compare the songs to her other versions...i think i like t'log so much because i don't really compare the songs & i always love hearing new versions of songs...i can understand that some just don't like the orchestral arrangements overall...but i just love the huge cinematic context of ths songs this way...i've listened to the songs driving in the day...for me, the best way to listen is still at night by candlelight or (now) christmas lights...this is because the music really takes me on a visual journey... ******************************************** Kate Bennett: www.katebennett.com Sponsored by Polysonics/Atlantis Sound Labs Over the Moon- "bringing the melancholy world of twilight to life almost like magic" All Music Guide ******************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 20:20:44 +0000 (GMT) From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Jamie=20Zubairi?= Subject: My Take On Travelogue Oh not another one! (I hear you say!) This album should be heard by people who have never heard of Joni and have never heard her songs. I have to say that I love this album. I can see why some of the songs were chosen - favourites; fun to have transposed to full orchestra; if they didn't get it with my arrangements, they must get it now! type thing... What this album does for the songs is that it takes it out of the realm of Joni as she is known to 90percent of the worlds populous and elevates them to the realm of standards. I can imagine a lot more people now will go,' Wow I've never heard this song before, I must cover it..'. Some songs will be seen as true greats in this form like 'Sire Of Sorrow' or 'Slouching'. You have to approach this album like any other Joni album, like you have never heard her before. If you have never heard these songs, or Joni, this album would be one of the greats just because of the diversity of songs that are there. The travelling images, the love the loss, it's all there, it all makes you think 'WOW where have these songs been all my life', like they should. I mean, her voice now is where most female rock singers' voices are 10 or 20 years younger than her. If you'd never heard of Joni, you would think,' here's a woman with depth, clarity, range (of subject) and balls' No one would comment on her lack of vocal range. I turn this cd on and just get sent away to islands, highways, lonely streets, past lovers, present loves, God, the atmosphere, the present situation, America. It's the strength of the songs and her delivery that hold this album. Mr Mendoza does an excellent job of painting the music around her words, taking the landscape and putting it into sound form. I love Wayne Shorter's dragonfly in The Circle Game, all his descriptions are spot on. It's the way she just goes 'I want a dragonfly Wayne, can you do it?' and there he puts it. He doesn't play lines like most sax players would, he creates feelings, delivers images. The combination of Mendoza landscape, Joni's words and Shorter's sparks is just amazing. Yes, I want her no guitar, I want her touring, I want I want I want. This is perfect BIG music. This is fineness put to music. - --------------------------------- With Yahoo! Mail you can get a bigger mailbox -- choose a size that fits your needs ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 20:23:49 +0000 (GMT) From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Jamie=20Zubairi?= Subject: Today's mondegreen From 'Love' Love never looks for love Love's not puffed up or envious or touchy Because it rejoices in the truth Not in the nicotine... Much Joni Jamie Zoob - --------------------------------- With Yahoo! Mail you can get a bigger mailbox -- choose a size that fits your needs ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 15:16:57 -0500 (EST) From: notaro@bayflash.stpt.usf.edu Subject: Re: t'log Quoting Kate Bennett : > >>But why do you think Joni is so sold on Vince and Wayne? Is she > mistaken? > Fred<< > > >>My opinion is that she is in the Comfort Zone, a place she never used > to > seek. Jerry<< > > so interesting, i don't see what she did with travelogue as the > comfort > zone...i see her new arrangements of old songs quite adventurous! If she wanted to redo old songs it would have been adventurous for her to have: 1. Done the arrangements herself. 2. Played them herself on the piano or a guitar. Jerry ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 15:59:28 -0500 From: Yael Harlap Subject: Re: Joni Mitchell Night at Club Passim, Boston, MA - January 6, 2003 ashara said: >OK........So far there is me, Anne, Maggie, Chris, Ric, Jenny, and Erik. Any >more takers? Chuck? Smurf? Brigitte? Stephen? :-) Please let me know soon! omg, i am SO jealous!! i want to go toooooooooo!! why is it on the 6th, that's a freakin' monday night? doesn't joni deserve friday or saturday? well, i'm glad other people are gonna get to go. peace, yael ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 21:34:27 -0000 From: "Stephen Toogood" Subject: Re: TO EACH HIS OWN Hi guys, just a few responces. Mike wrote:- > What am I trying to say?! Oh yeah: let's > agree to disagree sometimes. I agree! I'll just say to some people that I think that TLOG is as good as it can be considering there is no new material and Joni has lost some vocal power. I don't know if anyone else could have pulled it off as well. It is what it is and I'm glad she's done it because it shoes how strong these songs are and I'm surprised how much I like it. If she had done an album of re-records aiming to sound like the originals then I would not me impressed. Also I actually prefer some of these versions! In saying all this I don't