From: les@jmdl.com (onlyJMDL Digest) To: onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Subject: onlyJMDL Digest V2002 #314 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/onlyjoni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com Unsubscribe: mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe onlyJMDL Digest Thursday, October 24 2002 Volume 2002 : Number 314 The Official Joni Mitchell Homepage, created by Wally Breese, can be found at http://www.jonimitchell.com. It contains the latest news, a detailed bio, Original Interviews, essays, lyrics and much much more. The JMDL website can be found at http://www.jmdl.com and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Today in History: October 23 [ljirvin@jmdl.com] WFUV [Cactustree78@aol.com] Kathleen Turner is a lesbian [Gordon Mackie ] Joni & baby [Bob.Muller@fluor.com] Re: Joni & baby [Mags N Brei ] Re: Speaking like a lesbian [Jerry Notaro ] Re: Speaking like a lesbian [Yael Harlap ] Re: Speaking like a lesbian [Murphycopy@aol.com] Joni Covers Dislikes and Likes ["Happy The Man" ] Speaking like a lesbian ["Kate Bennett" ] Re: Speaking like a lesbian ["Blair Fraipont" ] alligators ["Kate Bennett" ] Joni segment on the radio this week [Mags N Brei ] Joni on the radio [Mags N Brei ] Re: Joni on the radio [Mags N Brei ] Re: JMDL Digest V2002 #439 [BRYAN8847@aol.com] Re: JMDL Digest V2002 #439 [BRYAN8847@aol.com] Joniphobic? [KJHSF@aol.com] Re: Joniphobic? [CoyoteRick@aol.com] Re: Joni Covers Dislikes and Likes [CoyoteRick@aol.com] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 03:00:44 -0400 From: ljirvin@jmdl.com Subject: Today in History: October 23 1998: Joni performed in Minneapolis on the first night of her Fall tour with Bob Dylan. More info: http://www.jmdl.com/performances/docs/981023.cfm http://jonimitchell.com/RoadAgainMinneapolis98.html - ---- For a comprehensive reference to Joni's appearances, consult Joni Mitchell ~ A Chronology of Appearances: http://www.jonimitchell.com/appearances.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 03:29:21 -0400 From: Cactustree78@aol.com Subject: WFUV Thanx for the heads up..FUV is my absolute favorite radio staion...Not only do they play Joni(plus other amazing artists) but the dj's are some of the cream of New York radio history...I hope those of you who dont live in the "tri state area" can access FUV via the internet its really worth it hope all are doin well 28 daze til JONI!!!(And 6 daze til new Tori if anyone cares??) Peace and love your way ****kev*** ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 09:38:41 +0100 From: Gordon Mackie Subject: Kathleen Turner is a lesbian Hi Y'all Well someone had to say it....but joking aside, I did't have quite the same reasction to Joni's comments. I understand them to mean that people are so judgemental that they make such inane assumptions all to quickly. Watch this space for some feedback from the International McJoni fest in Scotland....maybe some pics too !(over to you Laurent in Paris....lol). Three listers (and one significant other) met at the bonnie bonnie banks of Loch Lomond on Saturday and had a great day. Willy the Shake was there, Laurent Oszler (and Dominique) and me. And did we have fun....yes we did. Did we have good weather..yes we did....did L & D make it to the John Martyn concert...no they didn't. Ooops! Watch this space Gordon ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 08:31:57 -0400 From: Bob.Muller@fluor.com Subject: Joni & baby And here I thought our Mags was just another pretty face in a pair of Doc Martens...the post from a couple of days ago, regarding Joni's line in 'River' - "I made my baby cry, I made my baby say goodbye'...she supported an allusion to Joni's usage of baby as potentially referencing her surrendering of her own for adoption. In the past when this same statement has been made, I've been quick to dismiss it, in context of the song itself. And indeed, if that's ALL that you look at, that probably holds true. After all, Joni is clearly referencing a LOVER that's lost, not a child. BUT...when I look at the line in the context of Blue as an album, as a coherent project, and when I realize that Ms. Gross has had her own "Little Green" experience and probably has a 'sixth sense' about this kind of thing, I was drawn to re-examine and validate my opinion about the line and look at it again. And I did, and Joni's use of the word 'baby' (thanks again to Les' lyric search engine) reveals some interesting things. In "My Old Man", as in River, Joni's singing about a love relationship, but interjects a potentially subliminal thought: "He's the warmest chord I ever heard Play that warm chord, play and stay baby" Now while I don't think the "chord" she's talking about is an umbilical, doesn't the last part of this have an interesting double meaning, just as it does in River? Just as she makes her baby say goodbye, here she longs for her baby to stay & play. A similar claim could be made for "Chelsea Morning" when she sings: "If only you will stay Pretty