From: les@jmdl.com (onlyJMDL Digest) To: onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Subject: onlyJMDL Digest V2002 #354 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/onlyjoni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com Unsubscribe: mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe onlyJMDL Digest Friday, November 22 2002 Volume 2002 : Number 354 Sign up now for JoniFest 2003! http://www.jonifest.com ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Today in History: November 22 [ljirvin@jmdl.com] Travelogue ["Kate Bennett" ] Re: Fwd: you losers/Now with TLOG content [vince ] Debussy [David Marine ] confetti [Dave Cuneo ] Re: My Joni Travelogue [Jerry Notaro ] Ouch review from the Guardian [Deb Messling ] Another ouch review, Straits Times [Deb Messling ] Re: Joni on Will and Grace ["Jim L'Hommedieu" ] Re: Another ouch review, Straits Times ["Bill Dollinger" ] Re: you losers/Now with TLOG content [colin ] 1st French point of view about Tlog ["laurent Fonquerne" ] Re: you losers/Now with TLOG content ["Reuben Bell" ] t'log takes my breath away... [WARREN901@aol.com] t'log takes my breath away ...AGAIN [WARREN901@aol.com] Travelogue Bargain Alert! [Phyliss Ward ] t'log reviews ["Kate Bennett" ] Re: Lyricists as poets??? [David Marine ] Patricia Barber [Jerry Notaro ] Re: joni as a poet [JRMCo1@aol.com] Joni, Will & Grace [Little Bird ] Re: joni as a poet [FMYFL@aol.com] RRe: Mitchell, Dulson and Klein or why can't we go on as 3 (oops wrong list) ["Kate Bennett" ] Re: Lyricists as poets??? [Susan Guzzi ] UK Review -- OUCH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! [BRYAN8847@aol.com] Re: JMDL Digest V2002 #508 - jazz voice [BRYAN8847@aol.com] "Joni's yucky voice" [Little Bird ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 03:17:20 -0500 From: ljirvin@jmdl.com Subject: Today in History: November 22 1969: Joni performed at the Cal State Fullerton Gymnasium in Fullerton, California. Opening acts were C. K. Strong and guitarist John Fahey. More info: http://www.jmdl.com/today/691122.cfm 1975: Joni, as part of the Rolling Thunder Revue with Dylan and others, performed today in the Shapiro Gymnasium at Brandeis University in Waltham, Massachusetts. 1976: The album "Hejira" was released. - ---- For a comprehensive reference to Joni's appearances, consult Joni Mitchell ~ A Chronology of Appearances: http://www.jonimitchell.com/appearances.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 01:01:35 -0800 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: Travelogue well....wow.... i went to borders today & got my copy ($29.99) & it was the last one.... i have not yet had the chance to listen to all of it so i can't comment on my favorites but i love the way the songs move from one to the next like a long composition....it really is a entire composition, each song a different movement or variation....its not just an album of songs....& i love her voice....it is like like rich silk velvet, or a deep golden & red sunset in autumn....i love the woodwinds especially....& the quality of her voice has much of the same quality as (i think it is) wayne shorter's soprano sax...i love the artwork on the enhanced cd, especially the long painting of birch trees & a meadow swirling with gold in the middle....i signed up for her email wondering what that will bring....i think i need to listen to this cd the way jimmy did....with a glass of fine wine in a hot tub under the evening stars....perhaps tomorrow night.... ******************************************** Kate Bennett: www.katebennett.com Sponsored by Polysonics/Atlantis Sound Labs Over the Moon- "bringing the melancholy world of twilight to life almost like magic" All Music Guide ******************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 06:12:26 -0500 From: vince Subject: Re: Fwd: you losers/Now with TLOG content Ken, I agree with your opinion of Will and Grace and my wording was harsh, atrocious and I apologize, just all the posts about how wonderful Will and Grace were, posted earlier in the day were on my mind and I phrased things badly and I feel badly about that, Sorry, very sorry. Vince > > In a message dated 11/21/2002 9:47:44 PM Eastern Standard Time, > revrvl@chartermi.net writes: > > > Come on all you fags out there, > > > > you all missed Will saying "they paved paradise and put up a parking > > lot" > Ken responded > > So, do I have to turn in my membership card? I just don't like Will and > Grace. Neither of the title characters strike me as being very warm or > funny, and the funny guy seems to idolize Cher, and not Joni. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 03:57:45 -0800 From: David Marine Subject: Debussy Hey Ken -- At Joni's BSN concert in LA, Debussy's "Nuages" preceeded her first song. David on 11/21/02 9:00 PM, KJHSF@aol.com at KJHSF@aol.com wrote: Dawntreader sounds more and more like Debussy (La Mer). Is Joni a Debussy fan? And Slouching is pure Stravinsky, and I know she digs him! KEN ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 08:19:23 -0500 From: Dave Cuneo Subject: confetti Ciao joniphiles, Joni says: " Calling the music industry a "corrupt cesspool", the Canadian rages that: "I'm quitting because the business made itself so repugnant to me. Record companies are not looking for talent. They're looking for a look and a willingness to cooperate." Joni, they have been doing that for 50+ years. Don't you remember "... they seem so much confetti on my tv set"? ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 08:16:49 -0500 From: Jerry Notaro Subject: Re: My Joni Travelogue Andrew, Your post about your journey to Joni was one of the finest I've read on Joni in a long while. I especially enjoyed your observations about how we most found her, and that you were drawn to her despite that :-) Glad to have you aboard, Mate. Jerry np: Rosemary Clooney - Have I Stayed Too Long at the Fair ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 08:47:09 -0500 From: Deb Messling Subject: Ouch review from the Guardian Read at http://www.guardian.co.uk/arts/reviews/story/0,11712,844488,00.html Full text below: Betty Clarke Friday November 22, 2002 The Guardian If the health warning isn't enough to put you off cigarettes, the nicotine-ravaged vocals of the once angelic, now gasping Joni Mitchell should. Mitchell's voice is a husky shadow of its former feather-light glory, mirroring how her joyful, playful attitude has dwindled to bitter dissatisfaction. Having announced that this is her final album, Mitchell has reappraised her work with a huge orchestral makeover. She has already explored such classical territory on 2000's Both Sides Now, and here she slides easily among the brass and crashing cymbals of the 70-piece orchestra. Songs from her jazz-fusion era adapt well: the venomous For the Roses is now more scathing and the brooding drama of Just Like This Train has become an attack. Sex Kills, from 1994's Turbulent Indigo, proves her skills as social commentator remain sharp amid the screeching strings. But the blustering instrumentation kills her fragile poetry and the earth-bound vocals negate any magic, rendering this double album a leaden memorial to a shining talent. - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Deb Messling -^..^- messling@enter.net - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- - --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.419 / Virus Database: 235 - Release Date: 11/13/02 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 08:49:51 -0500 From: Deb Messling Subject: Another ouch review, Straits Times hey, don't shoot the messenger. http://straitstimes.asia1.com.sg/life/story/0,4386,156242,00.html Full text: A long and tiring journey Frustrated with the music industry, Joni Mitchell says she's retiring. But her fans deserve far better than Travelogue By Chris Ho LAST week, veteran singer-songwriter Joni Mitchell announced that her new album, Travelogue, would be her last because she feels disillusioned by the music business today. While none can deny that MTV has created an imaging-beast in the marketing of popular music, Mitchell's calling the business as a 'cesspool' sounds like over-reaction. TRAVELLIN' WOMAN: On Travelogue, Joni Mitchell sounds like she has bad jet lag. She hit out at industry executives for 'looking for a look and a willingness to cooperate'. The music business, being what it is today, has indeed relegated many former major-label artistes to indie status: Rickie Lee Jones, John Prine and Warren Zevon, for instance, have long resigned themselves to that fact. 'I've never had a willingness to cooperate,' she said. In that case, she should be glad she is still signed to a major label, especially after Both Sides Now, her last album of standards (and two originals) performed with the London Symphony Orchestra, that was a futile affirmation of her artistic maturity. There was, however, one standout track on it - her update of her own A Case Of You which prompted one to ask why she had not instead recorded an entire album of her own compositions with the LSO. Well, that warranted notion is now the new two-CD, 22-song package named Travelogue. But sad to say, it sounds almost as tedious and pointless as Both Sides Now's inept setting. It certainly will not win her new fans, either. Mitchell is, first and foremost, a distinguished singer-songwriter with a brilliant flair for rhythmic intricacies. Her greatest strength as a song-stylist lies in her idiosyncratic and self-styled folk-rock-jazz leanings. In the past, her music was remarkable in the way she expanded on the folk premise of lyrical rock 'n' roll to embrace jazz and World-beat influences, not to mention her talent for writing in an emotive and poignant language of romantic love. On Travelogue, she sounds like she is singing Vince Mendoza instead - Mendoza being the arranger and conductor of the LSO behind her. Taken out of her innate freewheeling context to go classical (it might work as a point of digression, or as novelty in doses), Mitchell's songs are apt to suffer in an ill-fitting skin. The sweeping dramatics of the 70-piece orchestra tend to overwhelm her free-folk/rock-fusion instincts, turning many of her fine compositions into meandering tales of obtuse anachronism. One example of this is Judgement Of The Moon & Stars (Ludwig's Tune). The tribute to Beethoven must have seemedlike an ideal choice for a classical treatment. The reason why the song worked so well first time around on For The Roses has all to do with Mitchell's free-spirited audacity as a (rock) outsider to re-write classical in her own terms. The song's Beat-informed lyrical-style with its strong protest message and the awkward classical arrangement (in the original) gave it precisely the kind of maverick spirit to work as a personal tribute. In contrast, the new version on Travelogue is glib and flat. The tracks that work on Travelogue are the ones that offer the least orchestral fuss but more rhythmic/jazz inflexions to allow the singer to shine with a husky, worldly candour: Trouble Child, Be Cool, Sex Kills, most of disc two and the album's opener Otis & Marlena which highlights her prophetic vision made 25 years ago that 'Muslims hold up Washington'. It is not easy to sit through most of disc one to get to the good stuff, unless one is a diehard fan. Most pop fans get hungry for nostalgia, especially when an artiste has had a long and illustrious career. Travelogue will no doubt attract fans as a stately new revisit of the 59-year-old singer's past. Ridiculous to say, it also sounds like some infliction of the artiste's disgust of the industry upon her fans, a dread weighed out by more than two hours of near-tedium. It would make a dismal swan song for an extraordinary artiste who should not forget that her fans deserve more of her - be it on a major or an indie label. Hopefully, she will hold her head up high to face the music and dance in a scene which, to borrow a Tom Wolfe title, may well be a bonfire of the vanities. But that is no reason to throw in the towel. As Mitchell herself once wrote in Shades Of Scarlet Conquering: 'Out of the fire and still smouldering a woman must have everything.' Travelogue will be in stores on Nov 28. - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Deb Messling -^..