From: les@jmdl.com (onlyJMDL Digest) To: onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Subject: onlyJMDL Digest V2002 #350 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/onlyjoni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com Unsubscribe: mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe onlyJMDL Digest Wednesday, November 20 2002 Volume 2002 : Number 350 Sign up now for JoniFest 2003! http://www.jonifest.com ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: Travelogue WOW ["kakki" ] Today in History: November 20 [ljirvin@jmdl.com] Re: Travelogue WOW [CoyoteRick@aol.com] Travelogue [David Marine ] Re: Me [Eric W Taylor ] the bravo special [cul heath ] Re: JMDL Digest V2002 #503 [BRYAN8847@aol.com] Re: JMDL Digest V2002 #503 [BRYAN8847@aol.com] Re: Travelogue's "Sire of Sorrow" ["mike pritchard" ] another Mitchell show [cul heath ] Re: Travelogue WOW [Deb Messling ] Joni photo [Deb Messling ] Bufflao News Review [Jerry Notaro ] Re: JM Painting - Osama and Nude Blond Girlo [Jerry Notaro ] Re: Pazfest [Michael Paz ] Re: Travelogue's "Sire of Sorrow" ["Cynthia Vickery" ] Re: Joni NOT Quitting [Michael Paz ] T'log [Steve Polifka ] Re: Travelogue's "Sire of Sorrow" ["J.David Sapp" ] Travelogue - a UK view [Gertus@aol.com] Is Joni a poet? [Relayer211@aol.com] Re: Is Joni a poet? ["Sybil Skelton" ] Re: Is Joni a poet? [David Sadowski ] Re: Is Joni a poet? [Little Bird ] Re: Is Joni a poet? ["RSM" ] Joni & Grammys [Harry83house@aol.com] Re: Is Joni a poet? [Susan Guzzi ] Re: Is Joni a poet? [David Marine ] travelogue [Andrew Jones ] Re: Is Joni a poet? ["hell" ] re: Repaving Paradise, NY Daily News Review: full text ["c Karma" ] Re: JMDL Digest V2002 #504 [Kardinel@aol.com] T'log [BRYAN8847@aol.com] Re: onlyJMDL Digest V2002 #349 [StDoherty@aol.com] vinyl DED ["joseph tischner" ] Re: Travelogue's "Sire of Sorrow" [=?iso-8859-1?q?Jamie=20Zubairi?= ] Travelogue CD-ROM ["kerry" ] slouching toward bethlehem ["patrick leader" ] Re: Travelogue WOW ["kakki" ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 23:18:28 -0800 From: "kakki" Subject: Re: Travelogue WOW Jimmy wrote: > I'm hoping that someone ah hum (KAKKI), can identify one of the portraits on the cd. I'm > pretty sure the girl is Kilauren, but who is the man with her? Donald Freed? > I know it's not the guy she was with in Toronto. It's not Donald, but I do think it is one of her boyfriends - ex or present. I couldn't stand it anymore and went over to Tower to night to get a copy in advance of waiting for the one from Amazon! I ripped open the package right there in the store and was/am just blown away beyond words. It was like looking at a favorite little magic book from childhood. I think this is one of the greatest creations she has ever achieved. Huge. I see at least three Grammy nominations. Unbelievable. Thinking back on my little chat with her a year ago September I am even more awed and chilled. There she was talking about these paintings she had done starting 9/11 from photos she had taken with a disposable camera off the TV. I had no concept that those paintings could have been this awesome. How she could have executed these in just a few days. I guess each will interpret her 9/11 paintings in their own way, but my overwhelming feeling is that they are a dear gift of love to America - a brave gift of recognition and empathy. She did talk that day of people who sometimes wave the flag emptily - she also exclaimed resolutely "I may be a Canadian but I am an American, too, you know!!" I loved seeing her Jacarandas in Bel Air painting which I've bootlegged and sent to some of you. And was surprised to see the counterpart to her painting in the deer park in Japan - now this time the other painting that day of Wayne Shorter's wife Ana who was lost in the TWA 800 tragedy. The most gorgeous painting of all I thought was of her grandson Marlin. It was also great to see the two children playing in the pond/waterfall. She said in one interview that the scene was a picnic she had up in B.C. and that they are the children of her manager. I'm also curious about the two egg th eme that runs throughout several of the paintings. Maybe a good interview question for her next time, Rolling Stone. Also, the Indian man and woman. I'm sure we will hear the answers eventually. What an astounding work in every way. It is overwhelming. Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 03:08:03 -0500 From: ljirvin@jmdl.com Subject: Today in History: November 20 1966: Chuck and Joni perform at the Second Fret in Philadelphia. 1975: Joni performed with the Rolling Thunder Revue at the Harvard Square Theater in Cambridge, Mass., singing 'Edith and The Kingpin' and 'Don't Interrupt The Sorrow'. 1976: Joni, with John Sebastian, Country Joe McDonald and Fred Neil, took part in "California Celebrates The Whales Day" at the Memorial Auditorium in Sacramento, California. - ---- For a comprehensive reference to Joni's appearances, consult Joni Mitchell ~ A Chronology of Appearances: http://www.jonimitchell.com/appearances.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 03:17:04 EST From: CoyoteRick@aol.com Subject: Re: Travelogue WOW WOW is right!! Right now at Casa Alegre sits 35 copies of Travelouge -- and I can't get to them as I am imprisoned here in the San Diego cul-de-sac city until Thursday evening!! Brad called me tonight and asked if he could just open one of them. Argh..but of course, I agreed. He called back saying, "Rick, you have to hear this!!" I am not a happy camper at the Hilton. The other copies are being given to each one of my staff members at our Casa Alegere Holiday Party on December 6. Fresh meat. No regrets (just patience) Coyote Rick Casa Alegre Hollywood California ...only fools are afraid to be burned by fire... ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 00:29:06 -0800 From: David Marine Subject: Travelogue Hi List -- It's late and I'm tired and have so much to say about Travelogue...but will just make a few observations. I've been listening to it for about a month, and the songs are just beginning to unfold for me. While I was immediately drawn to a few tracks like "The Dawntreader" and "Be Cool", I had reservations about some of the material, especially on the first disc. Also, while I thought that the Hejira songs were nice, they seemed to me to lack the spark of the original recordings. Well, they do...but they posses a richness and scope and pathos that I am only beginning to appreciate. Refuge of The Roads...transcendent!!!!!!! The artwork, which is gorgeous, has really opened my eyes to the intensely personal nature of the whole presentation (I hesitate to call it a CD because I do believe that the artwork is an integral part of the whole). She is really offering an overview not just of her work, but of her life. The dedication to her parents, the thoughtful political content, the spectacularly ambitious and beautiful music and the exceptional paintings are all of a piece, and for me, they speak not only to her unparalleled artistry, but also to her deeply loving and expansive heart. Thank you, Joni. Best, David p.s. Bob, the "asian gentleman" in the painting is Chogyam Trungpa, the "man of spirit" from Refuge of the Roads. He was an influential Tibetan Buddhist teacher and artist, and founder of the Naropa Institute. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 03:32:47 -0500 From: Eric W Taylor Subject: Re: Me Little Bird wrote: << I should introduce myself. My name is Andrew Ritchie and I hail from Ottawa, Canada. Just joined.... I've been a fan of Joni's since 1991's Night Ride Home. I'm 25 years old but have collected each and every Joni Mitchell album since I was first charmed in the early part of the last decade by Joni's music. It's Joni's way with lyrical composition and speech rhythm that most attract me to her work. I think she is vastly underestimated as a vocalist, despite her vocal troubles of late. I'm the only one in my peer group who seems to fully "get" Joni's work, which is a bit sad and sometimes lonely. No one really understands what I understand about her work or sees what I see, regarding its wisdom, it's beauty and its truth. But now I'm here and have a multitude of people (in Exxon blue?) to share my thoughts and news with. Looking forward to more discussion with the release of Travelogue! Cheers everyone >> ME THREE!!! I fell in love with Joni in 1974 when I first heard Blue in high school. She has remained the only artist who still utterly captivates me some 30 years later. Today I purchased Travelogue. Never have I anticipated an album's release more. & never before have I been so moved by a first listen!......! Last weekend I installed 12 gauge Monster Cable just to fully enhance my first hearing of Travelogue. Otis & Marlena has long been in my top ten. HOW APPROPRIATE! Amelia has always been in my top five. Both left me speechless. But You Dream Flat Tires BLEW ME AWAY!!! I started balling (crying U pervs!) when I first heard Love. Slouching Toward Bethlehem (my personal all-time fave Joni tune) exceeded every expectation, turning me into a pile of total mush! Sire of Sorrow, Judgment of the Moon & Stars, the Roses........ I am truly breathless! ;~* Part 2 2 be or not to be? May I just add that anyone who thinks that Joni has LOST HER VOICE is a cunt whore~~~~~~~ Sorry Madonna? Oops, `ET NP: Travelogue` (Very possibly Joni's finest work 2 date) ? ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 00:35:11 -0800 From: cul heath Subject: the bravo special Waaah! As mentioned by others the special on Joni listed on bravo.ca until today("Both Sides Now and Then") was substituted for the '98 CBC special "Painting With Words". I raced through pouring rain from traffic blocked bridge to blocked bridge to get home to tape it for us all and even in a last ditch attempt ended up dropping off Adrian (my roomie) to take the skytrain home so he'd be there in time to tape it...which he did. I wrote bravo the following email to find out what happened; - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Hi, As an ardent admirer of Ms Mitchell, I am both miffed and curious why the program listed on Monday Nov 18 for Joni Mitchell was listed like this: "Joni Mitchell: Both Sides Now And Then November 19 @ 9pm ET / 6pm PT In this exclusive documentary, the renowned Canadian singer-songwriter tells her story; in-depth interviews are interwoven with her words and music. The film explores the impact of lonely Prairie winters and childhood illness, an unplanned pregnancy, and a disastrous early marriage on Mitchell's evolution as a writer, vocalist and musician. Both Sides Now And Then features commentary from the prominent artists who know her personally, such as Neil Young and Bob Dylan, as well as the contemporary musicians she has influenced, like Prince, Tori Amos and Sarah McLachlan." But what actually aired at that time slot on Tues Nov 19 was not that program at all but rather a different Mitchell show I had seen on CBC back in 1998. The listing on Tues had been changed to reflect the program which actually aired and read thus: "Joni Mitchell: Painting With Words And Music November 19 @ 9pm ET / 6pm PT The renowned Canadian singer-songwriter performs for an intimate audience in Los Angeles. Not only does she share her musical art, but her visual art as well - Mitchell designed the luxurious set herself and decorated it with her own paintings, creating a coffeehouse-like atmosphere. Against this distinctive backdrop, Mitchell plays material spanning her entire career; celebrity friends such as Rosanna Arquette, k.d. lang and Graham Nash gather to hear favourites like "Big Yellow Taxi," "Woodstock," "Hejira" and "Trouble Man." A very special performance from a legendary talent. " And worse ...under the listings section the title for the"Painting With Words" show is given the content details of the "Both Sides Now and Then" show. Hello? What the heck is going on? I could have been killed speeding home thru the rain to see this new show...grrrrrrr...and now I am going to have sacrifice two more cute little kittens on the Joni altar tonight...see what you people make me do? :) cul heath vancouver - ---------------------------------------- Sorry about that jmdl-ers. I will let you know about if they plan to air the Both Sides Now and Then in the near future. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 03:37:04 EST From: BRYAN8847@aol.com Subject: Re: JMDL Digest V2002 #503 And the packaging is simply divine Shure beetz the hattbockz ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 03:39:47 EST From: BRYAN8847@aol.com Subject: Re: JMDL Digest V2002 #503 "all the bosses in that industry have been so nice since I knocked it, everything's been smoothed over maybe that's all she wanted, Joni is kind of child-like in how she she gets hurt and then makes up... Bryan ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 09:53:18 +0100 From: "mike pritchard" Subject: Re: Travelogue's "Sire of Sorrow" >>And man, that painting of Kilauren and ? is so good it looks like a photograph! Don't you have this the wrong way around, Bob? The point, IMHO, is that a really great photo should approach the beauty of a painting. This is preferable to having someone trying to paint something which could pass for a photograph. Or am I talking through my asp? I know the hyperrealist school tries this and it's sometimes interesting. Unfortunately, we are so used to photographs that we (some of us) tend to see them (in both 'senses') as the real reality, rather than just one image of it, among many other possibilities. It's like the guy who films himself having sex and then can't wait to get home and watch the video. mike (who knows irony when he smells it, sorry Bob) in bcn NP - Pat Metheny - Electric Counterpoint ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 02:33:38 -0800 From: cul heath Subject: another Mitchell show Here's another show featuring Mitchell...this one one CMT to air sometime next April: TNT Plans Joni Mitchell Tribute Wed, Mar 22, 2000 06:07 AM PDT [TABLE NOT SHOWN] LOS ANGELES (Zap2it.com) - TNT cable net is planning to film a tribute concert to Joni Mitchell at the Hammerstein Ballroom. According to Variety, the concert will not only feature Mitchell--Shawn Colvin, Elton John, Wynonna Judd, Chaka Khan, Diana Krall, k.d. lang, Richard Thompson and Cassandra Wilson are scheduled to perform as well. Launched in 1998 with "Burt Bacharach: One Amazing Night," the TNT Masters Series showcases artists whose work have helped shape pop culture. Most recently, thee cable net featured "One Love: The Bob Marley All-Star Tribute." Ashley Judd will host the Mitchell tribute, which is set to air in April. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 07:16:23 -0500 From: Deb Messling Subject: Re: Travelogue WOW I'm guessing the Indian-looking man is Chogyam Trungpa?? And my take on the naked lady-Osama picture was different from what Joni described herself, so go figure! My first impression was that Joni was depicting fundamentalism and sexual exploitation as opposite faces of the same degradation. And the phrase "made redundant" -- in British English, that means "laid off," am I right? Like most of you, I am awestruck by this packaging. What a wonderful job. I do have a question. Are there "liner notes" per se? The Post review talked of liner notes that asked people to consider these songs slowly - I can't find any such notes. Musically - GORGEOUS. I love these arrangements. I've only heard it once through, and not all songs with proper attention yet (it's a busy week). The standouts for me are Flat Tires, Dawntreader, spooky Slouching Toward Bethlehem, Sire of Sorrow. I don't find the arrangements ponderous or overblown at all. I think Joni's doing the very best she can with her voice, although the technical limitations are more apparent than ever in some songs - maybe because I'm compelled to remember her early vocal strength and flexibility as I'm listening to these new versions of her songs. At 11:18 PM 11/19/02 -0800, you wrote: > Also, the Indian man and woman. - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Deb Messling -^..^- messling@enter.net - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- - --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.419 / Virus Database: 235 - Release Date: 11/13/02 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 07:47:24 -0500 From: Deb Messling Subject: Joni photo Small photo of Joni at SOCAN awards available at the following site. Scroll to the bottom: http://www.newswire.ca/releases/November2002/18/c2877.html - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Deb Messling -^..^- messling@enter.net - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- - --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.419 / Virus Database: 235 - Release Date: 11/13/02 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 08:26:43 -0500 From: Jerry Notaro Subject: Bufflao News Review My aunt from my hometown never fails to send me clippings of Joni. I sang two Joni songs at her wedding! No time to type the entire thing, but I will give you some of it, then send it all to Les: Headline: First Lady Joni Mitchell, goddess among songwriters, once again leads the way Subheading: To experience Joni Mitchell's gorgeous voice - so much like the languid, liquid trumpet phrasings of midperiod Mile Davis - wrapping itself around her early anthem Woodstock is to realize how far we have fallen. This is so strong, so musical, so profound, that it reveals in relief the shallowness of what now passes for pop music. Jerry ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 09:12:38 -0500 From: Jerry Notaro Subject: Re: JM Painting - Osama