From: les@jmdl.com (onlyJMDL Digest) To: onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Subject: onlyJMDL Digest V2002 #379 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/onlyjoni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com Unsubscribe: mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe onlyJMDL Digest Friday, December 6 2002 Volume 2002 : Number 379 Sign up now for JoniFest 2003! http://www.jonifest.com ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: blue's clues ["hell" ] Travelogue - Wow! ["Stephen Toogood" ] THAT C&S SONG [] Re: My ideas on Joni's statue [Little Bird ] RE: blue's clues ["Kate Bennett" ] Re: JMDL Digest V2002 #549 [Aerchak@aol.com] Re: JMDL Digest V2002 #549 [Aerchak@aol.com] Re: THAT C&S SONG [KJHSF@aol.com] Re: JMDL Digest V2002 #549 [Aerchak@aol.com] AZEEM & ERIC [] Saskatoon gets cold in winter [Sarah Gibb ] Re: Travelogue - thumbs down I'm afraid [AzeemAK@aol.com] smokin ["Kate Bennett" ] Re: Spin Magazine ["Stephen Toogood" ] Re: My ideas on Joni's statue [Sarah Gibb ] Re: THAT C&S SONG [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: THAT C&S SONG [AzeemAK@aol.com] We love our lovin' [Little Bird ] Dylan and joni: Idiot Wind [Patti Witten ] Joni & Dylan [Little Bird ] Re: Dylan and joni: Idiot Wind ["Adam Mulvey" ] Re: THAT C&S SONG ["Adam Mulvey" ] just wondering. [ROSCOE1TC@aol.com] Re: Dylan and joni: Idiot Wind ["Adam Mulvey" ] re: rolling thunder, etal [Bruce Kimerer ] Re: Saskatoon gets cold in winter [Murphycopy@aol.com] Re: Gregg Cagno's Holiday CD - "River" cover! ["Adam Mulvey" ] Re: People's Parties [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: Note to Smurph, and everybody at jmdl =?ISO-8859-1?B?oChuamMgd29ydGggbWVudGlvbmluZyk=?= [] Re: Gregg Cagno's Holiday CD - "River" cover! [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: Dylan and joni: Idiot Wind [David Sadowski ] Re: Joni & Dylan [David Sadowski ] Re: Dylan and joni: Idiot Wind [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: rolling thunder, etal [David Sadowski ] Re: joni's smoking ["Mark or Travis" ] Re: re:Edgar Allen Poe ["Mark or Travis" ] Re: Travelogue-thumbs down [Catherine McKay ] Re: smokin ["Mark or Travis" ] Re: joni's smoking [Catherine McKay ] Re: Reviews of Joni - In General - Travelogue specifically [Catherine McK] Re: re:Edgar Allen Poe ["mia ortlieb" ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 7 Dec 2002 10:29:29 +1300 From: "hell" Subject: Re: blue's clues Kate wrote: > i agree FTR has james all over it but that doesn't exclude blue from being > about him too, ...blue is a song about being IN a relationship as opposed to > being written in the wake of one (like FTR)... i bet she wrote blue during > her recording of blue or just before ..we know she was incredibly > emotionally fragile at this time which i can imagine her relationship with > james played a part in... > > i don't know anything about david blue or his relationship with joni but it > sure doesn't seem to be joni's style to be so obvious...(she wrote her song > to graham using his nickname willy, i see blue as her sad nickname for > james...whoever it is for, its a deeply hurting in the middle or heading > towards the end of a relationship love song.... I agree Kate - I've always thought Blue was about James too, despite the "facts" that FTR is the JT album, and that this song is really about David Blue. JT was a heavy drug user in those days (and for a long time afterwards) which I'm sure Joni found hard to deal with. I'd quote from his biography, but I've lent it to someone in Milwaukee ;o) - which is only fair, since she gave it to me in the first place! And there's the song he wrote which (to me) corroborates this theory: from Love Has Brought Me Around: When my sky was full of gray And my day was full of blue There was nothing I could do To see myself through Now my head is full of springtime And my heart is full of you Good-bye lonely blue It shall all come true Miss November I detect a frown Close your eyes and turn it upside down Remembering that Joni was born in November.... Hell ___________________________________ "To have great poets, there must be great audiences too." - Walt Whitman Hell's Home Page - NEW & IMPROVED! http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~hell/index.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 21:11:03 -0000 From: "Stephen Toogood" Subject: Travelogue - Wow! Okay I've had Travelougue for over a week now so I thought I'd give a little review! On first listening I wasn't quite sure what to think but I knew it wasn't bad which surprised me because I was really expecting the worst after BSN which I still don't like (not her best moment). Her voice seems to have improved which was a shock because like Azeem I was expecting some kind of croak. So I think BSN is good in the way which it has prepared her for this album.She may have lost some high notes and some power but she still has so much style. This really does improve with more listens. When I first heard THOSL I dismissed it as a contrived failure. It is now probably my favourate album of all time and it took about 6 months to realise Hejira isn't rubbish at all but pure genious. Okay so Trav isn't new material but Joni can do this because her music doesn't date like most peoples. There is not a bad track here and I even prefer some of these versions than the originals (please don't shoot me)! Her delivery on 'The Dawntreader' is amazing and I never even used to like 'God Must Be A Boogie Man' but the real surprises are the songs from WTRF (still I do prefer the original of 'Chinese Cafe'). They always sounded dated to me but here they have been brought to life. I think this is how Joni itended them to be. 