^- messling@enter.net - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- - --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.419 / Virus Database: 235 - Release Date: 11/13/02 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 06:20:01 -0800 (PST) From: "Jim L'Hommedieu" Subject: Re: Joni on Will and Grace Congratulations, Mary Grace. You have taught well. You have passed the torch, as every caring parent should. Lama - --- MGVal@aol.com wrote: > Before I had a chance to respond, both my kids > looked up and yelled: "Joni > Mitchell. Mom!" > > And here I thought that the only thing they paid > attention to was the sound > of my wallet opening on allowance day........... > > MG > (I don't think there's a category for the lurking > level to which I've > sunk......) Yahoo! Mail Plus  Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 09:54:56 -0500 From: "Bill Dollinger" Subject: Re: Another ouch review, Straits Times What a ho! This one was mean just for the sake of being mean. it was so over the top that I feel sorry for the guy. Bill >A long and tiring journey >Frustrated with the music industry, Joni Mitchell says she's retiring. But >her fans deserve far better than Travelogue >By Chris Ho ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 09:53:00 EST From: Kardinel@aol.com Subject: Re: JMDL Digest V2002 #509 My boyfriend is constantly telling me I repeat myself. I hate it when he says it. In fact, one day I send him home fast for saying it. I don't know why but it enrages me when he says it. I told him it was because I was 50. I laughed when I read this on the mail because it's a big issue with us. I better not say anymore because I will be repeating myself!!! ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 09:59:49 -0500 From: "Bill Dollinger" Subject: Re: you losers/Now with TLOG content Joni is a Debussy fan and I believe she has mentioned him in reference to the early work. My membership card is turned in as well. I can't take W&G, I find the characters and their self interest annoying. Selfishness worked for me on Seinfeld because they never tried to sweeten it up, there were no "very special Seinfeld" episodes. Bill - ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Friday, November 22, 2002 12:00 AM Subject: Fwd: you losers/Now with TLOG content Return-path: From: KJHSF@aol.com Full-name: KJHSF Message-ID: <4b.26c6a8b3.2b0f13c9@aol.com> Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 23:59:53 EST Subject: Re: you losers/Now with TLOG content To: revrvl@chartermi.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Mailer: AOL 7.0 for Windows US sub 10634 X-Converted-To-Plain-Text: from multipart/alternative by demime 0.97c X-Converted-To-Plain-Text: Alternative section used was text/plain In a message dated 11/21/2002 9:47:44 PM Eastern Standard Time, revrvl@chartermi.net writes: > Come on all you fags out there, > > you all missed Will saying "they paved paradise and put up a parking > lot" So, do I have to turn in my membership card? I just don't like Will and Grace. Neither of the title characters strike me as being very warm or funny, and the funny guy seems to idolize Cher, and not Joni. Besides, I'm usually shopping for gerbils on Thursday night cuz the weekend's coming up... On a more serious note, has anyone noticed that the vocal on the TLOG version of The Last Time I Saw Richard is mixed differently than the other tunes. Joni's voice is much hotter in the mix on that one track for some reason. The vocals sound as if they are out in front of the orchestra, which works really well. Dawntreader sounds more and more like Debussy (La Mer). Is Joni a Debussy fan? And Slouching is pure Stravinsky, and I know she digs him! KEN ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 09:08:47 -0600 From: "Happy The Man" Subject: Regarding Artwork from Joni Management - ----- Original Message ----- From: Darrell Gilmour To: Happy The Man Sent: Thursday, November 21, 2002 5:48 PM Subject: Re: Miss Mitchell Artwork Dear Craig; Ms. Mitchell does not sell any of her artwork. I'll keep you name on file should this policy change you will be contacted. Regards, Darrell Gilmour ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 07:35:24 -0800 (PST) From: Jenny Goodspeed Subject: Re: you losers/Now with TLOG content Does this mean I *get* a membership card since I love W&G? ;) I find the characters and their self interest annoying. Selfishness worked for > me on Seinfeld because they never > tried to sweeten it up, there were > no "very special Seinfeld" episodes. I at first found the characters' self-interest annoying , but I watched because the writing was so stellar. Now I'm rooting for the characters as well (good thing because this season the writing has taken a bit of a backseat to some "very special moments".) Funny, I never got into Seinfeld (try as I might) because I felt nothing for the characters. Jenny Yahoo! Mail Plus  Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 15:49:09 +0000 From: colin Subject: joni cncert on W&G will and grace also went to a joni cncert in the show. or rather I tink they missed it. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 15:56:58 +0000 From: colin Subject: Re: you losers/Now with TLOG content >Funny, I never got into Seinfeld (try as I might) >because I felt nothing for the characters. > me too. couldn't stomach Seinfeld and afiled to see why it was funny. I enjoy w&g but my fave is Frasier. Very well written and so well done. Very gay too. the brothers are like a gay couple of a certain prententious class! > >Jenny >Yahoo! Mail Plus  Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. >http://mailplus.