From: les@jmdl.com (onlyJMDL Digest) To: onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Subject: onlyJMDL Digest V2002 #270 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/onlyjoni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com Unsubscribe: mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe onlyJMDL Digest Tuesday, September 17 2002 Volume 2002 : Number 270 The Official Joni Mitchell Homepage, created by Wally Breese, can be found at http://www.jonimitchell.com. It contains the latest news, a detailed bio, Original Interviews, essays, lyrics and much much more. The JMDL website can be found at http://www.jmdl.com and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Today's Library Links: September 16 [ljirvin@adelphia.net] Today in History: September 16 [ljirvin@adelphia.net] Re: De-railed? [colin ] Fey Presto! [Gordon Mackie ] call the white house, place your vote (Re: war) [] Re: fay and DJRD ["Kate Bennett" ] De-railed? ["Kate Bennett" ] Re: De-railed? [Bob.Muller@fluor.com] Past Shadows and Lights ["brian symes" ] bits and pieces ["Amelio Alamo" ] "MINGUS", reviewed in downbeat magazine, part 2 of 2, 100% JC ["Jim L'Hom] "MINGUS", reviewed in downbeat magazine, part 1 of 2, 100% JC ["Jim L'Hom] MINGUS: my two cents, 100% JC ["Jim L'Hommedieu" ] Rich and fay/fey/ofay [Catherine McKay ] RE: Rich and fay/fey/ofay ["Heather" ] Re: Rich and fay/fey/ofay ["Jim L'Hommedieu" ] RE: Rich and fay/fey/ofay, pun alert! ["Jim L'Hommedieu" ] Re: Bush bashing and snide remarks - SJC [Bobsart48@aol.com] Re: Twisted Chalkmark [Bobsart48@aol.com] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 03:09:48 -0400 From: ljirvin@adelphia.net Subject: Today's Library Links: September 16 On September 16 the following item was published: 1997: "Song takes writer to Joni Mitchell's old Detroit apartment " - Detroit News (Appreciation) http://www.jmdl.com/articles/docs/970916dn.cfm ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 03:09:48 -0400 From: ljirvin@adelphia.net Subject: Today in History: September 16 1979: Joni performed at the Greek Theatre in Los Angeles, California. The tapes from the 5-night string of performances were edited and released as the "Shadows and Light" album. 1987: Joni attended a Prince concert - ---- For a comprehensive reference to Joni's appearances, consult Joni Mitchell ~ A Chronology of Appearances: http://www.jonimitchell.com/appearances.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 08:26:41 +0100 From: colin Subject: Re: De-railed? > I just can't believe that she would let anyone influence her to the point of lowering the quality of her music. i don't know the answer to the question. I can imagine Joni being really annoyed if Dolby tried to take over. I also understand that when people are in love, they can act out of character. If she isn't happy with DED, IF, it is quite possible she concvinced herself at the time that she was happy with it because she was in love and later, when she had come off that high, ws able to see more clearly and wished she hadn't done it the way she did it. Personally, I am a DED fan so am happy with the way it is. > > > Mark E. in Seattle - -- bw colin DAK,BRO GC, 950i, 940,860,864,890, 260,Silver 830,860, 580 and 270, Passap 6000, Duo80,Creation 6 colin@tantra-apso.com http://www.tantra-apso.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 11:46:42 +0100 From: Gordon Mackie Subject: Fey Presto! More nonsense from me !... The wonderful film "Torch Song Trilogy' which is the semi-autobiographical story of the life of Harvey Firestein (tho wasn't he awful in Independence Day as the man who minced to death at the hands of the aliens) . In it, he plays a drag queen who has performed under a number of 'handles' including Anita Man, Virginia Ham, Bang Bangladesh and ......Fay Ways....now,that suggests to me something more than lightweight... it suggests something dangerous but excitingly immoral. Kinda like the word gay was used in 19th century London as a 'catch all' to describe activity of a sexual nature ( not limited to same sex) which was loose and free (free as in 'carefree' not as in 'not paid for') . er my brain hurts now. I'm not sure quite what I'm getting at here at all but 'sexual flightiness' is in my head somewhere. ..and whatever happenned to Fay Wray...cue for a song.... Gordon PS Fay ( with an 'a') Presto is the 'handle' of a British transexual conjurer/magician ...so clearly he/she understands the ambiguity of the word/name too. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 09:02:09 -0400 (EDT) From: Subject: call the white house, place your vote (Re: war) call the white house 202-456-1111 (9-5pm) place your vote re: war on iraq, "I oppose the war" (...or "I support the war" ): please, please... call today and forward this to friends and family. love, rose (i'm new to the joni list) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 10:19:55 -0700 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: Re: fay and DJRD bob s wrote "I Love your stories about your turning your son onto JM via Duritz - thank you so much for sharing them. I have hopes for my own daughter, who professes disdain, but is showing signs of coming around a bit" i love these stories too & have a small one to add...i've been playing hejira in my car lately & gave a ride to my son the other day ... he's a skateboarder so i told him i wanted to play him a song (strange boy)... he listened & said he thought it was really good & i told him it was written before he was born & he said, i thought so because she is talking about those big banana boards (yellow skateboard)that used to be popular... he's not converted by any means but at least he's open! ******************************************** Kate Bennett: www.katebennett.com Sponsored by Polysonics/Atlantis Sound Labs Over the Moon- "bringing the melancholy world of twilight to life almost like magic" All Music Guide ******************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 10:19:57 -0700 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: De-railed? bob s wrote "I wonder what direction she would have chosen on her own." we can only guess but here is some pure conjecture from a songwriters perspective: i think many songwriters have more songs going on than the ones they actually record at the time for a record...these songs may be still in progress or may not be the right fit with others on the record or there may just not be enough room for them...i remember reading that joni said she didn't get paid by the record company for more than 10 songs per record so she kept it at that number...anyway what i am saying is that these songs of hers would eventually find their way to another record so i doubt joni would get 'derailed'... however, whenever i see a bunch of guest artists on someone's record who happen to be top of the charts at the moment, i always see this as an influence of someone who wants the record to be a commercial success (don't know who that is in this case- the artist, the record company, or the producer or all three)...it would make sense that they would get caught up in this idea since so many of her fans feel away from her when mingus was released...after all that is the job of the record company- to be sure the artist sells records... as far as david crosby being the producer of her first record ... i was just reading an interview with joni about this...she says he was not the producer, that she was & has always been producer of her records...but that crosby offered to call himself producer so that the record company would leave her material alone ... (my paraphrase) ******************************************** Kate Bennett: www.katebennett.com Sponsored by Polysonics/Atlantis Sound Labs Over the Moon- "bringing the melancholy world of twilight to life almost like magic" All Music Guide ******************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 13:24:55 -0400 From: Bob.Muller@fluor.com Subject: Re: De-railed? <> True, and sometimes it even works! Santana's "Supernatural" was awesome, and he has another one about to unleash. In Carlos' case it's a little different because he's never done his vocals. So to bring in guest vocalists seems less contrived than what Joni did on CMIARS. Although some of them worked OK, I couldn't help but feel manipulated: Peter Gabriel & Don Henley: To go for the adult contemporary audience Billy Idol/Steve Stevens & Tom Petty: To go for the younger, more hard rock audience Willie Nelson: To go for the country audience Iron Eyes Cody: To go for the Native AMerican audience (OK, just joking with that one!) Anyway, like I say, some of these tracks work OK but even when they work I feel like they were being exploited. And I know that the stories are there that is was JUST COINCIDENCE that these artists (all of whom were very popular at the time (and that's not even mentioning Benjamin Orr & Wendy/Lisa) happened to be "hanging around" or whatever. I don't believe it for a second, or even