From: les@jmdl.com (onlyJMDL Digest) To: onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Subject: onlyJMDL Digest V2002 #376 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/onlyjoni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com Unsubscribe: mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe onlyJMDL Digest Friday, December 6 2002 Volume 2002 : Number 376 Sign up now for JoniFest 2003! http://www.jonifest.com ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: Joni's smoking ["Adam Mulvey" ] amelias [Yael Harlap ] RE: the JMDL community ["Chris Marshall" ] Re: Beside Herself - statue of Joni [Murphycopy@aol.com] joni in stone, to smoke or not to smoke [Yael Harlap ] LAST CHANCE LOST [] Re: Beside Herself - statue of Joni [Murphycopy@aol.com] Re: new Joni DVD = Diltz? ["kakki" ] Re: Joni & Dylan, why didn't it ever happen?? [colin ] Re: Joni's statue and smoking [FMYFL@aol.com] re joni's staute and smoking [colin ] Travelogue - thumbs down I'm afraid [AzeemAK@aol.com] hi everybody!!!(with dr. nicks inflections {from the simpsons}) ["walterp] joni's smoking [Aerchak@aol.com] Re: joni's smoking [hell ] Re: a white-assed deer ["kakki" ] Smokin... [vince ] Diplomatic smokers offerings of peace ["chuty001" ] Re: Diplomatic smokers offerings of peace [Susan Guzzi ] Joni Fest, here I come! ["Kate Bennett" ] we be in da chat room [Jenny Goodspeed ] Re: Diplomatic smokers offerings of peace [FMYFL@aol.com] Re: Will Ashara please stand? ["Jim L'Hommedieu" ] Re: Will Ashara please stand? [Little Bird ] Re: JMDL Digest V2002 #543 [Thomas Ross ] ciggies are yummy ["Mark Connely" ] Re: Washington Post review ["Jim L'Hommedieu" ] Re: Judy/"Both Sides Now" [Catherine McKay ] Re: Beside Herself - statue of Joni [Catherine McKay ] Re: Joni Fest! ["Mark or Travis" ] Re: joni tribute in boston ["Christopher Treacy" ] re: Joni's smoking statue ["mia ortlieb" ] Re: Joni's statue and smoking [Sarah Gibb ] Re: joni's smoking [Catherine McKay ] Joni's statue ["Mark or Travis" ] Re: Diplomatic smokers offerings of peace [Catherine McKay Subject: Re: Joni's smoking > You're suggesting a statue of Joni kneeling down, praying to God, with > blood all over her? Yes, that's a much better idea. The gall of these > people, suggesting that she hold a cigarette in her hand...:~} She's just an unfortunate member of that last generation to whom the little white poison stick still seemed glamorous, romantic and effortlessly cool. (Well, second-to-last generation. Well.... okay, it's still cool. But please God don't tell my mom, okay?) Adam ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 05 Dec 2002 17:33:26 -0500 From: Yael Harlap Subject: amelias mary wrote: >Seriously: if the version of "Amelia" Byan's daughter liked so much was the >one Yael sang at Jonifest, 2002, then take it from one who was there: it was, >indeed, truly superlative. gosh, you guys must have been listening to something different than what i hear when i put on the jonifest cd!! :) but i am really grateful that people liked it - thanks muchly to michael paz for playing fantastic guitar. and thanks to bryan, bryan's amelia, and mary for the appreciation. amelia is one of my three favorite joni songs :) maybe next year i should do one of the other favorites... but there are so many favorites... joni = god. ok, speaking of music... has anyone here heard lynn miles? i don't remember reading about her here but i just got her album 'unravel' and i really like it. she's canadian too :) and she reminds me of a cross between jonatha brooke and shawn colvin. and i'm running the soundboard for her show at the Ark in Ann Arbor on sunday! (this may be my first "lead" experience on soundboard - so far i've been "second" tech person) the other NPs this month are: the great george harrison - all things must pass, and linda thompson's new album hugs to all, yael who is excited because she just got a new car today! ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 22:56:19 -0000 From: "Chris Marshall" Subject: RE: the JMDL community chuty001 wrote: > > >A few posts cracking jokes about a fag in a statues hand > > which didn't seem to bother anybody(made me uncomfortable) Vince: > given the significant members of this forum who are > gay/lesbian, I think > any comments about fags was responded to in a joking manner Remember also that Colin is english, and that to us english folk a fag *is* definitely a cigarette first, and american slang for gay men a very distant second. Personally, I was amused by both interpretations :) - --Chris ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 05 Dec 2002 17:55:16 -0500 From: Murphycopy@aol.com Subject: Re: Beside Herself - statue of Joni << About including a cigarette with Joni's statue, Colin wrote: I undertsand your point. however, i feel it would be dishonest to leaveit out. we cannot 'clean'people up and keep our integrity. like when they make films about real people and elave the bits 'they' don't like out. not good. >> This reminds me of a Jackson Pollack stamp issued by the US Postal Service a couple of years ago. The stamp's image came from a photograph of Pollack splashing paint on a canvas while smoking a cigarette. The cigarette was omitted for the stamp. Also, I think that if a cigarette *is* included in the sculpture of Joni, it should be rigged to emit smoke so the statue -- like Joni -- will always be surrounded by clouds! --Bob ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 05 Dec 2002 17:38:52 -0500 From: Yael Harlap Subject: joni in stone, to smoke or not to smoke hey- i have to chime in to say that sure, joni smokes a lot, and she could be smoking as a statue... ...but it is joni as a musician not joni as a smoker who is an important figure in my life. i think its much more intuitive to have her with a guitar... actually i kind of have this image of a young joni playing a lap dulcimer, looking down at it, with her hair hanging down so that from some angles it obscures her face... her delicate fingers playing 'a case of you'... that's how i picture joni. - -yael ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 05 Dec 2002 18:00:08 -0500 From: Yael Harlap Subject: joni tribute in boston hey all- my friend rosie told me there's gonna be a joni tribute concert at club passim on january 6th. if it were only a few days earlier i could have made it!! but i need to be back in ann arbor by then. grr. they asked her to do a song and she might be too late to take them up on it but she asked me if i could recommend a little-covered song that would suit her voice... i recommended marcie, blue motel room, cold blue steel... and electricity. i'm keeping my fingers crossed that she does it!! man, i'm jealous of folks who will get to see that show. why couldn't it be even two days earlier?! - -yael ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 18:25:34 -0500 From: Subject: LAST CHANCE LOST Lately, a few of the posts I've sent have gone off into the ether -- and not appeared in the digest. Has this happened to anyone else? As for the statue of La Joni, how about as she appears (so glam) on the cover of DJRD? Cue the birds! ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 05 Dec 2002 18:30:42 -0500 From: Murphycopy@aol.com Subject: Re: Beside Herself - statue of Joni About the cigarette/statue issue, Colin writes: << i see your point. however, i don't think it is quite the same thing. one didn't see him in public, all the time, with a needle in his hand. >> Reminds me of another story . . . Do you know that famous photograph of that famous cigar smoker, Winston Churchill? The one with NO cigar, in which he seems to be glaring into the camera, his hands perched on the chair's arms while he looks almost as if he's almost about to raise himseld from a sitting position? Legend has it that Karsh, the photographer, grabbed his cigar away just before snapping the photo. --Bob ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 14:06:29 -0800 From: "kakki" Subject: Re: new Joni DVD = Diltz? Kate wrote: > the beginning of my dvd looks like a screen you'd have on your computer > because it says something like enter here...i wonder if it has some of the > little exploring places that you mentioned kakki, like the cdr...hmmm I'd love to know more about it because I'm DVD player-less (always the last to acquire the new technology ;-) I remember reading some raves about this DVD on another list but can't recall the details. It would be fanastic if it incorporated the aspects of the CD-r. The funny thing is that his old website was much the same - there were collages of photos which you would think were just "static" but if you clicked on the individual ones, it would take you all kinds of wonderful places. Start clicking around with it, Kate, and see where it takes you! ;-) Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 05 Dec 2002 23:47:13 +0000 From: colin Subject: Re: Joni & Dylan, why didn't it ever happen?? > Are >most Joni Mitchell fans at least vague Bob Dylan fans too? > not this one. his voice is dreadful. to be fair tho, i don't like any male singers except for thre early Bowies and all the pet shop boys stuff bu that is for the music. > >Adam (Hello, I'm a fresher here, don't beat me up.) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 05 Dec 2002 17:48:31 -0700 From: Sarah Gibb Subject: Joni's statue and smoking Victor, I agree. Another point is that we want this statue to last a long time - for as long as bronze can last - and smoking may be viewed in the future as equivalent to a heroin addiction. So we'd be dating the statue if we included a cigarette, in such a way that it might be offensive to future generations. I used to work as an online smoking cessation counsellor. I have no idea how Joni Mitchell perceives her smoking. But I came to know many smokers her age who curse themselves daily for doing it, several of whom are on oxygen, all of whom are on medication for respiratory disease. I also knew two who died in their early 50s as a direct result of it. So to stick one in her hand would be almost an assault, in my opinion, a reminder of something she started when she was very young and perhaps wants to, but can't, get rid of. One of the ladies who died of smoking (through emphysema), at age 52, sent an email to her support group 2 days before she died. She knew she was dying. She asked them to write her name on a cigarette, to smoke it, enjoy it, and then to promise that was the last cigarette they would ever smoke. The day after she died, they all did exactly that, so she saved a few lives, though she lost her own. When you've encountered this kind of waste, you can't view smoking lightly. But whether the statue smokes won't be up to me. That'll be up to the artist, maybe in consultation with Joni Mitchell herself, if that can be arranged. Sarah Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 10:57:41 -0800 From: "Victor Johnson" Subject: Re: Beside Herself - statue of Joni > And I -- a non-smoker who regularly rants at my militant-smoker family > and who teaches my nieces (ages 3 and 1) that cigarettes are "YECK" -- > agree with Colin. Joni is Joni, cigarette and all. I also agree with > Les that it's tacky, but Joni without a cig would be less authentic. > But does that mean that a statue of Jerry Garcia should have him shooting up heroin? Both habits are equally "YECK" IMO except one is accepted and driven by society and one is underground and illegal. It reminds me of the Simpsons episode in which Marge Simpson is asked to paint a portrait of Mr.Burns. His despicable behaviour really turns her off on the whole idea until she sees the fragile, vulnerable Mr. Burns in the bathroom accidentally but then finds her inspiration to paint him as she has seen him, underneath his hard and cruel desmeanor. Perhaps this statue could be approached the same way, and attempt to capture the Joni inside. I have no problem imagining Joni without a cigarette and wouldn't even ever think about the fact that she smokes except that it is brought up here so often. Actually, I can't think of anyone I know that I envision with a cigarette every time I think about them. I have never ever smoked a cigarette myself and so I have an easy time imagining a world without them. Victor in Asheville NP: Nick Drake "The Way to Blue" ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 19:09:24 EST From: FMYFL@aol.com Subject: Re: Joni's statue and smoking In a message dated 12/5/02 6:53:39 PM Eastern Standard Time, sl.m@shaw.ca writes: > But whether the statue smokes won't be up to me. That'll be up to > the artist, maybe in consultation with Joni Mitchell herself, if that > can be arranged. > > Sarah, *this* is exactly what I wanted to say, but you beat me to it. Since Joni wants to "sit beside herself"....................let's see how she wants her statue to be. Let her decide and let's get off this never ending smoking debate. Jimmy ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 06 Dec 2002 00:11:05 +0000 From: colin Subject: re joni's staute and smoking Sarah Gibb wrote: > Victor, I agree. Another point is that we want this statue to last a > long time - for as long as bronze can last - and smoking may be viewed > in the future as equivalent to a heroin addiction. So we'd be dating > the statue if we included a cigarette, in such a way that it might be > offensive to future generations. > > I used to work as an online smoking cessation counsellor. I have no > idea how Joni Mitchell perceives her smoking. But I came to know many > smokers her age who curse themselves daily for doing it, several of > whom are on oxygen, all of whom are on medication for respiratory > disease. very sad and very unlucky people. smoking does not casue disease in all people who smoke, not even in most of them. My partner's sister is 60 and she is dying from lung cancer and emphysema. she has never smoked. One would be a fool to pretend that smoking is good for one, but there is so much scare mongering and exaggeration surrounding the smoking issue. Both sides of my faimly are very long lived-80's and 90's and most smoke. Those that have died young, an aunt from cancer, and uncle from pneumonia, another form a stroke, did not ever smoke. Of course this does not eman that the long lived ones are kept alive by smoking. it does imply that our diseases are much more controlled by genes than anything else. on tv tonight they were showing filters used to measure the air in London, the filters were covered in black soot-as are thelungs of those who live and breathe there. The air we breathe, the chemicals/poisons in our foods and water are all ignored and smoking is made the scapegoat. Howver, smoking is not a good thing to do, butit really is time people minded their own business and live and let live. the pullution angle is really crap. these same people do not rant about the car they drive or the plane they catch etc. In this modern world, people are just too plain nosey! ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 19:11:37 EST From: AzeemAK@aol.com Subject: Travelogue - thumbs down I'm afraid Oh dear! I was kind of dreading this. I finally bought it today and am playing disc one as I type this. Her voice isn't in as bad shape as I'd feared (then again I'd imagined a deathly croak, perhaps as an insurance policy, knowing that it couldn't be quite that shot) - but I still find it painful to listen to. Joni's voice sounds parched and exhausted, and I'm not hearing this marvellously expressive instrument that others have been hearing. It's like watching an old and frail person staggering along a cliff, I'm almost holding my breath. And her variations on the melodies remind me of Bowie's David Live album, where he sounded as if he was just doodling around, singing any note that fit except the note used in the original recording - but not, to my ears, in such a way as to add anything to my understanding or experience of the songs. And the arrangements? Sorry dear friends, but I can't stand them! Slouching Towards Bethlehem is playing now, and I find the arrangement pompous and over-emphatic, almost too literal in places. Mr Mendoza is a master of over-egging the pudding, something I'd clocked with BSN, but there things were relatively restrained (I now realise!). He's really excelled himself here, laying it all on with a trowel, filling all the gaps, everything sounding too busy. Oh lordy, after this I will get out Don Juan's Reckless Daughter and marvel at the exquisite orchestration on Paprika Plains... [Sire of Sorrow - never liked this anyway; arrangement not bad - until the chorus - yuck!] I also have a problem with the collision of voice and arrangements: the frailty of the former juxtaposed with the bombast of the latter results in sheer bathos. I can only add my voice to those who have yearned for a stripped-down Joni offering. I acknowledge that this is only a first listening and all that (I wouldn't bet against it being my last either), but my overwhelming sense is that this album will come to be seen as a folie de grandeur of epic proportions. [For The Roses is excruciating - oh Joni!] If I could wave a Joni-only magic wand and make three wishes for the next album, they would be: 1. Thank Mr Mendoza for his undoubted hard work, care and attention and send him on his way, replacing him with a VERY small band. (And ask him if he'd like to take the VG8 with him :-) 2. Get some help with those poor, ravaged vocal chords of yours - whether or not that means (whisper it) g*ving *p sm*king. As someone on the list very sensibly said, any singer, good or bad, old or young, trained or untrained, can benefit from a singing coach. I would be so delighted to hear evidence of the decline in her voice being arrested, perhaps even some clawing back of ground lost in terms of power and flexibility. 3. Write some songs! Azeem in London, dismayed to find that my main reaction at the end of disc one was relief that it was over. PS I just discovered, when I tried to send this without properly filling in the addressee bit, that there doesn't appear to be anyone on AOL with the username joni@aol.com - what are you waiting for?? ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 19:54:17 -0500 (EST) From: "walterphil" Subject: hi everybody!!!