mean to ignore negative reviews so don't think I'm being preachy because everyone should have their say. > As for JOB, I think it's better than the original. > I like the choir, which has a timeless, nationless, > mysterious quality. And Joni's performance > (that heartbreaking "Oh where is hope?") is > magnificent. > > What do you think? Well Mike, wasn't sure about the backing singers at first but you may be right. It's funny because listening to some of these songs make me forget about the originals. Though this is not true with all of them. Randy Remote wrote:- > As for Shorter, count me as another who just doesn't get anything out > of his playing except maybe annoyance. Oh no! I'll have to disagree. I think his playing is great and gives her sonngs (new and old) a real element of surprise. Just listen to 'Moon At The Window'. Deb Messling wrote:- > A lot of people detest TWTLIL, but I find the melody compelling, the guitar > eerie and intriguing, and Joni's singing right on target. I don't quite > understand how it fit with the Mingus album, but as a song, I love it. Ditto. It's one of a kind and even though like you say it doesn't fit well on MINGUS her voice sounds so Jazzy. "Oh the cold winds blew at our room with a view" STEVE NP: 'Virginia' Tori ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 16:48:23 -0500 From: Subject: Re: Re: THE 3 GREAT "STIMULANTS" > I get such a kick out of the fact that Travelogue is > generating such passionate, diverse, and often > diametrically opposed opinions on the list. It may > not be as perfect or sublime as many of us would have > liked, but it sure packs a punch. > > Jenny YOU SAID IT! :-) M ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 15:57:11 -0600 From: "William C. Burnworth/Tim Callaghan" Subject: Travelogue Y'know, I can't think of the first thing to criticize about Travelogue..it is a gift I'm very happy to receive as it is. No matter how much I enjoy all of Joni's other music, I'm always most interested in the current Mitchellmobile (to quote the Musician interview 1982). And just from Brian Blade and Paulhino Decostas' beautiful playing alone it's unassailable to my ears..ultimately it will send me back listening through her career with fresh ears. A gift. Love to you all..William C. np: Pretenders, "I Should of" William Burnworth/Tim CallaghanCastalian Springcspringj@earthlink.net ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 14:07:02 -0800 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: RE: t'log jerry wrote >>If she wanted to redo old songs it would have been adventurous for her to have: 1. Done the arrangements herself. 2. Played them herself on the piano or a guitar.<<< i'm not sure that we can say whether or not that she had a large, small, or no part in doing these arrangements- do we have any info on this? joni has always described her music in orchestral terms so just because she didn't play the instruments she hears does not mean (to me) that she is not being adventurous...what i find adventurous is the new emotional expression of so many of her songs...& the fact that she is making a new statement in the context that she presents her songs this time around... i can understand the desire to have her present her music the way she did when she was starting out & playing her own instrument & i would love to hear that too but i don't expect that anymore...i think joni keeps trying out different ways of expressing her songs (whether we like it or not)- & that is adventurous to me... as a songwriter i can really understand the desire to want to try something different with each new recording...or to evolve something you've experimented with to a different degree...that is the essence of creativity i find by not comparing her arrangements, her voice, her anything to what she has done in the past frees me up to really enjoy these songs the way she has offered them to us in travlogue because to me, she is first & foremost a songwriter... just all my opinion you know ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 01:09:30 +0300 (MSK) From: "Vadim Litvin" Subject: Brazilian jmdler's help needed!! Anybody who is in Brazil now, please, contact me off-list!! Need your help! Vad (in Ukraine) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 18:01:58 -0500 From: "Christopher Treacy" Subject: Video clips... Where is this clip from? And, is the GMA w/ Sanborn on the JMDL video tree? I Don't recall ever seeing rither of these... Bob said: Another interesting video discovery was in watching the film "Love" which contains Joni's piece called "The Black Cat With The Black Socks". The films initial credits contain Joni playing & singing a scatted version of "Love"...first time I'd heard that, and it was REALLY cool! ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 18:11:59 EST From: FredNow@aol.com Subject: Re: Travelogue (those of a nervous disposition please avertyour eyes ;-) Possibly, although it seems that the very concept of the project eschews comfort. I dunno, if it were my project and I had the opportunity to use masters like Wayne and Vince, even if I had used them before, I wouldn't hesitate. - -Fred In a message dated 12/10/02 7:57:42 AM, notaro@bayflash.stpt.usf.edu writes: >FredNow@aol.com wrote: >> >> But why do you think Joni is so sold on Vince and Wayne? Is she mistaken? > >Fred, > >My opinion is that she is in the Comfort Zone, a place she never used to >seek. > >Jerry ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 15:54:12 -0800 (PST) From: anne@sandstrom.com Subject: Blue: The Musical (long) Debra Shea wrote: As always, I look forward to whatever Joni comes up