From: les@jmdl.com (onlyJMDL Digest) To: onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Subject: onlyJMDL Digest V2002 #298 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/onlyjoni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com Unsubscribe: mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe onlyJMDL Digest Friday, October 11 2002 Volume 2002 : Number 298 The Official Joni Mitchell Homepage, created by Wally Breese, can be found at http://www.jonimitchell.com. It contains the latest news, a detailed bio, Original Interviews, essays, lyrics and much much more. The JMDL website can be found at http://www.jmdl.com and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: Rod Stewart et al [colin ] 31 Blue Years [BRIANASYMES@aol.com] song to a seagull ["Kate Bennett" ] Re: johnny angel [AzeemAK@aol.com] Defending CMIAR [Bob.Muller@fluor.com] Re: Defending CMIAR ["Tom Rodwell" ] Re: Defending CMIAR [Bob.Muller@fluor.com] Re: Defending CMIAR ["Tom Rodwell" ] Charlie [Dave Cuneo ] Re: johnny angel [David Sadowski ] Was: johnny angel, Now: What's sampling, Poppa? [Murphycopy@aol.com] Re: Was: johnny angel, Now: What's sampling, Poppa? [David Sadowski ] Re: Defending CMIAR ["Lori Fye" ] The Last Time I Saw Richard [KJHSF@aol.com] Seasonal Joni Selections [Merk54@aol.com] Re: Seasonal Joni Selections [Jerry Notaro ] book ["Kate Bennett" ] Seasonal Joni [Bob.Muller@fluor.com] Re: book [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] re:standards [Bruce Kimerer ] Re: book ["kakki" ] [none] ["mack watson-bush" ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 08:15:18 +0100 From: colin Subject: Re: Rod Stewart et al I assumed Linda was first ebcause in an interview back then, about Torch, carly talked about Linda's work. Mark or Travis wrote: > > I think Linda was first and then Carly. > > > Actually I'm pretty sure Carly's 'Torch' came before Linda's 'What's New?' > Now I have to get up and go look. Could you hang on for a few minutes? > I'll be right back.......................................Ok, I'm back. Yes. > 'Torch' was released in 1981 and 'What's New' in 1983. Not sure where that > fits in with the Nilsson. > > Mark E. in Seattle > (feeling a little like Judy Garland...'talk to each other...mill around or > something!') - -- bw colin DAK,BRO GC, 950i, 940,860,864,890, 260,Silver 830,860, 580 and 270, Passap 6000, Duo80,Creation 6 colin@tantra-apso.com http://www.tantra-apso.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 03:07:38 EDT From: BRIANASYMES@aol.com Subject: 31 Blue Years Of course I have been listening Stereophonically to Joni since STAS , but while listening to Blue(for the millionth time) last night I got stuck on the phrase "Crown and anchor me" I always got a picture in my head of a tattoo on a sailors shoulder of an Anchor and a Crown with Joni written in fancy script across it. But then all the other associations hit me. The Dice Game, All the Bars(Gay and Straight) named the C&A and what other Meanings C&A Archaic and Modern might have.Blue is the most short and stuningly perfect song when Sneaky Pete first notes start up on Califonia I am awakened from a blue state and sent down the red dirt road in Spain. NP Last train Home, Pat Metheny (A true Classic) Brian Symes ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 01:45:22 -0700 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: song to a seagull confession: i'm not the kind of person who listens to joni a lot...tho i have phases when i will listen to one of her albums many times over...but usually i'm listening to more recently released artists & albums or to the songs inside my head... tonight having read the first almost half of shadows & light, i pulled out 3 of her early albums...song to a seagull, ladies of the canyon & blue...in my memory, my favs have long been lotc & blue... but what suprised me tonight was how mesmerized i was by song to a seagull...even with its engineering problems, her vocal quality & guitar playing are soooo exquisite...the song that really suprised me the most was the pirate of penance...chill factor... maybe its will always have a special hold on me as it was my first introduction to joni...many power of moons ago when i was a young girl...i think it is also a perfect summer changing to autumn album... ******************************************** Kate Bennett: www.katebennett.com Sponsored by Polysonics/Atlantis Sound Labs Over the Moon- "bringing the melancholy world of twilight to life almost like magic" All Music Guide ******************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 05:30:10 EDT From: AzeemAK@aol.com Subject: Re: johnny angel In a message dated 10/10/2002 01:58:48 GMT Daylight Time, revrvl@chartermi.net writes: << But even more - this means that in 1988, while sampling was already being done, Joni was one of the earlier samplers, and at that point, perhaps the most mainstream artist of those experimenting with sampling. >> At this point, I must raise an appreciative voice for a very English genius: Kate Bush. Kate was up at dawn in the day of the sampler. Check out the title song to her 1982 album The Dreaming, which contains the earliest use I know of of that orchestral "stab" that was simply EVERYWHERE for some time afterwards. That song also contains strong aboriginal influences, way before "world music" was in vogue, not to mention Rolf Harris on didgeridu. By the time