From: les@jmdl.com (onlyJMDL Digest) To: onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Subject: onlyJMDL Digest V2002 #353 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/onlyjoni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com Unsubscribe: mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe onlyJMDL Digest Friday, November 22 2002 Volume 2002 : Number 353 Sign up now for JoniFest 2003! http://www.jonifest.com ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: Is Joni a poet? Nay. ["RSM" ] Re: JMDL Digest V2002 #505 - painting detail ["kakki" ] you losers [vince ] Re: made re dun dant ["kakki" ] TLOG Cost and Nicotine ["Russell Bowden" ] Mitchell, Dulson and Klein or why can't we go on as 3 (oops wrong list) [] Re: Mitchell, Dulson and Klein or why can't we go on as 3 (oops wrong list) ["kakki" ] speculation.....well, who's to know ["mia ortlieb" ] Joni on Will and Grace [MGVal@aol.com] that's no slut, that's a whore! ["Mark Connely" ] Old hippies, T'log and latest... [Christoffer Gudi Sommer-Gleerup Subject: Re: Is Joni a poet? Nay. First, a caveat: I am not a poet and don't play one on TV. I don't even read much poetry. But, regarding whether Joni's lyrics are poetry or not, I think that the suggestion that they are not poetry because they are not "condensed" or "stripped down" overlooks the majority of what we call poetry. Certainly there is poetry, particularly modern poetry, that is very spare in use of words. However, just because it is not a haiku does not make it less than poetry. Compare which is spare, more condensed?: Once upon a midnight dreary, while I pondered, weak and weary, Over many a quaint and curious volume of forgotten lore- While I nodded, nearly napping, suddenly there came a tapping, As of some one gently rapping, rapping at my chamber door. "'Tis some visitor," I muttered, "tapping at my chamber door- Only this, and nothing more." [ Poe] "The big man arrives Disco dancers greet him Plainclothes cops greet him Small town, big man, fresh lipstick glistening Sophomore jive >From victims of typewriters The band sounds like typewriters The big man he's not listening His eyes hold Edith His left hand holds his right What does that hand desire That he grips it so tight" [JM] LET us go then, you and I, When the evening is spread out against the sky Like a patient etherised upon a table; Let us go, through certain half-deserted streets, The muttering retreats Of restless nights in one-night cheap hotels And sawdust restaurants with oyster-shells: Streets that follow like a tedious argument Of insidious intent To lead you to an overwhelming question... Oh, do not ask, "What is it?" Let us go and make our visit. [TS Eliot] A wristwatch, a ring, a downstairs screamer Edgy-black cracks of the sky "Pin cushion prick fix this poor bad dreamer" "Money" cold shadows reply Pawnshops crisscrossed and padlocked Corridors spit on prayers and pleas Sparks fly up from sweet fire Black soot of lady release [JM] I would hunt down examples of lyrics that are not, to my mind, quality poetry, but that would be too easy. My conclusion is that the only reason Joni's lyrics are not considered poetry is that they are not usually sold that way. In fact, the shocking thing is that lyrics are so readily available on the net while "modern" poetry is not. I tried to find Quincy Troupe's "poem for Magic Johnson" as a great example of modern poetry but you can't find it published on the web. It makes sense that you can't because otherwise you wouldn't buy it in the stores. But all of JM'd lyrics are there for the copying and reading. (As an intellectual property attorney, I am baffled by this) And it is beautiful stuff. Ron in LA - ----- Original Message ----- From: "johnirving" To: Sent: Thursday, November 21, 2002 3:55 PM Subject: Is Joni a poet? Nay. > I treasure Joni as much as any human being, but the best I would say > regarding Joni is that her music is Art, and the words are deeply > poetic, but it's not quite poetry. And not being poetry removes her from > being a poet. > > I would define poetry as a literary art form of condensation. It is an > intellectual play of words to get at the deepest possible expression of > thought and feeling by a deep understanding and consentration of word > play. Many of her songs are much like this, but not to the nth degree > that the form of Poetry, as we know it, would occur. She would have to > do more 'stripping', more condensing and more word play with