baby, won't you Wake up, it's a Chelsea morning" And wishes her pretty baby could stay. Additionally, Chelsea doesn't really have any cross-references to the object of her affection being a lover or a guy, and the images in the song (rainbows, butterscotch, jewel-light, Christmas bells, crimson crystal beads, etc.) suggest a child-like setting. Like "Morning Morgantown", Chelsea Morning can easily be construed as being a fantasy about her ideal morning spent just waking up and greeting the day with her own flesh & blood child. (And yes, I am aware that CM & MM are not on Blue...but like Little Green, they were composed during the same period of her career, even if they are spread out over three albums). But back to the songs on Blue...we find yet another 'baby' referenced in "This Flight Tonight": "Can't numb you out Can't drum you out of my mind They're playing Goodbye baby, Baby Goodbye" "Now I can't talk to you baby I get so weak" And while it could be argued (and indeed I would) that, as in River, Joni is textually singing about a relationship with a lover/significant other, isn't it an interesting choice of songs she hears on the headphones?...another reference to saying goodbye to a baby. Perhaps by now it would be safe to say that her processing her parental loss (as well as the romantic one) is clear subtext on Blue. Perhaps this is why she reportedly had many emotionally purging moments during the making of this album. These sessions were, from what I've read, mostly closed. And there are plenty of other references that Joni makes to the word "baby" throughout her work...as it has been stated that Myrtle has been a lyrical influence, I would say that her decision/regret/sorrow surrounding her 'Little Green' experience has been an even greater one. A good question to consider: are these lyrical references intentional or subliminal? Thanks Mags for planting a Little Green seed and allowing me to expand my grasp on Joni Mitchell just a bit. Tell my bro to give you a big hug from me! :~) Bob NP: Laura Lee, "Women's Love Rights" - ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The information transmitted is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain confidential and/or privileged material. If you are not the intended recipient of this message you are hereby notified that any use, review, retransmission, dissemination, distribution, reproduction or any action taken in reliance upon this message is prohibited. If you received this in error, please contact the sender and delete the material from any computer. Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender and may not necessarily reflect the views of the company. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 06:24:39 -0700 (PDT) From: Mags N Brei Subject: Re: Joni & baby Bob.Muller@fluor.com wrote: <> well my bro, you made this baby cry , and that's okay! Thanks so much for your eloquent, thought provoking post. I am touched that you 'get it', that you see between Joni's lines and into her heart. Surely she's reaching out and trying to deal with that pain. Ive said this before and I will say it again, there is no way that this experience is something you ever "get over" as we see little green rising in so many of Joni's lyrics and subject matter. <>> and sometimes there'll be sorrow.That line says it all and is the common thread throughout much of her career. And she tell us Don't Interrupt the Sorrow, because it needs to have a voice. I have always loved Joni's use of the word sorrow which, to me, begins to describe the depth of her loss; if a word could ever do it, this one does. Beyond sad. Sorrow. Just say that word to yourself and feel that heavy impression on your heart. Ouch. <> very true Bob. Like a parallel, the experience is always there, underlying currents, informing every single day of your life for the rest of your days. <>> nice observations Bob! <<>> <<<"Can't numb you out Can't drum you out of my mind They're playing Goodbye baby, Baby Goodbye" >> again, making reference to the deep impact the experience has/had on Joni. she wants to numb it out and cant. no way. "Now I can't talk to you baby I get so weak" <> many of us have picked up on the deep pain and emotionality which exists at many levels in this album. Your consciousness raising is excellent here Bob. I agree completely with your analysis. <> a bit of both, I'd say. Cant drum it out of my mind. Want to numb it out...Try as I might...that kind of thing, cant do it.. Again, and I cant say this enough...the experience of losing her little green would have impacted her and continues to do so. Yea , despite the reunion, there is still that place where her raw voice lives. <> thanks so much for your love and kindness too Bob. I hope that Joni might know some day that her songs played an integral part in my own survival during that time. I cannot believe the things I write to this list, and it's really for the purpose of helping others to understand this most profound experience in Joni's life. It isnt over for her, no way. I lay