'You Dream Flat Tires' is sexy, 'Love' seems to hold greater meaning and Herbie's piano playing (I'm sure it's him) on 'Be Cool' is superb. Her more 'hushed' version of ' Woodstock' is really growing on me and the more I listen to 'For The Roses' the more I can here the melody coming through and the ending really is worth waiting for. The music really is used to express words which sounds odd at parts but I think it will sound more at ease with more listens. The tapping of nails sound really goes well on 'For The Roses'. Oh and lets not forget her art-work. Those paintings really send out thoughts. The real dissapointment apart from no new material is the fact she doesn't play an intrument on the album. On a whole though I think this could be one of her best recordings. Best listened to in the evening with the lights down low. Joni you've done it again. Steve N.P: 'Amelia' (Trav vers) - ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Friday, December 06, 2002 12:11 AM Subject: Travelogue - thumbs down I'm afraid > Oh dear! I was kind of dreading this. I finally bought it today and am > playing disc one as I type this. Her voice isn't in as bad shape as I'd > feared (then again I'd imagined a deathly croak, perhaps as an insurance > policy, knowing that it couldn't be quite that shot) - but I still find it > painful to listen to. Joni's voice sounds parched and exhausted, and I'm not > hearing this marvellously expressive instrument that others have been > hearing. It's like watching an old and frail person staggering along a > cliff, I'm almost holding my breath. And her variations on the melodies > remind me of Bowie's David Live album, where he sounded as if he was just > doodling around, singing any note that fit except the note used in the > original recording - but not, to my ears, in such a way as to add anything to > my understanding or experience of the songs. > > And the arrangements? Sorry dear friends, but I can't stand them! Slouching > Towards Bethlehem is playing now, and I find the arrangement pompous and > over-emphatic, almost too literal in places. Mr Mendoza is a master of > over-egging the pudding, something I'd clocked with BSN, but there things > were relatively restrained (I now realise!). He's really excelled himself > here, laying it all on with a trowel, filling all the gaps, everything > sounding too busy. Oh lordy, after this I will get out Don Juan's Reckless > Daughter and marvel at the exquisite orchestration on Paprika Plains... > > [Sire of Sorrow - never liked this anyway; arrangement not bad - until the > chorus - yuck!] > > I also have a problem with the collision of voice and arrangements: the > frailty of the former juxtaposed with the bombast of the latter results in > sheer bathos. I can only add my voice to those who have yearned for a > stripped-down Joni offering. I acknowledge that this is only a first > listening and all that (I wouldn't bet against it being my last either), but > my overwhelming sense is that this album will come to be seen as a folie de > grandeur of epic proportions. > > [For The Roses is excruciating - oh Joni!] > > If I could wave a Joni-only magic wand and make three wishes for the next > album, they would be: > > 1. Thank Mr Mendoza for his undoubted hard work, care and attention and > send him on his way, replacing him with a VERY small band. (And ask him if > he'd like to take the VG8 with him :-) > > 2. Get some help with those poor, ravaged vocal chords of yours - whether > or not that means (whisper it) g*ving *p sm*king. As someone on the list > very sensibly said, any singer, good or bad, old or young, trained or > untrained, can benefit from a singing coach. I would be so delighted to hear > evidence of the decline in her voice being arrested, perhaps even some > clawing back of ground lost in terms of power and flexibility. > > 3. Write some songs! > > Azeem in London, dismayed to find that my main reaction at the end of disc > one was relief that it was over. > > PS I just discovered, when I tried to send this without properly filling in > the addressee bit, that there doesn't appear to be anyone on AOL with the > username joni@aol.com - what are you waiting for?? ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 16:32:05 -0500 From: Subject: THAT C&S SONG Here I go again, writing about HELP ME. (I had used the "H" word as the "subject" and so those posts got bounced.) Anyone out there as big a fan of HM as I am? Delightfully perverse as she is, Joni has sort of "disowned" her only Top 10 hit, claiming it's an "ingenue" song. At the risk of incurring the wrath of our Joan, I don't think it IS that. The woman of HP has been around the block a few times; and I'd love to hear the mature Joni tackle it (shades of "Falling in love again / Never wanted to..."). I think it's a brilliant song: short, pithy, economical, universal, lighter than air. And "'Cause I've seen some hot hot blazes / Come down to smoke and ash" gets me every time. If she ever does do an album with her excellent jazz combo (pretty please, Joni?), wouldn't SMOKE AND ASH be an apt title? MICHAEL in Toronto ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 13:39:21 -0800 (PST) From: Little Bird Subject: Re: My ideas on Joni's statue >>>I prefer the collage idea because the likeness would be hard to capture, and then we would all be bitching that it doesn't look like her, plus then there's the whole issue of what era Joni do you portray, etc.>>> This I agree with. I was thinking about this just the other day and figured it wasn't really what the committee wanted, but to me makes the most sense. As Jack mentioned, the biggest issue is which Joni does one pick to use as a statue? Some prefer the younger Joni, some prefer the older, some like her smoking, some like her playing a guitar, some want her at the piano, some want her naked on a rock. Joni, the mortal human being, would be tricky to immortalize in any one form or position. One, because she has been so many people over the decades, played so many instruments and worn so many styles of clothes and, two, not everyone will agree with the chosen form. Locking her in time in any one image would be tricky and controversial. I like the idea of the lyrics and a representative piece of sculptural art, though nothing too abstract. Joni's songs will outlast any of her chosen incarnations over the decades. - -Andrew Merk54@aol.com wrote: In a message dated 12/5/2002 7:54:17 PM Eastern Standard Time, walterphil@excite.com writes: Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 13:48:39 -0800 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: RE: blue's clues yep, even more