and Nude Blond Girlo Bobsart48@aol.com wrote: > > > These bloodless brides of Jesus > If they had just once glimpsed their groom > Then they'd know and they'd drop the stones > Concealed behind their rosaries If she had only written just this one verse in her entire career I would have still been in awe of her talent. Jerry NP: Jim McMurtry - something playing on WMNF ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 06:16:46 -0800 (PST) From: Mags N Brei Subject: RE: the Canadian mentality honorary canadian patrick leader wrote: <<>> gush gush gush all this talk about Canada now has lifted my spirits so much!!! As far as the complex is concerned yes we do have a lot of fun with that aspect of our canadianesse. we just like to make fun of ourselves to cover it all up anyway. the reality is, we just want you to THINK that we think we are inferior. (yikes, send in the grammar police !) <<>> Roberto is a sweetheart, a true mensch in every sense of the word. I was having Oh Canada withdrawal at Fest and he gave me the shirt right off his back ! <<> right on patrick re: working that insecurity trait. (which we do have but dont like to admit to it in a serious manner, thus the hiding behind humour). absolutely. and you know, it's hard to pinpoint what it is that is different about canada and being canadian...and then there's my newfound twist of being a canadian in the US of eh. alas, the difference is there. i get such a kick out of all the impressions Ive heard down here about Canada and what it is to be Canadian from another perspective.Ive given up saying Im from a specific city.. and just go along, now claiming the entire country "Canada" as my home. I will be presenting my "how to use a cheese slicer in ten easy lessons" seminar coupled with teaching the metric system this weekend. one more thing i need to mention from Andrew's post: ><nation that looks in the mirror and asks other nations, "Do we >look fat in this?">>> prime example right there. Bravo Andrew oh kindred kanadian spirit. Mags, quite enjoying her captivity ;-PP You open my heart, you do. Yes you do. - JM Yahoo! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your site ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 08:41:57 -0800 From: Michael Paz Subject: Re: Pazfest David I am so happy you got it and are enjoying it. You must have T'Log by now. I picked mine up yesterday at Tower with Christina and Jack. The artwork is so beautiful and the whole package is just stunning. All I can say is that she has done it again and as far as I am concerned her latest golden eggs are diamonds to me. Paz on 11/16/02 2:11 PM, J.David Sapp at davidsapp@peoplepc.com wrote: > I'm running behind the time but I finally got the Pazfest discs. What a treat > - thanks to Michael and all. This is a MUST HAVE. > T'log is almost here - I haven't heard a bit yet. Cannot wait. > peace, david ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 08:35:36 -0600 From: "Cynthia Vickery" Subject: Re: Travelogue's "Sire of Sorrow" Bob inquired: <> ohhhh yeah. caught that one as soon as i turned the page. as she says: <> brilliant. and for the first time, her paintings are glittering for me. cindy ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 08:53:54 -0800 From: Michael Paz Subject: Re: Me Hi Andrew and welcome! One thing is for sure is that we all understand you here and appreciate your comments. Best Paz in New Orleans on 11/18/02 8:14 PM, Little Bird at littlebird3333@yahoo.com wrote: > Hi all - > > I should introduce myself. My name is Andrew Ritchie > and I hail from Ottawa, Canada. Just joined. > > I've done a bit of transcribing for Jim Johanson and > JoniMitchell.com, and I'm known as his "Canadian > Connection" since I always seem to be the first one > from north of the border to inform him of the goings > on with Joni's Canadian cognoscenti. > > I've been a fan of Joni's since 1991's Night Ride > Home. I'm 25 years old but have collected each and > every Joni Mitchell album since I was first charmed in > the early part of the last decade by Joni's music. > > It's Joni's way with lyrical composition and speech > rhythm that most attract me to her work. I think she > is vastly underestimated as a vocalist, despite her > vocal troubles of late. I'm the only one in my peer > group who seems to fully "get" Joni's work, which is a > bit sad and sometimes lonely. No one really > understands what I understand about her work or sees > what I see, regarding its wisdom, it's beauty and its > truth. But now I'm here and have a multitude of people > (in Exxon blue?) to share my thoughts and news with. > > Looking forward to more discussion with the release of > Travelogue! > > Cheers everyone - > > Andrew > > Favourite album: DJRD > Favourite song: Hejira > Yahoo! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your site > http://webhosting.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 09:00:58 -0800 From: Michael Paz Subject: Re: Joni NOT Quitting Yeah you right!!!!! Paz on 11/19/02 7:38 AM, James Leahy at jamesl@ca.inter.net wrote: > Today's Toronto Star story on Joni's SOCAN award reveals she is not > planning to quit the music biz after all: > > http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article > _Type1&c=Article&cid=1035774582299&call_pageid=968867495754&col=969483191630 > > Jim ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 09:33:17 -0600 From: Steve Polifka Subject: T'log So, I finally got to hear T'log... very mixed reactions on the first listen. Sometimes I felt it was a Big Band/Jazz rehash of her songs, but as the arrangement's progressed, the feel was more comfortable. Tears ran during Amelia. Just Like This Train was like visiting an old friend. The Hejira pieces were very nice. I was surprised at Flat Tires- I actually liked it! The song that hung with me after the first run was the Dawntreader- haunting, darkly beautiful and evocative... It's going