(with dr. nicks inflections {from the simpsons}) boy i sure enjoy reading these lists everyday my 2 cents about a few things: became a big judy collins fan in 1968 because of the top 10 hit version of "both sides now". bought the album "wildflowers" and also loved "michael from mountains." i thought who is this joni chick? so immediately ran out and purchased "clouds," "ladies" and "song to a seagull." I thought it was interesting how different joni's version of michal was, but i liked it just as well. but the joni version of "bsn" i thought was slow and plodding. almost purposly trying to be as different from judy's as possible. i still think judys version is packed with wonder amd magic, and i belive when joni first wrote it it was supposed to be more uptempo and fluid. this was proved to me when i finally heard joni sing it a couple of times on those bbc radio shows. these versions are much nicer than the "clouds" version. i assume joni was singing them here before she had recorded the "clouds" version, tho i'm not sure. i'll leave it to you experts. but by the way, joni did originally sing it for judy on the phone you know. or so judy says. now of course joni's career moved in leaps and bounds, dwarfing judys every (in comparison) meander. but when i think of "both sides now", i'll think of judy's version. (and she did a great version of it on pbs the other night). and thanks for correcting that ridiculous "rip off" comment concerning judy's interpretations. and judy has written a few decent songs of her own, ya know. as far as the "plain" singers debate, neil young, elvis costello and bob dylan are 3 of my favorite singers. as is joan baez, john lennon and ray davies. I think the way you sing it, and the enthusiasm and joy you put into the song, are more important than the quality of the voice. you can keep celine dion. have you ever heard annie lennox' studio version of "ladies?" it is faboo. "Es ter ail i a..." and those personality statues in parks are ALWAYS HIDEOUS. they should somehow do a collage sculpture of some sort, illustrating her songs. or just make a plaque with the lyrics of "song for sharon" or "hejira," citing them as the best lyrics ever written, and leave it at that. xxxx walt The most personalized portal on the Web! ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 20:01:49 EST From: Aerchak@aol.com Subject: joni's smoking I do no think such emphasis should be placed on the whole to smoke or not to smoke thing. We all know that Joni is a hard core, dedicated smoker. And I'm sure no one is really happy about that but it simply is the way it is. However, the statue is not going to be erected because she is a great smoker but because she is a great artist. So I think the emphasis should be on that. Joni cannot smoke while she's playing guitar. At least she never did when I saw her in concert. So if the statue includes playing the guitar, problem solved. She can have a pack in her pocket, if need be. I definitely don't think the statue should actually be SMOKING. That's just hilariously absurd. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 17:21:13 -0800 (PST) From: hell Subject: Re: joni's smoking Aerchak@aol.com wrote: > I do no think such emphasis should be placed on the whole to smoke > or not to smoke thing. We all know that Joni is a hard core, > dedicated smoker. And I'm sure no one is really happy about that but > it simply is the way it is. > However, the statue is not going to be erected because she is a great > smoker but because she is a great artist. So I think the emphasis > should be on that. Joni cannot smoke while she's playing guitar. At > least she never did when I saw her in concert. So if the statue > includes playing the guitar, problem solved. She can have a pack in > her pocket, if need be. I definitely don't think the statue should > actually be SMOKING. That's just hilariously absurd. I have to agree that the whole "smoking or not smoking" thing with Joni's statue is pretty absurd. Joni also drinks cappucino - should she be holding a coffee cup in her hand? She probably eats on a pretty regular basis too - maybe she should hold a knife and fork ;o)?! Hell ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 17:28:52 -0800 From: "kakki" Subject: Re: a white-assed deer Eric, I seem to recall that the Joni with deer painting from the TTT packaging was your fave - (mine, too). I loved finally getting to see the "companion" painting with Travelogue. Here's the background from Joni's KCSN interview at http://www.jmdl.com/articles/view.cfm?id=426 RI: Does this come, by the way, from your imagination, or was this actually a chance encounter with a deer -- or not so chance? JM: This is in Japan an hour before I had to go on stage, and standing behind me are Wayne Shorter and Miles Davis' last girlfriend, who was a French girl, who is a philosophy teacher, and Wayne and a herd of little deer that bowed to you. We were so intrigued you'd walk up to deer and they'd bow to you and the people actually were the crowd that was lining upfor our concert all along the edge of the lake and they were thick. I eliminated a lot of figures. So this was a composite of several different things and then there's a lot of the magic -- you throw away your source materialat a certain point anyway. It's only used as a preliminary sketch and then you're going for a painting, you know, like otherwise, it's just anexercise. It's got to do something to compel you to look at it that a snapshot doesn't. You can get a certain amount from a snapshot, but a painting's got to be more than a snapshot, you know. But,for me, because it's personal it reminds me -- over across the lake is this enormous Golden Buddha, and they hadn't had a festival of music on these grounds -- this was a Buddhist garden for over a thousand years. At that time they invited their enemy, the Chinese, to perform at the foot of the Golden Buddha. This was an international show with Japanese artists, and British artists, Bob Dylan, and myself, and Wayne Shorter, and their "Miles Davis" and, you know, the far-out pink horn, electric-horn guy, that only knew one English word, the F-word (laughs), you know, so it's -- I did two paintings from this, one of Ana Shorter, who is really behind me with deer all around her all dressed inwhite. Ana was, unfortunately, lost -- RI: In that airplane accident -- JM: -- in that airplane accident, so that's the last day that I spent with her and Ana's is quite a beautiful -- to me -- I have that one in my dining room so this is a documentary. It's another piece of memorabilia for me. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 05 Dec 2002 20:38:34 -0500 From: vince Subject: Smokin... Look at the cover of T'log. Is that cigarette smoke? Look at the pics in BSN. Smoke play a role there? Joni has herself made that a part of her persona just as much as Michael Jordan's tongue hanging out when he went for a shot was a part of his. So Jordan's statue in Chicago has his tongue hanging out. No one is suggesting that Joni's statue have a cigarette dangling from her mouth, but an artist can work it in, the presence of an object that is essential to Joni's self image and persona. We need to stop looking at this is a moral or aesthetics issue. The woman has made smoking such a part of her life, it is in very interview, every comment, everything about her. And I sincerely doubt that when a child sees the statue they are going to say, aha, I will smoke too! I think other factors will be far more important there - And has anyone gone to American Spirits and asked for them to underwrite a part of the cost???? Vince ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 21:20:13 -0500 From: "chuty001" Subject: Diplomatic smokers offerings of peace ok I may be megaultrahypersensative lately. I do smoke Boy do I smoke but her was what I had in mind.(keep in mind it's a work in progress and help is appreciated what do I know about dresses) http://www.geocities.com/thatstrangesite/JoniBenchSketch.jpg and here's another drawing http://www.geocities.com/thatstrangesite/JoniMitchell.jpg DF ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 18:50:17 -0800 (PST) From: Susan Guzzi Subject: Re: Diplomatic smokers offerings of peace WOW! I really love THIS close up sketch of Joni. Excellent - I think Joni would REALLY love this! Also, I like your work in progress. For me I keep seeing her in the bronze, and with much more detail, as she appears on the cover of LOTC. Of course with some embellishment and additional dimensions, such as instruments and I was thinking of birds or geese. As for the cigarette - I could take or leave that aspect. With her leg crossed so flat across the other - it may provide the opportunity for Joniphiles to sit right on her lap, when we make our pilgrimages to the statue. Imagine the photo opps! ... And the one I keep picturing running and jumping in her lap is our own Smurph! Can't get that image out of my head. Wish I could get it down on paper, I used to draw and sketch - but that was practically another lifetime ago now. Thanks for sharing these David. They are great! Peace, Susan Heading out into the cold for a little singing - Karaoke style! - --- chuty001 wrote: > ok I may be megaultrahypersensative lately. > I do smoke Boy do I smoke but her was what I had in mind.(keep in mind it's a > work in progress and help is appreciated what do I know about dresses) > > http://www.geocities.com/thatstrangesite/JoniBenchSketch.jpg > > and here's another drawing > > http://www.geocities.com/thatstrangesite/JoniMitchell.jpg > > DF Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 18:58:24 -0800 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: Washington Post review exactly fred, additionally i feel that the dirge like new version is in a sense a funeral for all those hopeful ideals so many of us had back then...not that there still isn't room for hope but in the wake of woodstock there was a tremendous surge of inspired hope that 'we' could change the world & now all these years later, at this particular point in time, it sure doesn't look as hopeful... >>But isn't that exactly the point being made in the new version? The fragile celebration of our youth that was embodied by Woodstock *has* been replaced by the weary melancholy of life in these days of "high late capitalism" as James Taylor calls them. Seems to me like she nails it.- -Fred<< ******************************************** Kate Bennett: www.katebennett.com Sponsored by Polysonics/Atlantis Sound Labs Over the Moon- "bringing the melancholy world of twilight to life almost like magic" All Music Guide ******************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 18:58:26 -0800 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: Joni Fest, here I come! yes yes yes!!!!! my vote goes to vancouver, bc we west coasters need something closer.... andrew >>I'd love to have a JoniFest somewhere in Canada at some point - Ottawa (where I'm from) is a great town for it. Or Toronto - so much to do and see! Or even Saskatoon!<< stephen >>Nominating Vancouver as host city for Jonifest 2004- perhaps somewhere up the Sunshine Coast ;-)<<< ******************************************** Kate Bennett: www.katebennett.com Sponsored by Polysonics/Atlantis Sound Labs Over the Moon- "bringing the melancholy world of twilight to life almost like magic" All Music Guide ******************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 18:57:57 -0800 (PST) From: Jenny Goodspeed Subject: we be in da chat room Come join Nikki, Chuck and I! Jenny Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 22:17:17 EST From: FMYFL@aol.com Subject: Re: Diplomatic smokers offerings of peace Wonderful sketches Fred! I'm sure Joni would love both of them. You are truly a talented man! Jimmy ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 19:19:39 -0800 (PST) From: "Jim L'Hommedieu" Subject: Re: Will Ashara please stand? Son, you need to look around your new home: www.jmdl.com Scan down the left-hand column and find "The Library". That's where you'll find many scores of interviews and review (curiously though you won't find Leonard Feather's ecstatic review of MINGUS for downbeat magazine, which he rated 5 stars out of 5.) Scan further down the left-hand column and you'll find "JoniFests". As you hover over the word, you'll see it change color. You'll thank me in a few days when you wake up from spending 20 straight hours reading up on JoniFests. Lama Now class, let's review. Did downbeat magazine trash MINGUS? How many stars did Leonard Feather of downbeat magazine give MINGUS? Anyone? Goodspeed? > I'd love to know more, and I'm sure others would > too. Where is it going to be in 2003? What happens > at JoniFest? Is there singing? Dancing? Eating? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 19:25:32 -0800 (PST) From: Little Bird Subject: Re: Will Ashara please stand? - --- Jim L'Hommedieu wrote: > Son, you need to look around your new home: > www.jmdl.com Oh, I've been exploring little by little. You're right about the 20-day haze, though. It may just take that long for my mind to process all this information... - -A- Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 22:30:48 -0500 (EST) From: Thomas Ross Subject: Re: JMDL Digest V2002 #543 the Nielson sounds interesting! keep me posted. Tom Ross Mijazi Music (518) 372-2611 http://www.tom.rossweb.