From: les@jmdl.com (onlyJMDL Digest) To: onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Subject: onlyJMDL Digest V2002 #294 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/onlyjoni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com Unsubscribe: mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe onlyJMDL Digest Tuesday, October 8 2002 Volume 2002 : Number 294 The Official Joni Mitchell Homepage, created by Wally Breese, can be found at http://www.jonimitchell.com. It contains the latest news, a detailed bio, Original Interviews, essays, lyrics and much much more. The JMDL website can be found at http://www.jmdl.com and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Today's Library Links: October 7 [ljirvin@adelphia.net] Joni only ["Laurent Olszer" ] CMIAR [Dave Cuneo ] Re: Joni only [Bob.Muller@fluor.com] WAR?? [Jennymac48@aol.com] RE: All Hands on Deck: Iraq Vote Imminent - Listen for Peace (SJC) [Clau] Tr: Joni only ["Laurent Olszer" ] Re: Tr: Joni only ["Lavieri, Vince [185776]" ] Re: All Hands on Deck: Iraq Vote Imminent - Listen for Peace(SJC) [colin] Re: Tr: Joni only [Bob.Muller@fluor.com] The 3 Great Letters [vince ] music business and Joni Mitchell ["J Harney" ] Re: CMIAR [Deb Messling ] James Taylor article in NY Times [Deb Messling ] Re: CMIAR/Number 1 [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Pazfest [FMYFL@aol.com] Re: onlyJMDL Digest V2002 #287 [StDoherty@aol.com] PC on the JMDL [Les Irvin ] Re: James Taylor article in NY Times [CoyoteRick@aol.com] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 07 Oct 2002 03:30:41 -0400 From: ljirvin@adelphia.net Subject: Today's Library Links: October 7 On October 7 the following items were published: 1974: "Time Out" - Chicago Tribune (News Item) http://www.jmdl.com/articles/docs/741007ct.cfm 2001: "Diana Krall a huge Joni Mitchell fan" - Vancouver Province (Appreciation) http://www.jmdl.com/articles/docs/011007vp.cfm - -------- Can you type? http://www.jmdl.com/typing/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2002 15:34:25 +0100 From: "Laurent Olszer" Subject: Joni only > From: "Sarah Cartwright" > Subject: jonionly - me again > > reading all of your posts, i still feel like a complete novice joniphile > - i would be really interested in what anyone thinks the next joni album > i should add to the collection should be - so far , it consists of LOTC, > blue, THOSL, and hejira. oh, and clouds, but i can't get into that one > too well for some reason. > Hi Sarah, Telling you which are my personal favorites is meaningless to you since you don't know my tastes. So instead I'll attempt another classification method. The great thing about Joni is that she changes style on each album. Very few artist do that. The only other one that comes to mind is Neil Young from whom you never know what to expect either. So, my personal "labeling" system (I can already hear the screams from beyond the web) is: * Up to Blue it's folk (LOTC, Clouds, FTR, etc) * Blue (which you have) is the purest, voice and style-wise. * C&S is the most mainstream/easy access * DJRD: she ventures into classical * Hejira: creative climax (after HOSL) * Mingus: she ventures into jazz * WTRF: she is in love (just got married) * S&L: live with material from Mingus, Hejira, fabulous. * DED: she's angry + ventures into (somewhat hard) rock * CMIAR, NRH: most commercial ones (duo w/ Peter Gabriel, etc), not as creative as previous ones. * TI & TTT creative juices are back, closer to Hejira in style. * BSN: 40's jazz tunes + her older folk songs revisited w/ symphonic orchestra Hope this is any help. So buy the one that suits your mood today. Makes no difference: if you believe she's the queen then you'll end up with all of them anyway. Laurent ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2002 09:40:23 -0400 From: Dave Cuneo Subject: CMIAR Ciao joniphiles, Someone wrote: "At the bottom of the heap is CMIAR. This is terrible, in my opinion, and not worth the money I spent on it." For me, CMIAR is an uneven album, however I think it contains two of Joni's greatest and most brilliant songs, "Number One" and "The Beat of Black Wings". The only thing that keeps "Beat" from perfection is that chorus "Johnny Angel". If Joni had dropped that it would be perfect. I also like "Tea Leaf Prophecy" and "A Bird that Whistles". "My Secret Place" is also good. The rest I skip over when they come up. Dave. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2002 10:01:36 -0400 From: Bob.Muller@fluor.com Subject: Re: Joni only <> No screaming here, Laurent...I always find this sort of exercise interesting. I'll add a comment or two: <<* Up to Blue it's folk (LOTC, Clouds, FTR, etc)>> Joni would of course beat you over the head with an ugly stick to hear you call her early work "folk". I don't necessarily disagree, but I'll say that FTR comes AFTER Blue, and I say that not to nit-pick but rather to distinguish it from that group. FTR is a definite bridge between the 'solitary' Joni (often playing and singing unaccompanied) of the first records and the 'collaborative' Joni where she would find other players who could fill out her musical pallette with other colors. FTR retains the confessionalism of Blue while musically paving the way for the "lite-jazz" feel of C&S. <<* DJRD: she ventures into classical>> I'd love to hear you expand on this...while she expands the 'symphonic' compositional style of "Judgement" & "Down To You", DJRD is also a further exploration of world music and giving her supporting players more freedoms to take the music to new places. Really difficult to break this one down into a brief phrase... <<* Mingus: she ventures into jazz>> I would say she did this initially with HOSL, Mingus is where she dives full in to the jazz mode without looking back or regret. Additionally, I would add Miles of Aisles as the exclamation mark ending her "singer/songwriter" period and beginning her "composer" period. Also puts new spins on some of her older songs on her first live record, showing that she's more interested in moving forward than being a time capsule. And I wouldn't lump NRH in with CMIAR...to me there's a definite line of demarcation between the false commercial attempt of CMIAR and her return to roots songwriting in NRH. Bob NP: Ben Harper, "Strawberry Fields Forever" - ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The information transmitted is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain confidential and/or privileged material. If you are not the intended recipient of this message you are hereby notified that any use, review, retransmission, dissemination, distribution, reproduction or any action taken in reliance upon this message is prohibited. If you received this in error, please contact the sender and delete the material from any computer. Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender and may not necessarily reflect the views of the company. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2002 10:30:07 EDT From: Jennymac48@aol.com Subject: WAR?? Excuse me, but could you all go somewhere else and talk about this war shit? I didn't sign up to the JONI ONLY DISCUSSION LIST to read this crap! Pisses me off big time! ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 07 Oct 2002 14:12:06 -0400 From: Claud9 Subject: RE: All Hands on Deck: Iraq Vote Imminent - Listen for Peace (SJC) It is my observation that some find war as a solution to conflict much more promising and easier to envision than peace. It saddens me immensely, because war means suffering to all involved those who want the war and those who don't. The guilty and the innocent. Being from Germany, I having close ties to a recent history full of blood shed, evil, sheer stupidity, suffering and destruction. My grandmother's life was directly affected by two wars, (as was my mother's, as was mine) I remember her stories. In my mind, war has just always been a bad idea all the way around. War divides. War makes us choose sides. Each side is convinced of its cause, convinced by the "rightness" of its cause. As "average" people, we never have all the information, the oversight over all the players involved, all the hidden agendas, the strategies, the ripple effects, the consequences in history. It is human nature and conditioning to categorise into good and bad. Every "right" needs a "wrong" to define itself. (Joni's Borderline springs to mind. "Every bristling shaft of pride, church or nation, team or tribe. Every notion we subscribe to is just a borderline. Good or bad we think we know, as if thinking makes things so! All convictions grow along a borderline") When it comes to politics, I try to remember that my knowledge is limited. Being convinced of rightness requires being convinced that the available knowledge is basis enough for feeling right about something, or that the interpretation of that knowledge is correct, etc.... This is just far too slippery for me when it comes to the complexities of politics and basically irrelevant to my believes which guide me through this maze. Some of those believes are: the destruction of human life needs to be avoided at all times. Pursuing peace is worthy of my energy and support, war is not. And thirdly, I try to remember to speak from my heart for what I truly want, not what I believe is "achievable" or "factually right". In this case, with a renewed threat of war at our doorsteps, what I can and want to support are the efforts for a peaceful resolution and of building a world community that prefers peace over war and will choose accordingly. It is the only approach to peace worth striving for. Yes, sometimes peace needs to be enforced, because of those who do not believe in those values and threaten to destroy others, but the solutions of enforcement sought can - as our first priority- be peaceful, as our second priority- be defensive. Only as a measure of last defence, with the approval of the world community, should war even be considered as an option of defence. In the case of Bush, I hear him speak of wanting to secure peace while rushing to