blue's clues! thanks hell! hell >>And there's the song he wrote which (to me) corroborates this theory: from Love Has Brought Me Around: When my sky was full of gray And my day was full of blue There was nothing I could do To see myself through Now my head is full of springtime And my heart is full of you Good-bye lonely blue It shall all come true Miss November I detect a frown Close your eyes and turn it upside down<< ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 17:03:00 EST From: Aerchak@aol.com Subject: Re: JMDL Digest V2002 #549 I am sad to say that I haven't heard Travelogue yet because a certain person who will remain unnamed has forbidden me to purchase it because he is sending it to me for my birthday. Said birthday was December 1st and even though I ate Thanksgiving dinner at said friend's house (which was lovely), I did not receive my birthday gift. I did receive last year's Xmas gift and housewarming which was a beautiful oil painting done by said friend so I am not really complaining. However I am unable to listen to Travelogue in my car as said friend is doing on a daily basis. Andrea in NY ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 17:04:22 EST From: Aerchak@aol.com Subject: Re: JMDL Digest V2002 #549 I think Chinese Cafe will probably be my favorite when I get the CD ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 17:10:04 EST From: KJHSF@aol.com Subject: Re: THAT C&S SONG In a message dated 12/6/2002 4:32:54 PM Eastern Standard Time, mtotzke@gosympatico.ca writes: > Anyone out there as big a fan of HM as I am? > Here is my little Help Me story: When I was a little boy, my younger brother died unexpectedly and I suffered from a sort of post-traumatic anxiety about 6 months after the event. I was unable to sleep at night and would remain awake listening to the a.m. radio. And, to this day, I can remember all the tunes that were popular at the time: Popcorn, Eres Tu, Seasons in the Sun, Sundown...and Help Me. All those songs still give me the heebie-jeebies when I hear them, because I am instantly transported back to that time when I was scared, unable to sleep and filled with sadness. That is, except for Help Me. When I was in college, I kept thinking about the song Help Me for some reason and on a lark decided to confront this demon reminder of my past. I picked up Court and Spark, and gave it a listen and was absolutely transfixed. And Help Me transformed for me into a feel-good song. Amazingly, it is the only one of the top 40 songs from that time that does not carry with it a bad feeling. In fact, it is one of those tunes that I love to crank in the car when I am feeling extra-extra good. Joni sounds so in love--her voice rarely has that same quality to it. and the band is rockin! Ken ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 17:13:38 EST From: Aerchak@aol.com Subject: Re: JMDL Digest V2002 #549 Walt, Thanks for your words. Andrea in NY ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 17:41:40 -0500 From: Subject: AZEEM & ERIC Azeem's original post and Eric's reply sure have stirred up the pot, yes? Personally, I'm not incensed by either, Fact is, I agree/disagree with them both. I agree that Joni's voice is rough in spots (particularly in SLOUCHING and JUDGEMENT). I don't agree that it doesn't have its new charms. I agree that Joni should quit smoking (and I'm a smoker) -- but mainly because I want her to live forever (and yeah, her voice might improve). I don't agree that the orchestrations add nothing to the songs. I do agree that I'd like to hear a stripped-down Joni album next. I don't agree that Joni's variations in phrasing add nothing new. I do agree that FOR THE ROSES is a bit much -- although it is growing on me (I love someone's earlier comment that it has a Nora Desmond quality!). I don't agree that the choir in SLOUCHING deserves a "Yuck!" (although I did at first). I do agree that Joni could use a vocal coach (she herself has said she doesn't take proper care of her voice). I don't agree that a negative opinion should be met with contempt (which, I'm afraid, often happens here). I do agree that a work of art like T'LOG deserves several listens before judgment is passed (which too damn many critics don't seem to "get"). I don't agree that Azeem shouldn't feel free to have his say. I do agree that people don't seem to want to allow Joni to be 59. I don't agree that Eric shouldn't feel free to have his say. Think of me as Faye Dunaway in the slapping scene in CHINATOWN (my favourite movie ever): "I DO agree! I DON'T agree! I DO agree!..." MICHAEL in Toronto ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 06 Dec 2002 16:40:24 -0700 From: Sarah Gibb Subject: Saskatoon gets cold in winter Lori, Saskatoon's climate basically ranges from minus 40 C to plus 40 C. The norm is around minus 20 in the winter, and we have long winters - November until May sometimes. June is warmer, July and August are mid-30s, sometimes 40. September and October are the only months I would call normal (being from the UK). The spookiest thing I ever saw was trees with no leaves on them, and no flowers anywhere, in June. Makes you think you're on another planet. People who were raised here are tough as a result, Joni Mitchell included, no doubt Sarah Date: Fri, 06 Dec 2002 07:39:46 -0800 From: "Lori Fye" Subject: Re: joni's smoking > Saskatoon gets cold in winter. You know, this has already crossed my mind. How warm does it get in summer? Will Joni be overdressed, or underdressed? ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 18:09:52 EST From: AzeemAK@aol.com Subject: Re: Travelogue - thumbs down I'm afraid In a message dated 06/12/2002 08:10:52 GMT Standard Time, ewwt@juno.com writes: << I always love it when a critical reviewer pans an album admittedly before listening to the first half of it. Congratulations Azeem! I hereby present you with the short-attention span award for reviewer bias. >> Right, sarcasm alert duly heeded. "Critical reviewer"? Hardly. I was posting a few thoughts on what I was hearing. You may want to dignify that with the term review, but I wouldn't. Do you think I don't know how silly it would be to submit a review of a record I hadn't listened to fully? However, that isn't what I was doing. I was not trying to pass my comments off as a fully-fledged review. As you may have noticed, a number of people posted their responses to what they'd listened to so far, just as I did - "I've listened to Disc 1 and I love it, can't wait for Disc 2", and so on. Do you think they should have withheld their thoughts until they'd listened to the whole thing? I doubt it. I certainly don't. That's not what this list is about. I don't know what point are you trying to make by this little dig. I stand by every word I wrote. So there it is. I didn't like Disc 1 at all. Big deal, who gives a toss? My comments are as valid (or invalid) as anyone else's. I will listen to disc 2 soon, and who knows, maybe I'll like it. I would be amazed if her voice has miraculously perked up, but maybe the arrangements will sit better with me. There aren't any songs on disc 2 I already dislike. If I end up liking it, I can assure you I will not hold back from acknowledging this. << PS Perhaps your 'pain' stems from a deep fear of getting older? >> No comment. May I suggest you live and live, and let me say what I want to say without having a dig because it doesn't coincide with your views - and I have to conclude that's what you're doing, otherwise you'd presumably have taken issue with anyone else who posted comments before listening to the whole thing. Azeem in London ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 15:18:14 -0800 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: smokin > "Lori Fye" >wasn't there > an interview in which Joni mentioned that an Indian or shaman told her > that her smoking keeps her "grounded" or keeps her "from > disappearing"? (Does anyone else remember this?) kate du nord >>I know this will sound like gobbledygook to some, while to others it is simple and understood. To me, it makes perfect sense.<< me too, i understand this completely & when i was younger, less grounded, i feel that indeed smoking helped to ground me... kate du south ******************************************** Kate Bennett: www.katebennett.com Sponsored by Polysonics/Atlantis Sound Labs Over the Moon- "bringing the melancholy world of twilight to life almost like magic" All Music Guide ******************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 23:10:17 -0000 From: "Stephen Toogood" Subject: Re: Spin Magazine I'm glad someone mentioned Tori's new album because it is so good. And with 18 tracks which are all highly listenable! It's a shame not many people got it though. > From their Albums of the Year list: > > #15 Tori Amos - Scarlett's Walk. Not since Joni Mitchell drew a map of > Canada on a cocktail napkin has a singer/songwriter found this much poetry > in geography. > > Eagle Eye Jerry ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 06 Dec 2002 17:38:19 -0700 From: Sarah Gibb Subject: Re: My ideas on Joni's statue Jack, I like your idea of the glass panel with her lyrics on it. Some of her songs are pure poetry to me, better read or spoken than sung, in my opinion. It would be good to include some of them. Might cost a lot though to have all that carved or etched into glass. But it's certainly an idea worth pursuing. Maybe a glass panel behind the bench? Sarah Date: Fri, 06 Dec 2002 16:06:18 -0500 From: Merk54@aol.com Subject: My ideas on Joni's statue I don't know how practical glass would be, but I thought about having a large glass screen, maybe with a bronze in front of it. Etched on the glass would be the lyrics to Hejira, or some other song of choice. They could ask Joni what song to use, conduct a fan poll, or allow people making donations to vote on their choice of songs. Jack ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 18:51:07 EST From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: THAT C&S SONG In a message dated 12/06/2002 5:10:57 PM Eastern Standard Time, KJHSF@aol.com writes: > I can remember all the tunes that were popular at the time: > Popcorn, Eres Tu, Seasons in the Sun, Sundown...and Help Me. Ken, that was a very moving story - and it's funny, because I always associate HM with "Midnight At The Oasis", the Maria Muldaur hit. Seems like they were always playing, and I loved them both. I don't consider HM to be an "ingenue" song at all. Unless you believe that you stop falling in love when you're young, and I don't know who would admit that! And doncha just LOVE the sound of that intro to HM - wow! Bob ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 19:01:45 EST From: AzeemAK@aol.com Subject: Re: THAT C&S SONG In a message dated 06/12/2002 21:33:03 GMT Standard Time, mtotzke@gosympatico.ca writes: << Anyone out there as big a fan of HM as I am? Delightfully perverse as she is, Joni has sort of "disowned" her only Top 10 hit, claiming it's an "ingenue" song.>> Me! Me! It's in my top ten Joni songs, top five maybe. It is a perfect song, regardless of what Joni says - what would she know anyway? ;-) << I think it's a brilliant song: short, pithy, economical, universal, lighter than air. And "'Cause I've seen some hot hot blazes / Come down to smoke and ash" gets me every time. >> Do you know I've never noticed that line?? You're right, it's fantastic. Azeem in London NP: Coldplay - live on Later, sounding pretty good ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 16:53:23 -0800 (PST) From: Little Bird Subject: We love our lovin' I've always loved Help Me. It's such a simple philosophy and so pervasive - being worried about falling in love for fear of commitment and compromising independent freedom for the sake of togetherness It's something I've struggled with lately. Being 25 and being involved in a serious relationship is a real learning experience. It's often a struggle for someone who has a very driven individualistic streak to make compromises for the sake of unity. "We love our loving, but not like we love our freedom..." It's always a fear that it may boil down to that in the end. The verse about dancing "with the lady with a hole in her stocking" always sort of escaped me but I love its snaky melody and that long vocal bridge - "didn't it feel goooooood..." k.d. lang did a lovely version of it at the Tribute concert on TNT. A friend in Alabama taped it for me, since it was never aired in Canada, unfortunately. - -Andrew in Ottawa Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 06 Dec 2002 19:48:56 -0400 From: Patti Witten Subject: Dylan and joni: Idiot Wind Someone once told me that Dylan''s "Idiot Wind" (1975, Blood On The Tracks) was about Joni. My apologies if this has already been covered. > I woke up on the roadside, daydreamin' 'bout the way things sometimes are > Visions of your chestnut mare shoot through my head and are makin' me see > stars. > You hurt the ones that I love best and cover up the truth with lies. > One day you'll be in the ditch, flies buzzin' around your eyes, > Blood on your saddle. Not very flattering! Is it a "true" legend? here's the rest of the lyric http://www.bobdylan.com/songs/idiot.html Patti - -- http://pattiwitten.com New CD "Sycamore Tryst" http://sycamoretryst.