From: les@jmdl.com (onlyJMDL Digest) To: onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Subject: onlyJMDL Digest V2002 #359 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/onlyjoni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com Unsubscribe: mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe onlyJMDL Digest Monday, November 25 2002 Volume 2002 : Number 359 Sign up now for JoniFest 2003! http://www.jonifest.com ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- RE: poetry ["Victor Johnson" ] where is Herbie Hancock? ["J.David Sapp" ] Re: awww [colin ] Re: Is Joni a poet? Nay. [David Marine ] FW: Is Joni a poet? Nay. resend [David Marine ] Re: JMDL Digest V2002 #520 - NPR [BRYAN8847@aol.com] As we put the final nails on the Poetry thread... [johnirving ] Re: awww [Randy Remote ] Art criticism - why? [Little Bird ] Travelogue review - painful! [Little Bird ] Today in History: November 25 [ljirvin@jmdl.com] Today's Library Links: November 25 [ljirvin@jmdl.com] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 17:7:29 -0800 From: "Victor Johnson" Subject: RE: poetry > for me, i don't get why it needs to be defined...that sort of thing gives me > a headache... Me too...though I was an English major in college I could never get that interested in writing critical essays, dissecting and examining works of literature...I was much more interested in reading Tom Robbins novels, going to see the Grateful Dead, and writing songs. It seems that when you try to define poetry...break it up into little pieces that can be labelled and put in a jar somewhere, you are just getting further away from what poetry is- by the very act of trying to define it. Like trying to define what life is, or what love is...the things poetry speaks of are somewhat intangible anyway. It seems kind of funny really...to use words in the frigid limitations of a technical analysis to define poetry, in which words are much more beautiful, deep in meaning, and transcendent. Poetry speaks for itself. Victor NP: Travelogue "Slouching Towards Bethlehem"...wow . - --- Victor Johnson - --- waytoblu@mindspring.com Visit http://www.cdbaby.com/victorjohnson Look for the new album "Parsonage Lane" in March 2003 Produced by Chris Rosser at Hollow Reed Studios ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 16:33:02 -0600 From: "J.David Sapp" Subject: where is Herbie Hancock? The use of Herbie is interesting. 1st time thru I just heard him on Be Cool. But after repeated listening he seems to be used as a colorist - Example: SOS "You're stumbling in shadows" there is a quick, jagged piano chord stumbling. I have found other examples that escape me at the moment. He's mixed in the background with the orchestra, not up front like Shorter. peace, david ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 22:24:43 +0000 From: colin Subject: Re: awww > She becomes strongly defensive, and seems to >feel her work should not be questioned. > i don't see why it should be questioned. fine to like or not like but the rest is insignificant. why would any of us have the right to question anybody about any art they have produced? there is art I like and art i don't like. i wouldn't have the gall to question those whp roduced the stuff i don't like! I have always felt that being a critic is the least worthwhile of occupations. To me Gosford Park was tedious and din't enthrall me one bit. but that is just how it affected me. others loved it. I certainly wouldn't tellthe driector, write or actors that they did a bad job! ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 14:31:16 -0800 From: David Marine Subject: Re: Is Joni a poet? Nay. Hey John -- John said > "Define poetry." I9m happy to try to define 3poetry,2 although I would argue that my definition is not particularly relevant, as the word is in the dictionary. I9ll try for as catholic a definition as possible: poetry is writing (printed, chanted, spoken, or sung) which gains added beauty and meaning (beyond the literal) by the creative choice and juxtaposition of words. Here are some dictionary definitions that are a bit less verbose: Imaginative language or composition, whether expressed rhythmically or in prose. Source: Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary, ) 1996, 1998 MICRA, Inc. 1: Literature in metrical form [syn: poesy, verse] 2: any communication resembling poetry in beauty or the evocation of feeling. Source: WordNet . 