From: les@jmdl.com (onlyJMDL Digest) To: onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Subject: onlyJMDL Digest V2002 #334 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/onlyjoni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com Unsubscribe: mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe onlyJMDL Digest Sunday, November 10 2002 Volume 2002 : Number 334 The Official Joni Mitchell Homepage, created by Wally Breese, can be found at http://www.jonimitchell.com. It contains the latest news, a detailed bio, Original Interviews, essays, lyrics and much much more. The JMDL website can be found at http://www.jmdl.com and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- No news on Ticketron.com ["Jim L'Hommedieu \(Lama\)" ] Re: Evian takes us down the memory trail [colin ] P. Gabriel interview on BBC2 Oct. 16th 2002 - Joni mention ["Australian ] Re: No news on Ticketron.com ["joe farrell" ] Travelogue comments from Owen [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] RE: Travelogue question (again) [Deb Messling ] [none] ["William Chavez" ] RE: ["Victor Johnson" ] Joni, "an original" [Jenny Goodspeed ] Re: Joni, "an original" [Murphycopy@aol.com] RE: Joni, "an original ["Victor Johnson" ] Travelogue release / Pearl Jam (sjc) ["Victor Johnson" ] Re: thank you fans! [Jerry Notaro ] Cowbells, Madonna, Influence ["Kate Bennett" ] Re: P. Gabriel interview on BBC2 Oct. 16th 2002 - Joni mention ["Music Is] Re: Joni, "an original" ["Mark or Travis" ] Re: Joni, "an original" [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: Joni, "an original" [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] RE: Joni, "an original [Jenny Goodspeed ] re: out original visual concept-sjc ["Bree Mcdonough" ] Re: Joni, "an original" [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] joni & sting ["Kate Bennett" ] Re: Travelogue question (again) [TerryM2222@aol.com] Re: Joni, "an original" [Murphycopy@aol.com] njm pc [Franklin Shea ] Re: njm pc ["kakki" ] Re: Joni, "an original" ["Bree Mcdonough" ] Re: Joni, "an original" [Jenny Goodspeed ] so sad ["walterphil" ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2002 03:34:24 -0500 From: "Jim L'Hommedieu \(Lama\)" Subject: No news on Ticketron.com www.ticketron.com which is the corporate monster that has a stranglehold on ticket brokering in the USA (not America, okay?) doesn't have any dates for "Joni Mitchell". Lama My old friend Joe Farrell asked, >>>I notice that on the Nonesuch website they say that Joni is considering doing some selected dates to support the release of Travelogue. Anyone out there know any more about this?>>> ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2002 09:10:04 +0000 From: colin Subject: Re: Evian takes us down the memory trail vince wrote: > Rob Procyk & Tracy Tolley wrote: > > > Ok, so Jimmy jogged the memory -- let's make a list to see who can > > remember what: > > 10.) Who remembers... lol, now I can't think of her name -- she was a > > big Ferron fan... jog my memory. > Sherrie Good? ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2002 18:02:15 +0800 From: "Australian Seashells" Subject: P. Gabriel interview on BBC2 Oct. 16th 2002 - Joni mention Just got back from a month's travelling by boat (no e-mail) and not sure whether this has already found it's way to the list or not - but I thought it's an interesting snippet of info in regard to the recent discussion on Joni's view of the music business. She's so right! Upon my return I found this tape sent to me from the U.K. with an interview that was broadcast on BBC 2 on October 16th 2002 with Richard Allinson interviewing Peter Gabriel about his new album 'UP', record labels and 'Thomas The Tank Engine', among other things. PG & Richard discuss the fact that the approach of record labels and media to rock music, in particular to the age of the musicians, hasn't changed in over 30 years ( i. e. the news-worthiness of The Stones or Paul McCartney being over 40, then over 50 (gasp!), etc..). Here's a transcript of the relevant bit: PG: >>>> "The mythology about 'Rock' is that it is this sort of testosterone filled late adolescence music. Which is certainly part of it's origin - but it's become another form of music, for better or for worse. You don't dump writers, film directors, painters when they hit 50, 60, whatever. If they've got something to say, let them say it. But record labels? Now I remember one conversation with a record label boss in America, talking about Joni Mitchell - and he said: " Well, she's a woman and she's over 50 - and that these were two reasons why they shouldn't spend money on her". Both very stupid in my mind, because there's a great artist there who's still doing great work.">>>> And also: >>>>" Some artists definitely do their best work while they're young but don't eliminate everyone due to age - but rather use your ears and intelligence">> _______________________________________ Peter still uses his ears apparently. Cheers, Simone ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2002 12:20:31 -0000 From: "joe farrell" Subject: Re: No news on Ticketron.com Thanks for the info Jim, though it isn't good news...yet. We live in hope. Regards, Joe. NP: Rachel Z Big Yellow Taxi. - ----- Original Message ----- From: Jim L'Hommedieu (Lama) To: Cc: Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2002 8:34 AM Subject: No news on Ticketron.com > www.ticketron.com which is the corporate monster that has a stranglehold on > ticket brokering in the USA (not America, okay?) doesn't have any dates for > "Joni Mitchell". > > > Lama > > > My old friend Joe Farrell asked, > >>>I notice that on the Nonesuch website they say that Joni is considering > doing some selected dates to support the release of Travelogue. Anyone out > there know any more about this?