the written > line to enter the true realm of poetry: > > spirit friend > sage's eyes > sanity > sanity contemplating crying > > I think it's that border that Joni finds offensive, at least enough that > she's often spoken of her dislike of poetry. It's too much of an > intellectual game. Only half the crowd 'get's it.' And the mental game > strips away some of the power of the thing to communicate and affect the > emotions of the reader. Well, save the great poets like Elisabeth Bishop > and the like. > > Another way to look at is cooking. Sugar and water are as to caramel as > Morning Morgantown is to Poetry, big P. They both have the same > ingredients, but you have to do a certain thing to sugar and water > before it enters the catagory of being caramel. And a reduced stock is > nothing like Stock. > > But the fact that Joni is not a poet doesn't make her work any less > Poetic or Art. --I am blown away that this tiny little woman (5'7, maybe > 110 lbs.) can produce such spectacular vision! Travelogue has been like > a visual jewel for me. I see Caravaggio brushwork, deep dark darks and > brilliant cries for light in Sire of Sorrow. This is some of the richest > arrangements I've ever heard. My hat's off to everyone involved, > especially Mendoza. The only minute flaw to T'log is the lack of credits > and commentary regarding the performers in the printed word. The > arranger, band, orchestra and studio crew joined hands with Joni and > produced one of the finest recordings ever made, I think. This is > special stuff. > > So special that I think Joni will be lifted to a new place as well. If > she does produce new material, "WATCH OUT!" It's going to have a sound > totally new and all it's own. Even if it's just a spare voice, guitar > and drums. Her ability to emote the line, play with the melodic flow and > rhythm of it are light years improved over anything she's done before. > I'm sure she's out to take full advantage of that in any new work. And I > think Mendosa and the orchestra have helped open up that fresh new place > for her as a singer. You can tell she's responding to the excitement of > the aural sounds around her. She's using her voice as a jazz instrument > against the band. It's gorgeous stuff. > > I love how she cuts loose with "Where is hope?" > !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! > > You can feel the sense of desperation there that we all felt Sept. 11th > 2001. She is the queen of beauty hands down. > > Not Poetry. -Better. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 16:56:53 -0800 From: "kakki" Subject: Re: JMDL Digest V2002 #505 - painting detail The painting is from an actual photograph which I saw on a 9/11 memorial site and someone also told me it was on the cover of one of the TV Guides. Don't know if Joni got it from there or from the photos she took herself that day from the TV. It is spooky how the image is not "enhanced" but really did contain those faces in the smoke and flames. Kakki Brian wrote: > Here's what I see there -- a "devil" face in the smoke to the side of the tower and a horrified man's face in the smoke above the tower (don't have it in front of me right now, but I believe that was it). While I personally don't believe in the existence of the Big S (could it be Satan?), I have to admit the "devil face"-like image that showed in the smoke on that horrible day was compelling -- many of you probably saw it in a photo that appeared in newspapers a few days later. I'm assuming Joni modeled that part of the painting on that photo. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 02:21:20 +0000 From: "Timothy Spong" Subject: Re: Is Joni a poet? On. Nov. 20, "curious in connecticut," also known as Relayer 211, wrote (in part): " ... objectively, could she [Joni] be called a poet? What exactly is the difference between poerty and song lyrics, anyway?" ... and several people chimed in, the thrust of some of the remarks being mainly that song lyrics are written for that purpose, and poems written to be poems, and sometimes they are interchangeable, and sometimes not. I thought something was missing here. In high school, or before, I learned that some, but not all, poetry has form, but all poetry has content which distinguishes it from prose. Formwise, the most familiar form of poetry has rhyme and meter, and some poetry has more elaborate schemes dealing with numbers of verses and stanzas, internal rhymes and repeated words, phrases or lines, from