1.6, ) 1997 Princeton University. John said > "Define good poetry. Here's one of my own poems: (from years ago...apologies, apologies... I was young and did not know better...) Is it good poetry? As good as Joni's?" Ah, define GOOD poetry! This gets to my point. It9s ALL poetry. Rightly, you did not ask me whether your writing was a poem, but whether it was a GOOD poem. Um...I think it9s pretty good in parts (I won9t dissect it here but would be glad to give you a full critique privately). I did enjoy reading it. I don9t think it9s as good as Joni, but others may. Have you asked your partner? Obviously the answer to the question of whether a particular poem is bad, good, or sublime will differ from person to person. Academic poets and students of poetry will bring a different set of criteria to the question than lay people. Your post seems to express a desire to work toward a definition of absolute good. It9s a noble desire and, I think, a spiritual one. As a great poet once said: "No one knows They can never get that close Guesses at most Guesses based on what each set of time and change is touching" I love Joni's poetry for many reasons. I love it because she finds gorgeous metaphors, because she speaks in cadences which resonate for me (as one who grew up loving pop music and also studying great poets from Homer to Donne to Eliot to Frank O'Hara), because her words seem direct, sincere, and heartfelt, because there is a sophistication to her thinking but no marriage to a particular "school" of thought, because her descriptive powers are strong, because the themes of many of her poems intersect with my own personal questions about love and life, and because the poetry is written by Joni. My life has been informed by these poems. I have lived, grown, and loved with these poems imprinted upon my psyche. Best, David ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 14:42:04 -0800 From: David Marine Subject: FW: Is Joni a poet? Nay. resend That last one seemed to have a lot of unintentional numbers in it. I hope this one doesn't. Hey John -- John said > "Define poetry." I9m happy to try to define 3poetry,2 although I would argue that my definition is not particularly relevant, as the word is in the dictionary. I9ll try for as catholic a definition as possible: poetry is writing (printed, chanted, spoken, or sung) which gains added beauty and meaning (beyond the literal) by the creative choice and juxtaposition of words. Here are some dictionary definitions that are a bit less verbose: Imaginative language or composition, whether expressed rhythmically or in prose. Source: Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary, ) 1996, 1998 MICRA, Inc. 1: Literature in metrical form [syn: poesy, verse] 2: any communication resembling poetry in beauty or the evocation of feeling. Source: WordNet . 1.6, ) 1997 Princeton University. John said > "Define good poetry. Here's one of my own poems: (from years ago...apologies, apologies... I was young and did not know better...) Is it good poetry? As good as Joni's?" Ah, define GOOD poetry! This gets to my point. It9s ALL poetry. Rightly, you did not ask me whether your writing was a poem, but whether it was a GOOD poem. Um...I think it9s pretty good in parts (I won9t dissect it here but would be glad to give you a full critique privately). I did enjoy reading it. I don9t think it9s as good as Joni, but others may. Have you asked your partner? Obviously the answer to the question of whether a particular poem is bad, good, or sublime will differ from person to person. Academic poets and students of poetry will bring a different set of criteria to the question than lay people. Your post seems to express a desire to work toward a definition of absolute good. It9s a noble desire and, I think, a spiritual one. As a great poet once said: "No one knows They can never get that close Guesses at most Guesses based on what each set of time and change is touching" I love Joni's poetry for many reasons. I love it because she finds gorgeous metaphors, because she speaks in cadences which resonate for me (as one who grew up loving pop music and also studying great poets from Homer to Donne to Eliot to Frank O'Hara), because her words seem direct, sincere, and heartfelt, because there is a sophistication to her thinking but no marriage to a particular "school" of thought, because her descriptive powers are strong, because the themes of many of her poems intersect with my own personal questions about love and life, and because the poetry is written by Joni. My life has been informed by these poems. I have lived, grown, and loved with these poems imprinted upon my psyche. Best, David ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 17:59:2 -0800 From: "Victor Johnson" Subject: Re: awww > i don't see why it should be questioned. fine to like or not like but > the rest is insignificant. why would any of us have the right to > question anybody about any art they have produced? there is art I like > and art i don't like. i wouldn't have the gall to