From: les@jmdl.com (onlyJMDL Digest) To: onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Subject: onlyJMDL Digest V2002 #356 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/onlyjoni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com Unsubscribe: mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe onlyJMDL Digest Saturday, November 23 2002 Volume 2002 : Number 356 Sign up now for JoniFest 2003! http://www.jonifest.com ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- fresh meat part 2 & hooray for the french ["Kate Bennett" ] Re: JMDL Digest V2002 #514 [BRYAN8847@aol.com] Today in History: November 23 [ljirvin@jmdl.com] Re: 1st French point of view about Tlog ["laurent Fonquerne" ] What's all this about her voice? [Rosanella ] Re: 'Joni's yucky voice' [] Joni, judith and me SJC [MWalshkoba@aol.com] Re: Joni, judith and me SJC [Catherine McKay ] Re: Is Joni a poet? Nay. [johnirving ] Re: joni as a poet ["RSM" ] Adam Durtz Diaries [again?] ["RSM" ] About that Meredith poem... [johnirving ] Re: Jordan / Jill Hennessy [Bobsart48@aol.com] Re: JM v Dylan [Bobsart48@aol.com] Re: JM v Dylan ["Blair Fraipont" ] travelogue in Geneva Switzerland [arid@geneva-link.ch] Re: travelogue in Geneva Switzerland ["laurent Fonquerne" ] wow, again. ["Mark Connely" ] Re: JMDL Digest V2002 #509 [Franklin Shea ] joni's voice ["Kate Bennett" ] Is Joni a poet? aye ["Kate Bennett" ] voice & bad reviews ["J.David Sapp" ] My 2 Scents on the 'Louge [Randy Remote ] Reviews ["Russell Bowden" ] Re: Is Joni a poet? Nay. [David Marine ] Re: voice & bad reviews [Fauchja@aol.com] Re: Old hippies, T'log and latest... [Michael Paz ] awww ["Mark Connely" ] Chuck Mitchell [TerryM2222@aol.com] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 00:09:13 -0800 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: fresh meat part 2 & hooray for the french jeff just walked through the room where i was playing t'log...he shook his head & said to no one in particular...'i can't believe critics are bashing this'... but hooooray for the french! they get it!!! ******************************************** Kate Bennett: www.katebennett.com Sponsored by Polysonics/Atlantis Sound Labs Over the Moon- "bringing the melancholy world of twilight to life almost like magic" All Music Guide ******************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 00:09:11 -0800 From: cul heath Subject: re: lyrics vs poetry Hi Franklin, Would you say the following is a lyric or a poem? IS THIS is this the higher ground we've been seeking? is this the place where we shed our skin? is this how its supposed to feel? is this way we heal? is this the shade we pull to let the light in? why is it so hard to let go of you and simply let you do what you want to do ? why should that be hard? what is it i really feel i would lose by letting you feel you've got the right to choose or refuse my heart? the key is in the lock that i'm opening as soon as the bird is out on the wing love will let down its guard... this is the higher ground we've been seeking this is the place we shed our skin this is how it feels this is how we heal this is the shade we pull to let the light in cul ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 03:28:20 EST From: BRYAN8847@aol.com Subject: Re: JMDL Digest V2002 #514 i think it fits so well but to each his own...btw, do the critics take tom waitts to task for his voice quality? how bout dylan? well, those two never sang like sparrows in the first place I just listened to disc 2 closely and this time I find nearly all of it to be vocally acceptable, and darn pretty at times, especially toward the close....anyway, I'll get over this smoker's voice thing I guess Bryan ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 03:30:03 -0500 From: ljirvin@jmdl.com Subject: Today in History: November 23 1968: Joni and Tim Hardin performed a "folk recital" at 8:30 PM at Brooklyn College in Brooklyn, New York. - ---- For a comprehensive reference to Joni's appearances, consult Joni Mitchell ~ A Chronology of Appearances: http://www.jonimitchell.com/appearances.html ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 09:58:20 +0100 From: "laurent Fonquerne" Subject: Re: 1st French point of view about Tlog - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rick and Susan" To: Sent: Saturday, November 23, 2002 2:55 AM Subject: Re: 1st French point of view about Tlog > Laurent a ecrit: > > Hi all, > > Here it is, the first article about Travelogue in France. A very very good > > article from Nick Kent in "Libiration". I hope you all can read french ;-) > > http://www.liberation.fr/page.php?Article=68811# > > Here's my attempt at a translation: > > Travelogue > > Joni Mitchell just turned 59 and has chosen this moment to officially > announce the she will not record again. She explains that she can no longer > support the dishonesty and greed of the record companies and the music > industry in general, and prefers to concentrate on her other gift, painting. > > However you interpret it, this declaration is a very bad omen for the future > of popular music in which, over the last thirty-five years, Mitchell has > shown herself to be a vital link, the equivalent of Dylan and Cohen as a > lyricist, and an inspired goldsmith of sublime melodies. > > Travelogue (a 2 CD collection of 22 of her favorite compositions rearranged > and rerecorded with a full symphony orchestra) comes across as her swan > song: a disc of thrilling beauty, an impeccable tour de force and a > demonstration of the timelessness of Mitchell and her songs. Drawn from > every period of her career, these songs, interpreted in a marvelous voice > haloed by wisdom and maturity, include too many highlights to name only one. > > Drop everything and buy this CD at once, in the hopes that it will make her > change her mind. > > > Rick (who only had to use Larousse 3 times to translate this and is pretty > proud of himself.) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 05:06:24 -0500 From: "William Chavez" Subject: [none] >Oh there was that one episode of "I Love Lucy", where Fred put a >roofie in >Ricky's drink and they went at it for hours..........oh >nevermind :~) I actually have this episode on one of those VHS collections of outtakes!! They didn't call it "roofies" though, it was "spanish..." something or other. Will _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 10:28:59 +0000 From: Rosanella Subject: What's all this about her voice? I've heard and read so much about Joni's voice, that I find it some reviews quite ridiculous. I was listening to Travelogue, and I don't find anything wrong about her voice at all. In fact, it has a soft deep tone to it, that I find very soothing. And it's quite obvious that Joni does not have the voice of a 25 years old. Mick Jagger doesn't either! Or are we supposed to have 'plastic surgery' and 'botox' on vocal chords as well? Often times, I wonder where all the spontaneity has gone. We've lost the plot completely throughout the past 20 years. I'm not a 60's fanatic (I was born then), but we've lost the sense of spontaneity, with the inability to differentiate between a natural progression of events throughout life, i.e. aging, and the commercialization of just about anything we have around us. Air is still not requiring a 'managing directives' of some sort. How long will that last? Regards. Rosanella rosanella@ntlworld.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 19:46:40 +0800 (PHT) From: Subject: Re: 'Joni's yucky voice' I had the same experience. Friends of mine who are discovering Joni for the first time and were only introduced to her "ravaged" voice of late, wonder why she ever got a recording deal. They thought her voice was not typical of today's singers (these are the same people who haven't heard of the latter-period Maxine Sullivan, Lena Horne, Alberta Hunter and Teri Thornton or heard of these great singers' records when they were younger). Because we recognize in this List that people can have a radically different version from our own, I let that one pass. But the one critique of Joni I find a bit strange and vindictive were those observations coming from people who claim that they used to be fans of hers, but cannot "get" her voice now. That her bell-clear soprano deteriorated to the huskiest of alto and that they took it to mean that her creativity also "died" with the supposed deterioration of her voice. Although, I have to admit that I prefer the 1950s-era Ella Fitzgerald than the 1980s-era Ella, I still think that Joni, like Ella, never lost that creativity. Sure, both women had to push themselves a little harder to make what used to be effortless, happen but its the comparison of the young voice vs.old voice prevents many from truly appreciating what this singer has to say NOW. But I guess most film critiques always make a comparison of the artist's past work to gain insights into the present recording. I have yet to see a review of a relatively senior artist's new work where there is no mention of her/his previous outings. Joseph in MAnila np: "Smoother Escape" - D'Sound > > I actually prefer the husky alto to her peaks-n'-valleys soprano of days > gone by. I think her voice reached its ideal pitch in the mid to late > 70s when it could glide seamlessly over many octaves and multi-syllabic > phrases with ease. But I agree that the critics will generally not be > kind to Joni's singing capabilities this time around. I noticed the > deterioration of her voice even since Both Sides Now but tend to like > it's rusty effect, over all. > > I liked the comparison someone made of Joni's voice to a horn. It is > very brassy these days, sort of trumpet-like and squeaky on the trills. > > However, I think it will only serve to marginalize her even further. If > fans of her work are finding it distracting, imagine what the mainstream > public will think. They won't really know what to make of it. > > I imagine touring this album may prove to be difficult for Joni if her > voice is in rough shape. > > -Andrew > Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 08:39:09 EST From: MWalshkoba@aol.com Subject: Joni, judith and me SJC Dear Listers, As a Joni fan from the 60's, I find myself checking in with the list when I know it will be a buzz. Got my T'logue first thing Tuesday, having called Circuit City to make sure it was stocked, and had it opened and ready to pop in the CD player by the time I got in my car. Anything I have to say about Joni's genius would be redundant. Reading the poetry thread, I remembered there was a similar thread on the list in '97 and there was an excerpt which had a detailed analysis of Marcie which I believe was part of a poetry textbook. I checked the Archives, but they don't go back that far. Too bad. I was an ESOL teacher in Japan for 26 years and often used Circle Game in my poetry classes to introduce Joni. You never know where new fans will be born. I always look for opportunities to spread the Joni word and my greatest triumph was hearing Joni quoted (after a comment by me) by one the leading experts on Domestic Violence. Judith Herman, author of Trauma and Recovery, is presently at work on a book on Justice. I was interviewed by her because of my lengthy court odyssey when trying to extricate myself from my abusive relationship. I couldn't resist telling her that, as I would sit in court watching the machinations of the various players in our criminal justice (or maybe injustice) system, I'd sing Joni songs to myself. My then-husband's case once got continued being bumped by an Ethiopian case since Ethiopian interpreters are harder to come by than Japanese ones. So, I'm humming "Ethiopia" walking out of the courtroom. The ADA says, "Joni couldn't have a song about that!" Even though my ex-husband was found "not guilty" at his jury trial, I felt there was "poetic justice" of a sort when Judith Herman opened her talk on Justice at Radcliffe with the Joni quote from "Sex Kills"...."Is Justice Just Ice?....." So, I was very pleased that "Sex Kills" was included on T'logue. There's a moody sky today in Boston....think I'll head out for a mini-hejira with Belle, the yellow lab I'm minding, and find some trees. Mary ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 09:52:12 -0500 (EST) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: Joni, judith and me SJC --- MWalshkoba@aol.com wrote: > Dear Listers, > I always look for opportunities to spread the Joni > word and my greatest > triumph was hearing Joni quoted (after a comment by > me) by one the leading > experts on Domestic Violence. Judith Herman, author > of Trauma and Recovery, > is presently at work on a book on Justice. I was > interviewed by her because > of my lengthy court odyssey when trying to extricate > myself from my abusive > relationship. > > I couldn't resist telling her that, as I would sit > in court watching the > machinations of the various players in our criminal > justice (or maybe > injustice) system, I'd sing Joni songs to myself. My > then-husband's case once > got continued being bumped by an Ethiopian case > since Ethiopian interpreters > are harder to come by than Japanese ones. So, I'm > humming "Ethiopia" walking > out of the courtroom. The ADA says, "Joni couldn't > have a song about that!" > > Even though my ex-husband was found "not guilty" at > his jury trial, I felt > there was "poetic justice" of a sort when Judith > Herman opened her talk on > Justice at Radcliffe with the Joni quote from "Sex > Kills"...."Is Justice Just > Ice?....." Have you found that there's a Joni quote for just about every situation in life? I have; moreso since I joined this list. I don't want to start up the Church of Joni thread again, as some found it offensive (I'm not that easily offended, but I'm a Canadian and therefore a wimp, or a weenie, I suppose); however, I find Joni quotes spring to mind and trip off my tongue much more easily than Bible and Shakespeare quotes. I'm sure that, at least once a day, I throw out a Joni-quote, sometimes deliberately, sometimes not; but when it's deliberate, I always wonder whether anyone will spot it. So far no one has. Sigh. Maybe I'm not being obvious enough. Maybe I need to use the really common ones like "both sides now" or "paved paradise; put up a parking lot." On the other hand, when I had my Joni screensavers on my PC at work (before they made us sign those documents saying we wouldn't download anything and we wouldn't alter anything & so on), everyone that spotted them on my computer said, "Oh! Joni Mitchell!" So, there you go. ===== Catherine Toronto ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 08:17:29 -0600 From: johnirving Subject: Re: Is Joni a poet? Nay. From: "RSM" Subject: Re: Is Joni a poet? Nay. First, a caveat: I am not a poet and don't play one on TV. I don't even read much poetry. But, regarding whether Joni's lyrics are poetry or not, I think that the suggestion that they are not poetry because they are not "condensed" or "stripped down" overlooks the majority of what we call poetry. Certainly there is poetry, particularly modern poetry, that is very spare in use of words. However, just because it is not a haiku does not make it less than poetry. The moment I pressed 'send' on my post, I knew someone would reply from this train of thought. When I speak of Poetry being condense, I do not mean Haiku, or brevity of words. Certainly poetry can be free form as well as long. The compression I mean is one of language and thought. The essence of poetry is verbal and conceptual density. The many ways to that are quite complex and exhilarating. For example, using non-poetry mind you as my example: Waiting for Godot is a deeply complex, conceptual work and yet the written line is matter of fact, plain speak bordering on gibberish. And yet, in spite of simplicty of dialogue, there is a complexity of thought the average joe could not begin to wrap their brains around. Poetry is like that. There is a density and condensation of thought and word play. Joni Mitchell's lyrics are certainly poetic and beautiful. Beautiful enough to warrant contemplation and reading. But they are not poetry. The Complete Poems and Lyrics does not work as a stand alone book of poetry, in spite of the artful cover and title. It is an unsatifying read as a book of poetry. Perhaps a professor of English could speak at length to the whys better than I can. I'm reading Shadows and Light right now and as lovely as it is, it is too straight forward a piece of writing to work as Poetry. "Every picture has it's shadows and it has some source of light." is too declarative a thought -as is the entire song- to be poetry. A poem wouldn't tell you every picture has it's shadows. It would simply BE the thing. (Not sure if I'm making sense...) The condensation of thought would strip away the declarative and the reader would discover, by discription, or words alone that the shadows mentioned in the piece are in fact the shadows of a painting. That would turn the writing into Poetry. Not by mere compression of word, but compression of thought, a poem, through condesation, says a lot more than what is literally written, however long the passage: eg. From the Poem 'About Opera' by William Meredith: What dancing is to the slightly spastic way Most of us teeter through our bodily life Are these measured cries to the clumsy things we say, In the heart's duresses, on the heart's befalf. - -The thoughts being expressed in that stanza would fill a digest in common spoken language. I am partnered with a Poet. (He just handed me that passage, btw...) With over 200,000 books in the house (!!!), I can't move from room to room without tripping over Poetry in one form or another. From the early Greeks to the most contemporary writers, he's read it all. I know exactly what HE would say if I asked him if Joni were a poet. I would get that same look I get when he wanders by the tv set when I'm watching Star Trek, and they characters are speaking space speak: "Captain, the triambic radiation is interfering with the targetting scanners..." Actually, he didn't effort a grunt when I posed the question to him. I would trust his informed judgement. I'm not sure why we would want to cast Joni's lyrics in such an unflattering light as to put them in the realm of Poetry. Especially on the heels of her brilliant triumph T'log. These lyrics are among the most brilliant song lyrics in the history of mankind. As poetry, Wiliam Meredith or Donald Justice is running nuclear rings around this stuff. Why pale her work by such comparison? Which brings up a bit of irony I'm afraid to mention, but thought of when I opened the T'log package: I find it curious that Joni devotes so much of her worth to a medium that she is a minor player in, when as a writer/singer/composer she is unparalleled in the history of mankind. That's like Einstein devoting himself to carving wildlife... Shakespear idling his time in the joys of baking bread... I mean, really. Certainly, her painting is lovely and I wouldn't have her put her brushes down for a moment. Some of her pieces are downright magnificent... As a singer/composer she is not only one of the top 20 human beings among the billions living, but billions in the entire history of the planet as well. As a painter, the peers her equal or better, just in the southern Cal area alone would popuate a small city. (Not to cast dispersions on her art. Just a statement of how many good artists there are out there doing good stuff.) Why would I want to cast her painting in an unflattering light by holding them up to High Art? Or her music to Poetry? I would rather contempate her work for what it is: Popular song raised to it's highest zeinith. She is the queen of musical beauty. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 06:56:17 -0800 From: "RSM" Subject: Re: joni as a poet I found a fascinating interview of Joni on the web at http://www.kgsr.com/iTOOLIncludes/6305.php . Probably an article knocked around here before, but for newbies, really intriguing. It really gives you some insight into where Joni is coming from. She describes how she balances painting, poetry and writing music: "So psychologically, I think, that the switching from poetry to painting and back to music, there are three different psychologies, really. When you paint, you shut down the inner dialogue completely. You come down to synapses, you know, and occasionally an voice, like Robbie the Robot, goes "Red in the upper right-hand corner." You know, it comes down to impulses. Poetry is almost insane. You have to stir up overlapping thoughts, chaos in your mind and then pluck from it. Without the painting to clear the head, I don't think I could do it. And the music has always been -- you know, the music, I think, is a true gift and has always been kind of soothing to me and not a problem. You know, the poetry is psychologically dangerous and the painting kind of balances it out." She also touches on many of the issues we have been knocking around. A must read, I think. Ron in LA - ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Friday, November 22, 2002 12:44 PM Subject: Re: joni as a poet > My little desk dictionary defines "poet" as "a creative artist of great sensitivity." Fits Joni to a "T" methinks.(But now I'm wondering how the expression "to a T" originated. Anyone? Class? Jimmy? Jenny? Bueller? :-) > > Bonus definition: > > poetaster - n. : an inferior poet. (and looky...there's a picture of eminem next to it) ;-) > > -Julius ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 07:07:18 -0800 From: "RSM" Subject: Adam Durtz Diaries [again?] I sent this earlier but it did not come back on Outlook express. Sorry if it pops up twice. Here is an interesting web page which I have to bet has been brought up before. Apparently Adam Durtz of Counting Crows (or someone who purports to be him) has an online diary. On 5/21/02 he speaks of Amsterdam, Blue and an encounter with JM in a studio when she was recording T'log. Good stuff. http://adam.countingcrows.com/5-21-02.html Ron in LA ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 08:37:44 -0600 From: johnirving Subject: About that Meredith poem... My partner is sharp as a whip... That poem he just handed me speaks to the heart of what we've all been gushing about with Travelogue the last few days. So I'm including it here in it's entirety: About Opera It's not the tunes, although as I get older Arias are what I hum and whistle. It's not the plots-they continue to bewilder In the tongue I speak and in several that I wrestle. An image of articulateness is what it is" Isn't this how we've always longed to talk? Words as they fall are monotone and bloodless. But they yearn to take the risk these noises take. What dancing is to the slightly spastic way Most of us teeter through our bodily life Are thes measured cries to the clumsy thing we say, In the heart's duresses, on the heart's behalf. That is the essential joy of Joni's music. In our clumsy day to day life and common speak, we yearn to say beautiful, meaningful heartfelt things. We yearn to hear them as well. Enter Joni, who comes along and offers up in two year increments, gifts of perfect expression that fill our hearts to fullness. Wouldn't we all love to shuck monotone and bloodless words and speak with such eloquent beauty??? Her's is the gift of life being right. If for but a few hours of listening. j. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 10:36:28 EST From: Bobsart48@aol.com Subject: Re: Jordan / Jill Hennessy In a message dated 11/21/02 Lori writes: > Speaking of gays and lesbians portrayed on American television, did > anyone catch "Crossing Jordan" last Monday night? The lover of > a "conservative" lesbian psychiatrist/talk show host was murdered, and > of course Jordan was involved in solving the case. The secondary story > was the attraction between Jordan and the doctor, who was portrayed as > professional, attractive, and neither too femme nor too butch. The > story was rather nicely done ... unfortunately, Jordan had to admit > she's not gay ... : ( > > Lori, > a big fan of Jill Hennessey > > I may be redundant here, being several digests behind and replying in order, but Jill Hennessey (sp ? I dunno) is also a big fan of JM - face appearing often in the audience at the JM Tribute Concert onTNT. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 11:02:45 EST From: Bobsart48@aol.com Subject: Re: JM v Dylan Kate recounted (then commented) > "After 35 years in the business, the original woman with a guitar is one of > few artists on a par with Bob Dylan." > > quite an assumption (and subtly sexist at that)...that dylan is the one to > be on a par with...how about dyan is one of the few artists to be on a par > with joni? i know, preaching to the choir here but i could not help myself > ;~O > > The choir is not satisfied - "but how could Dylan possibly be considered on a par with Joni as far as the music goes ? Does the music count for naught ? Will someone who is a Dylan fan please explain this to me ?" I can understand the concept that Dylan's influence has exceeded Joni's (at least in terms of breadth of impact), but the phrase was - "artists on a par with". Bob S - still thinks the emperor has no clothes on ;-) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 11:12:03 -0500 From: "Blair Fraipont" Subject: Re: JM v Dylan At least in my head, Joni is hailed as being on par with Dylan and not the other way around, is that Dylan had a good 8 years of recordings and acclaim before Joni recorded Songs to a Seagull and so is her superior by years, but once Joni began cranking out the masterpieces, it was obvious that hardly no other artist had put out such solid work (and I think that her first 5 albums were all her songs and not covers, helped establish her with street cred, and on top of that the cover of Twisted was not a cop off like as if she did "Bridge over Troubled Water" or "yesterday", but "Twisted" was more like a Joni song) But, I think we all get this already :) ANd then, sometimes, I do think the comparisons between the two can be sexist, depending on which publication/writer is giving their opinion. Musically, there is no similarity. Bob's Music is more traditional in a blues way (especially the last 2 albums) and Joni's is more I don't know, Joni. When people ask me, what does she sound like, or "Is she Folk" I just say, "her music is Joni Music" I don't think most of it fits any defined category. Blair F NP:Ain't nothing like the real thing-Laura Nyro >Kate recounted (then commented) > > > "After 35 years in the business, the original woman with a guitar is one >of > > few artists on a par with Bob Dylan." > > > > quite an assumption (and subtly sexist at that)...that dylan is the one >to > > be on a par with...how about dyan is one of the few artists to be on a >par > > with joni? i know, preaching to the choir here but i could not help >myself > > ;~O > > > > >The choir is not satisfied - "but how could Dylan possibly be considered on >a >par with Joni as far as the music goes ? Does the music count for naught ? >Will someone who is a Dylan fan please explain this to me ?" > >I can understand the concept that Dylan's influence has exceeded Joni's (at >least in terms of breadth of impact), but the phrase was - "artists on a >par >with". > >Bob S - still thinks the emperor has no clothes on ;-) _________________________________________________________________ Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 17:54:55 +0100 From: arid@geneva-link.ch Subject: travelogue in Geneva Switzerland Hello! It's my first post here, although I've been subscribing for quite some time. I just got home with my own copy of Travelogue. I bought it at one of the FNAC stores here in Geneva, and that means they probably got it in France already. I knew I was going to love it. What a brilliant CD ! A :-) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 18:11:47 +0100 From: "laurent Fonquerne" Subject: Re: travelogue in Geneva Switzerland Well they didn't get it Yesterday ... Laurent. - ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Saturday, November 23, 2002 5:54 PM Subject: travelogue in Geneva Switzerland > Hello! > > It's my first post here, although I've been subscribing for quite some time. > > I just got home with my own copy of Travelogue. I bought it at one of > the FNAC stores here in Geneva, and that means they probably got it > in France already. > > I knew I was going to love it. What a brilliant CD ! > > A :-) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 11:41:19 -0600 From: "J.David Sapp" Subject: T'log style painting with words and music I have listened to T'log about 10 times thus far and as with all of Joni's work repeated listening reveals layers. One thing that has jumped out at me is how Joni is painting on a huge canvas with lots of colors. To me it is the prime example of Joni's painting with words and music concept. Sometimes its a short phrase. Examples: O&M "Slippers are shuffling into folding chairs" the strings sound like shuffling slippers. SOS "You're stumbling in shadows" there is a quick, jagged piano chord stumbling. Other times it is the entire arrangement. Woodstock is transformed into a dirge. TLTISR becomes tongue in cheek. Cherokee aches with longing for the lost friend. I think this is the music Joni has always heard in her head and it must have been a powerful and liberating experience for her. This is a major work. peace, david ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 09:45:06 -0800 (PST) From: Little Bird Subject: Don Juan's Reckless Son Since I just joined last week, I am not sure if this has ever been posted or discussed before, but there are some great resources on the web about Carlos Castaneda, who was the most significant influence for most of the imagery on Don Juan's Reckless Daughter. For those of you who don't know about him, he's a philosopher from Mexico who studied under the tutilage of a Yaqi Indian from Mexico named don Juan Matus, a mystic and a shaman. Joni has mentioned on several occasions that she loves his books and respects his theories on the pursuit of knowledge: "Some people look forward to my next album the way I look forward to the next Carlos Castaneda book," she said. In any case, if you want a real understanding of the reference points on Don Juan's Reckless Daughter, one of her most challenging bodies of work, you should have a browse through this link and do a search on some of his books. Books that include essays like "The Eagle's Gift," "The Feathered Serpent's Flight" and "The Teachings of Don Juan." It's fascinating stuff given the lyrics to some of the songs and imagery from DJRD: "Coils around feathers and talons on scales..." It puts it all into perspective and makes the lyrics on that album all the more relevant to the human spirit. http://www.prismagems.com/castaneda - -Andrew Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 09:51:25 -0800 From: "Mark Connely" Subject: wow, again. This may be the most beautiful album yet. God, my heart breaks listening to "Love". ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 12:59:23 -0600 From: Franklin Shea Subject: Re: JMDL Digest V2002 #509 Tim - enjoyed your thoughtful, intelligent post - Franklin On. Nov. 20, "curious in connecticut," also known as Relayer 211, wrote (in part): " ... objectively, could she [Joni] be called a poet? What exactly is the difference between poerty and song lyrics, anyway?" ... and several people chimed in, the thrust of some of the remarks being mainly that song lyrics are written for that purpose, and poems written to be poems, and sometimes they are interchangeable, and sometimes not. I thought something was missing here. In high school, or before, I learned that some, but not all, poetry has form, but all poetry has content which distinguishes it from prose. Formwise, the most familiar form of poetry has rhyme and meter, and some poetry has more elaborate schemes dealing with numbers of verses and stanzas, internal rhymes and repeated words, phrases or lines, from limericks to sonnets to triolets. But there is also blank