pursue it with war -- without the support of the world community. To me, this approach seems flawed , dangerous and righteous on a very basic level. It goes against what I can support. I believe that in conflict situations, be it personal or global, communication is the key. We must be willing to listen to one another. Listening without giving up listening as soon as we hear something that we don't understand, or dislike, or don't want to hear. We need to want to understand how we hurt one another in order to stop doing so. Compassion for the suffering of others can and must lead the way. Only then can we hope to understand the actions of others and find a way to stop the cycle of violence and suffering. I did not mean to make a political statement "against" others when I posted the information about the "Listen for Peace" proposal and the 800 number to the Capitol. I simply wanted to share the information with those who might feel the same. I was prepared for some comments. Of course those aligned with my own felt good, those opposed felt uncomfortable. But I was glad for the communication that followed. It helps grow an understanding of opinions and positions. We all have valuable insights to contribute. The JMDL community is a safe place to share and be different. Let's continue to do so in kindness, with compassion, and without judgement. Peace, Claudia ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2002 20:20:48 +0100 From: "Laurent Olszer" Subject: Tr: Joni only > < beyond the web) is:>> > > No screaming here, Laurent...I always find this sort of exercise > interesting. I'll add a comment or two: > > <<* Up to Blue it's folk (LOTC, Clouds, FTR, etc)>> > > Joni would of course beat you over the head with an ugly stick to hear you > call her early work "folk". I don't necessarily disagree, but I'll say that > FTR comes AFTER Blue, and I say that not to nit-pick but rather to > distinguish it from that group. FTR is a definite bridge between the > 'solitary' Joni (often playing and singing unaccompanied) of the first > records and the 'collaborative' Joni where she would find other players who > could fill out her musical pallette with other colors. FTR retains the > confessionalism of Blue while musically paving the way for the "lite-jazz" > feel of C&S. > MY MISTAKE, MEA CULPA; ALTHOUGH FOR ME FTR DOES NOT HAVE THE STRENGTH OF BLUE, SO I TEND TO LUMP IT WITH THE 1ST PERIOD. > <<* DJRD: she ventures into classical>> > > I'd love to hear you expand on this...while she expands the 'symphonic' > compositional style of "Judgement" & "Down To You", DJRD is also a further > exploration of world music and giving her supporting players more freedoms > to take the music to new places. Really difficult to break this one down > into a brief phrase... > OF COURSE YOU'RE RIGHT ABOUT THE WORLD ASPECT, MAYBE EVEN SOME JAZZ TOO. BUT FOR SOMEONE WHO LISTENS TO IT FOR THE 1ST TIME THE REALLY STRIKINGLY DIFFERENT PIECE IS THE CLASSICAL PAPRIKA PLAINS. WHICH WHEN I FIRST GOT THE ALBUM IN 77 FILLED UP A COMPLETE VINYL SIDE. > <<* Mingus: she ventures into jazz>> > > I would say she did this initially with HOSL, Mingus is where she dives > full in to the jazz mode without looking back or regret. > A MASTERPIECE IN ITS OWN RIGHT. ALSO THE KEY ALBUM WHICH "EXCOMMUNICATED" HER FROM THE FOLK ROCK AND THE JAZZ COMMUNITY. BRAVE AND SINCERE MOVE. ALWAYS LOVED IT. > Additionally, I would add Miles of Aisles as the exclamation mark ending > her "singer/songwriter" period and beginning her "composer" period. Also > puts new spins on some of her older songs on her first live record, showing > that she's more interested in moving forward than being a time capsule. > > And I wouldn't lump NRH in with CMIAR...to me there's a definite line of > demarcation between the false commercial attempt of CMIAR and her return to > roots songwriting in NRH. > TRUE, ALTHOUGH I STILL FEEL SHE DID A BETTER JOB AT SONGWRITING WITH THE FOLLOWING 2 ALBUMS. THANKS FOR YOUR COMMENTS BOB, MINE WAS A ROUGH SKETCH DURING LUNCH BREAK, NO MORE. Laurent ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 07 Oct 2002 15:01:18 -0400 From: "Lavieri, Vince [185776]" Subject: Re: Tr: Joni only Laurent said: FOR ME FTR DOES NOT HAVE THE STRENGTH OF BLUE, SO I TEND TO LUMP IT WITH THE 1ST PERIOD Well, I never thought that I would see someone actually post what is my exact opinion too - I have been too afraid of the FTR lovers hunting me down like a varmint and beating me to death and leaving rose petals on my dead corpse. Especially when I add that FTR didn't make much of an impression on me at all when it came out (I love it now!) because Blue was so strong. I suppose how ever present Blue is in m y mind and regards was tipped off when I won the Covers contest (finally!!!!) with my Blue/Blue guess - although truth be known, in football season, I always have the University of Michigan (as in M! Go Blue!) on my mind and that is perhaps why my Covers guess was Blue/Blue. Vince NPIMH: Let's Go Blue! Laurent: Harvest Moon was so perfect at the wedding reception - harvest time is just beginning here too and no song could have been more perfect in every way and I will always be indebted to you for your musical assist! ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 07 Oct 2002 21:10:00 +0100 From: colin Subject: Re: All Hands on Deck: Iraq Vote Imminent - Listen for Peace(SJC) Claudia-a wonderful, open and honest post. thank you. you are not alone in your way of thinking. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2002 15:56:51 -0400 From: Bob.Muller@fluor.com Subject: Re: Tr: Joni only <> That's a good point - PP is definitely in a class by itself. It was more than I could digest for a LONG time. Very intense & beautiful & lots of other things. <> No argument from me on that, at least with TI. TTT is comparable with NRH for me - when it's good it's very very good, and when it's not it's horrid. <> I liked your post a lot...some nice points to build on. Nothing wrong with submitting a rough sketch and letting other folks fine-tune it and/or add thoughts. That's the purpose of this list, I think. But why do you feel that YOU HAVE TO SHOUT? I CAN HEAR YOU JUST FINE! ;~) Bob NP: Billy Preston, "Outaspace" (makes me feel like shaking my boo-tay!) - ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The information transmitted is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain confidential and/or privileged material. If you are not the intended recipient of this message you are hereby notified that any use, review, retransmission, dissemination, distribution, reproduction or any action taken in reliance upon this message is prohibited. If you received this in error, please contact the sender and delete the material from any computer. Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender and may not necessarily reflect the views of the company. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 07 Oct 2002 16:48:12 -0400 From: vince Subject: The 3 Great Letters I am sending this to everyone so the Joni-only people know we care: please, please everyone, with all that is going on, remember the 3 Great Letters: NJC - in every post title/subject unless it really is something the Joni Onlys want to read - with the speech tonight and whatever happens next there will be a flood of posts I am sure, and debate, and all that, and that is good, we are a family, of course we talk about everything, but we must respect the Joni Onlys. If there is ****any**** doubt, make it NJC. Peace-making includes respecting everyone. Vince ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 07 Oct 2002 21:27:43 +0000 From: "J Harney" Subject: music business and Joni Mitchell The November '02 issue of Vanity Fair magazine is "The Music Issue" that contains a long-ish article ("Who Killed the Hit Machine" by Nick Tosches) about Warner Bros. Records, including some maneuvers to steer Joni Mitchell into the mainstream. I was disappointed that there wasn't more about her--mostly the article focuses on Mo Estin and Joe Smith. Also in the November issue of VF: memorable outdoor portraits of James Taylor (with his tiny twin sons), and Cassandra Wilson. Both shots happen to have the artists soaking wet. JH _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 07 Oct 2002 18:13:39 -0400 From: Deb Messling Subject: Re: CMIAR Gee, I've always put Number One on my Worst list. What do you like about it? I'm not baiting you, I'm genuinely interested. At 09:40 AM 10/7/02 -0400, you wrote: > For me, CMIAR is an uneven album, however I think it contains two of >Joni's greatest and most brilliant songs, "Number One" and "The Beat of >Black Wings". - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Deb Messling -^..^- messling@enter.net - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- - --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.394 / Virus Database: 224 - Release Date: 10/3/02 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 07 Oct 2002 18:20:56 -0400 From: Deb Messling Subject: James Taylor article in NY Times The Sunday Times had an article, "James Taylor Teams Muse with Marketer" about his (and his record company's) successful effort to promote his new album. What is he doing that Joni's not doing? Why is it working for him? The article is available at http://www.nytimes.com/2002/10/06/arts/music/06DECU.html I think you have to register to view it, but I'm not sure. - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Deb Messling -^..^- messling@enter.net - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- - --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.394 / Virus Database: 224 - Release Date: 10/3/02 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2002 21:56:05 EDT From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: CMIAR/Number 1 **Gee, I've always put Number One on my Worst list. What do you like about it? I'm not baiting you, I'm genuinely interested.