From: les@jmdl.com (onlyJMDL Digest) To: onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Subject: onlyJMDL Digest V2002 #304 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/onlyjoni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com Unsubscribe: mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe onlyJMDL Digest Wednesday, October 16 2002 Volume 2002 : Number 304 The Official Joni Mitchell Homepage, created by Wally Breese, can be found at http://www.jonimitchell.com. It contains the latest news, a detailed bio, Original Interviews, essays, lyrics and much much more. The JMDL website can be found at http://www.jmdl.com and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- RE: hold the phone! ["Kate Bennett" ] Re: Joni on the music biz [Chihuahua50@aol.com] Re: Joni on the music biz and it going in the crapper ["kakki" ] Re: Joni on the music biz and it going in the crapper ["Brenda" Subject: RE: hold the phone! of course i know that a 3 year old has no business watching mtv!...i'm not saying she is hanging out with the older siblings...i am saying she might be friends with someone who has an older sibling...who watches mtv let me try to say this again...joni's quote did not say that her granddaughter was watching mtv, but that she was being influenced by it...however, everyone jumped to the conclusion that this meant the granddaughter was watching mtv...i did not come to that conclusion at all... i thought perhaps the granddaughter has a friend & that friend has older siblings & those older siblings watch mtv (not the younger sibling & not the granddaughter)...those older siblings then imitate the mtv stuff...the younger sibling who has NOT watched the mtv but who has watched their older sibling, learns these crotch moves...this younger sibling then does the crotch move when playing with the granddaughter & that is how the granddaughter learns the stuff....phew.. i was a very protective parent (no tv) but found that my son picked up stuff in this way all the time...from friends who had older siblings... me **she might be hanging out with kids whose older siblings watch MTV & do the crotch grab...correct me if i am wrong but this statement led someone here to assume that the child's mother was lame for letting her watch mtv? whoa...big leaps of assumptions going on here!** bob Kate, the girl is THREE! What if she were hanging out with "older siblings" who were watching a porno movie? I'm not singling out Kilauren, I'm saying that a 3-year-old has no business watching MTV, and if she is, then the parents are not doing their job, whether Daisy's sitting on her lap watching it or whether Kilauren has turned her over to whoever to babysit. It's bad parenting in my book (but don't get me wrong, it's very common parenting). Where's Julie Z. Webb when you need her? ;~) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 23:54:50 EDT From: Chihuahua50@aol.com Subject: Re: Joni on the music biz In a message dated 10/15/02 11:09:08 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Emily Gray Tedrowe writes: > > From: Emily Gray Tedrowe > Subject: Joni on the music biz > > hi everyone. > > i have to say, i find joni's ranting and raving about the "cesspool" music > industry so tired. Emily, I have to agree with you. It's almost a given when you open up a magazine interview of Joni that you will find this, by now, very familiar rant. I kind of see this subject of the music industry as not worthy of mention. It's a given at this point in time, isn't it? It's the music BUSINESS. The point has been made. "Let me speak, let me spit out my bitterness-" At the same time, I can see how it might be very hard for Joni to let go of the way things were when she first started out. The music business was different in the 60s and early 70s. "I'm all complaints...." I just finished reading the Rolling Stone "Women in Rock Issue" and it was very interesting. Well worth the few bucks if you have the time and the inclination. I have to say I was kind of shocked that a few of these women managed to get any kind of record made at all. One of them, when asked if she was feminist, didn't even know what the word meant. "And you let the wicked prosper, You let their children frisk like deer..." One of the artists said there are two kinds of people who go into the music business. Those who want to make art and those who want to make money and get famous. Those who want to be artists and those who want to be entertainers. Of course nothing is ever that simple or that black and white. There is some desire on the part of artists to make money and be famous. And there is some desire on the part of people seeking fame and fortune to make art and be respected. Some of the women had very insightful, intelligent things to say. And some of them didn't. It's the music business. Some will make money and some will make art. Some will be around next year, and most of them won't. Grace Slick had some interesting things to say about how in the old days artists just put on whatever was clean and got on stage. Now everything is studied and choreographed and planned and styled down to the last piece of fringe. But I do wish Joni would just let the subject of the music business drop. She has a kind of success that most musicians can only dream about. She comes across as bitter. She comes across as envious. And it makes me sad, because I'd like to see her, especially at this point in her life, appreciate her amazing success as an artist, rather than complain about the lack of this or that. In spite of everything she says in interviews, I