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 17:08:19 -0800 (PST) From: Little Bird Subject: Joni & Dylan I have not ever been remotely interested in Bob Dylan. I can't name a single song he wrote. He just strikes me as someone I won't relate to, lyrically or musically, not that I don't respect his musical contribution to the world, which I hear has been quite significant. When I saw Joni perform in 1998, when she toured with Dylan, I was surrounded by hundreds of old Dylan boys. Only a handful of people were there to see Joni, unfortunately, and she got a very unflattering reception. People were talking through her set and walking around. I was very pissed off. So was Joni. Half way through the set she crossed her arms and went to the back of the stage to pout in the shadows while the band played. She looked most unimpressed. When Dylan came on the reception was totally different. People were fixated and cheering loudly. I felt I had got my $60 worth and left before he finished his first song, making sure the Dylan fans beside me who had gabbed all through Joni's set were appropriately inconvenienced by my departure: "excuse me, coming through, pardon me, excuse me, was that your toe? oh well." - -Andrew in Ottawa Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 7 Dec 2002 01:30:36 -0000 From: "Adam Mulvey" Subject: Re: Dylan and joni: Idiot Wind Myth would have it that this song is about his wife Sara, but Dylan himself is contemtuous of such literal readings of his songs. Adam - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Patti Witten" To: "onlyJONI List" Sent: Friday, December 06, 2002 11:48 PM Subject: Dylan and joni: Idiot Wind > Someone once told me that Dylan''s "Idiot Wind" (1975, Blood On The Tracks) > was about Joni. My apologies if this has already been covered. > > > I woke up on the roadside, daydreamin' 'bout the way things sometimes are > > Visions of your chestnut mare shoot through my head and are makin' me see > > stars. > > You hurt the ones that I love best and cover up the truth with lies. > > One day you'll be in the ditch, flies buzzin' around your eyes, > > Blood on your saddle. > > Not very flattering! Is it a "true" legend? > > here's the rest of the lyric > http://www.bobdylan.com/songs/idiot.html > > Patti > -- > http://pattiwitten.com > New CD "Sycamore Tryst" > http://sycamoretryst.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 7 Dec 2002 01:34:29 -0000 From: "Adam Mulvey" Subject: Re: We love our lovin' The way she sings "And I've seen some hard, hard places come down to - smoke and ash" is truly gorgeous (that "smoke and ash" particularly... why is that? Enunciation? Phrasing? Because I've a few beers inside me?) Adam - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Little Bird" To: Sent: Saturday, December 07, 2002 12:53 AM Subject: We love our lovin' > I've always loved Help Me. It's such a simple philosophy and so pervasive - being worried about falling in love for fear of commitment and compromising independent freedom for the sake of togetherness It's something I've struggled with lately. Being 25 and being involved in a serious relationship is a real learning experience. It's often a struggle for someone who has a very driven individualistic streak to make compromises for the sake of unity. > > "We love our loving, but not like we love our freedom..." It's always a fear that it may boil down to that in the end. > > The verse about dancing "with the lady with a hole in her stocking" always sort of escaped me but I love its snaky melody and that long vocal bridge - "didn't it feel goooooood..." > > k.d. lang did a lovely version of it at the Tribute concert on TNT. A friend in Alabama taped it for me, since it was never aired in Canada, unfortunately. > > -Andrew in Ottawa > Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 7 Dec 2002 01:40:39 -0000 From: "Adam Mulvey" Subject: Re: THAT C&S SONG > << I think it's a brilliant song: short, pithy, economical, universal, > lighter than air. > And "'Cause I've seen some hot hot blazes / Come down to smoke and ash" gets > me every time. >> > > Do you know I've never noticed that line?? You're right, it's fantastic. I always thought it was "hard hard places!" Ignorant I am. But why is it so great? It's the "smoke and ash". She just sounds so *passionate* about it - bitter, but passionate - "I've seen a few things, and I've seen a few dreams gone sour, and I've had to accept it; but man, it churns me up inside". And I thought it was just me that was so enraptured by this bit of the song! I tell you, I could get to like this Internet thingummy..... Adam > > Azeem in London > NP: Coldplay - live on Later, sounding pretty good ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 20:43:58 EST From: ROSCOE1TC@aol.com Subject: just wondering. i read these posts only sporadically, but enjoy most of them when i do. my point is, i may have missed this topic if it has ever been addressed. what about the existence of parallels between joni's music/persona and that of p.j. harvey? maybe i'm crazy tonight. maybe all they have in common is that, each in her own time, each of them broke boundaries, set new standards, and impressed the hell out of me.... :-) trying to post, terry ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 7 Dec 2002 01:50:17 -0000 From: "Adam Mulvey" Subject: Re: Dylan and joni: Idiot Wind > Myth would have it that this song is about his wife Sara, but Dylan himself > is contemtuous of such literal readings of his songs. He might also be "contemtuous" of people who can't spell. Sorry. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 7 Dec 2002 01:56:50 -0000 From: "Adam Mulvey" Subject: Re: Saskatoon gets cold in winter > Lori, Saskatoon's climate basically ranges from minus 40 C to plus 40 > C. The norm is around minus 20 in the winter, and we have long > winters - November until May sometimes. June is warmer, July and > August are mid-30s, sometimes 40. September and October are the only > months I would call normal (being from the UK). I guess what makes 'River' such a great song is not only the sense of longing, but also the sense of *coooold*! I mean, if it was me, I could have written, " I wish I had a river that I could sail away on". Or even "float away on". But "skate away on"? Now that's genius. Adam ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 20:58:54 EST From: Rusty10113@aol.com Subject: Re: We love our lovin' hi...just wondering, but isn't that line "...hard, hot blazes, come down to smoke and ash..." meaning some hot romances that fizzle into nothingness? have always loved Help Me also, I think it's Joni's happiest, most upbeat, sing along in the car type song! my earliest memory of Joni is buying Court & Spark, and cranking it up in in my car with the sun roof open, and being set free! mitch in nyc ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 21:06:08 EST From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Gregg Cagno's Holiday CD - "River" cover! In a message dated 12/06/2002 8:58:06 PM Eastern Standard Time, adammulvey@blueyonder.co.uk writes: > I guess what makes 'River' such a great song is not only the sense of > longing, but also the sense of *coooold*! I mean, if it was me, I could > have written, " I wish I had a river that I could sail away on". Or even > "float away on". But "skate away on"? Now that's genius. > > Speaking of River, did I miss a post from Gregg Cagno? His holiday CD is out now and available from his website www.greggcagno.com. Those of us that have heard Gregg know of his talent. And now you can pay with Paypal!! Whoo-Hoo! I ordered mine tonight so I can have some new holiday music to make stringing those fecking lights bearable! ;~) Bob, who also heard Barry Manilow's version of River this week and was NOT impressed... ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 7 Dec 2002 02:16:35 -0000 From: "Adam Mulvey" Subject: People's Parties > have always loved Help Me also, I think it's Joni's happiest, most upbeat, > sing along in the car type song! my earliest memory of Joni is buying Court & > Spark, and cranking it up in in my car with the sun roof open, and being set > free! Y'know, isn't everything about Court and Spark like that? Car on a Hill has that magnificent line - "Y'know, he make's friends easy, he's not like me, I wait for judgement, anxiously" - which comes slap bang in the middle of that gorgeous, laid-back melody, and makes you think "Yes!" and punch the air in recognition, without allowing the song to get maudlin in any way. Such a hard trick to pull off. I have to say, it's People's Parties that does it for me. Tiny little snippet of a song, but how great is it? "I'm just living on nerves and feelings, with a weak and a lazy mind, and coming to people's parties fumbling deaf dumb and blind...." It is, if I may, one of the all-time Drunk Man Sings Songs In Tuneless But Meaningful Way numbers. or maybe that's just too much information. I'll just go and sober up now.... Adam ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 06 Dec 2002 22:22:05 -0400 From: Bruce Kimerer Subject: re: rolling thunder, etal David wrote: "It's a pretty good buy... two discs plus a fat booklet and (for now) a two-track DVD for something like $19.95. It's just Bob with a few duets with Joan Baez and (I think) Scarlet Rivera. Sound quality is excellent, the performances are great... this comes right at the end of Bob's very creative mid-70s period. Good stuff." Thanks David...is it full of "Desire" stuff though? Joey, Hurricane, Isis, etc -- it's far from my favorite Dylan album; big disappointment to me after Blood on the Tracks. And as for 'can die-hard Dylan fans be die-hard Joni fans,' gee, I never even considered that question. I always assumed that everyone was like me, and that if you love Joni you'd have to love Dylan as well. Though they are 2 very different sorts of lyricists, and their music stems from 2 different traditions, their intelligence, integrity, and sheer brilliance places them both on the same artistic level in my eyes. And, my 2 cents on the statue: though it's fun to imagine this statue or that statue, the truth is (as someone mentioned the other day) that figurative memorial statues are usually pretty dreadful -- because they are art made by committee. (Ask Joni's views on that!) To get a worthwhile piece of art, they'd have to commission a great artist and let her do what she wants. Someone like Louise Bourgeois. Bruce ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 06 Dec 2002 21:19:19 -0500 From: Murphycopy@aol.com Subject: Re: Saskatoon gets cold in winter Adam writes: << if it was me, I could have written, " I wish I had a river that I could sail away on". Or even "float away on". But "skate away on"? Now that's genius. >> I thought it was Canadian! --Bob ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 7 Dec 2002 02:21:35 -0000 From: "Adam Mulvey" Subject: Re: Gregg Cagno's Holiday CD - "River" cover! > Bob, who also heard Barry Manilow's version of River this week and was NOT impressed... Yeah, ha ha, very funny. This is just your idea of a sick joke, right? Oh, for shame - as if the Ally McBeal thing wasn't bad enough.... Adam (who hasn't conceived of murder on such a scale since Mariah Carey's assault on Harry Nilsson's 'Without You' first battered his eardrums....) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 18:24:12 -0800 (PST) From: Little Bird Subject: Re: Saskatoon gets cold in winter >> Now that's genius. >> > I thought it was Canadian! Same thing! - -Andrew in Ottawa Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 21:28:24 EST From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: People's Parties In a message dated 12/06/2002 9:17:10 PM Eastern Standard Time, adammulvey@blueyonder.co.uk writes: > I have to say, it's People's Parties that does it > for me. "Down To You" for me, but Court & Spark flows so seamlessly from start to finish it's impossible to pick 1 track. Like I've said before, once I hear those piano chords that kick off the title track, I'm locked in for the whole ride, and it's not uncommon that I want to hear it again...and again. Bob ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 06 Dec 2002 21:32:43 -0500 From: Murphycopy@aol.com Subject: Re: Note to Smurph, and everybody at jmdl =?ISO-8859-1?B?oChuamMgd29ydGggbWVudGlvbmluZyk=?= Dear Walt, The JMDL ain't the same without you, so get that computer working. I'm sorry you haven't been feeling well, but glad you're doing better. And hearing from you has made my (otherwise dreary and cold December) day! XO, --Bob ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 21:33:09 EST From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: Gregg Cagno's Holiday CD - "River" cover! In a message dated 12/06/2002 9:22:01 PM Eastern Standard Time, adammulvey@blueyonder.co.uk writes: > Yeah, ha ha, very funny. This is just your idea of a sick joke, right? Oh, > for shame - as if the Ally McBeal thing wasn't bad enough.... > > No...not a joke at all. Barry's latest is called "A Christmas Gift Of Love" and includes the usual suspects, plus River, plus the title song which he wrote, plus "My Favorite Things"....since when is THAT a Christmas song? Anyway, he obviously has no clue what "River" is about...he sings it like it's a little pop ditty. That being said...Barry was pretty good in his day. He had a number of great tunes, PLUS he did play piano for what famous bathhouse singer? Your cue, Murphy... Bob ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 06 Dec 2002 20:53:20 -0600 From: David Sadowski Subject: Re: Dylan and joni: Idiot Wind Nah, the song is about Sara and the breakup of Dylan's marriage. On the other hand, didn't Neil Young do a song called "Stupid Girl" that some people thought was about Joni? Patti Witten wrote: >Someone once told me that Dylan''s "Idiot Wind" (1975, Blood On The Tracks) >was about Joni. My apologies if this has already been covered. > > > >>I woke up on the roadside, daydreamin' 'bout the way things sometimes are >>Visions of your chestnut mare shoot through my head and are makin' me see >>stars. >>You hurt the ones that I love best and cover up the truth with lies. >>One day you'll be in the ditch, flies buzzin' around your eyes, >>Blood on your saddle. >> >> > >Not very flattering! Is it a "true" legend? > >here's the rest of the lyric >http://www.bobdylan.com/songs/idiot.html > >Patti ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 06 Dec 2002 20:55:40 -0600 From: David Sadowski Subject: Re: Joni & Dylan Didn't happen here in Chicago... the fans loved her set. Little Bird wrote: >I have not ever been remotely interested in Bob Dylan. I can't name a single song he wrote. He just strikes me as someone I won't relate to, lyrically or musically, not that I don't respect his musical contribution to the world, which I hear has been quite significant. > >When I saw Joni perform in 1998, when she toured with Dylan, I was surrounded by hundreds of old Dylan boys. Only a handful of people were there to see Joni, unfortunately, and she got a very unflattering reception. People were talking through her set and walking around. I was very pissed off. So was Joni. Half way through the set she crossed her arms and went to the back of the stage to pout in the shadows while the band played. She looked most unimpressed. > >When Dylan came on the reception was totally different. People were fixated and cheering loudly. I felt I had got my $60 worth and left before he finished his first song, making sure the Dylan fans beside me who had gabbed all through Joni's set were appropriately inconvenienced by my departure: "excuse me, coming through, pardon me, excuse me, was that your toe? oh well." > >-Andrew in Ottawa >Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 22:00:38 EST From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: Dylan and joni: Idiot Wind In a message dated 12/06/2002 9:54:05 PM Eastern Standard Time, dsadowski@ameritech.net writes: > On the other hand, didn't Neil Young do a song called "Stupid Girl" that > some people thought was about Joni? > > It's not...but "Sweet Joni" is. Only he never released it. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 06 Dec 2002 21:08:36 -0600 From: David Sadowski Subject: Re: rolling thunder, etal Track Listing for Disc 1 1) Tonight I`ll Be Staying Here With You 7) Mr. Tambourine Man 2) It Ain`t Me, Babe 8) Simple Twist Of Fate 3) A Hard Rain`s A-Gonna Fall 9) Blowin` In The Wind 4) The Lonesome Death Of Hattie Carroll 10) Mama, You Been On My Mind 5) Romance In Durango 11) I Shall Be Released 6) Isis Track Listing for Disc 2 1) It`s All Over Now, Baby Blue 7) Hurricane 2) Love Minus Zero/No Limit 8) One More Cup Of Coffee (Valley Below) 3) Tangled Up In Blue 9) Sara 4) The Water Is Wide 10) Just Like A Woman 5) It Takes A Lot To Laugh, It Takes A Train To Cry 11) Knockin` On Heaven`s Door 6) Oh, Sister Track Listing for Disc 3 (DVD) 1) Tangled Up In Blue 3) Isis 2) Isis While Dylan's most recent records of the time are well represented, these recordings were made about a year after he recorded Desire, and with a white-hot band, so they are generally improvements. And the setting put Dylan at ease and he loosened up a lot more than he had in earlier tours. Bruce Kimerer wrote: >David wrote: >"It's a pretty good buy... two discs plus a fat booklet and (for now) a >two-track DVD for something like $19.95. It's just Bob with a few duets >with Joan Baez and (I think) Scarlet Rivera. > >Sound quality is excellent, the performances are great... this comes >right at the end of Bob's very creative mid-70s period. Good stuff." > >Thanks David...is it full of "Desire" stuff though? Joey, Hurricane, Isis, >etc -- it's far from my favorite Dylan album; big disappointment to me after >Blood on the Tracks. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 19:30:25 -0800 From: "Mark or Travis" Subject: Re: joni's smoking > You know, this has already crossed my mind. How warm does it get in > summer? Will Joni be overdressed, or underdressed? > There's a sculpture on a busy street corner in the Fremont section of Seattle of a group of people waiting for a bus. It's called 'Waiting for the Interurban'. In the winter time, real people put mufflers, hats, ear-muffs and coats on the sculpted people. I'm sure someone would gladly do the same for Joni. Mark in Seattle ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 19:33:02 -0800 From: "Mark or Travis" Subject: Re: re:Edgar Allen Poe > What about the "raven" curls from Harry's House? Okay, this may be a > stretch........but HOSL is such a wonderful album, filled with so many > literary references. > My thought was 'Some come dark and strange like dying/crows and ravens whistling' from 'Songs to Aging Children Come'. Mark E in Seattle ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 22:39:17 -0500 (EST) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: Travelogue-thumbs down Azeem wrote: > > Subject: Travelogue - thumbs down I'm afraid - --- Laurent Olszer wrote: > > Allow me to congratulate you for your courage to > express your feelings. Ditto from me, Azeem. Your posts are always thoughtful and thought-provoking and you have a right to express your views without fear. Who knows? You may yet change your mind. The first time I heard any of the songs I was kind of disappointed but the whole thing grew on me after a while, and this could happen with you (or maybe not.) I'm still back and forth and up and down on Travelogue. Some pieces I love, others I skip over every time; still others I like one day, don't like the next. I find the overall pace too slow in many places or for too long a period. I find myself skipping over the very popular songs. I'm afraid I'm not much of a fan of Woodstock or The Circle Game in any incarnation. I think I've just heard them both too often. I don't mind the Travelogue version of Woodstock, but I skip The Circle Game every time. I don't care much for the song, now that I'm past 20, and it just takes too long (feet dragging to slow the circles down.) I can't take this version of "For the roses" either - I think I love Joni's guitar too much on that to settle for anything else. On the other hand, Flat Tires is one I never cared for before, but I love the new version - I think it may be my favourite piece on the whole album. Same with Justice/Just Ice. It didn't do much for me before, but I like this one. If I'm in a particularly depressed mood and listen to Travelogue, I just end up crying my eyes out anyway, so listening to it a lot probably ain't a good idea. Not that it's depressing, but I do find it emotionally draining when I'm feeling weak. ===== Catherine Toronto ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 20:00:06 -0800 From: "Mark or Travis" Subject: Re: smokin > It's true a statue of Jimi Hendrix probably would show him with a guitar, > not a needle stuck in his arm to remind future generations of his addiction. There is one on Broadway in Seattle. He's kneeling with the neck of his guitar sticking straight up. It's very dramatic. Mark E in Seattle ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 23:03:10 -0500 (EST) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: joni's smoking --- Lori Fye wrote: > > Saskatoon gets cold in winter. > > You know, this has already crossed my mind. How > warm does it get in > summer? Will Joni be overdressed, or underdressed? > > And about the depiction of her age ... I suppose she could dress in layers, so you could take things off when it got hot! I wonder if there's a "layer" thing for age? (Peel off the wrinkles to reveal the young you underneath - wouldn't that be nice!) ===== Catherine Toronto ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 23:20:35 -0500 (EST) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: Reviews of Joni - In General - Travelogue specifically --- ATaublib@aol.com wrote: > Firstly, I'm new member to this list, so if I'm not > following protocol please > be gentle, I will learn quickly. > > Secondly, and most importantly, I have found after > listening to Joni's works > for these past 30+ years: never judge her work > before listening multiple > times. Like all fine works of art, it takes time to > truly appreciate, and > like fine wine only gets better with age. That's exactly it and that's the problem with reviews. I'm sure the reviewers don't have the luxury of listening to new items at their leisure, so first impressions are it for them. They're on deadline or they've got too many other things to listen to. I often find that the stuff I like on first listen gets old very quickly, whereas other pieces grow on me with time. With Joni, I find I have to listen many times (and most of the time I want to ;). I also find that I have to really focus and listen - Joni isn't background music. I can also listen to her twenty or thirty years after I first heard a particular song or album and still find something fresh and new in it. I can't say the same about too many other artists that I loved thirty years ago. (By the way, welcome to the list.) ===== Catherine Toronto ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 06 Dec 2002 22:40:39 -0600 From: "mia ortlieb" Subject: Re: re:Edgar Allen Poe <> Good catch Mark! Also, could "The Beat of Black Wings" be a reference also? Where are all you Poe experts? I can't remember anything by Poe other than the Raven and the Pit and the Pendulum. Maybe I need to go back to grade school like the record execs should. Mia NPIMH: The Raven -APP _________________________________________________________________ STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ------------------------------ End of onlyJMDL Digest V2002 #379 ********************************* ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she? (http://www.siquomb.com/siquomb.cfm)