From: les@jmdl.com (onlyJMDL Digest) To: onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Subject: onlyJMDL Digest V2002 #357 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/onlyjoni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com Unsubscribe: mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe onlyJMDL Digest Sunday, November 24 2002 Volume 2002 : Number 357 Sign up now for JoniFest 2003! http://www.jonifest.com ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: Chuck Mitchell [vince ] My review ["Russell Bowden" ] Re: onlyJMDL Digest V2002 #356 [StDoherty@aol.com] Re: onlyJMDL Digest V2002 #356 [StDoherty@aol.com] Re: travelogue in Geneva Switzerland [arid@geneva-link.ch] Re: awww [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: awww [] Re: awww [vince ] Re: The coo of white doves [Bobsart48@aol.com] Travelogue opinionation [Little Bird ] Re: awww ["Mark or Travis" ] Critics [Little Bird ] My 2 Scents on the 'Louge ["Kate Bennett" ] Re: Critics ["Mark or Travis" ] Today in History: November 24 [ljirvin@jmdl.com] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 19:43:13 -0500 From: vince Subject: Re: Chuck Mitchell Terry, lease check as to where. If it is close to enough of us, we can have a ChuckFest. Maybe to amuse ourselves, bring our T'log albums and ask Chuck to autograph. Ask him who "The Last time I saw Richard" is really about. It could be fun! Vince TerryM2222@aol.com wrote: > Hi all, > > In today's paper (Detroit) is an announcment that Chuck will be performing in > the state (forgot where, but I can check). ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 17:1:32 -0800 From: "Russell Bowden" Subject: My review One more thing......I had NO EXPECTATIONS...I hoped for the best....and besides, who knows what to expect from Joni, really? Russ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 20:10:06 EST From: StDoherty@aol.com Subject: Re: onlyJMDL Digest V2002 #356 In a message dated 11/23/2002 7:34:34 PM Eastern Standard Time, les@jmdl.com writes: > Why would I want to cast her painting in an unflattering light by > holding them up to High Art? Or her music to Poetry? I would rather > contempate her work for what it is: Popular song raised to it's highest > zeinith. She is the queen of musical beauty. > Perfect! ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 20:13:18 EST From: StDoherty@aol.com Subject: Re: onlyJMDL Digest V2002 #356 In a message dated 11/23/2002 7:34:34 PM Eastern Standard Time, les@jmdl.com writes: > When people ask me, what does she sound like, or "Is she Folk" I > just say, "her music is Joni Music" I don't think most of it fits any > defined category. > Me too .. I hate when people ask me to pigeonhole - but I understand why they need to do this. Nothing condescending here .. they just don't hear music the same way as others do. I don't watch sports the way others do. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 02:25:33 +0100 From: arid@geneva-link.ch Subject: Re: travelogue in Geneva Switzerland Well, I thought I could introduce myself a little more. Joni has been a favorite artist of mine for many years (and I do have many other favorite artists). I'm a music lover and a pro musician myself, a drummer to be more precise, and I also used to be a cellist. I do have most - but not all - of Joni's records. The first one I got to know about 30 years ago, was Ladies of The Canyon, and it still remains a favorite of mine. I already loved BSN (a case of you & both sides now brought me to tears many times). I was expecting Travelogue to be even better, and it is. It gives a new light to many great songs, and I'm moved beyond description : by the words, by the music, by the arrangements, by Joni's humanity and PERFECT voice, by the musicians (Wayne Shorter has been a favorite of mine for many years too), by all the creativity and intelligence of all the people involved in this project. I know I've read negative criticism, even from old fans as it seems, but I truly see Travelogue as Joni's art matured and perfected. I was having dinner with my 12 year old son tonight, listening to the CD, and he said (although he doesn't understand the words): "what a woman!" I won't post to often I guess, since I'm pretty busy and English isn't my first language, but I do appreciate reading the messages on the JMDL! Alain >In a message dated 11/23/2002 11:56:18 AM Eastern Standard Time, >arid@geneva-link.ch writes: > >>It's my first post here, although I've been subscribing for quite some time. >> > >Thanks for popping in and announcing yourself, A. I believe you have >the shortest name of any of us! ;~) > >Please do chime in more often... > >B ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 20:37:44 EST From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: awww In a message dated 11/23/2002 7:29:21 PM Eastern Standard Time, hencon@sonic.net writes: > I'm sorry to hear those voices registering their disappointment that Joni's > new work doesn't fit their preconceptions of what it "should" be. > But dontcha think that Britney, Christina A, etc. also create and release cd's that are THEIR vision? And people here seem to have no problem ripping them to shreds because THEY don't like them - (and in most cases probably haven't even heard them. ) I guess I just don't understand the difference in allowing someone to express their discontent or disappointment with Joni's work, even as they acknowledge that it's Joni's vision. It reeks of those high school days when kids all pretend to like the same bands/clothes/TV shows etc. so they can fit in, and anyone who dares to be different is criticized. Don't get me wrong - I'm not comparing Joni to a couple of disposable pop sensations. I'm just addressing the concept that Joni's "realized vision" may not suit some people, even some of her most faithful lifelong admirers, and that should be OK as opposed to a patronizing "awww". Travelogue may not be my particular cup of tea, but it really has more to do with me & my tastes, and not with Joni Mitchell & the execution of this project. Or maybe They Might Be Giants are right when they sing "People should get beat up for stating their beliefs"... Bob NP: Joni, "Circle Game" from T'log ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 17:43:36 -0800 From: Subject: Re: awww Thank you, Mark, for articulating the very same irritation (and disappointment) at some of the more scathing reactions to the new collection. Ya' know, gang, I think most of us would prefer to receive new work from JM, in a more pared-down musical landscape, but THAT'S NOT WHAT WE'RE GETTING, whether we like it or not. For over 2 years now, most of us have known what the prognosis was for the next project. Now it's here, and rather than celebrating it for what it is, many of us seem all too focussed on everything that it's not. I may take a few blows for saying so, but if TTT is the best JM can do these days for an original body of work in song, I'll take Travelogue over it any day. - -Chris On Sat, 23 Nov 2002 16:28:29 -0800 Mark Connely wrote: > I'm sorry to hear those voices registering > their disappointment that Joni's > new work doesn't fit their preconceptions of > what it "should" be. > I'm sorry for the beauty they are missing. > Oh well, huh? > mc ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 21:09:27 -0500 From: vince Subject: Re: awww SCJoniGuy@coversRus writes insight akin to Tillich speaking of God: > But dontcha think that Britney, Christina A, etc. also create and release > cd's that are THEIR vision? And people here seem to have no problem ripping > them to shreds because THEY don't like them - (and in most cases probably > haven't even heard them. ) > > I guess I just don't understand the difference in allowing someone to express > their discontent or disappointment with Joni's work, even as they acknowledge > that it's Joni's vision. It reeks of those high school days when kids all > pretend to like the same bands/clothes/TV shows etc. so they can fit in, and > anyone who dares to be different is criticized. > > Don't get me wrong - I'm not comparing Joni to a couple of disposable pop > sensations. I'm just addressing the concept that Joni's "realized vision" may > not suit some people, even some of her most faithful lifelong admirers, and > that should be OK as opposed to a patronizing "awww". > > Travelogue may not be my particular cup of tea, but it really has more to do > with me & my tastes, and not with Joni Mitchell & the execution of this > project. > > Or maybe They Might Be Giants are right when they sing "People should get > beat up for stating their beliefs"... Respect for the artist whose vision we do not share, whose vision we cannot discern, whose vision failed to us to be clear and insightful, who vision we scorn, yet should be respected for their presenting there vision, as slight as it might mean to us. Respect for what doesn't work for us is always in order. It is always a risk to take what one has created, something that one has given life to and make it, when expression of that artistic work makes the artist feel naked and vulnerable by presenting their vision - so one one lays themselves bare to present their vision, whether it works for me, I salute the artist for their courage and the attempt and recognize that it simply may not work for me but might be real meaningful to others. Vince ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 22:11:09 EST From: Bobsart48@aol.com Subject: Re: The coo of white doves Mack wrote: > ?" Lastly, a PT that works > at