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 19:36:18 -0800 From: "Mark Connely" Subject: ciggies are yummy In all the talk about cigs and smoking here, there is a conspicuously absent view. That is the view that cigarettes are good! I have smoked for twenty years, off and on. The longest I quit was for 4 years. 4 years, and not a puff, and then, back on 'em. After 4 years, I was no longer jonesing for a smoke, but I missed them. Why? Because I LIKE THEM. I LOVE to smoke cigarettes. I love the taste, the rush, the smoke, the heat. Too much is made of the power of addiction. Did Jerry do smack because he hated it? He loved it! Is it OK to love a particular drug, a certain high? I say YEESSSS! Now, if I could only get the doc to loosen up with the Vicodin.... ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 19:39:19 -0800 (PST) From: "Jim L'Hommedieu" Subject: Re: Washington Post review About Joni's song "Woodstock"---- In the Jazz world, the finest songs of many generations are kept alive through a never-ending tradition of new interpretation. Just because the CSNY version is the ONLY one I want to hear when I'm accelerating downhill onto the freeway at 1PM on a Saturday, doesn't mean that no one should ever attempt to give it a different "spin" (both puns intended). TRAVELOGUE doesn't have to present the definitive "Amelia" either. I know where that one can be found and it's completely safe and sound, thank you very much. (2nd place goes to Paz'es version on the PazFest set- I like it better than the one on TRAVELOGUE..... But Paz doesn't have the same chick singer on his!) Anyway, this lecturing-old-coot (me) is still banging away at the same point he made a fortnight ago- that this collection is completely worthy of sitting on the same shelf as S&L and MOA. It's not overpriced to me. If the TRAVELOGUE that we all have right now had been marketed as a "Limited Edition" it would have cost 50% more and we all would have bought it anyway; we all would have felt very smug about being true fans while others might be happy with the 'lesser' version with the simpler artwork. Finally, does anyone really want to go back to philosophy of "throwing up the art" like they did on 'hits' and 'misses'? "No further questions, your honor. Your witness." Lama - --- Kate Bennett wrote: > exactly fred, additionally i feel that the dirge > like new version is in a > sense a funeral for all those hopeful ideals so many > of us had back > then...not that there still isn't room for hope but > in the wake of woodstock > there was a tremendous surge of inspired hope that > 'we' could change the > world & now all these years later, at this > particular point in time, it sure > doesn't look as hopeful... Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 22:39:35 -0500 (EST) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: Judy/"Both Sides Now" --- "Mary E. Pitassi" wrote: > > I remain discouraged that Judy's version of > "BSN" is the only one > that many people are familiar with, and the one many > others regard as the > "original" to judge other covers by. My own mother > dutifully listened to a > tape of a mature Joni singing "BSN" a couple of > years back, but basically > thought that Joni was mutilating her own song, > because all my mother knew was > Judy's sing-songy version. SIGH. I remember when Judy's version came out & became so popular being sort of torn because I like Judy and I was glad a Joni song was up there in the public eye, but I was pissed off because it wasn't Joni's own version that was being promoted, and Judy's was just too tame compared to Joni's. ===== Catherine Toronto ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 22:51:51 -0500 (EST) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: Beside Herself - statue of Joni --- Lori Fye wrote: > > wasn't there > an interview in which Joni mentioned that an Indian > or shaman told her > that her smoking keeps her "grounded" or keeps her > "from > disappearing"? (Does anyone else remember this?) When Joni comes out with statements like this (if indeed she did, but I wouldn't be surprised), I have to wonder if she hasn't crossed completely over into Flake City. (But I still love her.) ===== Catherine Toronto ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 22:56:53 -0500 (EST) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: Edgar Allen Poe? --- Deb Messling wrote: > According to the W article: > > First off, she accuses Reprise executives of > ignorance. Since they have > never heard of, for example, Edgar Allan Poe or Job, > they don't get the > references in her lyrics. "And they think if they > don't, nobody else will," > she says. > > Does anybody recall any references to the works of > Poe in Joni's lyrics? > Thank you for asking - I wondered about that myself but forgot to ask. I don't recall any Poe references in Joni's work. If she were talking about the Alan Parsons Project, that would be a different story. ===== Catherine Toronto ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 19:57:57 -0800 From: "Mark or Travis" Subject: Re: Joni Fest! And you'd be surprised how much people have in common based on their shared admiration for a musical artist! No we wouldn't. ;-) Mark E in Seattle ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 23:26:30 -0500 From: "Christopher Treacy" Subject: Re: joni tribute in boston I will be making my reservation for this tommorrow morning! Thanks for the heads up, Yael! - -Chris - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Yael Harlap" To: Sent: Thursday, December 05, 2002 6:00 PM Subject: joni tribute in boston > hey all- > > my friend rosie told me there's gonna be a joni tribute concert at club > passim on january 6th. > if it were only a few days earlier i could have made it!! but i need to be > back in ann arbor by then. grr. > > they asked her to do a song and she might be too late to take them up on it > but she asked me if > i could recommend a little-covered song that would suit her voice... > i recommended marcie, blue motel room, cold blue