verse, which has meter and not rhyme, and free verse, which has neither rhyme nor meter, but still, it has the essential content that distinguishes poetry from prose? The defining mark of poetry, contentwise, as I was taught, is imagery. What is said may paint a picture or establish a mood; these are types of imagery, but do not exhaust the possibilities. Devices such as simile, metaphor, metonymy and synecdoche may be employed. Much commercial music has song lyrics with rhyme and meter, the form of some sorts of poetry, but has no significant imagery, being as pedestrian as ordinary prose, and thus, fails to qualify as poetry. I think we can all agree that Joni's lyrics have imagery galore, as well as, often, layered meanings, and thus, fulfills this content requirement for poetry. We can all think of other songwriters whose lyrics also qualify in this sense. On Nov. 21, John Irving mentioned that poetry is characterized by condensation, the stripping away of the superfluous while retaining the essential, and used the simile of reduced stock in cooking. I haven't thought of that, and it is probably correct, and he may be right, therefore, that on that count, Joni's song lyrics don't qualify as "real" poetry. Someone else on the list mentioned Patti Smith as a songwriter who also writes poetry separately from song lyrics. Others that come to mind are Rod McKuen -- anybody heard about him lately? -- and Joan Baez. On the Joan List, to which I also subscribe, Joan is quoted as saying that she doesn't want to write songs anymore, but wants to continue to write poetry as well as recording and performing live. Of course, the obvious is: Someone else -- some composer -- could set those poems to music. Tim Spong Dover, Del., U.S.A. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 11:24:41 -0800 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: joni's voice > I liked the comparison someone made of Joni's voice to a horn. It is very brassy these days, sort of trumpet-like and squeaky on the trills.< i think this is referring to my comment which was that i think that her voice quality is very similar to the (wayne shorter?) sax...listen to circle game & you can clearly hear the similarities of the two in this song... ******************************************** Kate Bennett: www.katebennett.com Sponsored by Polysonics/Atlantis Sound Labs Over the Moon- "bringing the melancholy world of twilight to life almost like magic" All Music Guide ******************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 11:24:42 -0800 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: Is Joni a poet? aye john >>> A poem wouldn't tell you every picture has it's shadows. It would simply BE the thing. (Not sure if I'm making sense...) The condensation of thought would strip away the declarative and the reader would discover, by discription, or words alone that the shadows mentioned in the piece are in fact the shadows of a painting. That would turn the writing into Poetry.<<< i totally get what you are saying & must add that this is also what many lyricists strive for...finding that particular word that says so much...being instead of describing...somewhat related to basic writing 101- show don't tell... >>>I'm not sure why we would want to cast Joni's lyrics in such an unflattering light as to put them in the realm of Poetry. Especially on the heels of her brilliant triumph T'log. These lyrics are among the most brilliant song lyrics in the history of mankind. As poetry, Wiliam Meredith or Donald Justice is running nuclear rings around this stuff. Why pale her work by such comparison?<<< maybe this comparison thing is more of an intellectual exercise that i find is just so unneccessary when talking about poetry or any creative endeavor for that matter...i do not think that by calling joni's lyrics poetry it lessens her work just because there may be others who may be considered 'better'....as i've said before, for me it all boils down to opinion...there is some art, some literature, some poetry, etc...that many consider to be great that leaves me cold...& vice versa... >>>Which brings up a bit of irony I'm afraid to mention, but thought of when I opened the T'log package: I find it curious that Joni devotes so much of her worth to a medium that she is a minor player in, when as a writer/singer/composer she is unparalleled in the history of mankind. As a painter, the peers her equal or better, just in the southern Cal area alone would popuate a small city.<<< because that is what she has always done her entire career....she has often used her paintings, photos (or had a hand in the art directions) for her albums & this is just a natural extention of that...for her first release STAS, she painted the cover...decades later she is doing the same thing, but now with the available technology & the lushness of the music, she is complementing the sonics by showing us a gallery of her work...nobody else to my knowledge has done this yet & so once again she has followed her creative instincts & given us something new...in a few years perhaps more people will get it...joni's releases have often left people saying huh? (as jeff says, that is a good sign) only to come to the conclusion later that she was actually brilliant... it is the nature of creativity to share what you have created with as little thought of being compared to others as possible (the antimuse as victor called it or the i suck syndrome as jonatha calls it)....