limericks to sonnets to triolets. But there is also blank verse, which has meter and not rhyme, and free verse, which has neither rhyme nor meter, but still, it has the essential content that distinguishes poetry from prose? The defining mark of poetry, contentwise, as I was taught, is imagery. What is said may paint a picture or establish a mood; these are types of imagery, but do not exhaust the possibilities. Devices such as simile, metaphor, metonymy and synecdoche may be employed. Much commercial music has song lyrics with rhyme and meter, the form of some sorts of poetry, but has no significant imagery, being as pedestrian as ordinary prose, and thus, fails to qualify as poetry. I think we can all agree that Joni's lyrics have imagery galore, as well as, often, layered meanings, and thus, fulfills this content requirement for poetry. We can all think of other songwriters whose lyrics also qualify in this sense. On Nov. 21, John Irving mentioned that poetry is characterized by condensation, the stripping away of the superfluous while retaining the essential, and used the simile of reduced stock in cooking. I haven't thought of that, and it is probably correct, and he may be right, therefore, that on that count, Joni's song lyrics don't qualify as "real" poetry. Someone else on the list mentioned Patti Smith as a songwriter who also writes poetry separately from song lyrics. Others that come to mind are Rod McKuen -- anybody heard about him lately? -- and Joan Baez. On the Joan List, to which I also subscribe, Joan is quoted as saying that she doesn't want to write songs anymore, but wants to continue to write poetry as well as recording and performing live. Of course, the obvious is: Someone else -- some composer -- could set those poems to music. Tim Spong Dover, Del., U.S.A. _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 21:46:40 -0500 From: vince Subject: you losers Come on all you fags out there, you all missed Will saying "they paved paradise and put up a parking lot"??????? I thought there would be 18 posts on that right now. and I don't even like the show and I caught it... Vince ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 18:06:51 -0800 From: "kakki" Subject: Re: made re dun dant Jimmy, I also remembered Ashara's report (Part 3) to the list from Toronto (at http://www.smoe.org/lists/onlyjoni/v2001.n328 ) relating what Joni said at the tribute about the paintings: "On the question of how have your paintings changed since September 11th? Joni says, 'There were two wars in my life on September 11th. I broke up with my boyfriend. He complained that I repeat myself too much, and I do repeat myself too much. Especially now because I'm writing my book, so I'm writing a lot of my yarns in the oral tradition.' She said she took a lot of pictures with a paper camera on September 11th, and she saw a lot of figures in the smoke. She started painting what she called "repetism" doing 5 double images. She said by painting, it helped her to become emotionally detached." Now me: When Joni was talking about repeating herself, she said her mother also did that. I laughed and told her that my mother and I also repeat ourselves frequently. Like what's the big deal with this guy? ;-) Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 18:57:10 -0800 From: "Russell Bowden" Subject: TLOG Cost and Nicotine Gang, I paid $31.99 at Amoeba Records on Haight St. in San Francisco. I hope Joni stops smoking. Love, Russ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 19:14:38 -0800 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: Mitchell, Dulson and Klein or why can't we go on as 3 (oops wrong list) steve commented >>It is significant, of course, that this is LESS THAN A MONTH after Michele and I got married. I always figured Joni's handlers gave her the news that I was no longer available, and she said "Damn! I really wanted that guy. Guess I might as well marry Klein..."