steel... and electricity. > > i'm keeping my fingers crossed that she does it!! > > man, i'm jealous of folks who will get to see that show. > why couldn't it be even two days earlier?! > > -yael ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 05 Dec 2002 22:27:05 -0600 From: "mia ortlieb" Subject: re: Joni's smoking statue As much as Joni would have us believe that cigarettes have helped her writing abilities, I think its more likely that every time she tried to quit, her inability to write was hampered by the symptoms of withdrawl. Sure - - Joni with a cigarette in hand is classic Joni. However, a permanent statue will be viewed by many impressionable youngsters as well. Most cigarette addicts begin smoking in their childhood. I'm against most censorship. However, parents have choices in the library and music stores. There isn't much a parent can do to keep their child from looking at a smoking statue in a public park. I don't recall seeing any statues of Elvis with a box of Dunkin Donuts on his lap or a bottle of prescription drugs in hand. (sorry if I've offended anyone) Because Joni grew up in Saskatoon, I feel that her statue should reflect upon those years. Perhaps Joni could be playing the baritone ukelele she started out with, or ice-skating, or painting.......or maybe she could be playing the piano with her knuckles being rapped by the teacher! Mia _________________________________________________________________ Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 05 Dec 2002 22:54:06 -0700 From: Sarah Gibb Subject: Re: Joni's statue and smoking Hey Colin, I'm not having a go at you here, and I don't want to prolong the smoking thread unnecessarily, but I can't not respond to your comment that smoking doesn't cause disease in most smokers. Long term smokers who don't become ill are the lucky ones, and you're right that it's probably a genetic issue that protects them. Scientists, supported (of course) by the tobacco companies, and experimenting (of course) on animals who would otherwise never smoke, are currently trying to find out what that is. That aside, smoking causes serious illness in almost all long term smokers, and some short term smokers. Lung damage is not reversible. But smokers rationalize the damage away. They can't do sport easily/can't climb stairs easily, so they tell themselves they must lose weight/go to the gym. When they develop the cough, they call it "smokers' cough", when they should be calling it lung damage. Smoking and obesity are two of the major causes of death in North America. We don't think it's cool when people eat themselves to death, and we wouldn't think it respectful to build a statue of Elvis Presley holding burgers and pies in his hands, even though eating was as much his trademark at the end of his life as smoking is Joni Mitchell's. COPD (smokers' disease - bronchitis and emphysema) is the fourth leading cause of death in America. In 2000, 10 million people were listed as having been diagnosed with COPD, 1.5 million visited an emergency room because of it, 726,000 were hospitalized with it, and 119,000 died from it. Another 14 million Americans are believed to suffer from COPD undiagnosed. Death rates are an underestimate because many death certificates will say "heart attack" or "old age", and won't bother to mention the lung damage that caused the heart to stop. I don't buy the choice thing, because most people start smoking when they're teenagers, and by the time they realize the damage they're doing, they're addicted and their choice is massively reduced. I agree with what you say about other types of air pollution. Okay, I'm off my soapbox now. As I said earlier, when you've worked as a smoking cessation counselor and have seen the terrible things people have done to themselves, and how they long not to have done them, you can't let myths about smoking just pass on by. No offence intended to you personally. Best, Sarah At 12:09 AM +0000 12/06/2002, colin wrote: > >very sad and very unlucky people. smoking does not casue disease in >all people who smoke, not even in most of them. >My partner's sister is 60 and she is dying from lung cancer and >emphysema. she has never smoked. >One would be a fool to pretend that smoking is good for one, but >there is so much scare mongering and exaggeration surrounding the >smoking issue. >Both sides of my faimly are very long lived-80's and 90's and most >smoke. Those that have died young, an aunt from cancer, and uncle >from pneumonia, another form a stroke, did not ever smoke. Of course >this does not eman that the long lived ones are kept alive by >smoking. it does imply that our diseases are much more controlled by >genes than anything else. > >on tv tonight they were showing filters used to measure the air in >London, the filters were covered in black soot-as are thelungs of >those who live and breathe there. The air we breathe, the >chemicals/poisons in our foods and water are all ignored and smoking >is made the scapegoat. > >Howver, smoking is not a good thing to do, butit really is time >people minded their own business and live and let live. the >pullution angle is really crap. these same people do not rant about >the car they drive or the plane they catch etc. In this modern >world, people are just too plain nosey! ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 00:02:56 -0500 (EST) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: joni's smoking --- hell wrote: > I have to agree that the whole "smoking or not > smoking" thing with Joni's > statue is pretty absurd. Joni also drinks cappucino > - should she be holding > a coffee cup in her hand? She probably eats on a > pretty regular basis too - > maybe she should hold a knife and fork ;o)?! > Then again, she also needs her dulcimer, guitars (acoustic, electric, VG8, whatever), her piano, preferably a grand; that'd be nice. She has cats too, so maybe there should be cats all around her (maybe one on her shoulder?). And then again there's her new little doggie. She needs to have her paints and her easel, and some paper to write down the lyrics of new songs. What should she be wearing? Something by Issey? (maybe he can donate something to the cause, like a dress made out of bronze). My goodness, this is getting kind of busy. Hmm, how about a desk to