Joni got to it, it was well established, I'd say. Azeem in London ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 08:07:04 -0400 From: Bob.Muller@fluor.com Subject: Defending CMIAR "workingwilly" said: <> Not from me...I never would have bought it! Come to think of it, I *didn't* buy it when it came out, I borrowed it from my friend David Russell and put it on tape, cutting "Tea Leaf" because I had to trim it to fit on one side of a 45-minute tape and I thought that one to be the worst. <> I just love all these rationalizations for defending Joni's weaker efforts, really...reminds me of when my Mom tried to convince me that I should eat the nasty-tasting food on my plate because kids in China were starving. And I even offered to mail them ALL my peas & carrots! :~) Of course, my Mom ALSO told me that if you can't say something nice about someone, don't say anything at all, so maybe I should just leave poor ol' CMIAR be. Bob NP: Patti Smith, "It Takes Time" - ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The information transmitted is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain confidential and/or privileged material. If you are not the intended recipient of this message you are hereby notified that any use, review, retransmission, dissemination, distribution, reproduction or any action taken in reliance upon this message is prohibited. If you received this in error, please contact the sender and delete the material from any computer. Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender and may not necessarily reflect the views of the company. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 01:46:13 +1300 From: "Tom Rodwell" Subject: Re: Defending CMIAR Bob writes: > > Of course, my Mom ALSO told me that if you can't say something nice about > someone, don't say anything at all, so maybe I should just leave poor ol' > CMIAR be. > Hi Bob....Well I gotta say I really rather dig parts of CMIAR, primarily because of the breathy quality of Joni's singing. I love Beat of Black Wings, Reoccurring Dream (maybe because they were both on the first Joni album I heard - Misses) and Corrina, Corrina I have a lot of time for. But the stand out, for me, has to be Secret Place. That's a killer song in every way; simple but interesting and effective chords, not unlike Night Ride Home, with those add-2's......and what groovy drumming too. By the way, I think Otis and Marlena could be excellent with orchestra. I think we might be surprised by the orchestrations. Who's to say the whole ensemble will be performing on every track? Much of the album could in fact be smaller chamber arrangements. Tom np: Steely Dan "The Fez" ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 08:56:03 -0400 From: Bob.Muller@fluor.com Subject: Re: Defending CMIAR <> That's Manu Katche from Gabriel's band at the time if I'm not mistaken...you're right, and Secret Place is a good track & a nice intro to the record. It's a good idea to find things that work within a song rather than picking faults, so thanks for reminding me to do that. << Who's to say the whole ensemble will be performing on every track? Much of the album could in fact be smaller chamber arrangements.>> Believe me, NOTHING would make me happier! My overriding gripe with BSN was the heaviness of that humongo orchestra sound throughout, with little variation. If she decides to vary her accompanists on Travelogue (btw, what are we gonna abbreviate this one to..."T"?), I will be a happy camper indeed. Especially with O&M, I just don't hear that at all with a FULL orchestra. If she can achieve the sound that Elvis C. got with The Juliet Letters, that would be fine with me. Bob NP: Temptations, "Just My Imagination" - ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The information transmitted is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain confidential and/or privileged material. If you are not the intended recipient of this message you are hereby notified that any use, review, retransmission, dissemination, distribution, reproduction or any action taken in reliance upon this message is prohibited. If you received this in error, please contact the sender and delete the material from any computer. Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender and may not necessarily reflect the views of the company. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 02:03:39 +1300 From: "Tom Rodwell" Subject: Re: Defending CMIAR My overriding gripe with BSN was > the heaviness of that humongo orchestra sound throughout, with little > variation. If she decides to vary her accompanists on Travelogue (btw, what > are we gonna abbreviate this one to..."T"?), I will be a happy camper > indeed. Especially with O&M, I just don't hear that at all with a FULL > orchestra. > Yes neither do I...and I thought BSN coulda been a little smokier and a little less syrupy. I'd like to hear more woodwinds and brass from the orchestra...percussion too...and lots and lots of Herbie H. > If she can achieve the sound that Elvis C. got with The Juliet Letters, > that would be fine with me. Have you heard that Bill Frisell (plus Brian Blade and Greg Liesz) album of covers of the Elvis Costello/Burt Bacharch collaborations? I nearly bought it last month.......and may have to this one. Tom np: Steely Dan "Aja" ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 09:34:36 -0400 From: Dave Cuneo Subject: Charlie Ciao joniphiles, In the FWIW department. "And I have always heard "Charlie Angel" which further supports your >point, > > Jerry..."Charlie" being the name that was used in Vietnam, although I > > forget whether we called them that or they called us that." The insurgents in South Viet Nam were called the Viet Cong, which got shortened to "VC". The military uses a phonetic alphabet and "VC" is "Victor Charlie", which got shortened to "Charlie", which came to mean the enemy. During the Cold War the Russians were "Ivan" (don't know exactly why) and during WW2 the Japanese were called "Tojo". Not sure what they called the Germans other than "Krauts". Today we have all sorts of names for Arabs/Moslems which need not be mentioned here. dave. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 09:07:53 -0500 From: David Sadowski Subject: Re: johnny angel If you really want to get serious about tracing the origins of what we today call "sampling," you can trace them back at least to some novelty hits of the 1950s. And what about The Beatles? Isn't there anything in their canon that could be termed sampling? The ironic thing about the Kate Bush record you mention is that it was not very well received when it came out. It was considered way too experimental... my fave KB record is, and remains, Never For Ever. AzeemAK@aol.com wrote: >In a message dated 10/10/2002 01:58:48 GMT Daylight Time, >revrvl@chartermi.net writes: > ><< But even more - this means that in 1988, while sampling was already being >done, Joni was one of the earlier samplers, and at that point, perhaps the >most >mainstream artist of those experimenting with sampling. >> > >At this point, I must raise an appreciative voice for a very English genius: >Kate Bush. Kate was up at dawn in the day of the sampler. Check out the >title song to her 1982 album The Dreaming, which contains the earliest use I >know of of that orchestral "stab" that was simply EVERYWHERE for some time >afterwards. That song also contains strong aboriginal influences, way before >"world music" was in vogue, not to mention Rolf Harris on didgeridu. > >By the time Joni got to it, it was well established, I'd say. > >Azeem in London ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 10:40:14 EDT From: Murphycopy@aol.com Subject: Was: johnny angel, Now: What's sampling, Poppa? David asks: << And what about The Beatles? Isn't there anything in their canon that could be termed sampling? >> If sampling means sounding like another act, then "Back in the USSR" has that Beach Boys-sounding part. But I always thought that sampling meant actually using the original recording within a new work. And in the case of "The Beat of Black Wings," that's Joni singing "Johnny/Charlie Angel" -- it's not Shelley Fabres' original recording being played -- so I wouldn't call it sampling. So my question is . . . what's the real definition of sampling? --Bob, 'under pressure' to find the meaning of everything ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 10:11:09 -0500 From: David Sadowski Subject: Re: Was: johnny angel, Now: What's sampling, Poppa? If that's your definition of sampling, then there's the "sampled" Spanish guitar part at the beginning of Bungalow Bill on the White Album... which came straight out of the EMI tape archive. In addition, there's the sampled BBC radio broadcast in All You Need Is Love. Really, though, sampling started with novelty singles and comedy records in the 50s. Murphycopy@aol.com wrote: >David asks: > ><< And what about The Beatles? Isn't there anything in their canon that >could be termed sampling? >> > >If sampling means sounding like another act, then "Back in the USSR" has that >Beach Boys-sounding part. But I always thought that sampling meant actually >using the original recording within a new work. And in the case of "The Beat >of Black Wings," that's Joni singing "Johnny/Charlie Angel" -- it's not >Shelley Fabres' original recording being played -- so I wouldn't call it >sampling. > >So my question is . . . what's the real definition of sampling? > > --Bob, 'under pressure' to find the meaning of everything ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 09:52:11 -0700 From: "jeff t." Subject: He said he's leavin' but he don't go Morning group, I know I near-pleaded to be let out last night, but dawn's crack has brought an inner calmness. Plus I've realized a promise is a promise, so Cynthia, here is an answer. It all started in a car. A friend's car, actually and thankfully, for I was having perception issues. And maybe I was unlicensed. I remember the night clearly, for it was hardly a clear night. Fog everywhere ... hard to tell where the car began and ended. Harder still knowing where we began and ended. If you haven't been in that space, e-mail me privately and I'll explain. So there we sat, a slow rumbling building in our famished bellies, as my friend popped a cassette into the dash, claiming I 'ought listen to this.' He loved to use the word 'ought', it being so much friendlier than 'should'. I agreed. To listen I mean... So as that maniacal hunger built in me, out of those (foggy) speakers came a voice so pure, so sexy, so enticing, I thought I may have been hallucinating. "Call me when you're loaded" She implored. "My best recipes?" "Cooking after midnight?", "Sitting on her groceries?". Hell, a pretty good cook was all I needed, not some 4 star gourmand. Who was this Muse