** I'm pretty much with Dave...I would put Beat of BW as the best track on CMIAR, with #1 not far behind. I know your question was for Dave, and he can certainly respond as well. I like what the song says lyrically, even though it's not up to Joni's literate standard. "Oh there must be more to living Than a mortgage and a lawn to mow" This echoes in my head EVERY time I mow the lawn! Musically, it's OK too, I like the pulse of it. It would not be a contender on most of her other records, but on CMIAR it stands out among all the "Number 2's" :~) Bob ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2002 22:10:28 EDT From: FMYFL@aol.com Subject: Pazfest After a wonderful vacation, I've returned home to the Pazfest "Tribute to Joni". I haven't seen any posts since I left, but I'm sure the folks who have received this CD have already posted. Michael, thank you so much for making this wonderful tribute possible. I listened to the CD's of Joni's music all day while unpacking. It brought back that wonderful time when I was at the Howling Wolf listening to all the incredible performers singing Joni's tunes. Glad to be back, and I think I missed that wonderful man Les Ross' birthday. So Happy Birthday Les (and any others I didn't know about) I missed you people! xoxo Jimmy ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2002 22:47:53 EDT From: StDoherty@aol.com Subject: Re: onlyJMDL Digest V2002 #287 Has anyone heard anything about Browne's Naked Ride Home? There's gotta be a connection here! ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 07 Oct 2002 21:17:06 -0600 From: Les Irvin Subject: PC on the JMDL Joniphiles - Hi folks. Time for one of my reminder messages. A few points pulled from the introductory letter you received when you subscribed: - ------------------ LIST ETIQUETTE: 1) ALWAYS USE "NJC" IF APPLICABLE!!!!! (I sit on the fence on tonight's debate about ultra-strict adherence to this, but think that 99% of the time is about right.) 4) Tolerance, tolerance, tolerance 5) Don't throw "crumbs": People sometimes tend to use the discussion list as a chat room. By this, we mean that they will post a simple "Me too!" or "I agree" in response to someone else's post - and that's it. (There is a chat room here: http://www.jmdl.com/chat.cfm) 6) Post from within the ballpark: ...the JMDL is an unmoderated discussion of anything and everything related to the "life, art, music, and times of Joni Mitchell". We don't always talk about Joni but we try to "stay in the ballpark". - ----------------- I enjoy observing the political debates here but am troubled by the sheer force with which they tend to suddenly dominate the list. I'm offering a *suggestion* for the political debates. How about taking them elsewhere once they reach that fevered pitch? I've set up a JMDL-PC list at Yahoo. It would be great if a responsible debater could suggest that the discussion be moved there when it "reaches that point". Sign up is quick and immediate, by sending a message to "JMDLPC-subscribe@yahoogroups.com". You'll be subbed faster than you can get your boxing gloves laced up. Post messages to that list by sending them here: JMDLPC@yahoogroups.com Again, this is just a suggestion... I'm open for comments. Thanks for listening, Les ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2002 00:00:24 EDT From: CoyoteRick@aol.com Subject: Re: James Taylor article in NY Times Hi Deb and everyone else, too: I was so woefully behind on my JM email (800+ posts and I am JM only!) and decided tonight to delete everything until today's and was glad I didn't delete yours. I had EXACTLY the same thought when I read the article in the NY Times on Sunday. I've had October Road in my car CD player for the last six weeks or so having liked what I heard him do at the Hollywood Bowl on the 4th of July. Tonight, ironically, I thought of JT and his success of late vis-a-vis that of JM and her later efforts. Then I read your email. I think it may be due to their individual commercialism. Over the years, one could reasonably argue JT has been a bigger commercial success than JM. To me, this translates to a much larger core fan base willing to buy JT singing the phone book if that's what is available. Just like I would do with JM. Accordingly, when the record company puts forth a successful marketing effort, they pull in the core group as well as the "newcomers" or those that perhaps abandoned JT when he "lost his glitter." In short, I think success of the campaign is strictly dependent upon the marketability of the artist. I doubt an equally effective campaign would have garnered JM the same results as JT. We, among the informed, know of JM's gifts and contributions. But as we all have admitted from time to time, we are in the minority -- even among our own social/familial circles. There's a high hurdle for the marketer to clear from the start. No regrets, Coyote Rick Casa Alegre Hollywood, California "Only fools are afraid to be burned by fire..." ------------------------------ End of onlyJMDL Digest V2002 #294 ********************************* ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she? (http://www.siquomb.com/siquomb.cfm)