the facility, but doesn't live here, was walking nonchalantly down the > hall, approaching me. I thought "hmm, she looks rather offbeat, I bet she > knows Joan." So I stopped her and asked "Susan, do you know who Joni > Mitchell > is?" She then said "doesn't she have a new album out?" I was knocked > over. > She said she was not a fan and instead preferred Bonnie Raitt. We were > then > interrupted by something. Later she returned to me and told this story. > She > said that she had friends in Canada and that they had doves, though not > specific about the birds was she. They, the friends, would play different > music and the birds would not react but when they played Joni, the birds > would > coo and coo and coo. She said they would remove Joni and play something > else > and the birds would stop. Reinsert Joan, and the cooing returned. Even > the > birds know. > > Really nice post Mack. This was a prime example of why I am not a Joni-only subscriber. Still, on behalf of those poor Joni onlies, please go easy on the NJC tag, eh ? :~) Bob ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 20:40:40 -0800 (PST) From: Little Bird Subject: Travelogue opinionation Regarding matters of opinion, I'm always interested in what others think of Joni's work, whether it's a glowing review or a scathing criticism. I think when an artist releases an album, a book, a movie or publicly unveils a painting, he or she understands that not everyone will love it, even those who may follow their work. They are essentially offering it to the public for consumption and not all will find it palatable. Taking criticism is par for the course for any artist. Besides, Joni is one of the most opinionated people around so I'm sure she can take it as easily as she can dish it out, although would probably rush to defend her art, LOUDLY, if given the chance to confront her critics. Russ is obviously a long-time Joni fan and his opinion is surely valid and welcome. At least in my in-box. And here's a dandy of a quote to keep in mind: "Never, for the sake of peace and quiet, deny your own experience or convictions." - - Nobel Peace Prize Winner, Dag Hammarskjold - -Andrew Yahoo! Mail Plus  Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 21:35:50 -0800 From: "Mark or Travis" Subject: Re: awww > I guess I just don't understand the difference in allowing someone to express > their discontent or disappointment with Joni's work, even as they acknowledge > that it's Joni's vision. It reeks of those high school days when kids all > pretend to like the same bands/clothes/TV shows etc. so they can fit in, and > anyone who dares to be different is criticized. > > Don't get me wrong - I'm not comparing Joni to a couple of disposable pop > sensations. I'm just addressing the concept that Joni's "realized vision" may > not suit some people, even some of her most faithful lifelong admirers, and > that should be OK as opposed to a patronizing "awww". Of course Travelogue is not going to be everyone's cup of tea and most all of us have Joni albums that we prefer over others and some that we don't like at all. Everyone has a right to their opinion and discussing what we like and don't like is fine. What I have a problem with is people who like to point out how she did it 'wrong' or what she 'should have done'. Someone else posted that it isn't the critics job to force their own vision on a work of art. Their job is to try and evaluate whether or not the artist was successful in creating the vision that the *artist* was aiming for. The critic also should comment on the quality of the execution of the various components - in the case of recorded music, the sound quality, the skill of the playing or singing and the integrity of the whole. I can't understand how anybody who has followed Joni from the beginning of her career can say that any of her records were poorly conceived or put together or represent anything other than her total commitment to the project and her consummate skill as a writer, performer and musician. There is nothing slip-shod about any of her records. Whether you like all of them or not is a different story. But to make snide, glib comments about them and imply that you somehow would have known what *should* have been done seems incredibly egotistical and very annoying, imo. I've trashed artists from time to time, I admit it. But I really do get annoyed with critics who publish in newspapers or magazines or give oral reviews on tv or radio who are much more concerned with 'skewering' and making witty, scathing remarks than they are with actually doing any kind of real analysis or constructive criticism. There are people who use these excuses for reviews to decide whether or not they might see a certain film or buy a certain record. And I think that's