who spoke to my inner self? It was all I could think about on the way to the Winn Dixie. Was there more? Was it always about food? Well, those were the days. You have your tales as I do mine. That willowy songbird still perches on my shoulder, welcome company through thick and thin. Of course I have my favorites; worn out albums, rebought CD's, songs that never leave, rifts so pervasive I run stop signs. You guys run stop signs, right? But instead, perhaps more insight into Jeff might be gleaned (please remember my initial post mentioned self-absorption, front and center) by a few examples. Lines that define me. Words that shape me. My favorite perhaps, who can really say?, is from that gem Coyote. When She sings about 'wrestling with my eagle', I swoon. Can you just picture that decked out crow wrestling with her lofty eagle? The very same eagle who later battles Her serpent, it's tail feathers now dragging in the dust cause Her crow had beat the hell out of it. This marvelous avian juxtapositioning never fails to make me soar. Of course She has more tricks up Her sleeves. Perhaps more brilliant in it's wordplay is the biting verse from The Windfall. God I hate that guy. When She finally screams "you'd eat your Jung alive for a Jaguar in the drive" I am so far past fit to be tied I can taste his blood. She nails him though, huh. Her Anima 1, JerkyBoy nuthin'. KO in the final round. Though I hesitate to overuse terminology, I beg your forbearance. She juxtaposes like Ali right here. Yin and Yang, She and He, the reality of a well-connected punch in that sniveling little agent's dreamland of a nose. Anything lower than self-cannibalization, friends? I think not. He's a goner. Well, I know you have lives, but let me offer one more example. This one is particularly endearing in it's simplicity. Transcending Her angst, She now looks inward...homeward, if you will. It comes, juxtapositionally, smack in the middle of Shiny Toys, that anthem to materialism. Refer to Line 31 (of 63, but even She's not a miracle worker): "I Love My Porch" croons out. Can you dig it? All these glittering objects around us but She longs for her porch. Her home. Her sanctuary. Is that mature or what? The world spins out of control around Her and She yearns for an anchor, metaphorically presented as a porch. Better than home, better than hearth, truly a refuge of the road. And if I'm not mistaken, her pal James provides that line, as if he's calling her to come on in. The guy that actually wrote Oh Susannah, another anecdote of the power that 'Home' has on us all. C'mon Joni, here is where you belong. My suspenders and pipe, your good dog and some trees, our deep kisses. Is anyone else tearing up? Give me a moment, Jeff _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 09:56:59 -0700 From: "Lori Fye" Subject: Re: Defending CMIAR This is what always happens when I eventually get around to playing "Chalkmark": I find I like it - all of it - better than I remembered. But then I move on, to play it again (Sam) in another 6 or 8 months. Because it's the one Joni album that just doesn't "do it" for me. Lori ~ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 15:21:53 EDT From: KJHSF@aol.com Subject: The Last Time I Saw Richard Sorry to bother you all with this, but I had promised one of our members in the UK a copy of sheet music to TLTISR and I have lost her address. Please contact me (ken) And, in response to Kate's thought about STAS being a great summer into autumn disc, I've never thought of it that way. But you are right--it does work that kind of wistful melancholy! TI has always been my big Autumn CD, probably because of it's October release date. Any other listers care to weigh in with their seasonal or environmental associations? ken np-i must be crazy/pillbox ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 16:25:57 -0400 From: Merk54@aol.com Subject: Seasonal Joni Selections For me, Miles of Aisles is the perfect first day of spring album. Driving around in the car, with the windows down, and MOA cranked to the max - it's an annual ritual for me. I haven't listened to STAS in quite some time, so I think I will give this one a try - I would love to have a corresponding autumn ritual! Thanks for the idea, Jack ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 16:46:38 -0400 From: Jerry Notaro Subject: Re: Seasonal Joni Selections Merk54@aol.com wrote: > For me, Miles of Aisles is the perfect first day of spring album. Driving around in the car, with the windows down, and MOA cranked to the max - it's an annual ritual for me. > > I haven't listened to STAS in quite some time, so I think I will give this one a try - I would love to have a corresponding autumn ritual! Clouds is definitely an autumn album for me. Jerry np: Eva Cassidy - Who Knows Where the Times Go ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 14:24:29 -0700 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: book has the shadows & light book been discussed here? i wonder what others think of it...i'm only about half way through... i remember kakki making an observation about the innacuracy of one point (california recording studios) & i wonder if other errors have been found... i guess if we can give our opinions on joni's art, we can do it on this book, right? i like a lot of the quotes, it seems like much of the material is drawn from the jonimitchell.com website...there is a lot