>>> ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2002 07:30:00 EST From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Travelogue comments from Owen Here's a message about T that was sent to me to forward...Apparently Owen can read mail but can't send from the Outlook Express he's using. Anyway, here's his message: >I've had great difficulty posting anything to JMDL recently (not the lists >fault, its my email), but I really hope this gets through. I just wanted to >say that I think 'Travelogue' deserves a lot of respect, even if it isn't >to your taste. So much effort has gone into this music, from Joni's >original creation of the songs to the way every memeber of the orchestra >plays and the way it is recorded and engineered. I know enough about >recording and creating to know that this is a massive, massive achievement. This is the sound of the highest of human endeavour. And it is a sad, sad thing to hear when nearly all else you see reminds you how rotten we've become. I know that many people won't really dig this music. A friend of mine who's a socialist can't stand any music with an orchestra near it because she associates it with elitism. Another couple of friends would hear echoes of the emotional manipulation present in the scores of mainstream Hollywood films. But for those who are simply dismissing it as a "re-hash", and bland, please at least respect the fact that possibly hundreds of people have given their absolute best in what you hear. Not for money, or for fame, but just for it to be heard. If it isn't to your taste, that's cool, but I don't think I can bear to hear something so special (whichever way you look at it) being panned, when the rest of humanity is busy chasing itself down the drain. "Freely I slave away for something better" O ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2002 07:38:25 -0500 From: Deb Messling Subject: RE: Travelogue question (again) I remember MINE - I sent an email intended for my nephew, Jon, to the Joni list. Fortunately it was just puzzlingly irrelevant rather than truly embarrassing. At 10:48 PM 11/9/02 -0600, you wrote: >1.) Who can think of at least 3 times when a private email accidently >got posted to the list (still saying Hail Marys here for that one, let >me tell ya!) - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Deb Messling -^..^- messling@enter.net - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- - --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.408 / Virus Database: 230 - Release Date: 10/24/02 ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2002 07:43:13 -0500 From: "William Chavez" Subject: [none] Kate I understand that you would have a more intricate take on this whole welfare and irresponsible parenting issue because of your line of work. I wonder if you, as someone who works with people in need of welfare, realize when certain individuals are using the system. Here in Miami(probably the fraud capital of the world), I can tell you that there are many wed and unwed mothers that claim their husband or boyfriend(the father of the children) has left them when they in fact are still very much together. Some of them really play it up by living separately for awhile but others continue to blatantly live together. How do we stop this? How do we stop the families that have been on welfare for generations to stop having children. I never suggested that we, as a nation or government, should force them to get sterilized, I proposed that they get it done out of their own free will and as consideration to those that are having to dish out a lot of money every year to help support them and their children. Some people have suggested "Why don't you report those people that are abusing welfare through their children?" Well I've always thought that the children would end up losing if this would happen. I also understand that now, more than ever, we are seeing a lot of previously stable families become unstable due to job loss. Let me add that there are a lot of people that would not be having such a difficult time with job losses if they did not overextend themselves while they had a job. A lot(not all) of Americans are very big on overextending themselves with expensive toys instead of saving their money for an emergency. Anyways, these are not the people that I was talking about because until recently (before they lost their jobs) they were part of the population that contributed to welfare by just being part of the work force. My aim is to those that plan to make a living off of living on welfare. Some families have been doing this for generations. I assume your cold and cruel comment was specifically towards castrating sex offenders and murderers(or maybe I'm not quite sure what that was in reference to since I think it was a general oneliner type of reply). Some may say that the death penalty is cold and cruel. Others would say that living in a small jail cell is cold and cruel(even though a lot of prisoners live with more comfort than people on welfare-I think that is really crazy). I think that the only thing people would be somewhat okay with is if someone were standing there with a shot gun ready to kill someone as they were committing the crime. We all know that this rarely happens and the sad fact is that after the crime there is always someone somewhere ready to defend these offender and making sure no one is ever cold and cruel to them. Most of these offenders are repeat offenders and thrive on the act of being cold and cruel while they sit there and watch there handy work. I, for one, think that from that point onward nobody should be anything but cold to them. Maybe not cruel but definitely cold. One last thing, castration as a surgical procedure is not a cruel act. Many men with severe prostate problems have to get this procedure done. This would not get performed ala Fidel Castro in a cuban camp(I know an older gentleman,ex-cuban political prisoner, who was castrated by beating in a cuban camp-THAT IS CRUEL!). This is a difficult thing for me to say when I take my spiritual beliefs into consideration but I would be lying if I told you I felt differently. As to this thread, I'm tired already. It is very difficult to get people to see a point clearly through a medium such as this one. That is pretty obvious when you read all the conflicting interpretations to the Joni Mitchell Rolling Stone interview. That went on for days. While some people wrote me stating that most people will misunderstand what you are trying to say so just let it go and don't even bother responding, I