assuming it IS true, SOMEBODY working these sessions should have been able to tell that the chemistry just wasn't working in some (not all) cases. To contrast, Cheech & Chong fit in brilliantly on "Twisted", there's nothing on CMIARS that sounds that good. Bob NP: Lucinda Williams, "Broken Butterflies" - ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The information transmitted is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain confidential and/or privileged material. If you are not the intended recipient of this message you are hereby notified that any use, review, retransmission, dissemination, distribution, reproduction or any action taken in reliance upon this message is prohibited. If you received this in error, please contact the sender and delete the material from any computer. Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender and may not necessarily reflect the views of the company. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 15:58:23 -0500 From: "brian symes" Subject: Past Shadows and Lights For the lister who does not listen to the later Joni, I must inform you that you cannot see Joni from both sides. To really know her you must follow her thru her life as more than just a high voice in the upstairs choir. Please go and purchase the CD's listed and learn to love her work in the Turbulent 80's/90's. WTRF,"Chinese Cafe" sits me down in old diner back in Detroit with my Dad's 57 DeSoto out front, Listen to "Man to Man" and Finally "Love" Her voice still sounds the same as back on Hejira. DED "Impossible Dreamer" she is pushing the popular song formula, "Lucky Girl" is a little jewel that ends smiling like a good ending to a Love story. CMINAR" My Secret Place" is like a western movie, I wish some screenwriter would use this song as a plot for one, and "Dancin Clown' Joni must have had fun recording that one. NRH the Title song Is one of my favorites. It takes me back to driving home every summer thru the Ontario farm land rolling and disapearing in the evening haze with those crickets in a continuous symphony, not to mention "The Only Joy in Town" and "Cherroke Louise" which are incredible songs. Brian, JM fan from 67 till whenever my canvas unrolls to the end. NP Jonatha Brooke, At the Still Point - -- __________________________________________________________ Sign-up for your own FREE Personalized E-mail at Mail.com http://www.mail.com/?sr=signup ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 22:44:46 +0100 From: "Amelio Alamo" Subject: bits and pieces Wow lot's been going on lateley. Just been trying to find the time... Yes, Chris Marshall very kindly sent me a CDR of the 'Hissing demos' too. Wow very good. Can't stop listening. 'Harry's House' really works well just on acoustic guitar. 'Dreamland' is very different and I like it. Really really like 'In France...', sounds less pop. Thanks again Chris, so nice of you. Since everyone has something to say about Clinton or Bush thought I'd better give my say. I'n not American but since what ever America do now might effect the UK I think I have the right. I'll keep it short! I thought Clinton was a good president and whatever he did in his personal life was nobody's business but his unless it was illegal or something. When he was in power everything seemed to go along quite nicely. Now, that Bush! I wouldn't trust any politician as far as I could... but he really does seem quite fake. I heard somewhere that in his home state he put more people to death than any senator! Yeah I think he is going to take things too far. Those are my thoughts anyway and I think everyone is entitled to free speech. Okay about Joni's later albums (80's to BSN). Like some of WTRF especially 'Chinese Cafe...', 'Moon At The Window' and 'Love...'. DED; the title track,'Impossible Dreamer' and 'Smokin' are okay but the album as a whole really isn't up to Joni standards in my books. Mmm, CMIRS; Don't mind 'The Beat Of...' and 'Reocuring Dream' and I really like her version 'Corina Corina'. No synth yay. The rest though hurts my ears. Love most of NRH. TI I think is one of her best. TTT is very original but I think her voice lets it down for the first time. BSN...just can't listen to it. I think as a whole though it's not as consistent as her 60's and 70's stuff but yeah you do need it to complete the picture 'cost there are some really good songs here. Just my view anyway. I'm sure there is more I wanted to say but I Can't remember! I'm new to the list but I wish Anne all the