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 18:46:02 +0100 From: "laurent Fonquerne" Subject: 1st French point of view about Tlog Hi all, Here it is, the first article about Travelogue in France. A very very good article from Nick Kent in "Libiration". I hope you all can read french ;-) I really want to be on next tuesday, so I could buy it. By the way, I wrote something about that record in my Blog last week. I talked about "the rumours" and the waiting of that record... Finally, I am the 1st french guy who talked about Tlog in a public media ! http://www.liberation.fr/page.php?Article=68811# my blog : http://innervoice.blogspot.com/ Laurent Fonquerne. NP : Ultra Nate (Twisted) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 12:49:54 EST From: Murphycopy@aol.com Subject: Re: 1st French point of view about Tlog Laurent writes: << I wrote something about that record in my Blog last week. >> A Tlog blog!? That's great! --Bob ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 12:23:27 -0600 From: Franklin Shea Subject: Re: SJMC "Sweet" Baby James? Bob S wrote, concerning a documentary on James Taylor> One comment of interest from JT was to the effect of "I guess there may be some truth to the idea that I have written the same 12 songs 150 times - but, that's pretty much true of all of us". Franklin> James is exaggerating a wee bit here. He's actually written the same four (OK, maybe six) songs 150 times. The problem is that only the ORIGINAL four to six of them were worthy of recognition - and the attempts at self-emulation were dismal failures, even, at times unwittingly brutal parodies - for all but the most "blinded by the smiling star whose a "good guy", with a very nice voice (certainly no slouch on the guitar either). But the guy has contributed more "filler" to the garbage dump of mediocrity, than mob-run "waste disposal" companies have illegally disposed of "red bag" medical waste to regular dump sites. I mean, he's got what, four, five songs that even "radio"(speaking of when it was much more heterogeneous and actually wasn't controlled by five "freaks" blackmailing tens of millions from corrupt major label promotions departments, run by rats filled with fear - ready to sacrifice music for their jobs) ever did play? I think at least half of those "hits" were covers. It just goes to ABSOLUTELY PROVE that that ONE OR TWO great songs, a million dollar a year (one MUST tour though) doth make. In Jame's defense; I saw an interview with him on one of the TV magazines where they gave him the prefunctory rhetorical question: You've been accused of never venturing far from your original sound, exploring other musical avenues of expression". He just sort of smilingly, smuggly said something like: "I know where my bread and butter is, I still can knock down a mil or two a year touring and I have a core audience that will pay 50-75 dollars to hear me sing "Fire and Rain" and "How Sweet It Is" (a Motown Cover BTW). Hey, writing A hit song can be alot like winning the lottery - over and over. Particularly with a winning personality. The core audience even sings along to the unintentional "parody" filler - is that intentional, or unintentional? lol Bob S> Oh really ? Perhaps it would be better for JT to have said ''that's true of pretty much all of us". (Maybe he did :~), but that's not what I thought I heard - gimme an instant replay, please !) Franklin> He did inadvertently speak for "pretty much all of us". But once again, the exaggeration applies to all of them - 3 or 4, not 12 originals. At least he did qualify his statement by saying "pretty much all of us". That is what makes the great, inspired songwriters so unique; such a national/international treasure: there are so few of them.... I'm talking ongoing originality, form vs. content, as well as music/melody meets words/thoughts here: Burt Bacharach/Hal David - 3/4 "filler-free. Lennon/McCartney, 4/5 "filler-free" (note, it took TWO of them!) EARLY Jagger/Richards; 2/3 "filler free"; Steve Earle- pretty much 1/2 "filler free"; John Haitt; maybe 1/3 -1/2 "filler-free", Bob Welsh of "Fleetwood Mac" fame - hell of a songwriter (AND extraordinary guitar player) at least 1/2-2/3 "filler-free". Steve Stills/Neil Young - I'd say 2/3 across career; L.A. Cowboy - arguably as close to 100% "filler-free" as per above definition, throughout career as anyone has ever gotten. BTY, if you can get 1/2 "filler-free" designation in a career, that's an extraordinary feat, easily capable of landing one in the "Songwriter's Hall of Fame". Females; Carly Simon, near 1/2 non-filler; Carol King, about the same as Carly. (I'm talking over the span of a career, and I'm limiting this to fast-writing, off-the-top of my head spontaneity, so kindly add to this very abbreviated list rather than criticize, wail or howl about missing persons...any/all disagreements, reassessments also welcome. When it comes right down to it - there are so many tens of thousands of accomplished musicians in America alone - yet just a literal "handful" of great songwriters... that is why they are treasures. Bob S>Of her 200 or so songs, I would venture to say that there are well over 100 complete originals that have no redundancies or parallels in JM's work. Certainly, in some cases the musical structure is similar - especially in her earlier work. And in a lyrical context, there is a revisiting of themes (although usually with a fresh take). And on nearly all of her post-70's CD's there is a consistent texture to her music within a given CD - (this was less true of her earlier works) - though the texture changed significantly from CD to CD - think WTRF, then DED, then CMIAR, then NRH, then TI, then TTT. Franklin> Agreed on above statements. She is well into the 3/4 career "filler-free". There were a few clinkers here and there - but WHAT a BODY of WORK. Don't get me wrong - taste-defining contributions all along, everywhere. As to the original thoughts in this post, Joni can be feisty, and get even come out swinging, get intellectually nasty and still fill sheds, auditoriums etc. James HAS to approach the marketing from a little different perspective - "sweet". And let's face it, from the Arbitron tour grosses and rankings - SWEET STILL WORKS... the ol' honey and flies type thing...I guess if a picture is worth a thousand words, one or two viable "hit" songs are worth millions or dollars. Wow - what a world, That is "if you've got personality -charm- personality -walk- personality, -talk- personality..." Is anyone out there singing along with me???? Franklin NP Savoy Brown - "Raw Sienna" a truly overlooked band, guitar god. Chris Youlden's BEAUTIFUL voice with Kim Simmond's elegant, smouldering, authoritative guitar - he single-handedly made the original Flying V, famous (and currently worth 80-120.000 for an unfucked-with original) just sliding and soloing so tastefully that it makes me understand why the electric guitar, when skillfully rendered is perhaps the only instrument more beautiful than a violin. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 13:31:38 -0500 From: "Reuben Bell" Subject: Re: you losers/Now with TLOG content I guess we'll let you in as an honorary member. But you have to learn the song and secret handshake. I actually like W & G...its witty. I find it enjoyable mind candy. Reuben >>> Jenny Goodspeed 11/22/02 10:35AM >>> Does this mean I *get* a membership card since I love W&G? ;) I find the characters and their self interest annoying. Selfishness worked for > me on Seinfeld because they never > tried to sweeten it up, there were > no "very special Seinfeld" episodes. I at first found the characters' self-interest annoying , but I watched because the writing was so stellar. Now I'm rooting for the characters as well (good thing because this season the writing has taken a bit of a backseat to some "very special moments".) Funny, I never got into Seinfeld (try as I might) because I felt nothing for the characters. Jenny Yahoo! Mail Plus Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 10:54:42 -0800 (PST) From: Jenny Goodspeed Subject: Re: SJMC "Sweet" Baby James? > Franklin> James is exaggerating a wee bit here. He's > actually written the same four (OK, maybe six) songs 150 times. The problem is that only the ORIGINAL four to six of them were worthy of recognition > The poster child for musical innovation, James is not. But, if you're saying JT wrote only 4-6 songs worthy of recognition, I have to disagree. Now he "jumped the shark" (hee hee), with the release of Flag, but prior to that wrote lots of great songs and had 2 nearly perfect albums with Mud Slide... and JT. Yes he earns his bread and butter on a few precious and not-so-precious hits - and it is a dismal experience to see him in concert and be surrounded by people who only want to hear songs off his greatest hits - but he has made his mark as a songwriter -- not pushing the boundaries or making waves, but by writing little gems that have their place in the soundtracks of many of our lives (sounds like a bad hallmark, I know, but it is true). Jenny > one of the TV magazines where they gave him the > prefunctory > rhetorical question: You've been accused of never > venturing far from > your original sound, exploring other musical avenues > of expression". > He just sort of smilingly, smuggly said something > like: "I know where > my bread and butter is, I still can knock down a mil > or two a year > touring and I have a core audience that will pay > 50-75 dollars to > hear me sing "Fire and Rain" and "How Sweet It Is" > (a Motown Cover > BTW). Hey, writing A hit song can be alot like > winning the lottery - > over and over. Particularly with a winning > personality. The core > audience even sings along to the unintentional > "parody" filler - is > that intentional, or unintentional? lol > > Bob S> Oh really ? Perhaps it would be better for JT > to have said > ''that's true of pretty much all of us". (Maybe he > did :~), but > that's not what I thought I > heard - gimme an instant replay, please !) > > Franklin> He did inadvertently speak for "pretty > much all of us". But > once again, the exaggeration applies to all of them > - 3 or 4, not 12 > originals. At least he did qualify his statement by > saying "pretty > much all of us". That is what makes the great, > inspired songwriters > so unique; such a national/international treasure: > there are so few > of them.... > > I'm talking ongoing originality, form vs. content, > as well as > music/melody meets words/thoughts here: Burt > Bacharach/Hal David - > 3/4 "filler-free. Lennon/McCartney, 4/5 > "filler-free" (note, it took > TWO of them!) EARLY Jagger/Richards; 2/3 "filler > free"; Steve Earle- > pretty much 1/2 "filler free"; John Haitt; maybe 1/3 > -1/2 > "filler-free", Bob Welsh of "Fleetwood Mac" fame - > hell of a > songwriter (AND extraordinary guitar player) at > least 1/2-2/3 > "filler-free". Steve Stills/Neil Young - I'd say 2/3 > across career; > L.A. Cowboy - arguably as close to 100% > "filler-free" as per above > definition, throughout career as anyone has ever > gotten. BTY, if you > can get 1/2 "filler-free" designation in a career, > that's an > extraordinary feat, easily capable of landing one in > the > "Songwriter's Hall of Fame". Females; Carly Simon, > near 1/2 > non-filler; Carol King, about the same as Carly. > (I'm talking over > the span of a career, and I'm limiting this to > fast-writing, > off-the-top of my head spontaneity, so kindly add to > this very > abbreviated list rather than criticize, wail or howl > about missing > persons...any/all disagreements, reassessments also > welcome. When it > comes right down to it - there are so many tens of > thousands of > accomplished musicians in America alone - yet just a > literal > "handful" of great songwriters... that is why they > are treasures. > > > Bob S>Of her 200 or so songs, I would venture to say > that there are > well over 100 complete originals that have no > redundancies or > parallels in JM's work. > Certainly, in some cases the musical structure is > similar - especially in her > earlier work. And in a lyrical context, there is a > revisiting of themes > (although usually with a fresh take). And on nearly > all of her post-70's CD's > there is a consistent texture to her music within a > given CD - (this was less > true of her earlier works) - though the texture > changed significantly from CD > to CD - think WTRF, then DED, then CMIAR, then NRH, > then TI, then TTT. > > Franklin> Agreed on above statements. She is well > into the 3/4 > career "filler-free". There were a few clinkers > here and there - but > WHAT a BODY of WORK. Don't get me wrong - > taste-defining > contributions all along, everywhere. > > As to the original thoughts in this post, Joni can > be feisty, and get > even come out swinging, get intellectually nasty and > still fill > sheds, auditoriums etc. James HAS to approach the > marketing from a > little different perspective - "sweet". And let's > face it, from the > Arbitron