found many to be receptive to what I was saying once I explained the thought behind it. Others knew what I meant from the get go by not trying to assume information that was not given. Still, this was a most exhausting experience and before having anybody else insinuate that I'm anti-women, anti -gay or a Nazi, I will keep my comments strictly to music. For those of you who asked for clarification before deciding whether to jump on me or not...I thank you! Will _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2002 9:2:5 -0800 From: "Victor Johnson" Subject: RE: > As to this thread, I'm tired already. It is very difficult to get people to > see a point clearly through a medium such as this one. That is pretty > obvious when you read all the conflicting interpretations to the Joni > Mitchell Rolling Stone interview. hmmm....and I thought the whole point of a debate was to have CONFLICTING opinions. If everybody had the same exact opinion on things well, it would be pretty boring, wouldn't it. It is the nature of words to have conflicting interpretations. >That went on for days. Hence, the term thread. > Others knew what I meant from the get go by not trying to assume information > that was not given. Still, this was a most exhausting experience and before > having anybody else insinuate that I'm anti-women, anti -gay or a Nazi, I > will keep my comments strictly to music. That's a cop out. Victor - --- Victor Johnson - --- waytoblu@mindspring.com Visit http://www.cdbaby.com/victorjohnson Look for the new album "Parsonage Lane" in March 2003 Produced by Chris Rosser at Hollow Reed Studios ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2002 06:35:02 -0800 (PST) From: Jenny Goodspeed Subject: Joni, "an original" Okay, since I've been taking part in a political discussion, SOME people find less than titillating - I have been moved to bring up a subject I've been mulling over for a few weeks now... I am sometimes rankled by Joni's references (not undeserved) to herself as an original and her criticism of the lack of originality in the music industry today. She has influenced countless musicians across many genres - but sometimes I feel she is critical of artists who create music in which her influence is obvious - sometimes I think she credits her influence on an artist more than I would (Sting for e.g.). So - this all has me thinking - when is an artist ground breaking - when an artist truly comes up with something new or combines influences in a way that has never been done before? Specifically - when do you think Joni broke some ground? And what was her contribution - lyrical...musical. For pop/rock music history buffs - or heck for people who were actually cognizant at the time - how do you see Joni in the context of popular music? How about in music in general? Did she truly become an original right of the bat with STAS - or was that more a logical, albeit creative outflow of what was happening around and before her? I have a zillion other thoughts/questions, but let's leave it at that.... Jenny Oh dear, now that I'm reading this over Bob M. - I'm not sure it's all that more interesting than oil/war! : ) U2 on LAUNCH - Exclusive medley & videos from Greatest Hits CD ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2002 09:48:37 EST From: Murphycopy@aol.com Subject: Re: Joni, "an original" Jenny writes: << Oh dear, now that I'm reading this over Bob M. - I'm not sure it's all that more interesting than oil/war! : ) >> But, Jenny, it is! It IS! << when is an artist ground breaking - when an artist truly comes up with something new or combines influences in a way that has never been done before? >> I think this happened when Joni heard the Dylan song that made her realize that lyrics could be about anything. (I forget what song it was, but someone will know.) This lead to her "confessional" period, which was terrific, and then she was off and running . . . out-writing and out-composing everyone, in my opinion, for many years. --Bob ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2002 10:7:51 -0800 From: "Victor Johnson" Subject: RE: Joni, "an original For pop/rock music history buffs - or heck for people who were actually cognizant at the time - how do you see Joni in the context of popular music? How about in music in general? Did she truly become an original right of the bat with STAS - or was that more a logical, albeit creative outflow of what was happening around and before her? Both. She was truly original right off the bat and was taking in everything that was happening around and before her which helped shape her creative outflow. I think it was definately a combination and that both elements are important. What would be interesting, is if the Joni now, who is 59, could meet the 25 year old Joni. I wonder what kind of a conversation they would have. As much as Joni talks about influencing other people, she herself was undoubtedly influenced by other musicians around her. I've often wondered if she is a Nick Drake fan as they both debuted albums at roughly the same time, though across the ocean from each other. Victor - --- Victor Johnson - --- waytoblu@mindspring.com Visit http://www.cdbaby.com/victorjohnson Look for the new album "Parsonage Lane" in March 2003 Produced by Chris Rosser at Hollow Reed Studios ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2002 10:14:26 -0800 From: "Victor Johnson" Subject: Travelogue release / Pearl Jam (sjc) I know there's been some discussion as to who the targeted audience is for Travelogue, or if there even is one, if its marketable, etc.... I thought this was an interesting article on Pearl Jam and the approach they're taking. From today's NY Times: Pearl Jam Turns Pop Fame on Its Head: Less Is More By HUGO LINDGREN EDDIE VEDDER of Pearl Jam, with his basso profundo voice and mile-deep furrows in his brow, was, for a time, the mascot of grunge-era MTV. Then he decided he couldn't take it any longer. Mr. Vedder says the turning point came several years ago when he was in Australia. He had gone to a fair, and, as was his custom, he practically hid in his own clothes: collar turned up, hat pulled low. Minding his own business, he felt a tap on