best. STEVE T. _________________________________________________________________ Join the worlds largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 16:24:44 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jim L'Hommedieu" Subject: "MINGUS", reviewed in downbeat magazine, part 2 of 2, 100% JC There should be no question that Joni Mitchell can perform as a credible, and here excellent, jazz singer. Her version of Annie Ross' "Twisted" some years back was presentiment: Joni is the closest thing we have in the '70s to the rangy, pristine tone and cool distance Ross embodied. Listen to the big band-backed "Dry Cleaner;" it's really Joni's "Farmers' Market," right down to the invitingly hip lyrics she's spun on a tiny, nonsensical topic. (The song follows a vignette of Mingus saying, "I'm not rich, but I always had a few coins in my pocket." It's about a small businessman from Iowa on a hot streak in Vegas, and in perfect Ross style, Joni sings, "He's got three oranges, three lemons, three plums-I'm losin' my taste for fruit.") On "Porkpie Hat" she caresses the ballad with a gentle reminder of Billie Holiday: that sweetly plummeting glissando Lady Day often used, like her voice was falling off a hill. Joni has taken brilliant bits of phrasing from these women, but mostly retains her own unique style, and the combination is devastating. I suppose my complaints center on the first side, which is somber, if not really depressing. After a boozy "Happy Birthday" comes the Joni-Jaco duet of "Boogie Man," which suffers some from the bass guitarist's picturesque, but by now well-worn explosions of harmonics. After that, a backstage tape of Mingus discussing his own funeral, and the difficult "Chair In The Sky": difficult because of the freely episodic melody, but worth the effort. (This was reportedly Mingus' last composition, and it deserves full orchestration.) There is a bit too much melodrama here, a touch that is perhaps too heavy. It bogs a bit, though it offers important music and sentiment. But the second side is perfect. "Sweet Sucker Dance" is a love song to life: "We move in measures/Through love's changing faces like it was only a dance." "Dry Cleaner" has so much zest and fun and it's a perfect set-up for "Porkpie Hat," the masterpiece. Joni's lyrics, quite frankly, are profound: in the first five words, she manages to weave the song's original subject (Lester Young) and its composer into an epic framework of great emotional power: == "When Charlie speaks of Lester You know someone great has gone The sweetest swinging music man Had a Porky Pig hat on A bright star in a dark age When the bandstands had a thousand ways of Refusing A black man Admission. Black musicians In those days they put him in an underdog position. Cellars and chitlins..." == After a fascinating mid-section development of both melody and words, she weighs in with this: "We came up from the subway/ On the music midnight makes/To Charlie's bass and Lester's saxophone/In taxi horns and brakes / Now Charlie's down in Mexico/ With the healers...." This is the poetry Joni Mitchell has been away from too long. In a way, what Mingus did for Lester in writing that song, Joni has done for Mingus in making this album. She gave her best on this one, and it's proved to be more than enough. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Lama, having lit the fuse, steps back to watch the fireworks. Yahoo! News - Today's headlines http://news.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 16:23:17 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jim L'Hommedieu" Subject: "MINGUS", reviewed in downbeat magazine, part 1 of 2, 100% JC Damn it! I'm gonna set the record straight on "MINGUS" once and for all!! The legendary jazz magazine, 'downbeat', published a review of Joni's "MINGUS" on 8/9/1979. Out of a possible high score of five stars, Leonard Feather gave it... (wait for it).... 