question those whp > roduced the stuff i don't like! If it is a question about some aspect of the production then there is nothing wrong with questioning the producer. Producers can make bad decisions and are largely responsible for the way a record ends up sounding. They are only human and just as fallible as anyone else. My girlfriend is a producer, who on occasion has coproduced a project with someone, and I've sat and listened to her critique things several times. If it is simply a matter of not liking the material and/or the artist then you're right, there is no point in questioning the production. But it all really comes down to just having a real ability to listen to something and hear how it should sound. A bad producer can make a great artist sound terrible and a good producer can make an awful artist sound great. I went to a lecture given by Mike Shipley when I was in sound school. He was talking about having worked with both Def Leppard and Joni Mitchell. He said that when he worked with Def Leppard, he had to record like a hundred vocal takes and then layer and piece tracks together just to come up with a decent sounding vocal track. With Joni, he said he just recorded everything she did..set up a mic and just let her go at it. Victor SP: Travelogue....I like this!!! - --- Victor Johnson - --- waytoblu@mindspring.com Visit http://www.cdbaby.com/victorjohnson Look for the new album "Parsonage Lane" in March 2003 Produced by Chris Rosser at Hollow Reed Studios ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 18:04:35 EST From: BRYAN8847@aol.com Subject: Re: JMDL Digest V2002 #520 - NPR PBS Master documentary on Joni will be aired next spring and I know this because ut was just announced as I was preparing to type this having just heard T'log praised as one of the best albums and recommended top buy as Christmas gift on NPR's annual segment for this purpose. Much praise given to T'log, too, and then the off hand comment on the master documentary! I'm sure the NPR feature accounts for T'log zooming up into the 20s on the Amazon sales chart Sunday (had been in the 60s-80s all week). Anyway, I really want Joni to succeed, as always. But I am still having a major battle within myself trying to decide if I can continue to listen to this CD. Bryan ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 17:37:50 -0600 From: johnirving Subject: As we put the final nails on the Poetry thread... As Dr. Phil would say, "You cannot change what you will not acknowledge." Certainly, the english language clearly permits a broad use of the terms poem, Poet and Poetry. "Spoken like a true poet..." "Those words were so poetic..." "The poetry of her words..." I myself have referred to Joni's "poetry." Often in fact. She writes with imagination, guile, wit, intelligence, command, beauty. -All of the things that make for poetry. Good poetry even. But there's a subtle distinction I've been arguing here. That at some point there IS a separation from the broad term and conception we have, to the Art form so many great minds have devoted their lives to. I respect my boyfriend's take on poetry out of a respect for his lifelong devotion to learning and understanding the craft. If you have a tumor on your back, you're better off asking a professional. You may not always get the correct diagnosis, but your odds are far greater than asking a grease monkey down the block. As an artist who has devoted his life to the study and craft of Art, my opinions on Joni's art has a bit more informed weight than my boyfriend. You give a kid a lovely imported French goat cheese, a bottle of Cline wine, and sourdough bread and you're likely to be faced with a squenched up nose in disapproval. They'd pick kool-aid and pbj's instead. -Some tastes are developed, refined and informed . Certainly there is no need to define Poetry. It will live on as happily as a lark if you do or don't. In fact the definition any of us would offer will more likely say something about us and what we believe than it might say about poetry. I do believe, even if you refuse to play the game and define the term, there is a logic structure somewhere within you that dictates your reaction to the things you read around you... When you walk into a bookstore and pick something off the shelf, that internal logic system is kicking into gear. All I'm suggesting is to examine it. You may say you have no definition of Poetry but I don't believe that's true. You do believe something on the subject, otherwise how you feel about things would sway and vary from day today. Today Joni is Poetry. Tomorrow, Joni is not. -I don't think your mind works that way. There is a consistency to your thought process. (Logical or not.) So, what is that thing? Ok, so