his shoulder; he wheeled around expecting to have to tell a fan to please leave him alone. Instead he saw a friend, a well-known professional surfer. "He was just there with his family, walking around like an ordinary person," Mr. Vedder recalled recently. "I thought right then: That's what I want. That's what I got to get back to." So how do you find a middle ground between fame and reclusiveness? "You stop going on television," Mr. Vedder said. "You get your life back." He and his band mates got their lives back, but at a steep cost - at least if measured in record sales. Every studio album they have made, with one exception, has sold less than the one before it. Their debut release, "Ten," from 1991, sold nearly 10 million copies; their 2000 release, "Binaural," sold 750,000. If Pearl Jam was a stock, you would have dumped it by now. "We decided that our audience needed some serious weeding out," Mr. Vedder said. Pearl Jam's latest album, "Riot Act" (Epic), which is due out on Tuesday, reflects the band's campaign to defuse its popularity. The record sounds as if it were made to slip quietly into the marketplace, connect with the faithful and leave everyone else alone. There is no catchy single, and not even the slightest echo of anything else happening in pop music now. - --- Victor Johnson - --- waytoblu@mindspring.com Visit http://www.cdbaby.com/victorjohnson Look for the new album "Parsonage Lane" in March 2003 Produced by Chris Rosser at Hollow Reed Studios ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2002 08:42:39 -0800 (PST) From: Jesika Nisly Subject: thank you fans! Thank you very much to all who responded to my cry for help! I think this Joni Mitchell paper will turn out good afterall! whew! Jesika U2 on LAUNCH - Exclusive greatest hits videos http://launch.yahoo.com/u2 ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2002 11:56:30 -0500 From: Jerry Notaro Subject: Re: thank you fans! Jesika Nisly wrote: > Thank you very much to all who responded to my cry for > help! I think this Joni Mitchell paper will turn out > good afterall! whew! Maybe, but as a former English teacher I think it would be better for you to turn out well. Jerry :-) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2002 08:55:45 -0800 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: Cowbells, Madonna, Influence >>but Joni is only ragging on Madonna because Joni envious of Madonna's commercial success. True, Madonna is only modestly talented<< from what i understand about joni's views over the years it doesn't seem like she'd rag on anyone out of envy over their commercial success...more likely it is because of the fact that someone can have commercial success when they are modestly talented... ******************************************** Kate Bennett: www.katebennett.com Sponsored by Polysonics/Atlantis Sound Labs Over the Moon- "bringing the melancholy world of twilight to life almost like magic" All Music Guide ******************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2002 11:53:51 -0600 From: "Music Is Special" Subject: Re: P. Gabriel interview on BBC2 Oct. 16th 2002 - Joni mention Interesting comments about all the musicians complaining about being dropped once past 50. I do not disagree. But, it should be noted that they aren't really being treated much differently than most other people on the planet. Increasingly nobody over 50 gets jobs that fully utilize their abilities. The age 65 retirement thing is a myth in that downgrading starts much sooner now despite the rise in lifespans eric ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2002 10:11:13 -0800 From: "Mark or Travis" Subject: Re: Joni, "an original" > << when is an artist ground breaking - when an artist truly comes up with > something new or combines influences in a way that has never been done > before? >> > > I think this happened when Joni heard the Dylan song that made her realize > that lyrics could be about anything. (I forget what song it was, but someone > will know.) This lead to her "confessional" period, which was terrific, and > then she was off and running . . . out-writing and out-composing everyone, in > my opinion, for many years. > I think Murphy hit the nail right on the head. My take on it is that until Joni came along, you had Dylan, Leonard Cohen, Paul Simon and a few others who were writing songs with lyrics that were approaching the level of poetry in their depth and quality. In my mind, Dylan was lauded mostly because his songs dealt with social issues. Cohen & Simon's writing was more personal and in some cases, interesting musically but not particularly daring or innovative. Then along comes Joni. Her lyrics are personal, poetic, beautifully descriptive, complex and precise. Added to that, she is writing melodies that the others have not begun to approach in their intricacy and beauty. Plus the lyrics and melody fit together in such a way that one is the perfect expression of the other. She pushed the boundaries of pop music from the very start both lyrically and musically. She continued to develop and then in 1975 she released 'The Hissing of Summer Lawns' and almost left the realm of pop music completely, imo. There may have been other artists who had combined pop & jazz before her, but I have never heard it done in quite the same way. And lyrically she put herself in a class by herself with that album. The poetic imagery, the analytical depth and the intelligence of those lyrics set a standard that few could aspire to then or now. The amazing part is that she kept going and continues to amaze me to this day. Mark E Marcus Aurelius in Seattle ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2002 13:20:33 EST From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: Joni, "an original" In a message dated 11/10/2002 9:35:45 AM Eastern Standard Time, jrgoodspeed@yahoo.com writes: > Specifically - when do you think Joni broke some ground? And what was her > contribution - lyrical...musical. Well, I may not be the right one to answer, as I didn't really pick up on Joni until C&S, but having listened to her complete works now for awhile and being able to trace the sequence, I would say that her