<< steve, word on the street is that it was those seabird pants of yours that you insisted on showing her that caused her to cross you off her list of eligible bachelors... :~} ******************************************** Kate Bennett: www.katebennett.com Sponsored by Polysonics/Atlantis Sound Labs Over the Moon- "bringing the melancholy world of twilight to life almost like magic" All Music Guide ******************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 18:33:13 -0800 From: "kakki" Subject: Re: Mitchell, Dulson and Klein or why can't we go on as 3 (oops wrong list) Kate wrote: > steve, word on the street is that it was those seabird pants of yours that > you insisted on showing her that caused her to cross you off her list of > eligible bachelors... :~} Awww...Joni's big mistake LOL ;-) Kakki, hoping Joni would find someone as nice as Mr. Dulson ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 22:44:05 -0500 From: "Jim L'Hommedieu \(Lama\)" Subject: RE: waiting... The other day, I showed the TRAVELOGUE artwork to a visitor to the office. He said, "Nice. Would you burn a copy for me?" I roared with laughter and he walked away, all dejected. It turns out he was serious. I just couldn't believe he was so impressed with the visuals and his first thought was to steal the music. (?) Wacky. Lama ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 21:45:09 -0600 From: "mia ortlieb" Subject: speculation.....well, who's to know Deb wrote: <> Being familiar with Joni's creative sense of humour, is it possible she is making a stab at the music industry with these golden eggs, using them as a statement by saying "TOSS THIS!" ? Also, might the women in the Bin Laden painting have anything to do with the great sex these killers are promised to have in their afterlife as their just rewards for mass murder? Joni was right on the mark about "SEX KILLS"! I have not yet seen or heard T'log as I have requested the album from Santa for Xmas. But I don't think I can hold out! ARGH! Mia _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 20:04:55 -0800 From: "Mark or Travis" Subject: Re: speculation.....well, who's to know > Being familiar with Joni's creative sense of humour, is it possible she is > making a stab at the music industry with these golden eggs, using them as a > statement by saying "TOSS THIS!" ? I don't have Travelogue yet, so I haven't seen the paintings but I've been thinking about this one. Maybe what she's saying is that, in this case, she's offering two golden eggs, one from each of her oeuvres - music and painting. Mark E in Seattle ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 23:06:06 -0500 From: "Jim L'Hommedieu \(Lama\)" Subject: RE: Okay I have to ask! How do we buy the paintings! Sorry. I signed a non-disclosure agreement. Lama Not! > -----Original Message----- > The sale of her original artwork for the cover of The Hissing Of > Summer Lawns went for something like $50,000 U.S. at auction a > few years ago, did it not? > -Andrew ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 00:00:37 EST From: KJHSF@aol.com Subject: Fwd: you losers/Now with TLOG content Return-path: From: KJHSF@aol.com Full-name: KJHSF Message-ID: <4b.26c6a8b3.2b0f13c9@aol.com> Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 23:59:53 EST Subject: Re: you losers/Now with TLOG content To: revrvl@chartermi.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Mailer: AOL 7.0 for Windows US sub 10634 X-Converted-To-Plain-Text: from multipart/alternative by demime 0.97c X-Converted-To-Plain-Text: Alternative section used was text/plain In a message dated 11/21/2002 9:47:44 PM Eastern Standard Time, revrvl@chartermi.net writes: > Come on all you fags out there, > > you all missed Will saying "they paved paradise and put up a parking > lot" So, do I have to turn in my membership card? I just don't like Will and Grace. Neither of the title characters strike me as being very warm or funny, and the funny guy seems to idolize Cher, and not Joni. Besides, I'm usually shopping for gerbils on Thursday night cuz the weekend's coming up... On a more serious note, has anyone noticed that the vocal on the TLOG version of The Last Time I Saw Richard is mixed differently than the other tunes. Joni's voice is much hotter in the mix on that one track for some reason. The vocals sound as if they are out in front of the orchestra, which works really well. Dawntreader sounds more and more like Debussy (La Mer). Is Joni a Debussy fan? And Slouching is pure Stravinsky, and I know she digs him! KEN ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 01:11:56 -0500 From: "Bree Mcdonough" Subject: Re: paintings Hi Mark..glad you are here. I don't know if anyone answered your questions about the lady behind bush? I've at least 100 + posts to read.. having been immersed in T'log since Monday. The old lady is what they called in Medieval times a ..SUCCUBUS...one who would come in the middle of the night and have sexual intercourse with a man. (maybe a very prominent man