with next. She's such a good storyteller, I wonder if she's ever thought to do a musical... NPIMH: Pirates of Penzance... very theatrical Gee, it's funny you should mention this, Debra! I've been toying with how to incorporate some of Joni's songs into a musical. Here's the very rough outline. I'm interested in hearing what others think of the general idea. Blue: The Musical with songs by Joni Mitchell Characters: Penance Crane - a young woman who works as a deckhand on a fishing boat Billy Blue - a pirate Dawn (need a last name?) - a dancer the fishing boat owner the police chief fishermen and sailors (Billy's friends) Act I Scene I - Penance arrives on the dock, ready to head out for a fishing trip. She's the first one there. The boat owner admits that's she's the best crew member who brings in the most fish, but worries aloud to her about her prospects for settling down. She says she loves the freedom of the sea and sings Song to a Seagull. Act I Scene II - Billy Blue sits with friends in a bar. They talk about women. Someone asks him about Penance. He says she's too headstrong and says she wants to be "like a man," like he is actually, free and with a man in every port. He sings Cactus Tree about her. Acti I Scene III - Dawn, the dancer, enters and performs a dance routine. (maybe she could dance to a Joni song done instrumentally?) After she finishes, she goes over to Billy. They flirt. Eventually, though, Billy leaves because it's closing time, but promises "see you around." The dancer sits alone, sipping a drink. She sings Tin Angel with no small amount of irony and boredom. Act II Scene I - It's the following week. Penance is sitting with the owner of the fishing boat in the bar after coming in from a rough week on the water. They've both had too much to drink. They talk about the week and how disappointing the fishing was. The boat owner says again she should think about settling down and leave the fishing business behind. He reminds her of Billy, then leaves. Penance sings A Case of You. Act II Scene II The Pirate enters the bar with Dawn. They seem to be very affectionate and playful. He convinces Dawn to meet him after closing time and go out on the town since he'll be leaving to go out to sea tomorrow. They sing Night in the City as a duet. Act II Scene III Billy is getting ready to go to sea. He realizes how much he'll miss Dawn, and that, in fact, he loves her. He goes to the bar to tell her how he feels. He sings Down to You. Dawn says she doesn't feel the same,. She says that's he's just like all the other sailors she entertains. She sings Off Night Back Street. Dejected, Billy leaves. Act III Scene I It's time for Billy to board his boat, but he's nowhere to be found. His buddies wonder about his whereabouts as Penance, who is also on the dock, overhears them. She realizes how much she loves him. She sings Blue and watches as his boat leaves without him. Act III Scene II The police chief launces an investigation. He questions Dawn and Penance. They sing The Pirate of Penance. Both assume Billy is dead and each suspect the other. Penance announces she's heading back out to sea. Dawn returns to her job at the bar. Act III Scene III It's a few years later. Penance is on the dock. She owns her own fishing boat now. One of the sailors is late. He hurries down the dock with Dawn in tow. She whines about him leaving. In a room overlooking the dock, a figure appears. It's Billy. He sings Two Grey Rooms. Please be kind. I've only begun to think this through, but Debra's comment made me want to share it. lots of love Anne ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 19:09:35 -0500 (EST) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: False alarms Thanks again - I never would have known that! --- Moni Kellermann wrote: > - ----- > So, if you have a hexagram consisting of twice the > "heaven" element it would > look like > > --------------- > --------------- > --------------- > --------------- > --------------- > --------------- > > and also look like six guitar strings. > > > moni ===== Catherine Toronto ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 19:12:49 -0500 (EST) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: Joni's pronunciation of Hejira --- Mags N Brei wrote: > > i pronounce clandestine in the same way. > > canadian mags > Yeah, but how do you pronounce wahwahjashuska? (answer: Smith). ===== Catherine Toronto ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 19:20:14 -0500 From: "PAUL PETERSON" Subject: JOB Re: >As for JOB, I think it's better than the original. I like the choir, which has a timeless, nationless, mysterious quality. And Joni's performance (that heartbreaking "Oh where is hope?") is magnificent.< I totally agree. The whole thing is such an explosion of grief, heartbreak and anger and everything about the arrangement enhances the song. I have not yet been able to listen to it without crying or having to hold back tears. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 19:29:27 EST From: FredNow@aol.com Subject: Re: Travelogue (those of a nervous disposition please avert your eyes ;-) In a message dated 12/10/02 9:10:08 AM, AzeemAK writes: ><< If given the chance, how might you have tried to talk her out of it? >>> > >A really interesting question. I suppose, waving my hypothetical wand >for a moment to facilitate this conversation, I'd have told her that the >songs were great enough to stand alone, and that I didn't like Vince Mendoza's >arranging style, and that I feared that it would swamp her songs in treacle. > If I'd been feeling very brave, I might have said that her singing was >getting so croaky that juxtaposing it with very lush orchestral arrangements >would throw it into unfavourable contrast. If, for the sake of argument, we accept that Mendoza has swamped her songs in treacle (and, for the most part, I don't agree), then couldn't Joni's craggy voice be viewed as the anti-treacle that balances it all? Same with Wayne's quirky commentary. >Azeem in London >NP: Shawn Colvin - Whole New You (what a great record this is!) Now that's something I can endorse unequivocally! In fact, I'll see your endorsement and raise you one ... it's a stone masterpiece, as is its predecessor, A Few Small Repairs. Music just doesn't get any better. - -Fred ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 16:31:02 -0800 From: "RSM" Subject: Re: Joni's pronunciation of Hejira Isn't that the name of the guy that coaches Duke University's basketball team? | Yeah, but how do you pronounce wahwahjashuska? | (answer: Smith). | | | ===== | Catherine | Toronto ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 19:36:26 -0500 (EST) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: Blue: The Musical (long) --- anne@sandstrom.com wrote: > Debra Shea wrote: As always, I look forward to > whatever Joni comes up with > next. She's such a good storyteller, I > wonder if she's ever thought to > do a musical... > NPIMH: Pirates of Penzance... very theatrical > > Gee, it's funny you should mention this, Debra! I've > been toying with how to incorporate some of Joni's > songs into a musical. Here's the very rough outline. > I'm interested in hearing what others think of the > general idea. > > Blue: The Musical > with songs by Joni Mitchell > > Characters: > Penance Crane - a young woman who works as a > deckhand > on a fishing boat > Billy Blue - a pirate > Dawn (need a last name?) - a dancer Anne, I love it. Dawn's last name? Why, Treader, of course! ===== Catherine Toronto ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 19:41:00 -0500 (EST) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: "Photographic Memory" --- Les Irvin wrote: > Has anyone seen this book? > ---------------- > > ''Photographic Memory'' William Claxton, > introduction by Graydon Carter > (powerHouse, $65) > [captured] the smugness of Joni Mitchell, > and many more famous faces. Smugness? I haven't seen the book, but I'd love to see this picture. ===== Catherine Toronto ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 19:55:50 -0500 (EST) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: Travelogue (those of a nervous disposition please avertyour eyes ;-) --- Jenny Goodspeed wrote: > I agree Susan. And I think the slow (glacial) tempo > of > some of the songs combined with Joni's short > phrasing > makes it even more apparent. > > I think her choices are concious and well thought > out > - perhaps they reflect her current vocal strengths > and weaknesses - but, she has said in interviews > that > her singing style incorporates short or clipped > phrasing. > > If the tempos on some of the numbers were kicked up > a > bit, I don't think I would mind the phrasing as > much. > > Jenny This is exactly my feeling on it. So exact it's scary, in fact. I find the general pace too slow. I don't mind slow, but there's too much slow stuff one right after the other. And it all seems to be the same tempo, so it's not even a question of its being slow or not - not that I've tested it with a metronome or anything, it just all *sounds* like it's the same pace for too long, except for the jazzier numbers like "Flat tires" and "Just Ice" (both of which I prefer on T over their originals, and both of which are probably my favourites on this album - for now, at least; I keep changing my mind.) I'm not fussy about Joni's phrasing either in some spots - she sounds like she's speaking it, not singing it, and I don't find it goes with the orchestral music either. I'm sure she could sing it if she wanted to. Even though her phrasing sounds in some parts as if she just can't keep her breath long enough, there are other parts where she sustains it quite well, so I'm inclined to think it's a conscious decision. I think this could work if used sparingly, as it would have dramatic effect; but to me, she overdoes it. I'm enjoying all the bantering about this album. It's amazing how many different views there are. I like that. ===== Catherine Toronto ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 20:02:54 -0500 From: James Leahy Subject: Letting Go of Joni I've been very stimulated by Azeem's posts about his disappointment with T'logue. Also inspired by other listers' critical comments about the album. They pinpoint exactly what bothers me about this album and the sad demise of Joni Mitchell's creative output. I've listened to both discs one time through and then listened to bits and pieces a few days later. In any other situation, this would not be enough time to pass judgment. But I know Joni's music so well that I have to trust my initial impression: I just don't think I could sit through it again. I agree with all the criticisms about Mendoza's pompous arrangements; and surely, Wayne Shorter's contribution to Joni's music has gone on long enough (25 years -- and it all sounds the same). There is a little piano detail in Woodstock (Herbie Hancock) that gives me the shivers it's so beautiful, but it's over in a few seconds. Now for Joni's singing: I think she is pitched way too low to produce a sustained musical phrase that can be heard above the orchestra. I think the smoking has probably limited the energy of her very breath. Can her breathing be so impaired that she cannot continue a musical phrase beyond two words? Or was