composing in unique tunings was ground-breaking. Not that she was the first one to do it, but that she ONLY wrote in alternates...created such different sounding chord shapes & patterns! Even looking back to when "Help Me" came out on the radio, it was SO unique and fresh-sounding. Also the way she multi-tracked her own vocals; again she didn't invent it but it was the first time I remember hearing it. Her approach to playing the piano also sounds 'groundbreaking' to me - not being a musician I can't say why, it might just be her chordal combinations. Her sampling of and inclusion of world music in her work - certainly a tired cliche now but remember when you heard "Jungle Line" for the first time? Then of course there are the words. She came right out of the block writing in her own blood..."I had a king in a tenement castle..." This was obviously autobigraphical, BUT it was so genuine, so purely real that it became universal - something we could all relate to. And the images she stirs up with her words...also groundbreaking I think. Nary a cliche to be found (which is probably why "one big boo hoo" resonates so awkwardly with some of us). Additionally, her vocabulary, imagery, & metaphor are unprecedented, Dylan notwithstanding. And her business sense is also groundbreaking in her way...firstly she retained total control over her publishing; rarely if ever done from what I understand. And career-wise, where contemporaries find a commercial niche and stay there (and nothing wrong with doing so), Joni constantly turns her back on commerciality, reinventing herself and following her own direction instead, confusing the industry & her casual fanbase, and even confounding most of the hardcores like us! Again, I don't know that she is the FIRST to do any of these, I can only say that she is the BEST. Bob ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2002 13:23:12 EST From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: Joni, "an original" In a message dated 11/10/2002 9:49:33 AM Eastern Standard Time, Murphycopy@aol.com writes: > I think this happened when Joni heard the Dylan song that made her realize > that lyrics could be about anything. (I forget what song it was, but > someone > will know.) Positively 4th Street, when she heard the line "You've got a lotta nerve, to say that you're my friend..." Bob ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2002 10:26:38 -0800 (PST) From: Jenny Goodspeed Subject: RE: Joni, "an original Yes! In fact, that is one of the reasons I'm pondering this stuff because I was struck by the similarity between STAS and Five Leaves Left. They both use unusual open tunings and chord progressions and especially Nick - unconventional finger picking. Also Bruce C.'s first album came out close to these two also showcasing stellar though more blues-based open-tunings finger pickin'. So I'm wondering, what was in the water these guys were drinking at the time? i.e., who were the predecessors, if any? Dylan, Cohen, blues? Jenny U2 on LAUNCH - Exclusive medley & videos from Greatest Hits CD ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2002 13:27:03 -0500 From: "Bree Mcdonough" Subject: re: out original visual concept-sjc >I remember hearing Eric Carmen of the Raspberries on the AM radio when I >was probably in the 2nd or 3rd grade. After hearing his voice, I fell in >(puppy)love with this man. I pictured him as being incredibly sexy and >good-looking. I have no idea why. Even to this day, I do not know what the >man looks like nor have I purchased any albums either. (sounds a little >dated in my head now). You pictured him correctly, Mia. He is the sensual and the quite type.... A cutie...I could switch for him! Not drop- dead gorgeous...but something about him... Nice chops too! Bree >Mia > > >_________________________________________________________________ >The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE* >http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2002 11:01:00 -0800 (PST) From: Jenny Goodspeed Subject: Re: Joni, "an original" You know it just dawned on me today that I can't distinguish between the two Bobs in an email by referring to one of them as Bob M. Geez can't you guys do something about this? You're so right BOB who does not channel Ethel, - maybe not the first, but the *best*, I like that. She raised the bar sky high. I'm reminded of a quote by Tom Petty, when an interviewer asked him about how he wrote lyrics, what he does when he struggles with a line, and he replied, "It's only rock 'n' roll. It's not supposed to be *that* good" With her work, Joni made a statement, it *can* be that good and isn't it great when it is? (As a non-genius songwriter myself, however, I prefer Petty's quote). I had been seeing every record up until Hejira as incredibly creative and beautiful and original, but not necessarily ground-breaking. Well, in the realm of pop music, she was original out of the gate, but sometimes the way Joni talks, it's as if she invented a whole new kind of music, not just in the realm of pop. But when I heard Hejira - it was a new sound. Actually, it wasn't it! I had spent a few years collecting Windham Hill samplers just before that and when I heard the timeless Hejira, it was like oh wow -not that she'd be proud - but I think Hejira spawned the genre of new age music! Her and Jaco I should say. Thanks for your thoughts - and I am anxious to other's opinions. Jenny SCJoniGuy@aol.com wrote:In a message dated 11/10/2002 9:35:45 AM Eastern Standard Time, jrgoodspeed@yahoo.com writes: > Specifically - when do you think Joni broke some ground? And what was her > contribution - lyrical...musical. Well, I may not be the right one to answer, as I didn't really pick up on Joni until C&S, but having listened to her complete works now for awhile and being able to trace the sequence, I would say that her composing in unique tunings was ground-breaking. Not that she was the first one to do it, but that she ONLY wrote in alternates...created such different sounding chord shapes & patterns! Even looking back to when "Help Me" came out on the radio, it was SO unique and fresh-sounding. Also the way she multi-tracked her own vocals; again