of great info (which is why i ask about accuracy) & often times she mentions discussions that have taken place on this list... but i find the book to be all over the place sometimes, with the author throwing in some of her own viewpoints on things which to me seems out of place...she goes off on tangents that seem irrelvant... the book is great for facts, but not very artful writing, imo...to be fair, it must be hard to write someone's bio...especially joni's seems like if a really good editor could take some time with it, this book could be greatly improved... i wonder if joni has read it... ******************************************** Kate Bennett: www.katebennett.com Sponsored by Polysonics/Atlantis Sound Labs Over the Moon- "bringing the melancholy world of twilight to life almost like magic" All Music Guide ******************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 17:06:44 -0400 From: Bob.Muller@fluor.com Subject: Seasonal Joni <> Clouds for me is very much a summer album, probably because I have enjoyed it and really "discovered" it listening to it on the beach house deck. Hissing of Summer Lawns...guess you gotta call that one a Summer one by default! :~) Bob NP: Geno Delafose & French Rockin' Boogie, "Bye Bye Mon Neg" - ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The information transmitted is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain confidential and/or privileged material. If you are not the intended recipient of this message you are hereby notified that any use, review, retransmission, dissemination, distribution, reproduction or any action taken in reliance upon this message is prohibited. If you received this in error, please contact the sender and delete the material from any computer. Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender and may not necessarily reflect the views of the company. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 18:42:58 EDT From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: book **i wonder what others think of it...i'm only about half way through...** First of all, Kate, what a creative subject line! LOL! Reminds me of the kindegarten classes where the teacher has taped signs all over everything..."door", "window", "chair", etc... But back to the matter at hand...thanks to our wooly-mammoth-hearted Uncle John*, I got S&L at the fest, read it in about 2 weeks or so (over breakfast in the morning), and enjoyed it a lot. You're right about her throwing in some personal viewpoints, BUT she's not near as bad as Brian Hinton's "Both Sides Now" bio. A couple of new facts there to be sure, but to us hard-cores not a lot that we didn't already know. And I kept dozing off in the last chapter about her painting - what would have been more interesting would have been to simultaneously trace her painting along with her music. But I shouldn't complain too much - after all, I get a mention on page 334! :~) No mention of Murphy as far as I can tell... Bob NP: Donna Binkley, "Eyes That Cannot See" you go girl! *This could be interpreted as John's heart being sized like that of a Wooly Mammoth, OR that he has a mammoth heart and is wooly. Either is correct! :~) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 21:57:44 -0400 From: Bruce Kimerer Subject: re:standards Carly Simon also released an album of standards called "My Romance." Not sure if it was before or after "Torch." Very nice album I think. Her rendition of 'Time After Time' is one of my all time favorite versions of that wonderful song. Bruce ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 18:52:58 -0700 From: "kakki" Subject: Re: book Kate, it's better that I NOT get started on the subject. A very kind and generous JMDL'er gifted me with the book (thank you again) but I had the worst irate reaction to the book on many levels, some of which you have touched on generally and much more nicely than me! Kakki NP: Bryan Thomas Band @ Pazfest - All I Want > has the shadows & light book been discussed here? > > i wonder what others think of it...i'm only about half way through... > > i remember kakki making an observation about the innacuracy of one point > (california recording studios) & i wonder if other errors have been found... > > i guess if we can give our opinions on joni's art, we can do it on this > book, right? > > i like a lot of the quotes, it seems like much of the material is drawn from > the jonimitchell.com website...there is a lot of great info (which is why i > ask about accuracy) & often times she mentions discussions that have taken > place on this list... > > but i find the book to be all over the place sometimes, with the author > throwing in some of her own viewpoints on things which to me seems out of > place...she goes off on tangents that seem irrelvant... > > the book is great for facts, but not very artful writing, imo...to be fair, > it must be hard to write someone's bio...especially joni's > > seems like if a really good editor could take some time with it, this book > could be greatly improved... > > i wonder if joni has read it... ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 21:46:41 -0500 From: "mack watson-bush" Subject: [none] where are you chatters? ------------------------------ End of onlyJMDL Digest V2002 #298 ********************************* ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she? 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