it a deliberate decision to break up phrases so choppily that they are no longer musical? When I listened to Amelia, I was devastated to hear her chop up the line "Amelia it was just a false alarm" into little chunks. It just doesn't make sense emotionally or dramatically. I wonder if Joni is even aware of her own instrument and what has happened to her singing over the years. Jerry Notaro brought up another factor which I think is important: the comfort zone. Joni is taking no risks here: surrounding herself with trusted musicians, comfortably ensconced in her newfound family, and elevated to the status of museum piece by award after award -- who can blame her for retiring from the wearying, restless pursuit of love and music? Which brings me to my own personal epiphany, and this is a good time to reveal it: I'm getting weary of being a Joni fanatic! I'm increasingly worried about being obsessed with a person I've never met, whose artistic output peaked in 1979! Yes, I did see in Joni a kindred soul, who put into words and music some of my own deepest thoughts and feelings about human relationships. I admired her immense creativity and spirituality, while at the same time ignoring my own creative needs as I lived vicariously through her. At this time of my life, I feel more in touch with my creativity than ever before, having returned to one of my first loves: the visual arts. Of course, for this I can only thank Joni. Perhaps she was my muse and my mentor all along -- it just took me this long to give myself permission to be my own true self. Maybe this is my time to let go of Joni. Jim ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 20:20:00 -0500 (EST) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: THE 3 GREAT "STIMULANTS" --- mtotzke@gosympatico.ca wrote: > Now, how do people feel about what I think > of as Joni's "let's get serious" T'LOG triad -- > namely SLOUCHING, LUDWIG and JOB? > > I really disliked them on first listen; then they > grew on me and I found myself liking them. > Now? My fondness for JOB has deepened to > love, and I'm back to disliking the first two. Like you, I've gone back and forth and back again on so many of these songs. Joni does that. Maybe that's why I've remained a fan of hers for so long. ("I hate you some, I hate you some, I love you some!") I don't care for Ludwig at all. If it's supposed to sound Beethovenish, I don't think it does. I think there's something missing (maybe salt?) I like both Slouching and Job (right now. Ask me again tomorrow.) I'm not sure if I'll be able to get over that image of the all-guy chorus in Job as being like the guys in tuxes in dance movies though - I think it was Littlebird Andrew that started that, so I think this image is going to linger for a while and I won't be able to listen to this without laughing. A few people have mentioned that the male chorus sounds too bland (or something like that); however, if you imagine the antagonists as being either the holier-than-thou type of people who "pity" you when you're down and "understand" it when you rage at them (while secretly being thankful that it's you, not them); or as social-worker types who are supposed to retain some kind of professional distance while you whine at them; or professional torturers who are prodding at you with hot irons "for your own good" (not because they enjoy it,eh?), then you wouldn't expect them to show emotion - the language they use is detached (They don't say something like, "Hey, look, pal. We get it. We're not pissed off at you. God is punishing you, what a pain!" Instead they use this very formal bureaucratic language (emphasis mine, marked by * due to incapability of producing italics in this format): "We don't *despise* your *chastening*. God is *correcting* you." (Hey, don't blame us! It's God that's doing it!)) So it's suitable that their voices be uniform, precise, right in time with one another, and devoid of emotion. (In fact, they could be members of the Spanish Inquisition, couldn't they? Did someone say Comfy Chair?) In Slouching, I wasn't fond of the "Head of a man"s in the original either. Maybe if she had sung it a bit different. (Otherwise she'd have to take out the "Shape of a lion"s too for balance.) (Maybe if she had chanted it, or whispered it, so we'd all have to ask, "What is that thing that Joni says at the end of the chorus?") ===== Catherine Toronto ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 20:22:53 -0500 (EST) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: Letting Go of Joni --- James Leahy wrote: >> Which brings me to my own personal epiphany, and > this is a good time to > reveal it: I'm getting weary of being a Joni > fanatic! I'm increasingly > worried about being obsessed with a person I've > never met, whose > artistic output peaked in 1979! Yes, I did see in > Joni a kindred soul, > who put into words and music some of my own deepest > thoughts and > feelings about human relationships. I admired her > immense creativity and > spirituality, while at the same time ignoring my own > creative needs as I > lived vicariously through her. At this time of my > life, I feel more in > touch with my creativity than ever before, having > returned to one of my > first loves: the visual arts. Of course, for this I > can only thank Joni. > Perhaps she was my muse and my mentor all along -- > it just took me this > long to give myself permission to be my own true > self. Maybe this is my > time to let go of Joni. As long as you don't let go of us. ;) ===== Catherine Toronto ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 20:26:18 -0500 From: "Jim L'Hommedieu \(Lama\)" Subject: Re: THE 3 GREAT "STIMULANTS" Wow. True. Shades of "Joni should go back to the dulcimer." "Bobby has sold out folk music." "Joni should go back to the piano." Lama ps, I agree with the last one. heh heh Jenny Goodspeed said, >>>> I get such a kick out of the fact that Travelogue is generating such passionate, diverse, and often diametrically opposed opinions on the list. It may not be as perfect or sublime as many of us would have liked, but it sure packs a punch. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 20:28:59 EST From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: Video clips... In a message dated 12/10/2002 6:07:06 PM Eastern Standard Time, whizzboom@attbi.com writes: > Where is this clip from? And, is the GMA w/ Sanborn on the JMDL video tree? > I > Don't recall ever seeing rither of these... > Chris, As far as the Sanborn & the SpeakEasy interview (a damn good btw), these were included on the AWESOME video that Ashara gave us for FREE at Jonifest 2002! (Now you see why you should come to Jonifest?) :~) FYI, the total contents are: 1. Speak Easy with Jana Lynne White (2000) 2. David Letterman (2000) 3. Rosie O'Donnell (2000) 4. Bravo - Arts & Minds - Broadcast 11/9/01 5. Farm Aid (1985) 6. Good Morning America - Broadcast 10/2/98 7. Bravo - Soundtrack of the Century 8. MTV - Influences As for the "Black Cat With The Black Mouse Socks" that is a segment of a film called "Love", written & directed by women. Joni wrote the script for her section, and stars in it as her "Art Nouveau" character from the cover of DJRD. It's interesting, a little dated, but of course well-written. I remember seeing it originally at Ashara's at a fest a couple of years ago, but there was a crowd so I couldn't really focus on it that well...AND I missed that great intro to the film with Joni playing acoustic and hum-singing "Love". I am grateful to the very kind JMDL'er who sent it to me wishing to remain anonymous, which I will of course honor. I'm happy to make copies for whoever would like them. Bob NP: Rachel Z, "Lakota" ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 20:41:36 EST From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: Letting Go of Joni In a message dated 12/10/2002 8:02:28 PM Eastern Standard Time, jamesl@ca.inter.net writes: > Maybe this is my time to let go of Joni. Jim, thanks for sharing this intimate "confession"...though I'm not ready to "let go of Joni" just yet, I must say that the way I feel now reminds me of how I felt after CMIARS...DED was OK, but certainly didn't compare to her 70's work (for me). Then Chalk Mark was just a miscalculated mess (to my ears), and I wrote her off. Well, we know what came next...I didn't get NRH until a friend bought it and put it on tape for me to hear. Then I knew that Joni was back (certainly not in a Hejira-ish way, but at least a major rebound from CMIARS) and I was back on board, even more so with TI. Now, BSN was a swing & a miss, as is T'log, so I'm a bit on edge to see where she goes from here. Especially having heard SO much great music this year, I know that I'm not losing an interest in music or that it fails to move me. I'm sure Joni will not lose a nanosecond's sleep either way! :~) And regardless, there's still all these great folks here, and all these blankety-blank covers! Bob NP: Karrin Allyson, "The Meaning Of The Blues" (I will say that if it were not for the covers project I would never have heard this EXCELLENT new release! Buy it for "Blue Motel Room", groove to the whole thing!) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 20:49:15 EST From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Joni in the RS As was previously mentioned, Joni has a full-page interview in the latest Rolling Stone. Since there was some discussion of the pronunciation of Hejira, I thought I would transcribe this little bit: David Wild: The title of the new album, Travelogue, reminds me of 1976's Hejira, which you named after Mohammed's trip to Mecca. Joni: When I don't have a title, I always go back to "The Songs Of the Sunday Painter". Somebody said "Joni, you've had that title for the last five albums," and I said, "OK". I had trouble getting to the essence of it, and it was really last-minute when I did. Making an album like this, it's like unloading the car on a holiday. You know, if Hejira hadn't already been used as a title, it would have been a good title for this, too. Bob NP: Coldplay, "God Put a Smile Upon Your Face" (Joni, if you like the New Radicals please listen to this Coldplay record!) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 18:42:30 -0800 From: "kakki" Subject: Re: THE 3 GREAT "STIMULANTS" Lama wrote: > Wow. True. Shades of "Joni should go back to the dulcimer." "Bobby has > sold out folk music." "Joni should go back to the piano." I was thinking today that some of the reaction to Joni going orchestral might be akin to the reaction of some fans to Billie Holliday deciding she wanted to record a country western album, or Tony Bennett deciding to start singing folk songs and strumming on a dulcimer or Beethoven deciding to compose for banjo or Dylan deciding to do a born again Christian album (oops he DID that one already! ;-) Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 18:48:08 -0800 From: "kakki" Subject: Re: THAT C&S SONG Deb asked: > Which Simon, our Simon? Right about what? That one took me a few seconds, too. I think it is our Simon, who said a long time ago that this would truly be Joni's last album. I hope he will be proved wrong ;-) Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 22:00:30 EST From: BRYAN8847@aol.com Subject: Re: JMDL Digest