she didn't invent it but it was the first time I remember hearing it. Her approach to playing the piano also sounds 'groundbreaking' to me - not being a musician I can't say why, it might just be her chordal combinations. Her sampling of and inclusion of world music in her work - certainly a tired cliche now but remember when you heard "Jungle Line" for the first time? Then of course there are the words. She came right out of the block writing in her own blood..."I had a king in a tenement castle..." This was obviously autobigraphical, BUT it was so genuine, so purely real that it became universal - something we could all relate to. And the images she stirs up with her words...also groundbreaking I think. Nary a cliche to be found (which is probably why "one big boo hoo" resonates so awkwardly with some of us). Additionally, her vocabulary, imagery, & metaphor are unprecedented, Dylan notwithstanding. And her business sense is also groundbreaking in her way...firstly she retained total control over her publishing; rarely if ever done from what I understand. And career-wise, where contemporaries find a commercial niche and stay there (and nothing wrong with doing so), Joni constantly turns her back on commerciality, reinventing herself and following her own direction instead, confusing the industry & her casual fanbase, and even confounding most of the hardcores like us! Again, I don't know that she is the FIRST to do any of these, I can only say that she is the BEST. Bob U2 on LAUNCH - Exclusive medley & videos from Greatest Hits CD ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2002 14:15:03 EST From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: Joni, "an original" In a message dated 11/10/2002 2:01:16 PM Eastern Standard Time, jrgoodspeed@yahoo.com writes: > You know it just dawned on me today that I can't distinguish between the two > Bobs in an email by referring to one of them as Bob M. Geez can't you guys > do something about this? > > OK, from now on I'm going to go by "Victor"! :~) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2002 11:53:31 -0800 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: joni & sting sting has acknowledged joni's influence on his music (ladies of the canyon in particular) & joni has acknowledged stings (police era) music on her music ******************************************** Kate Bennett: www.katebennett.com Sponsored by Polysonics/Atlantis Sound Labs Over the Moon- "bringing the melancholy world of twilight to life almost like magic" All Music Guide ******************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2002 14:56:29 EST From: TerryM2222@aol.com Subject: Re: Travelogue question (again) In a message dated 11/9/2002 11:59:31 PM Eastern Standard Time, evian@sk.sympatico.ca writes: > > > Dr. SigMondegreen ; ) > > Terry www.addconsults.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2002 15:08:27 EST From: Murphycopy@aol.com Subject: Re: Joni, "an original" The other Bob writes: << OK, from now on I'm going to go by "Victor"! :~) >> And I'll be Ashara! --Ashara ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2002 14:13:21 -0600 From: Franklin Shea Subject: njm pc >JMDL Digest Sunday, November 10 2002 Volume 2002 : Number 476 > > > >The Official Joni Mitchell Homepage, created by Wally Breese, can be >found at http://www.jonimitchell.com. It contains the latest news, >a detailed bio, Original Interviews, essays, lyrics and much much more. > >The JMDL website can be found at http://www.jmdl.com and contains >interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. >========== > >TOPICS and authors in this Digest: >-------- > Re: Oil/war (njc) (pc) ["kakki" ] > Re: Oil/war (njc) (pc) [colin ] > [none] [Franklin Shea ] > Fw: Fw: The art of misreading. NJC ["kasey simpson" Content [Franklin Shea ] > Re: Fw: Fw: The art of misreading. NJC [colin ] > Meriwether Lewis(NJC) ["Darice(darice@mindspring.com)" Grammy cut off date [KLCass21@aol.com] > Re: njc 8 Mile [TerryM2222@aol.com] > Re: Oil/war/UN resolution (njc) (pc) ["kakki" ] > Re: Madonna, Eminem NJC ["mack watson-bush" ] > Re: Oil/war (njc) (pc) ["kakki" ] > DED njc ["mack watson-bush" ] > No messin' ["William" ] > Requesting help from Joni fans... [Jesika Nisly ] > Re: NJC - What do Bush and Madonna have in common? ["kakki" RE: Travelogue question (again) [Rob Procyk & Tracy Tolley Evian takes us down the memory trail [vince ] > Re: Travelogue question (again) ["Mark or Travis" ] > Re: Oil/war (njc) (pc) ["kakki" ] > ouch! njc ["Jim L'Hommedieu \(Lama\)" ] > Re: Evian takes us down the memory trail - njc [Murphycopy@aol.com] > >---------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Date: Sat, 9 Nov 2002 14:13:02 -0800 >From: "kakki" >Subject: Re: Oil/war (njc) (pc) > >Jenny wrote: > >> A couple more thoughts: >> I think the humanitarian argument for initiating a war doesn't fly because >it is selective. If we were driven by this, >then we would intervene far >more often in the world than we do. kakki wrote: >It's a matter of numbers and resources - more people and countries, >including the U.S,. are in direct immediate danger from Saddam at this time. >If he can be stopped, it is ultimately a humanitarian "win" and may possibly >make other despots around the world think twice. Franklin responds: Come on kakki! Us being in immediate danger of Saddam Insane is about as plausible as Mike Tyson being in immediate danger of a grade school bully. And as far as humanitarian wins, the U.S. regime is incapable of honoring the word "humanitarian". How many innocent Iraqi citizens, children have died, starved - sure partly because of Saddam, but they can't get the medical supplies (funny, you'd think the wacky "scientists" over there could plagiarize our medicines if they are so talented at making those BIG BAD BOMBS they "supposedly" have, specifically aimed right at your (OUR) living room TV entertainment centers. Now that's enough to get any ignorant, self-indulgent, "scared" (of what, I might rhetorically ask) plebeian riled to the rafters. BTW, I heard they were thinking of bombing the main Budweizer, Miller, Pabst, Coors and Schlitz breweries simultaneously, but quickly