my life experience down on that one. Mags You open my heart, you do. Yes you do. - JM Yahoo! Autos - Get free new car price quotes ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 09:35:26 -0400 From: Jerry Notaro Subject: Re: Speaking like a lesbian Wally Kairuz wrote: > like... there are no lesbian sopranos or hetero contraltos? astonishing > news. sometimes joni baffles me. > wallyK My take is what Joni sees the American public as believing, not her. I agree with Mack. She's speaking out against homophobia, specifically, and prejudice in general. Jerry ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 08:18:42 -0400 From: Yael Harlap Subject: Re: Speaking like a lesbian hey all- when i went back and read the actual interview, i found, like others, that the music industry comments weren't as acerbic as they sounded in the article. but i definitely DID cringe about a couple of comments she made. for those who didn't see joni's lesbian comment as homophobic (besides just being sort of stupid): to my mind what is... uncomfortable... about what she said is, well, two things. 1. it sounds pretty clear to me that she is 'defending' women with low voices as not being lesbians. i see how someone might read that as defending lesbians as not being people who have low voices, but i don't really think that's what she's saying. it sounds to me much more like people are getting "unfairly" called lesbians - but what's the problem with being called a lesbian? there is a problem? oh, right. that homophobia thing. 2. as colin pointed out, the hairy chest thing. what's up with that? the other thing that i found weird (and maybe is just new to me because i haven't read a lot of joni interviews - maybe this is totally commonplace to everyone else at this point) - her comments about men and women made her sound pretty sexist: RS:Years ago, Dylan was asked in Rolling Stone about some women performers, and he had issues with their onstage sexuality, but he separated you from the rest of the pack. Joni: The interviewer said, "What do you think of these young women?" He said they "whore" themselves -- that was the word he used. And the interviewer said, "Well, what about Joni Mitchell?" And he said, "Well, Joni Mitchell, well, she's kind of like a man." And I thought, "What does he mean by that? Kind of like a man?" I guess that's respectful. It was better than what the women painters used to get -- they were called an associate of the academy. Maybe that's what Bob was talking about -- that he was calling me a member of the academy. Back to Yael - i guess the interviewer is ASKING for this, specifically, so it comes out. but bobby d was certainly being sexist to say joni was 'like a man' as if that makes her better and more worthy of his respect. and joni likes that, buys into it. and i won't even mention the double standard inherent in the comment, as if no rock and roll men trade on their sexuality. the way i see these things - notice, file away, and move on. tori amos has said some similarly dumb things that reveal her prejudices. but we ALL have prejudices - how can we not since we are all raised in racist/classist/sexist/homophobic societies? - and these biases always pop up at awkward moments. in my mind the important thing is to recognize one's own biases and try to undo them when one sees them. luckily for most of us, our stupid comments don't get broadcast to the whole world. (though i suppose anyone could go back to read the jmdl archives, years and years and years from now...) - -yael At 03:00 AM 10/23/02 -0400, you wrote: >RS - Is that why the vocals on your new album sound so much more womanly and >sexy? > >Joni - "Yeah, the soprano is a girly tone, just by the nature of it. You >will notice American women -- because this is such a youth culture - speak >unnecessarily high compared to women around the world. Women in Europe >frequently talk with low voices, but here somebody is ready to call you a >lesbian at the drop of a hat. You know, they want to check for hair on your >chest or something. America is weird that way." ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 10:06:37 EDT From: Murphycopy@aol.com Subject: Re: Speaking like a lesbian Yael writes: << (though i suppose anyone could go back to read the jmdl archives, years and years and years from now...) >> Please, Yael, you're scaring me! Yael also wrote: << it sounds to me much more like people are getting "unfairly" called lesbians - but what's the problem with being called a lesbian? there is a problem? oh, right. that homophobia thing. >> Thanks for saying that, Yael. It's what I was trying to say in my post last night, but you said it much more clearly. --Bob ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 10:14:39 -0500 From: "Happy The Man" Subject: Joni Covers Dislikes and Likes Hate to repeat any already discussed items but I have been in seclusion for a couple of years and decided to chime in. Has Joni ever voiced a opinion about any of the covers of her songs? I love DK's "a case..." but have rarely