think there is an important part of Joni that has always wanted that big commercial success. That kind of love/adoration/fame/success is a powerful drug. I think that once someone has experienced that degree of fame, like Joni did in the 70s, it must be very hard to live without. "Once I as blessed; I was awaited like the rain, Like eyes for the blind, like feet for the lame. Kings heard my words, and they sought out my company. But now the janitors of Shadowland flick their brooms at me...." all quotes from: The Sire of Sorrow (Job's Sad Song) And here I sit, chicken scratching, once again writing about the singer instead of the song. Frank ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 20:44:03 -0700 From: "kakki" Subject: Re: Joni on the music biz and it going in the crapper My randon reactions to the article - The first thing is that I had a good belly laugh at the Joni quotes! Then I thought a lot of other things. The royalties dispute with Geffen - we had a thread here long ago where I recall that Geffen sued her for her mechanical (?) royalties to try to re-coup her advance. I think it was Fred Simon and maybe some others who said that such royalties are off-limits legally and it was therefore dirty for Geffen to try to go after them (and he lost the legal fight, too.) On the other hand, do record companies fool around with the royalties owed to artists? A number of artists over the years claim they do. Is it deliberate, or is is just bad or sloppy (and sometimes arrogant) accounting practices? Mostly the latter. Some artists also may see their songs or albums for sale in foreign countries and think to themselves "the record company never paid me for those!" not realizing that they are often "pirated" product, over which the record company has little or no control, especially in those countries where "pirating" is legal. Is Joni crotchety? Yeah! But it reminds me of what I've always heard about growing older. People cut to the chase, get more real and don't give a damn so much anymore with telling it like they think it is, regardless of whether it is correct or not. Does Joni need to get out more? Yes, I have thought so for awhile, now. Maybe she should join in on the list - LOL Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 00:05:42 EDT From: Bobsart48@aol.com Subject: Re: Reuters message boards reactions It seems to me that - even on this list - there have been a few adverse reactions to the news release that seem to take what is reported as a correct reflection of what JM had to say, and to treat it as having been in context. To that I would reply that I try very hard not to jump to such conclusions - even when my gut reaction is emotional one way or the other. I take almost all such stories with a grain of salt - in my observations, they are rarely of high standards of fidelity. For example, I doubt that Joni has "written off" Sting, Morissette and Crow (whatever it means to "write them off"). Still, such an assertion can get a rise out of the reader. I will cut JM some slack on this one, until I see or hear the whole thing in context (I will at least read the RS interview - it was linked here, RS is a rag, I wouldn't have read it otherwise..... ;-) Bob S ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 00:06:17 -0400 From: coyoterick@aol.com Subject: Re: Joni on the music biz Hi Emily: I just wrote privately to my buddy Clark how disappointed and embarrassed I am with JM for the statements she made about the music biz. Thanks, Brenda, for the article comparison. It didn't change my feelings much, but I am glad the RS article was more flattering. I wonder, however, if it makes much difference to JM. She doesn't seem to care. When I think of JM sitting in her Bel Air mansion spewing such insulting comments about the hand that has fed her, I get real agitated. When I think of my musician pals and others relentlessly/devotedly pursuing careers in various fields of entertainment to limited financial avail, I am appalled by the ingratitude JM shows for the business that bought her that mansion and her shopping sprees at agnes b. My friends (entertainment seeking and others) would kill for 1/10 of the success JM has enjoyed. This is an industry that HAS embraced her work. Let's face it -- her longevity has not been based on her record sales, but her enduring, remarkable talent. Which is why we are here. As I rearrange my asbestos suit, I want to be clear I am not defending the music biz. I don't know enough about it to have an opinion one way or the other. What I am saying is one should always recognize their blessings. Especially when they are as rich as those bestowed upon our JM. Show some gratitude, my friend. With huge regrets, Coyote Rick Casa Alegre Hollywood, California ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 21:58:59 -0700 From: "Brenda" Subject: Re: Joni on the music biz (sjc) On 16 Oct 2002 at 0:06, coyoterick@aol.com wrote: > Hi Emily: > > I just wrote privately to my buddy Clark how disappointed and > embarrassed I am with JM for the statements she made about the music > biz. > > Thanks, Brenda, for the article comparison. It didn't change my > feelings much, but I am glad the RS article was more flattering. I > wonder, however, if it makes much difference to JM. She doesn't seem > to care. > I agree Rick...it doesn't change my feelings about her complaints either. However, it is good to know she wasn't still harping about the Geffen stuff and to see the granddaughter comment in context. > As I rearrange my asbestos suit, I want to be clear I am not defending > the music biz. I don't know enough about it to have an opinion one > way or the other. What I am saying is one should always recognize > their blessings. Especially when they are as rich as those bestowed > upon our JM. > I think there are certain things for which the music industry should be defended and even commended. Because the music industry is not just major labels and stolen royalties. It's also indies, pirate radio, fanzines, raves, public access video shows and fan sites. It's No Depression and Urb Magazine; WBGO and WOXY (97X in Cincy); Ubiquity, Luaka Bop and Roadrunner; and Black Lily at the Five Spot in Philly, Peabody's Down Under and the Bridge School Benefit. And it's the people who work in it. Very few of them (including those at the major labels) get the fat cat salaries that are always pointed to and complained about. Most people who work in it, do it because they love music. Brenda n.p.: Coldplay - "Amsterdam" - ------------------------------ Coincidence is God's way of remaining anonymous. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 22:37:44 -0700 From: "Brenda" Subject: Re: Joni on the music biz and it going in the crapper On 15 Oct 2002 at 20:44, kakki wrote: > > On the other hand, do record companies fool around with the royalties > owed to artists? A number of artists over the years claim they do. > Is it deliberate, or is is just bad or sloppy (and sometimes arrogant) > accounting practices? Mostly the latter. Some artists also may see > their songs or albums for sale in foreign countries and think to > themselves "the record company never paid me for those!" not realizing > that they are often "pirated" product, over which the record company > has little or no control, especially in those countries where > "pirating" is legal. > There are things for which I will defend record companies but this is not one of them. Yes, there is some bad and sloppy accounting, however at a lot of companies, there is a systematic and deliberate effort to apply more things to the artist as recoupable than what should be charged to them. The higher that recoupable balance, the more records they have to sell to be paid royalties. Some of the things I've seen artists charged for are nothing short of outrageous. Appliances, spa visits, electronics. NBA center court tickets. There are also lots of records sold which are classified as "free goods," meaning the copy is supposed to be given away to retailers for promotion, however the label gets paid (even though it is supposed to be "free") and hides it from the artist. For accounting purposes, free goods are treated as non-royalty accruing copies even though retailers sell them. This practice is so widespread that there is a boilerplate contract clause to cover it up. In most contracts, artist cannots audit manufacturing. So they cannot find out how many CD's were produced and weigh that against what is reported to have been sold. I saw firsthand the practices which were nothing short of deception. I saw it at major labels, an imprint of a major and at indies. It happens at a lot (if not a majority) of the companies. And the small group of people responsible for the execution of these practices hold the prevailing belief that if the artists can't afford an audit they'll never know what has been improperly charged to them or what their true sales figures are. Brenda n.p.: Air - "All I Need" - -------------------------------------------- "Radio has no future" - Lord Kelvin, 1897 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 22:50:45 -0700 From: "kakki" Subject: Re: Joni on the music biz and it going in the crapper Glad you stepped in, Brenda. I believe you and agree with you and don't want to defend such practices. But haven't a a lot of these practices were being weeded out in the past 10-15 years due to litigation and investigations and crackdowns by law enforcement and regulatory agencies? Or maybe I am being too naive or hopeful and some companies are perhaps putting up a front that they are going to "reform" and then go right back to their old ways again? Also, often the bottom line is that it is almost impossible to dredge up all the old records (which are often long destroyed) or prohibitvely expensive to find and review them all, so a true accounting is in many cases not possible, especially for artists who want to review their accounts from 3o-40 years ago. Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 23:01:48 -0700 From: "kakki" Subject: Re: Joni on the music biz and it going in the crapper Ack - sorry for my typos - long day and strong antibiotics ;-) Had another thought wondering if the record companies may have to change the way they keep their records to some extent (and maybe some have already) because what I've seen in the past is that it is very difficult to do an audit for an individual artist, especially one who has been with a company for a long time. Audits are often made more difficult when the company has gone through a number of ownership changes over the years and records are lost or purged or hard to find because of the constant change in database, filing, recording, storage systems, etc. Some speculate that the record companies like having such "logistical difficulties" on their side in royalty disputes. My bottom line - I think a number of artists have been ripped off or perhaps misled to some degree or another. Kakki ------------------------------ End of onlyJMDL Digest V2002 #304 ********************************* ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she? (http://www.siquomb.com/siquomb.cfm)