5 stars. That bears repeating. downbeat gave it 5/5. Rather than believe Joni, let's refresh our memories, class. Please read the article silently, as I read it aloud. Leonard Feather said, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> This is a wonderful piece of work. From all reports, the trepidation in Joni Mitchell's heart as to how this project might be accepted has been matched only by the skepticism of scores of jazz purists. But the proof is here, and Joni and her critics can forget their fears. Mingus is so ambitious, so painstakingly constructed and so special, that even in those moments when the deed fails, the thought carries the day. And when it all clicks as on "Porkpie Hat", which, after three hearings, I can no longer listen to dry-eyed--it soars with the breadth and majesty Mingus so often achieved. Perhaps the ultimate crossover concept- one of rock/folk/pop's most revered women dedicating a document to one of jazz's true geniuses- MINGUS is really a collaboration. On four of the songs, the late bassist supplied the music and Joni wrote the lyrics; her words for the improvisatory, often non-strophic melodies make this the first real advance in the jazz art of vocalese since Lambert, Hendricks & Ross. For "God Must Be A Boogie Man," Joni wrote the music but adapted the lyrics from the famous first chapter of Mingus' autobiography, finding the hidden rhymes in his colorful prose ("He is three -one's in the middle unmoved/ Waiting to show what he sees to the other two"), The only song that sounds out of place is "Wolf", a not untypical Mitchell tale of a young man with darkness in his soul. But even this gains some validity from the fact that Mingus heard it and approved its sentiments before its inclusion on the album. The subject probably shouldn't come up, but for the record, this IS a jazz date. The particulars have precedent. For instance, it has long been jazz practice for a soloist to hire a working unit as sidemen, but to omit the leader (to solidify the soloist's own leadership); on MINGUS, Joni is backed, essentially, by Weather Report without its leader, Joe Zawinul. More important, on the more conventional tunes that make up the second side, the band follows normal jazz style, wherein the improvised accompaniment makes the melody's outlines blurry and subtle. The spare format gives a clear view of Hancock's empathic backing. There is also innovation. The lead instrument on most tracks, besides Joni's voice, is Pastorius' bass, mixed high and booming along as a supple, full-bodied counterpoint-much the role usually taken by a horn. (By contrast, Hancock is mixed at middle depth and Shorter, despite a coy, coltish solo on "Dry Cleaner," offers small/effective moans as if from another studio.) Yahoo! News - Today's headlines http://news.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 16:42:34 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jim L'Hommedieu" Subject: MINGUS: my two cents, 100% JC Okay, a few things popped up while I was proof-reading the downbeat review. One. When I played the "SHADOWS AND LIGHT" video version of "Dry Cleaner From Des Moines" for my father, he said, "Hey! It's 'Farmer's Market'!" Indeed. As I read Leonard saying the same thing, I felt the hairs on the back of my neck go wacky and my eyes started filling up. Yeah. What he said. Not bad for a "folky chick with a 6-string". Two. This article is not on jmdl yet. I found it at http://www.jonimitchell.com/downbeat79.html Three: The Personnel is: Mitchell, guitar and vocals; Jaco Pastorius, bass guitar; Herbie Hancock, electric piano; Wayne Shorter, soprano sax; Peter Erskine, drums; Don Alias, congas, percussion; Emil Richards, percussion; unidentified horns. arranged by Pastorius (cut 9). I had forgotten that Peter Erskine went that far back with our heroine. If you swap Brian in for Don and Larry in for Jaco, it looks like a very familiar lineup, eh? And a lineup that we will soon hear anew very shortly indeed! Four. Joni has been telling anyone who will listen, for decades now, that her fans didn't like MINGUS and the Jazz community didn't like MINGUS. Bullshit. Leonard Feather said, >>>>>>> ..... Her words for the improvisatory, often non-strophic melodies make this the first real advance in the jazz art of vocalese since Lambert, Hendricks & Ross." >>>>>>> That's my opinion. And the opinion of downbeat magazine. Isn't it a shame that NO ONE LIKED THIS ALBUM!?!?!?!? CAN WE PLEASE STOP LISTENING TO JONI ON THIS TOPIC?!?!?!? Yahoo! News - Today's headlines http://news.