enjoyed Annie Lennox's version of "Ladies...". Has Joni ever chimed in on any covers? Peace, Craig ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 11:32:50 -0400 From: Bob.Muller@fluor.com Subject: Re: Joni Covers Dislikes and Likes "Has Joni ever voiced a opinion about any of the covers of her songs?" Hi Craig - it shouldn't surprise you that *I'd* respond to this one! :~) In her earliest shows, she alludes to wanting to earn "royalty pennies" from others recording her songs - I'd say she's fulfilled THAT particular wish... Specifically in the 1985 Rock Master Class interview, she mentions Tim Curry's "Cold Blue Steel" and plays a bit of it, and comments that she thinks it's better than hers, that he is able to 'spit out' the words better than she is. She also discussed (or dissed) the Canadian "Back To The Garden" project, saying that the performers for the most part didn't have a very good grasp/understanding of the songs. In an intro to a live performance of BSN, she likens it as her child which has been many places, some of which she would not have advised...and as we all know, BSN is her "franchise" cover, supposedly having been recorded over 300 times. To date I've been able to verify about 250 of those, the most recent being a recording by Bruce Foulke on his CD "Shade of Paradise" released this very month! I'm sure if she ever heard some of these covers that we've been able to collect thus far, all she would say is "Oh dear!" ;~) Bob NP: The Soul Children, "Hearsay" - ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The information transmitted is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain confidential and/or privileged material. If you are not the intended recipient of this message you are hereby notified that any use, review, retransmission, dissemination, distribution, reproduction or any action taken in reliance upon this message is prohibited. If you received this in error, please contact the sender and delete the material from any computer. Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender and may not necessarily reflect the views of the company. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 10:17:56 -0700 (PDT) From: anne@sandstrom.com Subject: re: speaking like a lesbian For someone who writes such insightful and poetic lyrics, Joni can trip all over her words in an interview. She sure is prickly sometimes. For the life of me, I don't even understand what she's saying, but I'm somehow taken aback by it. lots of love Anne ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 11:04:47 -0700 From: "Lori Fye" Subject: Re: Speaking like a lesbian Joni said: > Women in Europe frequently talk with low voices, but here somebody is > ready to call you a lesbian at the drop of a hat. You know, they want > to check for hair on your chest or something. America is weird that > way." America is weird that way. It's true, and I don't think Joni was dissing lesbians. Rather, she was pointing out that Americans prefer their women to talk and sing with a "girly" voice. I'm not sure that's entirely true, given the success of Cher and Tracy Chapman, among others. Regardless, I'm not offended by Joni's observation. Lesbian Lori ~ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 12:31:56 -0700 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: Speaking like a lesbian the whole comment is ridiculous starting with the premise that one can even begin to generalize about the voice pitch of woman who are "americans" & "europeans"... ******************************************** Kate Bennett: www.katebennett.com Sponsored by Polysonics/Atlantis Sound Labs Over the Moon- "bringing the melancholy world of twilight to life almost like magic" All Music Guide ******************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 17:54:25 -0400 From: "Blair Fraipont" Subject: Re: Speaking like a lesbian Actually, I don't think she was saying she was concerned about being called a lesbian either. She said, "If you have a low voice they'll call YOU a lesbian"... Emphasis on You.. maybe someone has called her a lesbian, but the emphasis was on any random woman/girl being the assualt of ignorance. Blair > >Weird is right. With her romantic past, Joni is about the last woman in the >world who should be concerned about being called a lesbian. But the fact >that >she *is* concerned is what I find troubling. To me she sounds as small >minded >as she often makes Myrtle out to be. In her defense, though, it would have >been helpful to see and hear her say this comment. God knows I wouldn't >want >to be judged by my words in print! > > --Bob _________________________________________________________________ Surf the Web without missing calls! Get MSN Broadband. http://resourcecenter.msn.com/access/plans/freeactivation.asp ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 15:23:03 -0700 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: alligators flopit "michelles run in with & comments regarding the music industry makes jonis comments look positively meek & mild....:-)" or like tom waitts said "its like going across the river on the back of an alligator" ******************************************** Kate Bennett: www.katebennett.com Sponsored by Polysonics/Atlantis Sound Labs Over the Moon- "bringing the melancholy world of twilight to life almost like magic" All Music Guide ******************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 15:14:19 -0700 (PDT) From: Mags N Brei Subject: Joni segment on the radio this week http://www.whyy.org/91FM/btdt/index.html You open my heart, you do. Yes you do. - JM Y! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your web site ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 15:35:18 -0700 (PDT) From: Mags N Brei Subject: Joni on the radio Let me try this again... http://www.whyy.org/91FM/btdt/index.html 91FM - "Been There Done That" Listen to the current week's show on RealPlayer starting at the 20:00 mark for a nice piece on Miles and Joni You open my heart, you do. Yes you do. - JM Yahoo! Autos - Get free new car price quotes ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 15:39:53 -0700 (PDT) From: Mags N Brei Subject: Re: Joni on the radio Im really sorry, here's what to do... click on the "Listen" at the left hand side of this page and get to the twenty minute mark of the program to hear the piece on Miles and Joni. Mags N Brei wrote:Let me try this again... http://www.whyy.org/91FM/btdt/index.html 91FM - "Been There Done That" Listen to the current week's show on RealPlayer starting at the 20:00 mark for a nice piece on Miles and Joni You open my heart, you do. Yes you do. - - JM Yahoo! Autos - Get free new car price quotes You open my heart, you do. Yes you do. - JM Y! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your web site ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 18:47:00 -0400 From: BRYAN8847@aol.com Subject: Re: JMDL Digest V2002 #439 > Interesting to see Joni bash lesbians, though It doesn't read like lesbian-bashing to me. More like bashing (mildly) those who might make that assumption about a woman. But yes, JM does seem a little behind the times on the gay thing...but I hardly think she's a basher. More like naive or inexperienced. Bryan ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 18:48:40 -0400 From: BRYAN8847@aol.com Subject: Re: JMDL Digest V2002 #439 > Reads to me like she is decrying the > homophobia in America, which is prevalent. Exactly, if not expressing it very wisely. Bryan ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 20:22:26 EDT From: KJHSF@aol.com Subject: Joniphobic? I have a friend in San Francisco who's best friend is one of those three guys who hang out with Joni and shoot pool on Sunday afternoons and who sing with her on PWWAM. And I heard from him that more than a few of Joni's inner circle of young LA musician and actor friends are, indeed, gay. Her Lesbian comment seems to be bashing American culture, where grown women are encouraged to sound like vapid little girls. I had a wonderful voice teacher in college who studied with Edith Skinner, a prominent teacher of American Standard Stage Speech who said that most women in this country place their speaking voice about three notes higher than their "ideal" pitch. I'm sure this is what Joni is addressing. Besides, who was it that wrote..."Fuck it! Tonight I'm going dancing with the drag queens and the punks..."??? Doesn't sound like homophobism to me... Ken ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 02:04:10 EDT From: CoyoteRick@aol.com Subject: Re: Joniphobic? In a message dated 10/23/2002 5:23:02 PM Pacific Daylight Time, KJHSF@AOL.COM writes: > . And I heard from him that more than a few of Joni's inner > circle of young LA musician and actor friends are, indeed, gay. > You are right, Ken, she has many friends who are gay. I don't think any of her references to gay men or lesbians are in any stretch homophobic. Taking the liberty of speaking very broadly, she has a very positive reputation in the LA gay community. I have several acquaintances that are part of that inner circle. I am also sure her new works will be mentioned in the Advocate as was BSN when it was positively reviewed. No regrets, Coyote Rick Casa Alegre Hollywood, California ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 02:08:35 EDT From: CoyoteRick@aol.com Subject: Re: Joni Covers Dislikes and Likes In a message dated 10/23/2002 8:14:55 AM Pacific Daylight Time, cactustreemotel@hotmail.com writes: > Has Joni ever voiced a opinion about any of the covers of her songs? > I can't help but recollect her standing ovation for Rebecca Jenkins (??!) at the Toronto Tribute last October when Ms. Jenkins (again ??!??, some one help me!) covered Two Grey Rooms. Janine, what do you recall? Or were you still having the vapors? No regrets, Coyote Rick Casa Alegre Hollywood, California ------------------------------ End of onlyJMDL Digest V2002 #314 ********************************* ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she? (http://www.siquomb.com/siquomb.cfm)