to take many more listenings to fully appreciate this chapter in the life of one Ms. Joni Mitchell... Steve Steve ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 11:10:13 -0600 From: "J.David Sapp" Subject: Re: Travelogue's "Sire of Sorrow" Bob said -Who is the asian gentleman in the one painting? His name is Chogyam Trungpa, a Tibetan lama and the inspiration for Refuge. She tells the story in the 4/92 Interview mag. interview and mentions him before singing Borderline in some live performances. Do you have any of those? :~) peace, david ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 11:35:28 -0600 From: Subject: talking to americans > From: Little Bird > Subject: Canada: work it baby! > I know what you mean about Canadians "working" the inferioity complex and > making it funny. Inferiority complex? If we do have one, it shouldn't last long after seeing even one of Rick Mercer's "Talking to Americans" specials -- there's one this Friday at 8. I've marked it on my calendar because it is such a bellylaugh. As I sit there cackling and shrieking over the wool he pulls over his American interviewees' eyes, I always wonder if Americans would find the show half as funny as we do. >I met one American who thought we didn't have > black people in our country and another who didn't know where Canada was on a > map... > I feel my national inferiority flaring up again... See, you *especially* need to watch Talking to Americans this weekend. That'll fix you right up. Kate du Nord ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 13:57:06 EST From: Gertus@aol.com Subject: Travelogue - a UK view There's a decent review of Travelogue in today's Daily Telegraph by Rupert Christiansen, who admits to having been listening passionately to Joni for over 30 years and to being sad that this may well be her last album. I especially like the final paragraphs:- "Joni's influence has been profound. I'm not thinking just of her obvious impact on pop-song writers such as Elvis Costello, Beth Orton or P J Harvey, but on the wider musical world too. The best of our young composers, Mark Anthony Turnage, has explored Joni's post-Mingus oeuvre and appreciates its virtues far more than I do; and America's two greatest divas, Renee Fleming and Lorraine Hunt Lieberson, have both told me that she was the inspiration of their youth. As I sit in the recital hall and opera house, I often find myself wishing that more aspiring classical singers could come out of their boxes and learn from the freedom, colour and expressivity of Joni Mitchell's artistry." This guy knows a thing or two! Jacky ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 14:13:32 -0500 From: Relayer211@aol.com Subject: Is Joni a poet? I know Joni would consider herself a poet,but objectivly could she be called a poet?What exactly is the difference betweena poetry and song lyrics,anyway? thanks, "clueless in connecticut" ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 13:20:42 -0600 From: "Sybil Skelton" Subject: Re: Is Joni a poet? > I know Joni would consider herself a poet,but objectivly could she >be >called a poet?What exactly is the difference betweena poetry and >song >lyrics,anyway? > > thanks, > "clueless in connecticut" Dear Clueless, According to my 10th grade English teacher, there is no difference. In an effort to interest bored 15 year olds in poetry, our teacher brought in song lyrics for us to study as poetry - Bob Dylan, Paul Simon, Phil Ochs are some I remember. And we went straight from that to T.S. Eliot. Her approach worked. Sybil _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 13:22:27 -0600 From: David Sadowski Subject: Re: Is Joni a poet? The only real difference I see is one of function. The two can overlap (some things can be both song lyrics and poetry), some work better as one or the other. Song lyrics just have to play to your ear and your mind's eye, and can even be buried underneath the rest of the music... poetry has to play to your eye and your mind's ear, and the cheese stands alone. No music to hide it under... Some song lyrics are great lyrics but lousy poetry, and vice versa... the main guy in Lambchop (Kurt Wagner) is notorious for writing song lyrics that look really terrible on the printed page. Relayer211@aol.com wrote: > I know Joni would consider herself a poet,but objectivly could she be called a poet?What exactly is the difference betweena poetry and song lyrics,anyway? > > thanks, > "clueless in connecticut" ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 11:33:18 -0800 (PST) From: Little Bird Subject: Re: Is Joni a poet? I think she could be called a poet. If you have read the book containing all of Joni's lyrics, called "The Complete Poems and Lyrics," you can see that many of her songs work marvelously as written pieces. Take "Paprika Plains" for instance. The entire middle section of the song, which doesn't appear on the album as sung lyrics, is incredible. I think, as a rule, you can say that most of her songs are poetic, but not necessarily poems, in and of themselves. Not all of them work as poems, however. Generally, there is no difference between lyrics and poems, except that lyrics are traditionally sung and poems are either read silently or spoken. Would the words of a poem become lyrics if they are sung? I'm not sure. There was an album tribute to Shakespeare recently with songs by Rufus Wainright that changed Sonnet 39 into a song. Do lyrics become poems when they are written on a page? Again, I don't really know. "The Complete Poems and Lyrics" seems to indicate that they can. You'd probably have to consult a book of poetry rules for the answer, and there are many rules to the various different kinds of poetry, from iambic pentameter to odes, villanelles to limericks, haiku, sonnets and rhyming couplets. - -Andrew Relayer211@aol.com wrote:I know Joni would consider herself a poet,but objectivly could she be called a poet?What exactly is the difference betweena poetry and song lyrics,anyway? thanks, "clueless in connecticut" Yahoo! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your site ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 12:04:47 -0800 From: "RSM" Subject: Re: Is Joni a poet? Q: Would the words of a poem become lyrics if they are sung? A: Joni has done it in Slouching Toward Bethlehem using words taken from W.B. Yeats poem The Second Coming. For the poem see: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/5379/TheSecondComing.html Ron in LA ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 15:11:07 EST From: Harry83house@aol.com Subject: Joni & Grammys I just got in from doing some shows in North Dakota where we travelled from Minot to Bismarck and on to Fargo. Looking all across the U.S. Northern Plains I thought of Joni growing up nearby among all that space and sky. Awesome views up there. It really moved me at times. Anyway, I got home and went straight to the music shop and got TRAVELOGUE. It is a masterpiece. Plain and simple...a masterpiece. If those folks down at the Grammy Board don't nominate this for Album of the Year, then they are truly idiots. And I don't mean a sub-category like Pop Album or Jazz Album or Best Traditional Pop... I mean the BIG one. (She's a shoo-in for Packaging Grammy, too.) I avoided down-loading from the Nonesuch site, but WNYC-FM played some tracks 2 weeks ago on Jonathan Schwartz' great radio show and he just gushed about T'LOG. I hope she has at least a decent chart debut on BILLBOARD, too. OH, I really am loving this album. Just wanted to share with folks who are as excited as me. Bye! Harry NP: CHINESE CAFE (Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 12:12:00 -0800 (PST) From: Susan Guzzi Subject: Re: Is Joni a poet? Relayer wrote: What exactly is the difference between a poetry and >song > >lyrics,anyway? > > Sybil Responded: > According to my 10th grade English teacher, there is no difference. In an > effort to interest bored 15 year olds in poetry, our teacher brought in song > lyrics for us to study as poetry - Bob Dylan, Paul Simon, Phil Ochs are some > I remember. And we went straight from that to T.S. Eliot. Her approach > worked. Just a big nod of agreement here Sybil. I too, used song lyrics in high school for poetry class, but it was MY idea and the one way to bring Joni to school with me! Sister Mary Anita was soooo easy to get off the track. She kinda dug Joni too! (Chelsea Morning & Electricity) I don't think IMHO that there is a difference between lyrics and poetry. I also recall Yoko Ono's version of the Rossetti poem, "Who Has Seen The Wind" showing a poem can become a song lyric, just as we have seen Joni's lyrics lay themselves out as poetry. Please refrain from any Yoko bashing! LOL! Certainly, some poems are not as song friendly or as purposeful as lyrical writing and vice versa. However, they are both word art. And festers may recall that Hell wrote one of those 2 forms, call it whichever you like, to which Marian added music. Which came first the lyric or the poem? That's meant to be rhetorical. And in closing Joni is most definitely a poet. Peace, Susan > > _________________________________________________________________ > MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*. > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus Yahoo! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your site http://webhosting.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 12:20:09 -0800 From: David Marine Subject: Re: Is Joni a poet? Dear Clueless in Connecticut -- Of course she is! Compare her lyrics to the compositions performed at a poetry "slam" if you have any doubts. Joni is one of the best poets of her generation, although her style is not restricted by contemporary literary dogma. Poetry was thriving long before the written word, and was usually chanted, or sung. The root of the word "poet" is Indo-European, and means "creator." Best, David on 11/20/02 11:13 AM, Relayer211@aol.com at Relayer211@aol.com wrote: > I know Joni would consider herself a poet,but objectivly could she be called a > poet?What exactly is the difference betweena poetry and song lyrics,anyway? > > thanks, > "clueless in connecticut" ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 20:38:28 +0000 From: Andrew Jones Subject: travelogue Anybody know if the new album Travelogue will follow Both sides now and be released on DVD audio? Andrew Jones ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 09:47:24 +1300 From: "hell" Subject: Re: Is Joni a poet? Susan wrote: > Just a big nod of agreement here Sybil. I too, used song lyrics in high school for poetry class, > but it was MY idea and the one way to bring Joni to school with me! Sister Mary Anita was soooo > easy to get off the track. She kinda dug Joni too! (Chelsea Morning & Electricity) Just as well it was a few years ago, and that Turbulent Indigo hadn't been released! I don't think she would have reacted quite so well to "The Magdalene Laundries"?! I agree that lyrics can definitely be poetry - I don't think you could class the lyrics of Hejira as anything else! Jim Morrison is another (not mentioned very often here - I've always wondered why?) who could be classed as more of a poet than a lyricist. Certainly "An American Prayer" is far more about the poetry than the music. Hell ___________________________________ "To have great poets, there must be great audiences too." - Walt Whitman Hell's Home Page - NEW & IMPROVED! http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~hell/index.