V2002 #560 Perhaps we should round up all those who don't like Travelogue, who think Joni can't sing anymore, try them(just a formality-they are as guilty as sin) and sentence them to death. who wants to be in the firing squad? Since we're already in pain, that would be putting us out of our misery. Believe me, it hurts to feel this way about Joni (I'm in, nearly, the she can't sing anymore group). This isn't fun. It feels like grief. Bryan ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 22:04:06 -0500 From: "PAUL PETERSON" Subject: Jamie Zubairi's take on Travelogue Agree with your assessment. I, too, often think while I'm listening to one of the great songs on this album (Slouching, Sire of Sorrow, Sex Kills, Hejira, Chinese Cafe, Dawntreader) "How can the music press not be appreciating the astonishing greatness of this cut?". I agree ,too, with your comments on her voice. Here is an instrument that can follow the most complex melodic lines without ever even a hint of unsureness or struggle to maintain pitch. (And she can still do this live as we heard on the last tour) . There's no need to make allowances for some ravaged vibrato or need to fake difficult passages by speaking or shouting as many singers resort to as years pass. And the emotional expressiveness is as wide ranging, maybe even more wide ranging, than it ever was. And the arrangements are not, as I first feared, 'Joni-lite'. They are complex, exciting, interpretations of Joni's extremely unusual musical palette. I for one find it exhilerating to hear some of Joni's strange chords played by many new instruments. And the songs that call for rage really benefit from the huge orchestrations. Finally, I agree that if she tours this album, it will be one of the greatest concert experiences of my life. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 19:20:12 -0800 From: "kakki" Subject: Re: t'log Kate wrote: > randy >>I think Vince's sweeping, dramatic arrangements remind her of > the Hollywood movies she saw when she was a kid.<< > > i think that is true, i think that is why i like t'log so much! That is part of the catch/hook for me, too. I hear bits in T'log that remind me stylistically of the music in my favorite movie Fantasia - there is something that takes me back to first childhood (1950s) memories of Disney and the sounds of big, lush dramatic orchestras in movie scores and music of that time. And I suppose to some of a certain, ahem, generation, that does feel comforting. May be hard to believe coming from me (who mostly approves of all Joni's work in the here and now) but I also had many years of being abjectly disappointed in a number of her albums when they first came out. Hissing, Mingus, DJRD, Wild Things Run Fast, all just made my stomach drop out in disappointment on first and 50th listens. At this point, I have finally grown into to all of those albums and now, with the exception of WTRF, consider them masterpieces. But it took years to get there. I still even have problems with Hejira. I know intellectually that it is brilliant on every level, but it is still hard for me to listen to much. Nothing to do with Joni's artistry - rather, there is some kind of sadness in that album for me that I find hard to bear listening to very frequently. It's just a peculiar way it hits me personally. I feel pretty unequivocally good on first listens of T-log - but who knows how I may have felt about it at 20, 30, 40, 45? I may have run screaming from the room. I hear some imperfection but it doesn't bother me. Maybe I relate and embrace imperfection more now! ;-) The negative reviews of it are helpful because they get one to think through their own appraisals of it. I like it too much to think that it is a case of "the Emperor (Empress) has no clothes." The only analogy I could come up with is like those stories you hear of people who were in love at 18 but who lost track of each other, and then somehow they find each other again when they are 80 or 90 years old and all say that the other *looks* to them exactly like they did when they last saw each other. I don't know if this is a good analogy - but in T-log, I truly hear Joni's essence and the absolute beauty of the music through any cloud of vocal changes, orchestras, Wayne Shorter, whatever. Not only that but it is enhanced for me. It is like my internal perception has truly trumped or transcended the external perception. Then I thought about seeing Dylan's fans at concerts and how they still go wild about him even though his voice (to my ears) has long been off-key and atrocious. But they are really not hearing that (and they are not just being blind sychophants) - they may really be experiencing it on another perceptual level. Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 22:43:32 EST From: Harry83house@aol.com Subject: Packs a Punch I've been loving reading the many many opinions and comments since T'LOG's release and I agree with Jenny's post when she said..."I get such a kick out of the fact that Travelogue is generating such passionate, diverse, and often diametrically opposed opinions on the list. It may not be as perfect or sublime as many of us would have liked, but it sure packs a punch". Someone recently brought up Sondheim and I remember seeing a pre-opening Broadway performance of his musical, PASSION. Most of the audience literally hissed and derided the material AND the performers...I have never seen anything like it. I loved the show and was swept away until the rudeness of the people in front of me jolted me near the end of the performance. The show went on to win several Tony Awards including Best Musical of the Year, but