tour grosses and rankings - SWEET STILL > WORKS... the ol' > honey and flies type thing...I guess if a picture is > worth a thousand > words, one or two viable "hit" songs are worth > millions or dollars. > Wow - what a world, That is "if you've got > personality -charm- > personality -walk- personality, -talk- > personality..." Is anyone out > there singing along with me???? > > Franklin > NP Savoy Brown - "Raw Sienna" a truly overlooked > band, guitar god. > Chris Youlden's BEAUTIFUL voice with Kim Simmond's > elegant, > smouldering, authoritative guitar - he > single-handedly made the > original Flying V, famous (and currently worth > 80-120.000 for an > unfucked-with original) just sliding and soloing so > tastefully that > it makes me understand why the electric guitar, when > skillfully > rendered is perhaps the only instrument more > beautiful than a violin. Yahoo! Mail Plus  Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 14:03:30 EST From: WARREN901@aol.com Subject: t'log takes my breath away... ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 14:35:00 EST From: WARREN901@aol.com Subject: t'log takes my breath away ...AGAIN sorry about the previous misfire guys, i guess i was so out of breath that i just lost it ! this would be a good opportunity to say i'm so caught up in T'log i don't know whether i'm coming of going. GASP...a few thoughts as i come up for air: the packaging...do i even need to say how gorgeous the whole thing is. the sound...it fills me , flows through me, and then fills me again ! some standouts...' refuge of the roads ' a stunner to begin with and she has taken it up several notches. the harps in this rendition are superb...i love the change of lyric from ' he drank and womanized ' to ' a drunk with sage's eyes.' ( that joni...always playing around with her lyrics ! ) ' amelia ' the original made me tear up when i heard it...this update touches me so deeply i cry just thinking about it ! ' the sire of sorrow ( job's sad song )' was very cathartic for me when it was first released, having lost my lover to AIDS just a short time before...this new version is even more so. i love the male chorus she has added as the antagonists, it is so the right touch ! and ' the dawntreader ' not one of my choices for all time favorite...has just gotten a rank of " i can't believe this wasn't an all time favorite before, what was i thinking ?" well...gotta go i'm experiencing withdrawl. more later . jonily yours, warren keith p.s. ' otis and marlena ' is the BOMB !!! ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 11:50:41 -0800 From: Phyliss Ward Subject: Travelogue Bargain Alert! I just returned from Costco where I was shocked to see Travelogue for $23.99! They NEVER have Joni at Costco! Phyliss, kicking herself for paying $34.99 at the Wherehouse ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 12:34:52 -0800 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: t'log reviews you know i really think so many of these reviewers i have read lately are just not getting it... i am not one of those 'joni can do no wrong' fans, nor do i listen to a lot of classical music or jazz for that matter...my musical tastes these days tend towards simple arrangements of great songs from singer songwriters...so i wouldn't expect me to like this record as much as i do... i have not yet listened to the whole thing & so far have only listened once but it took no warming up to for me...i really love it! it seems to me these are the same reviewers who, as usual, are looking backwards for joni to do what she used to do instead of being open to the fact that she might just be, once again, breaking new ground....they want joni to be singing, arranging, playing, etc songs the way she used to...when she left folk for jazz many resisted & now that she has left that kind of jazz for more more orchestral arrangements, they still resist... some things have not changed since when dylan picked up the electric guitar....its so strange to hear people complaining about her voice as if they still want her to be 25 years old...i love the texture & sound of her voice- it is that of a mature woman & has so much warmth & wise beauty to it...i don't even hear limitations...so what if she doesn't have several octaves to work with...since when did that have anything to do with conveying real emotion (reference whitney & all for that) joni has always considered herself to be a composer...reading her reviews throughout the years, she has often described her work in compositional & painterly terms....it is so natural she would do this... i really think, once again, she is creating a whole new medium with this release- her voice, the compostion, the paintings... btw, i never did purchase both sides now because i'm not all that interested in hearing her do other people's works...i'm in it for her songwriting & composition i can't believe some of the adjectives that some are using to describe the music & her voice on this record...did they listen to the same one i did? some of these reviewers seem to have had their musical tastes severely hampered by listening to too much below average dreck.... ******************************************** Kate Bennett: www.katebennett.com Sponsored by Polysonics/Atlantis Sound Labs Over the Moon- "bringing the melancholy world of twilight to life almost like magic" All Music Guide ******************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 12:37:52 -0800 From: David Marine Subject: Re: Lyricists as poets??? Hey List -- I am enjoying this thread, and hope it keeps unraveling. It IS both valid and interesting (IMO) to discuss, as Franklin and others have done, the way in which words and music can combine to create something of particular beauty and power, and obviously Joni is a master of this. As Kate has pointed out, Joni clearly considers herself a poet. And of course she should. Again, to clarify, ALL lyrics are poetry. Poetry has been created for thousands of years. It existed long before the written word. Much of what we consider the best of Elizabethan poetry was chanted or sung. So was Homer's poetry, etc. Maybe it would be better to reformulate the question: do Joni's poems need to be