(this is the territory left for the critics & academics i suppose) for instance, i am fully aware that i am a minor player in the realm of singing & songwriting but that does not stop me from recording & performing my works (well it almost did at one point)...if i were to consider how many brilliant singers & songwriters there are out there & let that stop me from sharing my creativity you might as well stab me with a flowing pen because not to create & share is soul death... ******************************************** Kate Bennett: www.katebennett.com Sponsored by Polysonics/Atlantis Sound Labs Over the Moon- "bringing the melancholy world of twilight to life almost like magic" All Music Guide ******************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 13:32:46 -0600 From: "J.David Sapp" Subject: voice & bad reviews Listen to the 1st 5 words of T'LOG's TLTISR - I'm sorry that is a f*cking GORGEOUS voice. As to the reviews I would quote our Joan: They open and close you Then they talk like they know you They don't know you Well some are going to knock you And some'll try to clock you peace, david ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 12:13:42 -0800 From: Randy Remote Subject: My 2 Scents on the 'Louge Got my copy from Amazon, spun it this morning.... Her voice: better than I had expected. Better than on TI or TTT. Still, damaged goods, but it is what it is, and is suited much more to her own material than tackling the standards of BSN. There is no escaping comparisons to Billie Holiday. Her phrasing and vocal nuances certainly recall Billie, and this is no accident. Her voice holds up well in most of the songs, but not always, as on the raspy a capella intro to "Love". Throughout, she clearly enunciates her words, often to the point of annoyance, over- pronouncing as if paranoid we might miss something. You wish she would loosen up. The orchestration: mostly ICK! Worst examples of Vince Mendoza's heavy hand, as in "Sex Kills" suggest an amateur orchestrator aggressively packing overblown instrumental blasts into every available open space. John Lennon once advised Joni to tart up her tunes with strings. I have a feeling he is somewhere screaming "enough already!" FTR, stripped of it's rhythm, sounds like stillborn bachelor pad music. "Be Cool" would be a far better track without the distracting orchestration. While "Refuge" begins with an incredibly beautiful harp piece echoing Joni's original guitar arrangement, the song becomes bogged down with saccharine symphonics. Other poor fits stylistically include "Just Like This Train" which sounds slightly baffling, and the hugely ponderous treatment of "Woodstock", at heart a musically simple song with earthy hippie-era lyrics. The male chorus in "Sire of Sorrow" sounds like what it is, a group of hired hands who most likely have never heard a Joni Mitchell record, and recall nothing so much as Mitch Miller's boys lost in a musical fog. In "Hejira", the conga percussion against the orchestra just sounds weird, and Joni's spasmodic vocal phrasing doesn't help. Occasionally, the overly romantic strings fit the material, as in the melancholy "Chinese Cafe". Hearing Joni sing "nothing lasts for long" moved me to tears. A pleasant surprise was "God Must Be A Boogie Man". Here, at last, is a hint of what could have been. Joni fronting some tasteful jazz greats who understand her material, a touch of swing (THANK YOU!) and a tasteful, small string section. "Trouble Child" and "Be Cool" also swing a bit, and suggest a much more effective musical direction. IMO. RR ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 12:25:43 -0800 From: "Russell Bowden" Subject: Reviews Gang, Of all the reviews I've read of TLOG, the one from the Boston Globe is the closest to my own opinion......Personally, I do not find Joni's ravaged and shattered voice, gasping for breath, great songs rendered uninteresting (at best ) and a thick and soupy orchestra that sounds like the BSN (yawn) arrangements (with different lyrics ) when it doesn't sound like some Frank de Vol movie soundtrack from an early 60's Doris Day comedy....something to swoon over. As I've mentioned to a couple of listers ......she shouldn't have bothered....texture, husky, warm voice? It crackles like old parchment with nothing very beautiful written on it. Like Judy Garland in the last years of her life..... Joni is and has been the Queen of my life for 30 years, but this Empress's new clothes are not very pretty on her...cause there's nothing (much) there. Phrasing? Energy? I didn't hear it. I hope it sells well and I'm glad a lot of people like it...but I can't say it's fabulous just because it's Joni....CD-ROM? Booklet with art? Nice, but I don't buy Joni to look at 1" X 2" thumbnails of paintings that I will probably never see or own...... Nobody ever said to VanGogh.....When are you going to paint another Starry Night, man? Who asked her for this mess? Embarrasing and cringe-inducing. Joni, it's probably too late..but for God's sake (and yours) STOP SMOKING.... Yes, I'm blown away by TLOG, too. By how disappointing it is. Love, Russ - --- Russell Bowden - --- russbowden@earthlink.net - --- EarthLink: It's your Internet. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 12:41:00 -0800 From: David Marine Subject: Re: Is Joni a poet? Nay. on 11/23/02 6:17 AM, johnirving at johnirving@tbcnet.com wrote: > The essence of poetry is verbal and conceptual density. Whose definition is this, John? Why do you say this? > Joni Mitchell's lyrics are certainly poetic and beautiful. Beautiful > enough to warrant contemplation and reading. But they are not poetry. > The Complete Poems and Lyrics does not work as a stand alone book of > poetry, in spite of the artful cover and title. It is an unsatifying > read as a book of poetry. Perhaps a professor of English could speak at > length to the whys better than I can. Perhaps. As a poet and a longtime reader of poetry, I find the book very satisfying. Granted, I would guess that readers of Schiller may find something lacking when they read "Ode to Joy." Yes, it's the Beethoven that is missing. But it's still a poem. > I am partnered with a Poet. (He just handed me that passage, btw...) > With over 200,000 books in the house (!!!), I can't move from room to > room without tripping over Poetry in one form or another. From the early > Greeks to the most contemporary writers, he's read it all. I know > exactly what HE would say if I asked him if Joni were a poet. I would be interested to know exactly what he would say. Perhaps you would be kind enough to ask him for us. > Actually, he didn't effort a grunt when I posed the question to him. Perhaps you could ask him again. And if he says that she is not a poet, might you ask him to explain why he believes that? > I'm not sure why we would want to cast Joni's lyrics in such an > unflattering light as to put them in the realm of Poetry. Especially on > the heels of her brilliant triumph T'log. These lyrics are among the > most brilliant song lyrics in the history of mankind. As poetry, Wiliam > Meredith or Donald Justice is running nuclear rings around this stuff. > Why pale her work by such comparison? I would venture to say that many would prefer Joni's poetry to that of Meredith or Justice (or my favorite, Ashberry). The truth is that their poetry is rarely read outside of academic circles. The truth is, in