put the paper on that she's writing the lyrics on so she doesn't have to hold it? how about a couple of extra hands to hold all that stuff? how about a marble bowling ball over the month of June? Saskatoon gets cold in winter. She's going to need a coat and a good pair of winter boots, maybe with an extra pair of heavy socks to keep her feet warm. Don't forget the hat, she needs one of those. Is she still drinking that German wine? Get her a bottle of that. And a glass to drink it out of; we can't have Joni slugging it back from the bottle. Aw, jeez, get her a whole case; she's going to be there a while. (How big is this park or wherever the statue's going to be? Is there room for a Lexus?) ===== Catherine Toronto ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 21:04:11 -0800 From: "Mark or Travis" Subject: Joni's statue Travis thinks it should be a virtual statue on view at www.fonijoni.com Mark E in Seattle ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 00:06:05 -0500 (EST) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: Diplomatic smokers offerings of peace --- chuty001 wrote: > ok I may be megaultrahypersensative lately. > I do smoke Boy do I smoke but her was what I had in > mind.(keep in mind it's a > work in progress and help is appreciated what do I > know about dresses) > > http://www.geocities.com/thatstrangesite/JoniBenchSketch.jpg > > and here's another drawing > > http://www.geocities.com/thatstrangesite/JoniMitchell.jpg I'm shocked and amazed, esp. at item 2. Mister, you draw REAL GOOD! (In item 1, is that a raven on the bench? Is that a Poe reference?) ===== Catherine Toronto ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 21:33:55 -0800 From: "kakki" Subject: Re: joni's smoking statue and other shiny toys LOLOL - that is hilarious, Catherine, LOL As for the statue, I think it's a beautiful idea (kudos to the organizing committee and artists) and now want one in L.A., too! ;-) Though I'm an incorrigible smoker, I wouldn't want to see the rendition include a cig - even though it is kind of a trademark of hers. There's just too much negativity associated with smoking and I wouldn't want to hear years on of various people and groups griping and protesting against the statue (or possibly even vandalizing it) because she holds a cigarette. It's just not worth it. When I think of Joni, I don't think of her smoking at all. Then again, maybe we could put a smokin' Joni statue on a bench out here along the Venice, CA boardwalk where it may be more acceptable ;-) But for the hometown, it should invoke beauty and not controversy. Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 06 Dec 2002 02:00:19 -0500 From: ljirvin@jmdl.com Subject: Today in History: December 6 1995: Joni received the Billboard Century Award - their highest honor for creative achievement - broadcast live on Fox-TV from New York's Coliseum. Past winners of the Billboard Century Award include George Harrison, Buddy Guy, and Billy Joel. The award has been presented annually since 1992 to an artist to acknowledge the uncommon excellence of a still-unfolding body of work. - ---- For a comprehensive reference to Joni's appearances, consult Joni Mitchell ~ A Chronology of Appearances: http://www.jonimitchell.com/appearances.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 06 Dec 2002 02:00:19 -0500 From: ljirvin@jmdl.com Subject: Today's Library Links: December 6 On December 6 the following item was published: 1988: "Famed Jazz Musician's Killer Sentenced to 21 Months in Jail" - Miami Herald (Mention) http://www.jmdl.com/articles/view.cfm?id=929 - -------- Can you type? http://www.jmdl.com/typing/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 02:01:03 EST From: FredNow@aol.com Subject: Re: Judy/"Both Sides Now" ... 2002 model "Mary E. Pitassi" writes: >Bryan wrote: >"Having just read the W interview in full...please let's clarify: Joni >didn't swipe at Judy, she swiped at Judy's too-sweet, sing-songy arrangement of >BSN. As for "ripping off"...please! Joni's career was in large part launched >by the covers that Judy and others did. That's certainly not a rip-off." > >Me now: I agree with Bryan that Joni's career got a huge jump-start thanks >to the covers done by Judy Collins, Tom Rush, the late Dave Van Ronk and others >in the mid-sixties. Judy, as the most commercially successful of this >initial group, perhaps deserves the most heartfelt "thank you" from Joni fans. It's safe to say that without Judy's version paving the way, the history of Joni Mitchell would be very different, very possibly not as sweet. My own entry to Joni was through Judy's beautiful Wildflowers album, with "Both Sides Now" and, especially, "Michael From Mountains." Not to mention (but I will) Judy's own equally beautiful "Since I've Asked," plus wonderful versions of Leonard Cohen's "Sisters Of Mercy" and "Hey, That's No Way To Say Good-bye" (Judy was also my entry to Cohen). In my view, this is still one of the essential core albums of all time. Judy's version of BSN was more mainstream pop, which in those days did not mean The Doors' version of "Light My Fire" but, rather, Jose Feliciano's. And because it was pitched right down the middle of that plate it hit big. Joni's version would not have had similar success if it were mainstream culture's first exposure to the song. For that alone Joni should be grateful to Judy. But all that aside, did anyone here other than me hear Judy's current version, which is as different from her own earlier take as it is from any of Joni's? She sang it on the PBS special, American Soundtrack: This Land is Your Land, currently airing (and re-airing several times for pledge week), and it's fantastic. Taped last May, Judy sounds as great as she ever did (which is a little more hit and miss to my ears these days), and her 2002 model BSN swings like no other, using asymmetrical meter and phrase-length in the arrangement, and a quite elastic (in time, not pitch ... her intonation is right on) vocal delivery. Buoyant, celebratory ... eminently life-affirming. By all means, catch the show if it comes your way. Fred ------------------------------ End of onlyJMDL Digest V2002 #376 ********************************* ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she? (http://www.siquomb.com/siquomb.cfm)