a sad state of affairs all the way around. Mark E. in Seattle who would like to submit Rickie Lee Jones name for consideration as a 'poet' ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 21:53:01 -0800 (PST) From: Little Bird Subject: Critics Very well put, Mark. A critic's duty is to criticize constructively, not presume to know better than the artist who conceived the project - excellent point. I have some trouble with the Dog Eat Dog album but love some of the individual tracks, for instance. But never would it occur to me to say "Joni should not have made this record," or "What was Joni thinking?!" I know what she was trying to do and appreciate it because I love her mind. To her it may have succeeded marvelously but it's naturally not going to tickle everyone's fancy. The same goes for any given album. It's a fine line between opinion and criticism and an even finer line between criticism and denigration. The key is to be constructive, objective and thoughtful when analyzing your feelings for another person's creation, always keeping in mind that it's an expression of another individual's interior world - their thoughts, their vision, their ideas - and that the critic, therefore, has a tremendous responsibility to be thorough in his or her analysis. Right? - -Andrew Yahoo! Mail Plus  Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 22:29:00 -0800 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: My 2 Scents on the 'Louge Randy wrote >>FTR, stripped of it's rhythm, sounds like stillborn bachelor pad music.<< that is so interesting to hear your reactions randy...i'm such a rhythm freak but i didn't miss it here one bit...i have to listen to this cut again but i recall listening last night in the dark that i felt i was being transported up to BC- it was deep winter & i was looking out across the water under a full moon...it had a haunting quality of her looking back in time while standing in the same physical location where she wrote the song.... >>the hugely ponderous treatment of "Woodstock", at heart a musically simple song with earthy hippie-era lyrics.<< i was blown away (in a good way) by her treatment of woodstock...yes, it was once a simple song for a simpler time (or so it seems now) & was an anthem for a generation (i was at woodstock myself)... but her new arrangement makes a huge statement about what has happened to us all since those simple glory days...imo of course... i think why i love this record so much is that i was actually not expecting that much (ti is just okay to me & i don't even have ttt or bsn)...i was completely open to hearing something brand new & i had no interest in comparing the songs to how she previously arranged them & i do not expect or want her to have the same voice she once had...& so i love the sound of her voice as it is now- so whethered & wise & like fine wine, a favorite pair of decades old blue jeans...a guitar you've had & played for years...etc.... we all have different tastes so i don't expect everyone to like what i like but i wonder- to those of you who don't like this record- have you listened to it in the dark, with no distractions, just letting yourself go where the music takes you...because this record really takes me on a visual journey, if i let it....it's cinematic... ******************************************** Kate Bennett: www.katebennett.com Sponsored by Polysonics/Atlantis Sound Labs Over the Moon- "bringing the melancholy world of twilight to life almost like magic" All Music Guide ******************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 22:53:46 -0800 From: "Mark or Travis" Subject: Re: Critics > It's a fine line between opinion and criticism and an > even finer line between criticism and denigration. The > key is to be constructive, objective and thoughtful > when analyzing your feelings for another person's > creation, always keeping in mind that it's an > expression of another individual's interior world - > their thoughts, their vision, their ideas - and that > the critic, therefore, has a tremendous responsibility > to be thorough in his or her analysis. > > Right? Yes! Very well said! Thank you, Andrew! Mark ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 02:08:21 -0500 From: ljirvin@jmdl.com Subject: Today in History: November 24 1975: Joni, as part of the Rolling Thunder Revue with Dylan and others, performed today at the Civic Center Arena in Hartford, Connecticut. - ---- For a comprehensive reference to Joni's appearances, consult Joni Mitchell ~ A Chronology of Appearances: http://www.jonimitchell.com/appearances.html ------------------------------ End of onlyJMDL Digest V2002 #357 ********************************* ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she? (http://www.siquomb.com/siquomb.cfm)