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 21:28:55 +0000 From: "c Karma" Subject: re: Repaving Paradise, NY Daily News Review: full text The reviewer wrote, "...Mitchell sounds as if she were looking back at her earthly experiences from the afterlife, delighting in the perceptions and errors of her past, with a serene wisdom." The Lovely Tiger Bones? CC "There is the hope and the hopelessness I've witnessed all these years." -- JM _________________________________________________________________ Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 13:41:27 -0800 (PST) From: Susan Guzzi Subject: Re: Is Joni a poet? Hi Hell! Susan wrote that hell wrote that Susan wrote: Sister Mary Anita was soooo easy to get off the track. She kinda dug Joni too! (Chelsea Morning & Electricity) Hell said: Just as well it was a few years ago, and that Turbulent Indigo hadn't been released! I don't think she would have reacted quite so well to "The Magdalene Laundries"?! LOL Hell, surely it would have been scandalous! But she may have been the sort to try and understand, not sure she is still a sister. But she was pretty politically involved. Remember I went to a very liberal school - despite it's being Catholic. I agree that lyrics can definitely be poetry - I don't think you could class the lyrics of Hejira as anything else! Jim Morrison is another (not mentioned very often here - I've always wondered why?) who could be classed as more of a poet than a lyricist. Certainly "An American Prayer" is far more about the poetry than the music. Hejira, along with several others, HOSL, Blue, screw it all of them in my opinion! And I agree, Morrison AND Patti Smith - rarely mentioned but two who can stand alone as poets, right along with our Joni. Not to mention loving them both musically! Peace, Susan Yahoo! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your site http://webhosting.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 17:12:03 EST From: Kardinel@aol.com Subject: Re: JMDL Digest V2002 #504 Hi Andrew, It's nice to see someone your age appreciate Joni's work. My son is 19 and he grew up on it and though he likes it a lot he listens to hip hop (alternative). I've listen to Joni since 68 and would love to hear your impressions of Travelogue. I listened to it today. I love some of the songs . I think the second disk is the strongest. I am going to listen to it tonight again. I am thrilled "The dawntreader" is on the recording.It was my favorite song for a long time and it's wonderful to hear the new recording though it makes me a bit melancholy about the passing of time and getting older. I am, by the way, from Maine. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 17:41:58 -0500 From: BRYAN8847@aol.com Subject: T'log Like so many of you I rushed out Tuesday and bought T'log with great aniticipation. I paid full price (something I don't often do)! I listened, and reacted to Amelia by crying (something else I don't often do)! The emotional depth of this performance is immense. When I listen, particularly to Amelia or Dawntreader, my defenses and mind-babble are stripped away. Pretty remarkable. Overall, I'm quite impressed with this recording. Probably one of her finest, though I'm sure it will take months or years for the impact to be fully appreciated. Definitely a couple of notches above BSN, which I quite enjoy. But I'm having trouble with a song or two, mostly Ludwig's Tune. It's the vocal performance that bothers me, it's more like a hoarse recitation. Perhaps JM was simply not up to the task that day -- or is it supposed to be a non-sung song? Perhaps someone can offer clues. By the way, I am hearing-impaired and one of my stereo speakers is ka-put! So I am definitely a challenged listener. It's gorgeous nonetheless. Bryan Bryan ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 17:58:05 EST From: StDoherty@aol.com Subject: Re: onlyJMDL Digest V2002 #349 Here's what CD Now says about the new album Travelogue 2002 CD $31.48 November 19, 2002 On Joni Mitchell's 20th album, Travelogue, the high priestess of singer-songwriters raids her own back catalogue, revisiting songs that she believes have stood the test of time and her own stylistic transformations, using the London Symphony Orchestra to accompany her. This is not a nostalgia trip into the Wayback Machine, bringing back winsome souvenirs like "Big Yellow Taxi" and "Chelsea Morning." Instead, this collection shows Mitchell as the self-conscious and restless innovator, picking her way carefully through the minefields of human relationships, leaving a trail of eloquent breadcrumbs, as she describes the passing scenery with her evocative and off-kilter imagery. Back in 1974, Mitchell complained that she felt miscast singing some of the songs that she wrote as a younger woman, so almost 30 years later it's no surprise that she has abandoned many of her trademark songs for more sophisticated prescient fare. Included in the two-disc set are songs like her Dylanesque narrative "Otis and Marlena"; the still topical and prophetic "Amelia"; and her end-of-the-world tome, "Slouching Toward Bethlehem." The anthemic "Woodstock" has become a ponderous meditation on the meaning of life and purpose, as Mitchell, with the help of arranger Vince Mendoza (who worked with the chanteuse on her 2000 album of standards, Both Sides Now) changes both the emphasis and the pacing of the classic song that helped define a cultural revolution.Jaan Uhelszki CDNOW Contributing Writer ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 18:11:59 -0500 From: "joseph tischner" Subject: vinyl DED I'm envious of all of you who've already gotten a copy of Travelogue! But I'm waiting for Santa to visit with that one (and Diana Krall's live CD.) Can I hold out? I've got the 14 buzztone (or whatever it's called) recordings to placate me til then. But my son just got new turntables to play/scratch/mix his rap crap on and he invited me up to play a RECORD. I had to dig in the basement to find something, and as soon as I happened on DED, I knew it was the one. I haven't heard it in years. Don't own it on CD, but will soon! What a fantastic record! I love the electronic Joni! I turned 'Shiny Toys' way up and rocked the house. The quality of sound on this turntable is great. What fun! I love the syncopation of 'Lucky Girl' too. Don't hear too much of that in anyone's music! Anyway, I've now got (access to) a turntable to play my hundreds of LPs and 45s. I'm in heaven! Anyone wanna come over Friday night to play records, drink beer and smoke some refer? (only kidding, I was thinking of 1975... sorry.) np: pretenders 'message of love' _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 01:06:27 +0000 (GMT) From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Jamie=20Zubairi?