or powerful one) So Joni's intent? Still pondering this one. Bree......still floored by T'log.. >Hi, new to the list here, looongtime joniphile. >Just got Travelogue (at Borders, on sale, $28.99) >"God Must Be A Boogieman".... YEEEOOOOW! >All great stuff. >I am intrigued by the paintings in the center of the booklet. >The Bush painting... what's happening there? Is that a burning stick above >his head? >There is a bible story of god talking to satan about Joshua, asking satan: >Is he not like a burning stick pulled from the fire?" >And who is the sly old crone? >And what's up with the slut riding Osama? >Tell me, please. >-mc > > >Persons who find themselves disenchanted with the whole system of >situational obligations in society may seek out those places where reverie >is likely to be tolerated. > >--Erving Goffman _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 01:25:25 EST From: MGVal@aol.com Subject: Joni on Will and Grace Well, I'm sure that I've been beaten to the punch here but we were accidentally watching this episode and when Will and Grace looked over to where the site of their first meeting, "Paradise Bar," used to be and saw a parking lot, Will said: "wouldn't you know it: they paved paradise and put up a parking lot." Before I had a chance to respond, both my kids looked up and yelled: "Joni Mitchell. Mom!" And here I thought that the only thing they paid attention to was the sound of my wallet opening on allowance day........... MG (I don't think there's a category for the lurking level to which I've sunk......) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 22:28:44 -0800 From: "Mark Connely" Subject: that's no slut, that's a whore! OK, so the bible tells of the Whore of Babylon, who is like the spirit of the anti-christ, and she is riding on the Beast of Revelation. The Beast is the force(s) that culminate in Armageddon. Am I getting warmer? Huh? mc ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 07:53:21 +0100 From: Christoffer Gudi Sommer-Gleerup Subject: Old hippies, T'log and latest... Paz wrote: she is getting old herself and right before my eyes. Which might be the reason that I said to Susan that I called y'all old hippies and not old peoples, even though, this was addressed to Maggie. It seems to me like they both would want to slap me for saying either one, so I should probably just ignore the whole thing... Anyway, my 0.2 (or less) on T'log...the album has grown very rapidly on me and I'm discovering the songs 'de nouveau'. I've gone from being somewhat annoyed by the falling quality of her voice to hearing the beauty of it. The songs from TI that I for that same reason wasn't so crazy about before, have become among my very favorites. Others are Judgement..., For The Roses, Just Like This Train, Hejira, Cherokee Louise, and The Dawntreader. These songs as well as the rest of the album are haunting. Nothing by other artists I put on after these CD's can pass the Joni-standard-test, so I usually just press repeat... Also after getting this album, I've decided, though, to give BSN another chance (this album was put back on the shelf shortly after purchase, because I thought the songs were overdone). Hopefully, this one will grow on me too. Ok, so let me also just tell you guys shortly about the latest things happening in my commencing song search for my cd. Within the last few weeks, I've talked to several songwriters, who'll work with me. Beth Patterson has given me some songs in somewhat the same style as the Norwegian song that I sang at Jonifest this year. I've also talked to an Swedish singer/songwriter, Theresa Anderson, who will pass some songs on to me. For those of you who don't know her, she used to be married to and play with Anders Osborne for nine years and she's written some beautiful songs. A third songwriter, I'll be working with, is Will Robinson, who's written for Reba McEntire! I feel deeply flattered that he'll work with me (am actually in a state of disbelief about it)! I generally want to try on lots of different styles, and I'll probably fall through once in a while. But that's the great thing about coming from another country - people (except for Paz!) don't expect anything from me, and I can do lots of things and get away with it! Goodnight for now... Christina ------------------------------ End of onlyJMDL Digest V2002 #353 ********************************* ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she? (http://www.siquomb.com/siquomb.cfm)