you pick up a book and some of the lines are beautiful and poetic. Does that make it Poetry? And if on page fifty you are fearful for the hero life, does it suddenly become a Horror Novel as well? And if there's some spectulative sentences, is the whole transformed into a Science Fiction novel? "What are you reading?" "It's a poem, Horror Novel, Western, Science fiction Romance Epic with a touch of..." Ok, so the book has some poetic passages. Spoken like a true poet. -That doesn't make it 'Poetry': Art form. See section B9 in your local Barnes and Nobel. So the book has a LOT of poetic passages. It might win it a Pulitzer, but it's still prose. At some point blurring the line blurs the meaning of the form it is and the form you're comparing it to. OK, this thread is about cooked. Pass the plates and let's serve this baby up! -Happy Thanksgiving. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 19:54:39 EST From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: where is Herbie Hancock? In a message dated 11/24/2002 5:21:50 PM Eastern Standard Time, davidsapp@peoplepc.com writes: > He's mixed in the > background with the orchestra, not up front like Shorter. > Pity...it was the same on BSN. Why use a major player like Herbie (unless he volunteered or wanted to work for scale) when you just bury him under all the strings? Anyway, thanks David & Randy! I could find Waldo in those books easier than I could locate Herbie in this collection! ;~) Bob NP: Panic Painters, "Peoples Parties" ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 18:00:32 -0800 From: "gene mock" Subject: sacramento bee review TRAVELOGUE Joni Mitchell Nonesuch Records **** (Four Stars!!!) " Joni Mitchell says she's not going to write any new songs. To be a singer-songwriter today, she says, she'd have to get hair extensions and hire a choreographer. And she's not going to do that. Instead, what she's done is hire a 70-piece orchestra and a brilliant arranger/conductor named Vince Mendoza. With creative direction from Mitchell's longtime producer and bassist Larry Klein, her songs have been recast in lush settings of strings and woodwinds. The music, in flawless harmony with the influential singer's now lustrously mature voice and the imagistic stories of her songs, makes "Travelogue" a soothing bittersweet wonder. Mendoza, a creative mover between progressive pop and jazz circles for the last few years, arranged strings for Bjork on her "Vespertine" and also worked on bassist Charlie Haden"s "American Beauty" release. Here, he works with songs from throughout Mitchell's career, including "Dawntreader" from her first, quiet folky album, "Song to a Seagull," through later, more sophisticated songs such as "Amelia," "Heijra' and "Sex Kills." There are 22 songs in all on the two discs recorded at George Martin's Air Studios. Regular Mitchell accomplices such as soprano saxophonist Wayne Shorter, pianist Herbie Hancock and drummer Brian Blade also are o hand. Shorter's darting soprano is the album's most expressive voice beyond Mitchell's. The album continually rises to climaxes that are grand yet intimate in songs such as "You Dream Flat Tires," "Refuge of the Roads" and "Sex Kills." Mitchell closes the album with one of her first recorded songs. 19966's "The Circle Game." The pensive take emphasizes the song's delicate balance of innocence and maturity, and the fleeting nature of time in our lives. Like the album, it's aching in its beauty and honesty." Marcus Crowder Bee Staff Writer Sacramento Bee Sacramento, Calif. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 18:33:12 -0800 From: Randy Remote Subject: Re: awww colin wrote: > > > > > > She becomes strongly defensive, and seems to > >feel her work should not be questioned. > > > i don't see why it should be questioned. fine to like or not like but > the rest is insignificant. why would any of us have the right to > question anybody about any art they have produced? there is art I like > and art i don't like. i wouldn't have the gall to question those whp > roduced the stuff i don't like! But why do you like or not like something? Get specific and you are critiquing. If you say you like something, or don't like it, you are giving it a thumbs up or thumbs down, just like a critic. You're just not saying why. RR ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 20:08:16 -0800 (PST) From: Little Bird Subject: Art criticism - why? Art criticism has existed for centuries, whether it was literature, opera or painting under the blade. Why are some pieces ridiculed and others lauded as perfection? I think it's because there is an underlying desire in all of us to conform, to know what's "hot and what's not." It's taken on a life of its own in