= Subject: Re: Travelogue's "Sire of Sorrow" Damn! I wanted the asian in the painting to be me! Oh well.... maybe next time.... (big smile on my face, by the way) Much Joni Jamie Zoob "J.David Sapp" wrote:Bob said -Who is the asian gentleman in the one painting? His name is Chogyam Trungpa, a Tibetan lama and the inspiration for Refuge. She tells the story in the 4/92 Interview mag. interview and mentions him before singing Borderline in some live performances. Do you have any of those? :~) peace, david - --------------------------------- Get a bigger mailbox -- choose a size that fits your needs. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 20:11:41 EST From: KLCass21@aol.com Subject: T'log Hello - I am thrilled with every aspect of Travelogue. This is a first class package, from cover to cover. But, to me what really makes this project so artistically successful is Joni's voice. I love the occasional dry crack in her voice on certain lyrics. This recording is powerful and an emotional listen for me. Thank you Joni! Your artistry continues to amaze and inspire me. Kurt ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 20:39:24 -0500 From: "Bree Mcdonough" Subject: Coming up for H2o.. so immersed in T'log.....I have practically been listening non-stop..in the car..laptop.....stereo.. IT has exceeded my every expectation.....chills chills and more chills... Thank you Joni..thanks so much for the gift..... !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Bree.. Oh.. my very favorites so far: YDFT,STB,TSOS,CC,SK,TD.. The mens chorus on SIRE...WOW....the cadence is outstanding... _________________________________________________________________ Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 20:01:38 -0600 From: "kerry" Subject: Travelogue CD-ROM Jimmy wrote: >Oh the enhanced CD is GREAT. The first thing when I got home was to put disk >1 in the computer. "Refuge of the Roads" comes on and you get to see more >wonderful Joni painitings, all of the lyrics, credits, contacts (and yes they >have a link to JoniMitchell.com- alright Jim Johanson!!!!). I finally had the chance to look at this with Travelogue playing in the background. A wonderful sensory overload! In one section on the CD-ROM, there is a place to "Join Joni's e-mail list." Does anyone know what this is all about? Is she going to write to all of us? ;>) Kerry ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 21:08:27 -0500 From: "patrick leader" Subject: slouching toward bethlehem hey guys, kay and i are hanging together tonight and we've been looking through the travelogue book and listening to various songs. i think i can safely say that kay's as blown away by the artwork as me. she just noticed that in the first of the 9/11 paintings one can see the shape of a lion's face in the smoke from tower one. thought that was notable and worth reporting. kay also noticed, which i hadn't, that each of the paintings is mirrored at the bottom. we immediately switched disks and put on 'slouching'. i have a question. the dark woman in the blue painting with the white bracelet and the butterfly... who? patrick np - love, corinthians p.s. also got pazfest cd today and listened to most. susan cowsill (!). bryan (!) others [demime 0.97c removed an attachment of type application/ms-tnef which had a name of winmail.dat] ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 18:23:29 -0800 From: "kakki" Subject: Re: Travelogue WOW Deb wrote: > And my take on the naked lady-Osama picture was different from what Joni described > herself, so go figure! My first impression was that Joni was depicting fundamentalism and sexual exploitation as >opposite faces of the same degradation. Now that I have seen the actual painting I agree that there is a whole lot more going on in it. When she described it to me I envisioned more of a just-for-fun cartoon image. Couldn't have been more wrong - the painting is astounding on so many levels. > And the phrase "made redundant" -- in British English, that means "laid off," am I right? Still trying to figure it all out. Don't mean to tell tales out of school but since she did relate to the large audience at her tribute in Toronto (and also a big in the LA Times) the same things she related to me, maybe it is alright to pass this along. She and Donald were together on 9/11 clued to the TV set. Something or other happened and Donald ended up getting angry with her saying she was always "repeating herself." They broke up that day. So Joni was reeling from both events in that time period between 9/11 and the next few days creating those paintings. Maybe to work through it somehow with humor, she told herself she would create a new school of painting called "repetitism." You see that in the 9/11 paintings they are divided in half with the mirror image repeated upside down. "Repetitism" and also a metaphor for her world being "turned upside down." So the "made redundant" tatoo on the woman in the Bin Laden painting could have a lot of meanings - both broad and personal. In a sense, Joni, being found redundant by her love, was also "laid off" from her relationship that day. Always that duality thing....;-) Kakki ------------------------------ End of onlyJMDL Digest V2002 #350 ********************************* ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she? 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