matched to her melodies in order to retain their beauty and power? To me, the answer with many of them is a resounding NO. "The Complete Poems and Lyrics" is the best evidence. David ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 15:38:39 -0500 From: Jerry Notaro Subject: Patricia Barber 5 Star review from Stereophile: Patricia Barber is more than a poet, more than a singer, more than a songwriter. None of these categories alone can do justice to the fullness of her artistic presentation. Her strikingly thoughtful and clever lyrics seem naked on the page. She twists each syllable rhythmically, attaching subtle shades of melodic variation in a voice that often whispers but never shouts. Her audacious approach to melody and song structure should place her in rare company as a jazz singer, yet this work begs to be seen more in the context of crossover masters from Tony Bennett to Joni Mitchell. And that's just the beginning of the review! Jerry np: Eva Cassidy - Imagine ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 15:44:50 -0500 From: JRMCo1@aol.com Subject: Re: joni as a poet My little desk dictionary defines "poet" as "a creative artist of great sensitivity." Fits Joni to a "T" methinks.(But now I'm wondering how the expression "to a T" originated. Anyone? Class? Jimmy? Jenny? Bueller? :-) Bonus definition: poetaster - n. : an inferior poet. (and looky...there's a picture of eminem next to it) ;-) - -Julius ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 12:52:07 -0800 (PST) From: Little Bird Subject: Joni, Will & Grace I agree, Kate, that the reviewers have missed the point. And I haven't even heard the record yet! I've heard some songs via the Website and have been intrigued to the point of total excitement. I am also not a "Joni can do no wrong" fan and actually dislike some of her songs, but Travelogue is so vastly different than anything anyone has done, fans just have to be enamoured. I frankly think that people are a little afraid of it. If I was a reviewer not familiar with Joni's pursuit of new territory as the undercurrent of her musical development, I'd be totally intimidated by Travelogue. "Hmmm, which box do I put it in? The Britney box? No. The McCartney box? No. Classical? No. Jazz? Not really..." I see the potential for insanity. As for Will & Grace, I may as well weigh in. I hate it. I'm gay and find it sort of offensive to watch two straight men act like gay men. Something about it rubs me the wrong way. It's the new version of "blackface" in show business, getting heteros to play homos as stereotypically as possible while homos are eternally kept in the broadway chorus lines. Show me a show about REAL gay lives and maybe I'll be interested. And, no, don't get me started on Queer As Folk... - -Andrew Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 15:53:54 EST From: FMYFL@aol.com Subject: Re: joni as a poet In a message dated 11/22/02 3:45:40 PM Eastern Standard Time, JRMCo1@aol.com writes: > My little desk dictionary defines "poet" as "a creative artist of great > sensitivity." Fits Joni to a "T" methinks.(But now I'm wondering how the > expression "to a T" originated. Anyone? Class? Jimmy? Jenny? Bueller? :-) > > I think "to a T" comes from a draftsman's T-Square (an exact instrument). So do I get another bottle of Veuve Clicquot, Julius :~) Jimmy ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 13:12:32 -0800 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: RRe: Mitchell, Dulson and Klein or why can't we go on as 3 (oops wrong list) definately her loss but michelle (& steve's) gain! Kate wrote: > steve, word on the street is that it was those seabird pants of yours that > you insisted on showing her that caused her to cross you off her list of > eligible bachelors... :~} Kakki replied >>Awww...Joni's big mistake LOL ;-) Kakki, hoping Joni would find someone as nice as Mr. Dulson<< ******************************************** Kate Bennett: www.katebennett.com Sponsored by Polysonics/Atlantis Sound Labs Over the Moon- "bringing the melancholy world of twilight to life almost like magic" All Music Guide ******************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 15:25:30 -0600 From: Franklin Shea Subject: Re: SJMC "Sweet" Baby James? > > Franklin> James is exaggerating a wee bit here. He's >> actually written the same four (OK, maybe six) songs >150 times. The problem is that only the ORIGINAL four >to six of them were worthy of recognition > > >Jenny responded>The poster child for musical innovation, James is not. > But, if you're saying JT wrote only 4-6 songs worthy >of recognition, I have to disagree. > >Now he "jumped the shark" (hee hee), with the release >of Flag, but prior to that wrote lots of great songs >and had 2 nearly perfect albums with Mud Slide... and >JT. > >Yes he earns his bread and butter on a few precious >and not-so-precious hits - and it is a dismal >experience to see him in concert and be surrounded by >people who only want to hear songs off his greatest >hits - but he has made his mark as a songwriter -- not >pushing the boundaries or making waves, but by writing >little gems that have their place in the soundtracks >of many of our lives (sounds like a bad hallmark, I >know, but it is true). Franklin> An undying JT fan I'm obviously not...and I stand by my "personal" assessments; but I'm sure he'd be wonderful dinner company - - just imagine the stories he could tell spanning a thirty year period. I also think he is a VERY underrated acoustic guitar picker. In short, I've got nothing against James, his successes, his career, his financial windfalls. Not in the least. Seems to me that it couldn't happen to a nicer guy. I can understand and appreciate that he's been contributed musical blessings in yours, as well as many others lives Jenny. I did think some of my "opinions" might garner a little disagreement - some more honest and considerate than others. As always Jenny, your response was the picture of composure, grace and consideration. But, then again - what else would I expect from one such as you? ;) Franklin NP Rod Stewart "Every Picture Tells a Story" at least 4/5ths "filler-free". Classic, original, groundbreaking sound and songs. Who hasn't loved a "Maggie"? Ron Woods! Now can that guy play acoustic/electric/slide in an original way or what - almost - and I emphasize ALMOST - the Ry Cooder of England. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 13:26:51 -0800 (PST) From: Susan Guzzi Subject: Re: Lyricists as poets??? - --- David Marine wrote: > As Kate has pointed out, Joni clearly considers herself a poet. And of > course she should. Again, to clarify, ALL lyrics are poetry. Poetry has been > created for thousands of years. It existed long before the written word. > Much of what we consider the best of Elizabethan poetry was chanted or sung. > So was Homer's poetry, etc. > > Maybe it would be better to reformulate the question: do Joni's poems need > to be matched to her melodies in order to retain their beauty and power? To > me, the answer with many of them is a resounding NO. "The Complete Poems and > Lyrics" is the best evidence. > All this talk about poetry now.... I completely agree David and Kate. Joni's lyrics and I know cause I have done this with people in the past can absolutely be recited as poetry! Too many of you have pigeon-holed all poets, here. There are haikus and sonnets and prose and some that rhyme and others that don't some are concise and concentrated others are totally free form. Have some of you never been to a poetry slam?! Now your opinion on whether it is art or good I do not question. Other have cited Joni lyrics here that absolutely stand alone as poetry. Joni's lyrics - the bulk of her works anyway - can without question be considered poetry and therefore, the Guz declares our Joni a poet. So be it! ;-) In fact before fest this year I believe a few of us here or off line discussed doing recitation of Joni lyrics as poetry. Still think it would be a fun workshop or project. Especially for some of our more theatrical listers/festers. Having known a 2x National Poetry Slam winner, I can tell you they are great story tellers and would never try to be so defining as to eliminate another style or be so biased on what their opinion of poetry is or should be. They just love the art and freedom of expression and our Joni has all that going for her in her poetry - and more! Peace, Susan Yahoo! Mail Plus  Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 17:05:38 -0500 From: BRYAN8847@aol.com Subject: UK Review -- OUCH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Couldn't get much worse than this. I don't agree with her take on the music but I can understand that, for most critics and the public, the voice is now too far gone. This is sad. Betty Clarke Friday November 22, 2002 The Guardian Buy Joni Mitchell: Travelogue at Amazon.co.uk More pop CD reviews If the health warning isn't enough to put you off cigarettes, the nicotine-ravaged vocals of the once angelic, now gasping Joni Mitchell should. Mitchell's voice is a husky shadow of its former feather-light glory, mirroring how her joyful, playful attitude has dwindled to bitter dissatisfaction. Having announced that this is her final album, Mitchell has reappraised her work with a huge orchestral makeover. She has already explored such classical territory on 2000's Both Sides Now, and here she slides easily among the brass and crashing cymbals of the 70-piece orchestra. Songs from her jazz-fusion era adapt well: the venomous For the Roses is now more scathing and the brooding drama of Just Like This Train has become an attack. Sex Kills, from 1994's Turbulent Indigo, proves her skills as social commentator remain sharp amid the screeching strings. But the blustering instrumentation kills her fragile poetry and the earth-bound vocals negate any magic, rendering this double album a leaden memorial to a shining talent. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 17:48:42 -0500 From: BRYAN8847@aol.com Subject: Re: JMDL Digest V2002 #508 - jazz voice > As I listen to Travelogue, I notice more and more that Joni is in fine voice > for swingin'! > Be Cool, Flat Tires, God Must Be A Boogie Man, these all come across so well > and her vocal energy seems heightened, and not just because > of the > up-tempo-ness of these compositions I agree, the jazz(y) tunes on T'log are clearly vocally superior to the rest (in general, though Woodstock, Dawntreader and Borderline are "strong" vocals too). I also like the way she jazzily croons her way through For the Roses, a new approach. Frankly though, I am having a lot of trouble getting around the smoker's voice in many of the songs. I find it distracting. I think from this point on the critics (it has already begun) are going to savage Joni for vocal deterioration. Bryan ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 15:05:34 -0800 (PST) From: Little Bird Subject: "Joni's yucky voice" I met a man in Montreal once in the "M" section of a record store who was looking through the Joni CDs. I told him I was a fan too and we looked through some of them together. He said he only liked her music up until Wild Things Run Fast because after that, he said, "Her voice got yucky." I actually prefer the husky alto to her peaks-n'-valleys soprano of days gone by. I think her voice reached its ideal pitch in the mid to late 70s when it could glide seamlessly over many octaves and multi-syllabic phrases with ease. But I agree that the critics will generally not be kind to Joni's singing capabilities this time around. I noticed the deterioration of her voice even since Both Sides Now but tend to like it's rusty effect, over all. I liked the comparison someone made of Joni's voice to a horn. It is very brassy these days, sort of trumpet-like and squeaky on the trills. However, I think it will only serve to marginalize her even further. If fans of her work are finding it distracting, imagine what the mainstream public will think. They won't really know what to make of it. I imagine touring this album may prove to be difficult for Joni if her voice is in rough shape. - -Andrew Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now ------------------------------ End of onlyJMDL Digest V2002 #354 ********************************* ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she? (http://www.siquomb.com/siquomb.cfm)