today's culture, with movies, albums, plays, television shows, fashion, you name it. People want to know what it's okay to like and what it's okay to hate. It also creates "borderlines" (every bristling shaft of pride, church or nation, team or tribe...) and adds to our definition of ourselves. "We like this and they don't. They like that and we don't." It keeps us in our neat little camps and breeds camaraderie - that's why we're all here, isn't it? I think we'd be hard pressed to find a major supporter of Britney Spears on this list, and even if there was one, he or she would think twice before coming out of the closet about it. Because, as critics (and we are all critics!), we have defined Britney Spears as a lesser artist than Joni Mitchell. And, she is a lesser artist than Joni Mitchell - it's just a fact of life. But who defines that? Would a 16 year-old fan of Britney agree with that evaluation or would she defend Britney to the end and denigrate Joni in the process? Borderlines, baby. Borderlines. In any case, criticism is here to stay. People read it. People love it. In fact, many people need it to steer themselves through the arts. It is the arts, after all, that seem to draw the most criticism and that's for a reason - it's because it is such an elusive blend of emotionality, sensuality, intellect, psychology and sociology - it's not easily grasped. Art critics, movie critics, food critics, music critics, tv critics, fashion critics all exist because people want to know about the given artistic medium, and more importantly, what to think of it, whether it's worthy of praise or not. Critics, though, are mostly self-made. There is no training school for critics. That is both frightening and a relief. It means that "real" people can be critics and it's understood that the more one critiques, the more he becomes an expert on any given subject, which isn't necessarily true. This is why listening or reading criticism must always be done with skepticism and with the understanding that it always comes down to individual taste. There are not that many office furniture critics, although they probably do exist because people will always want "expert" advice on everything: "Is it okay to like this?" Yes, it is. - -Andrew Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 20:17:49 -0800 (PST) From: Little Bird Subject: Travelogue review - painful! Here's one of these "real-people" critics telling it like he sees it. It's from Amazon.com. He gives the album one star out of five and titles his piece, "Hey, Joni, have another cigarette!" - ---- Three words: Save Your Money. It's hard to believe these strained croakings emanate from a woman who once had such a gorgeous voice. I know there are zillions of fans who will disagree, but listening to this album is too painful for me. Joni may be bursting with creativity and great ideas, but you have to wonder about someone who has destroyed their vocal cords on purpose with a lifetime of chain-smoking. I think her next CD should be a tribute to Tom Waits, since she is sounding more and more like him. Pitiful! Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 02:03:03 -0500 From: ljirvin@jmdl.com Subject: Today in History: November 25 1976: Joni joined The Band's "Last Waltz" at the Winterland Ballroom in San Francisco. She sang backup to Neil Young on "Helpless" and with The Band on "Acadian Driftwood", performs "Coyote", "Shadows And Light", and "Furry Sings The Blues", and joins Bob Dylan, Van Morrison, Neil Diamond, Dr John, and others for the grand finale "I Shall Be Released." More info: http://www.jonimitchell.com/LastWaltz.html - ---- For a comprehensive reference to Joni's appearances, consult Joni Mitchell ~ A Chronology of Appearances: http://www.jonimitchell.com/appearances.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 02:03:03 -0500 From: ljirvin@jmdl.com Subject: Today's Library Links: November 25 On November 25 the following items were published: 1970: "Alberta-born Singer Gets Raves in London" - Alberta Herald (Review - Concert) http://www.jmdl.com/articles/view.cfm?id=431 1982: "More Songs About Love From Joni Mitchell" - Rolling Stone (Review - Album) http://www.jmdl.com/articles/view.cfm?id=303 1982: "Wild Things Run Fast" - Rolling Stone (Interview, with photographs) http://www.jmdl.com/articles/view.cfm?id=302 1994: "Thirty Years With a Portable Lover" - Los Angeles Weekly (Biography, with photographs) http://www.jmdl.com/articles/view.cfm?id=165 - -------- Can you type? http://www.jmdl.com/typing/ ------------------------------ End of onlyJMDL Digest V2002 #359 ********************************* ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she? 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