realized after closer evaluation that this would most assuredly cause WORLD WAR III, faster than a major drug-riddled, bimbo-boinking, back-slapping O.J. bash gets thrown after a double murder acquittal by a jury composed of shear rabble!!! > >kakki writes: > >That was back when Iran was attacking U.S. citizens and avowing itself as an >enemy of the U.S.. Not to say it wasn't completely boneheaded to have been >so quick to support Saddam. I think the reasoning at the time was to let >both of them focus on each other rather than other countries. I've seen >this question and heard it answered that the U.S. was also an ally of Stalin >in WWII but then that all changed very quickly after that war as we all >know. Franklin responds: kakki, kakki. The entire Iraq/Iran war was a military industrial boondoogle which made hundreds and hundreds of billions for the SFGBC (Shadow fascist government billionaire's club). After all, we had kept the dictator - Mr. Shah of Iran in power by selling him all the military hardware his oil bank accounts could handle (hmmmm, seems he hi-tailed it out of there with, what was it, 25 Billion in pocket change before the I-A-TOl-a-So arrived on with his camel caravan. So he did keep a little "pocket" change set aside for rainy days and unforseen emergencies, like losing your DICTATOR job. Gotta have something stored back to keep the kids in AMERICAN colleges - you know how much THAT costs.) Anyway, the diabolically brilliant SFGBC supplied both sides, ala the non-copyrighted Rothschild philosophy that worked for so many centuries - PROXY. You know, one party supplying both combatants with the weapons to destroy each other. The Rothschild's did that with enormous, gargantuan financial success in Europe for centuries. There's PLATINUM in them thar' hills. It is the surest, most dependable bet in town. Just got to keep fomenting em' up. Bless the CIA stooges, er, I mean "operatives". Just what would we do without them? BTW - are you aware that the bullets in the AK-47's used by the NVA in Vietnam to kill our kin were sold to them by the trainload from a manufacturing plant in Czechoslovakia owned by - you guessed it - the SFGBC. Pure proxy, pure proxy, supplying both sides in the age old tradition. >kakki writes: > >I'm still waiting for someone to explain how not trying to stop him will >make us safer. If we don't do anything and are attacked in the U.S. with >anthrax and smallpox and dirty nukes, which they probably already have in >place here, then what do we say? I know a lot of people will say it's all >Bush's fault, either way. That will make some people happy because they can >feel they were right all along but what a pyrrhic victory for them. What >suggestions do you have to stop the threat? I don't mean that facetiously >but it seems no one has any better ideas. Franklin responds: What threat? Do you mean the threat of the "Cheney/Bush" Regime assaulting Iraqi with a few hundred thousand troops, and a few hundred billion bucks worth of perfected murder/mayhem gadgets thrown in? (I can smell the Military Industrial side of the Cartel's total glee even as I write). The idea of assaulting Iraqi to defend our "homeland" is equivalent to immediate open heart surgery for acid indigestion after a teenager has just eaten too many Happy Meals. Try Rolaids instead, or if you prefer your calcium compliments of another branch of the pharmo side of the cartel, Pepcid AC. BTY: Bush IS big enough to stand-up and take the heat (blame), after all, he has no alternative - he is under direct orders to do so from his "handlers" and will be well-taken care of when the dust settles. >Jenny asks kakki: > >>Has our intervention and involvement in the middle east *ever* made us >safer? kakki's reply: >Yes, for years we've stopped a lot of terrorist groups in the mid-east from >attacking us more than they would have if we had just let them go unchecked. >However, a lot of our interventions and how they stopped us from harm will >never be detailed on TV or universally disseminated. I know this for a >fact, and I know that many people in the U.S. who have worked in the >government or military also know this for a fact, but are constrained from >giving out the details to the public. I'd like to give my own personal >knowledge of such instances but I think classified security clearances are >in effect forever. Franklin responds: Ya, they're constrained alright. There would be too many criminal prosecutions and jail sentences handed out for international crimes that have been committed, in direct violation of U.S. laws and statutes. Just why do you think we've had terrorist groups to "stop". It is DIRECTLY a reaction to all the ridiculous, exploitive, manipulative, underhanded, conniving, Dictator-picking and supporting the US Regime has done for the GFGBC for decades over there. While I think terrorism is a dispicable reaction reserved for lunatics and brain-washed, false religious indoctrinated morons, just how do you think that a cabal of bitter, brutalized, betrayed bedouins feel about all this? A little peeved perhaps? (By the way, do you/did you, work for the government kakki? Just curious as per your last sentence.) kakki says: > >Has George Tenet presented us with a better alternative plan? I haven't >seen any, other than to not do anything. Tenet is a bona fide, order-taking lackey. You don't get the "heralded" position of head of the CIA without such clearance. No way. Any arguments he has posited differing from the "Administration's" position are merely "plants", directly dictated to him, to make it look like "meaningful" dialogue is occurring. kakki says: > >With all this said, I would still like more details released to the public >as to why Saddam is an imminent threat. Donald Rumsfeld and Condoleeza Rice >both gave interviews on TV back in September stating unequivocally that >there is hard evidence linking Iraq and Saddam with Bin Laden and Al Qaeda. >I am surprised that more people did not notice this but a lot gets lost in >the news coverage. I'd like to hear more about the direct evidence to help >myself and others understand the threat better. Although, it's not much of >a stretch for me for