fact, that poetry is rarely read these days at all. Much of it is simply too abstruse for the average reader. For most people today, the poems of their everyday lives are written as lyrics. I do understand the distinction that you and Franklin are attempting to make between poetry and lyrics, between Joni's writing and that of contemporary academic poets. But the distinction is specious. It's all poetry. > Certainly, her painting is lovely and I wouldn't have her put her > brushes down for a moment. Some of her pieces are downright > magnificent... As a singer/composer she is not only one of the top 20 > human beings among the billions living, but billions in the entire > history of the planet as well. As a painter, the peers her equal or > better, just in the southern Cal area alone would populate a small city. > (Not to cast dispersions on her art. Just a statement of how many good > artists there are out there doing good stuff.) If my math is correct, that would mean that there are about 70 million painters worldwide producing pieces that are "downright magnificent." > I would rather contempate her work for what it is: Popular song raised to it's > highest zeinith. You mean like the Iliad? This all comes down to the ongoing dialogue about high art vs. popular art. Everyone draws his or her own borderlines. I'm open to whatever comments you want to make about Joni's or anyone's work. But the argument that Poetry or Painting can only exist within one's own personal borders does not advance understanding, IMO. Best, David ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 17:09:06 EST From: Fauchja@aol.com Subject: Re: voice & bad reviews I agree. I've been amazed by the WHOLE CD but her voice on TLTISR was just etherial. AMAZING!!!!!! (FTR is going to take some time getting used to since I LOVE the original song with the folky guitar. Fauchja ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 16:42:05 -0800 From: Michael Paz Subject: Re: Old hippies, T'log and latest... Christina Did you brush your teeth? And write in your notebook?? Hee hee Paz on 11/21/02 10:53 PM, Christoffer Gudi Sommer-Gleerup at christi@dsr.kvl.dk wrote: > and I'll probably fall through once in a > while. But that's the great thing about coming from another country - people > (except for Paz!) don't expect anything from me, and I can do lots of things > and get away with it! > > Goodnight for now... > Christina ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 18:06:13 -0600 From: "J.David Sapp" Subject: Re: voice & bad reviews its taking me some time as well, and i even have the BSN versions. i think i don't understand how the arrangement paints the words (it has a tension i don't feel in the words) - or maybe i see a different painting in the words. i do like the T'log version though. peace, david ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 16:28:29 -0800 From: "Mark Connely" Subject: awww I'm sorry to hear those voices registering their disappointment that Joni's new work doesn't fit their preconceptions of what it "should" be. I'm sorry for the beauty they are missing. Oh well, huh? mc ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 19:33:05 EST From: TerryM2222@aol.com Subject: Chuck Mitchell Hi all, In today's paper (Detroit) is an announcment that Chuck will be performing in the state (forgot where, but I can check). Included is a photo of him. Is anyone wanting to see what he looks like? If so, I'll be happy to scan it. I don't know if it's a current pix, but I'm guessing it is. Terry www.addconsults.com Return-Path: Received: from rly-xj03.mx.aol.com (rly-xj03.mail.aol.com [172.20.116.40]) by air-xj01.mail.aol.com (v89.21) with ESMTP id MAILINXJ13-1123085324; Sat, 23 Nov 2002 08:53:24 -0500 Received: from smoe.org (jane.smoe.org [199.201.145.78]) by rly-xj03.mx.aol.com (v89.21) with ESMTP id MAILRELAYINXJ39-1123085256; Sat, 23 Nov 2002 08:52:56 1900 Received: from smoe.org (ident-user@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by smoe.org (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id gANDqgkN029599 for ; Sat, 23 Nov 2002 08:52:42 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by smoe.org (8.12.6/8.12.6/Submit) id gANDqgtI029598 for joni-outgoing; Sat, 23 Nov 2002 08:52:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo-r06.mx.aol.com (imo-r06.mx.aol.com [152.163.225.102]) by smoe.org (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id gANDqckN029584 for ; Sat, 23 Nov 2002 08:52:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from AsharaJM@aol.com by imo-r06.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v34.13.) id p.60.2969ffd2 (4328) for ; Sat, 23 Nov 2002 08:52:28 -0500 (EST) From: AsharaJM@aol.com Message-ID: <60.2969ffd2.2b10e21c@aol.com> Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 08:52:28 EST Subject: Re: NJC "Sweet" Baby James? Sweet indeed! To: joni@smoe.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Mailer: AOL 8.0 for Windows US sub 230 X-Converted-To-Plain-Text: from multipart/alternative by demime 0.97c X-Converted-To-Plain-Text: Alternative section used was text/plain Sender: owner-joni@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: AsharaJM@aol.com Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com Bob said about JT: << The list of great songs he has written is pretty long. The list of superb recordings is even longer. He has the gift of being able to make a cover his own (Handyman, You've Got A Friend). He's been recording as long as Joni, and although I don't put him on her level as a writer, a recording artist doesn't last for 5 decades, continuing to produce new work, on meager talent. >> Then Victor said: <> Damn, but I agree wholeheartedly with both of you. I don't judge a musician/songwriter/performer by sheer skill of the pen, ability on their instrument, or quality of their voice, even. For me, it's all about whether they touch my heart and whether I continue putting their music in my CD player. James does this over and over again as does Joni, of course, and CHERYL WHEELER as well. ;-) Hugs, Ashara {Thrilled for Nikki, Mags and Brian who are seeing Cheryl tonight!!} As Paz would say..........I WANNA GEAUX!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ------------------------------ End of onlyJMDL Digest V2002 #356 ********************************* ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she? (http://www.siquomb.com/siquomb.cfm)