I know many people who love it and many who loathe it...one man said it was the worst show he'd seen in 50 years of going to the theater! ...but it packed a punch! I have said before that I think Joni's closest peer artistically is Stephen Sondheim and one of those reasons is that very duality of opinion that people have about their work. Plus they both are lyrical geniuses...they play with words in magical ways...they'll use a word or phrase that has a couple of different meanings and place it in a line of a song in such a way that people will discuss its meaning decades after it was written! Anyway, enough of that. TRAVELOGUE has done for me what I like to imagine would please Joni very much. Songs I didn't previously care for or ignored (in a way) before they were re-imagined for this project, are the ones I like the best. FLAT TIRES is a lot of fun ...so is BE COOL ...OTIS AND MARLENE is a revelation to me now and isn't it SUCH a great choice as the opening number?...DAWNTREADER (sigh)...CHEROKEE LOUISE breaks my heart. I prefer the original FOR THE ROSES and I swear she did it differently on the BSN Tour. I think I'm kind of burned out on WOODSTOCK as a song, but I don't mind this one. The "big" orchestrations on SLOUCHING and JOB'S SAD SONG are majestic, thrilling, very grandly theatrical and yet, cinematic, too. I really wish she could have included SILKY VEILS OF ARDOR or PEOPLE'S PARTIES and a COMPLETE version of UNCHAINED MELODY as a hidden track or something. But I'm just pleased and happy its as great as it is...what a treasure she is. Harry ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 22:49:20 -0500 (EST) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: Packs a Punch --- Harry83house@aol.com wrote: I really wish > she could have included SILKY VEILS OF ARDOR or > PEOPLE'S PARTIES and a > COMPLETE version of UNCHAINED MELODY as a hidden > track or something. I've been hoping, ever since WTRF came out, that Joni would do the full version of "Unchained Melody". I'm still hoping. ===== Catherine Toronto ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 21:50:06 -0700 From: sl.m@shaw.ca Subject: Re: My ideas on Joni's statue Jim, people are surprisingly law-abiding in Saskatoon, especially with public art. There's virtually no grafitti, theft or damage. We did have a giant pig exhibition this summer, where artists sculpted huge pigs and had them look like Alfred Hitchcock and various other things (to celebrate the adoption of the pig as Saskatchewan's symbol :-) ). A couple of them went missing, but the cops found them pretty quickly, because they were so big they couldn't be hidden. In America, you might get kids shooting at your Joni Mitchell glass etching. In England, it'd be urinated on then thrown in the Thames. In Canada, they would RESPECT it. :-) Sarah Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 03:39:11 -0500 From: "Jim L'Hommedieu \(Lama\)" Subject: My ideas on Joni's statue Yeah, at the dedication, the adults would all go, "Oooh, words on glass. That's so sophisticated." Then, after dark on the first night, a bunch of kids would use it for target practice. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 23:02:25 EST From: Harry83house@aol.com Subject: Re: Packs a Punch Joni's tiny take on UNCHAINED MELODY is so achingly beautiful and the little bit of it on CHINESE CAFE is such a tease. I suppose if she were going to do the full version she would've done it on BSN. Oh well...better than nuthin'. Best, Harry ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 23:09:16 -0500 From: "Heather" Subject: RE: JMDL Digest V2002 #560 yes. yes. where is the sympathy? :-) heather - -----Original Message----- From: owner-joni@jmdl.com [mailto:owner-joni@jmdl.com]On Behalf Of BRYAN8847@aol.com Sent: Tuesday, December 10, 2002 10:01 PM To: joni@smoe.org Subject: Re: JMDL Digest V2002 #560 Perhaps we should round up all those who don't like Travelogue, who think Joni can't sing anymore, try them(just a formality-they are as guilty as sin) and sentence them to death. who wants to be in the firing squad? Since we're already in pain, that would be putting us out of our misery. Believe me, it hurts to feel this way about Joni (I'm in, nearly, the she can't sing anymore group). This isn't fun. It feels like grief. Bryan ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 00:08:04 -0500 From: "Jim L'Hommedieu \(Lama\)" Subject: Re: Travelogue (those of a nervous disposition please avert your eyes ;-) I agree about Joni's current, wabi-like voice acting as the anti-curlique. Gees, I was hopin' you weigh in with some comments on TRAVELOGUE. Did I ever tell you that several times when you were uns*bbed (or lurking?), I used your line (with attribution) " makes music very well, indeed. As well as human being are capable of making it." I think you used it in reference to Louis Armstrong. Fred Simon said, >>>>>> If, for the sake of argument, we accept that Mendoza has swamped her songs in treacle (and, for the most part, I don't agree), then couldn't Joni's craggy voice be viewed as the anti-treacle that balances it all? Same with Wayne's quirky commentary. >Azeem in London >NP: Shawn Colvin - Whole New You (what a great record this is!) Now that's something I can endorse unequivocally! In fact, I'll see your endorsement and raise you one ... it's a stone masterpiece, as is its predecessor, A Few Small Repairs. Music just doesn't get any better. - - -Fred ------------------------------ End of onlyJMDL Digest V2002 #388 ********************************* ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she? (http://www.siquomb.com/siquomb.cfm)