me to think they are involved with each other. I think >we are between a rock and a hard place. All we can do is hope that Saddam >agrees with the UN resolution and agrees to the start complying again with >the UN rules in his country. Franklin comments: What kind of Regime "details"? Would you prefer false (the prevalent variety) or true (don't hold your breath)? The only "hard" evidence I see "linking" Saddam and Osama is that the SFGBC created, trained, funded, and backed them both when it suited their needs. Now they are both "dead" men - having no "practical" purpose anymore while alive to create "economic growth". But wait there's still hope: do you actually think that the SFGBC didn't have this covered from both angles from the start? Come on now! These guys are the original experts at exploiting situations at "every" angle. Always planned that way from the start in fact, every step, every plan. Now "going after them", (killing them as well as everyone else in the vicinity) with as much high-ticket military industrial product as the taxpayers will allow) is going to be the next step in paving the way to the SFGBC members bulging-at-the-seams, elephantile bank accounts. Man, they just get ya' coming and going, don't they? What a bunch a' guys. Ya gotta hand it to them, they sure are "creative" in their own little proxy/foxy ways. Franklin ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2002 10:23:43 -0800 From: "kakki" Subject: Re: njm pc Hi Franklin, I must say I like the way you weave humor into your points. ;-) Truly, part of me would love to just go with the idea that it is all about a huge conglomerate Illuminati that controls everything. That way none of us have to think or fret much further about it all and we can all just go on and enjoy Joni's music and eke out what little happiness we can find in our short days on this earth. I'm not being totally facetious! This would simplify it all for us. And as I told you yesterday, I'm not above considering conspiracy theories. > Ya, they're constrained alright. There would be too many criminal > prosecutions and jail sentences handed out for international crimes > that have been committed, in direct violation of U.S. laws and > statutes. Nah, maybe they can't talk about because they don't want the public to panic. Keep them going to the malls and keeping up the economy and all ;-) > (By the way, do you/did you, work for the government kakki? Just curious as per your last > sentence.) Use to work for a military defense contractor. Now work in law. Got to go - see you later ;-) Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2002 16:29:29 -0500 From: "Bree Mcdonough" Subject: Re: Joni, "an original" >I heard the timeless Hejira, it was like oh wow -not that she'd be proud - >but I think Hejira spawned the genre of new age music! Her and Jaco I >should say. >Thanks for your thoughts - and I am anxious to other's opinions. Jenny If someone put a gun to my head or a twinkie in front of me and said you must state your favorite Joni album of all time... I would say..HEJIRA. NEW AGE? I dislike NA a great deal...does nothing for me..rather phony and bland/trite. Hejira was ground-breaking..exploding with creativity yet subtle. I could go on...pristine beauty...touches me to the very core!! I think when we are all dead and gone...Hejira will be understood by more than just a handful. And it will go down in history as one of the greatest masterpieces in all recorded history. Bree _________________________________________________________________ STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2002 13:37:58 -0800 (PST) From: Jenny Goodspeed Subject: Re: Joni, "an original" Bree Mcdonough wrote: If someone put a gun to my head or a twinkie in front of me and said you must state your favorite Joni album of all time... I would say..HEJIRA. LOL. Me too! I probably would even call it my favorite album of all time period. Just to clarify...I was not calling Hejira new age - I believe that it was a big influence on the early Windham Hill catalog. Which as far as I know led (digressed) to the genre we now call new age. Jenny _________________________________________________________________ STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail U2 on LAUNCH - Exclusive medley & videos from Greatest Hits CD ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2002 17:22:31 -0500 (EST) From: "walterphil" Subject: so sad listened to the "travelog" links today and i find them so sad why would joni release so many of her old songs when to me every comparison to the way her voice used to sound just makes me wince. and just as i thought--- i hate the lame orchestrations i wish she'd just give up cigarettes laura nyro did and her voice improved. judy collins and joan baez' voices are still beautiful and neither smokes. i just wonder if jonis would improve. i'll bet it would. i guess she just doesn't care that much i read in an interview once when she had that throat thing she said "they tried to blame it on my cigarettes" "my" cigarettes indeed. in the same interview she went on to say how she preferred billie holiday's later singing voice. rubbish. i know it's a matter of opinion, but give me the 30's billie over the lady in satin period any day. and those recent quotes about madonna-- so pathetic i love madonna yet i realize she isn't half the "artist" joni is and anyone who would give a listen to "ray of light" could see how much madonna is influenced by and respects joni. it's just so obvious to me that "ray" is kind of madonna's "hejira" i'm sure madonna was very hurt when she read joni's comments. i also wonder if joni ever listened to "ray of light" or "music" i'll bet money she never has. i'll still always love joni and i will listen when she drags out that gutair again and sings a new song. in the meantime i will listen to "seagull" and "clouds" and "roses" and "nightride home" for the zillionth time xxx walt The most personalized portal on the Web! ------------------------------ End of onlyJMDL Digest V2002 #334 ********************************* ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she? 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