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 20:08:51 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Rich and fay/fey/ofay W.C. Handy, I'm rich and I'm fey... If anyone can stand any more on this subject! I checked all three words in the dictionaries we have at work, i.e., the Concise Oxford dictionary, 10th edition and the Canadian Oxford Dictionary, as well as Martindale's on the web - this is heaven for word-freaks, as it gives you all kinds of resources, not just on words but on anything! Fay - (noun) fairy (origin Middle English, from Old French, fae, faie from Latin fata, the Fates (N.B. the French word for fairy is "fee, avec un accent aigu sur le e, pronounced "fay" - or is it "fey"? C'est la meme chose!) Bartleby's - got there via martindale's - now there's a place to go if you wanna look stuff up! One thing leads to another and much time can be wasted (wasted?) looking things up. (P.S., I did this at work heh-heh-heh.) http://www-sci.lib.uci.edu/~martindale/Ref.html then chose the American Heritage Dictionary... Fay - NOUN: A fairy or an elf. ETYMOLOGY: Middle English faie, enchanted person or place, from Old French fae. See fairy . (source - The American Heritage. Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition. 2000.) Fey - (per the Oxford Concise) (adj) Unwordly and vague; having clairvoyant powers (origin Old English, faege,of Gmc. origin) (The Oxford Canadian dictionary has the same definition for "fay", but adds to the meaning of "fey" as follows (must be all those Scots we have living here in Canada!): "having a strange, almost other-wordly, whimsical charm; (usually ironic or derogatory) affected; Scottish - fated to die soon; overxcited or elated, as formerly associated with the state of mind of a person about to die." The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition. 2000. fey. ...Having or displaying an otherworldly, magical, or fairylike aspect or quality: She's got that fey look as though she's had breakfast with a leprechaun (Dorothy Burnham).... Now, on to "ofay": Ofay - US a derogatory term for a white person used by black people - origin, 1920s from "au fait", in the sense "genteel". (this from the Oxford concise.) The Canadian Oxford (although still an Oxford) gives this origin as being 20th c. probably of African origin.) Bartleby's website, under The American Heritage. Dictionary of the English Language: Fourth Edition. 2000 "Ofay NOUN: Offensive Slang Used as a disparaging term for a white person. ETYMOLOGY: Possibly of West African origin. WORD HISTORY: The commonly seen etymology of ofay-Pig Latin for foe-is of less interest than the more likely story of this word's origins. The word, which is first recorded in the first quarter of the 20th century, must have been in use much longer if it is, as some scholars think, borrowed from an African source. Although this source has not been pinned down, the suggested possibilities are in themselves interesting. One would trace it to the Ibibio word afia, "white or light-colored." Another would have it come from Yoruba ofe, a word that was said in order to protect oneself from danger. The term was then transferred to white people, regarded as a danger to Black people throughout the wretched days of slavery and beyond." (As for me, I think "fey" is the most likely - I always thought it referred to Joni's saying she's rich and a bit of a flake.) Then here's another possible explanation (My own): Is there a WC handy? I have to pee like crazy or I'm going to wet my pants (tequila anaconda anyone?) ===== Catherine Toronto ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 20:26:18 -0400 From: "Heather" Subject: RE: Rich and fay/fey/ofay I elect that we give Catherine an "A" for research! Excellent job! And on that note, maybe we can Fey-nish with this subject ;-) Heather - -----Original Message----- From: owner-joni@jmdl.com [mailto:owner-joni@jmdl.com]On Behalf Of Catherine McKay Sent: Monday, September 16, 2002 8:09 PM To: Jonilist Subject: Rich and fay/fey/ofay W.C. Handy, I'm rich and I'm fey... If anyone can stand any more on this subject! I checked all three words in the dictionaries we have at work, i.e., the Concise Oxford dictionary, 10th edition and the Canadian Oxford Dictionary, as well as Martindale's on the web - this is heaven for word-freaks, as it gives you all kinds of resources, not just on words but on anything! Fay - (noun) fairy (origin Middle English, from Old French, fae, faie from Latin fata, the Fates (N.B. the French word for fairy is "fee, avec un accent aigu sur le e, pronounced "fay" - or is it "fey"? C'est la meme chose!) Bartleby's - got there via martindale's - now there's a place to go if you wanna look stuff up! One thing leads to another and much time can be wasted (wasted?) looking things up. (P.S., I did this at work heh-heh-heh.) http://www-sci.lib.uci.edu/~martindale/Ref.html then chose the American Heritage Dictionary... Fay - NOUN: A fairy or an elf. ETYMOLOGY: Middle English faie, enchanted person or place, from Old French fae. See fairy . (source - The American Heritage. Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition. 2000.) Fey - (per the Oxford Concise) (adj) Unwordly and vague; having clairvoyant powers (origin Old English, faege,of Gmc. origin) (The Oxford Canadian dictionary has the same definition for "fay", but adds to the meaning of "fey" as follows (must be all those Scots we have living here in Canada!): "having a strange, almost other-wordly, whimsical charm; (usually ironic or derogatory) affected; Scottish - fated to die soon; overxcited or elated, as formerly associated with the state of mind of a person about to die." The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition. 2000. fey. ...Having or displaying an otherworldly, magical, or fairylike aspect or quality: She's got that fey look as though she's had breakfast with a leprechaun (Dorothy Burnham).... Now, on to "ofay": Ofay - US a derogatory term for a white person used by black people - origin, 1920s from "au fait", in the sense "genteel". (this from the Oxford concise.) The Canadian Oxford (although still an Oxford) gives this origin as being 20th c. probably of African origin.) Bartleby's website, under The American Heritage. Dictionary of the English Language: Fourth Edition. 2000 "Ofay NOUN: Offensive Slang Used as a disparaging term for a white person. ETYMOLOGY: Possibly of West African origin. WORD HISTORY: The commonly seen etymology of ofay-Pig Latin for foe-is of less interest than the more likely story of this word's origins. The word, which is first recorded in the first quarter of the 20th century, must have been in use much longer if it is, as some scholars think, borrowed from an African source. Although this source has not been pinned down, the suggested possibilities are in themselves interesting. One would trace it to the Ibibio word afia, "white or light-colored." Another would have it come from Yoruba ofe, a word that was said in order to protect oneself from danger. The term was then transferred to white people, regarded as a danger to Black people throughout the wretched days of slavery and beyond." (As for me, I think "fey" is the most likely - I always thought it referred to Joni's saying she's rich and a bit of a flake.) Then here's another possible explanation (My own): Is there a WC handy? I have to pee like crazy or I'm going to wet my pants (tequila anaconda anyone?) ===== Catherine Toronto ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 17:48:20 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jim L'Hommedieu" Subject: Re: Rich and fay/fey/ofay I was a little off-hand the other day about this but...... To me, "fay" seems less likely. The tone of her writing is not to call herself a fairy, dispensing magic, for example. The spin about calling herself "other-worldly" matches pretty well, and mirrors my observation that she's a pale, Caucasian ghost, in a world of black ghosts. Never one to avoid stating the obvious as I am, either way, it rhymes with 'what you play'. On reflection, "ofay", having its origin in the 1920's as a disparaging racist term for a white is pretty close to the flavor of Furry's naked dislike, rooted in the Memphis racism of the 30s. At minimum it certainly enriches the word choice. To me, it's likely that she skillfully used the word "fey", knowing that it would also imply "ofay". This business of calling herself by a disparaging name reminds me of "Talk To Me" from the very next year, where she's saying "Shut me up and Talk to me!" I'm loving this thread. Lamadoo > Now, on to "ofay": > Ofay - US a derogatory term for a white person used > by > black people - origin, 1920s from "au fait", in the > sense "genteel". (this from the Oxford concise.) - --- Catherine McKay wrote: > W.C. Handy, I'm rich and I'm fey... Yahoo! News - Today's headlines http://news.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 17:51:40 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jim L'Hommedieu" Subject: RE: Rich and fay/fey/ofay, pun alert! or 'fey'-n disinterest? - --- Heather wrote: > I elect that we give Catherine an "A" for research! > Excellent job! > > And on that note, maybe we can Fey-nish with this > subject ;-) > > Heather Yahoo! News - Today's headlines http://news.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 22:17:57 -0400 From: "Heather" Subject: RE: Rich and fay/fey/ofay, pun alert! LOL! - -----Original Message----- From: owner-joni@jmdl.com [mailto:owner-joni@jmdl.com]On Behalf Of Jim L'Hommedieu Sent: Monday, September 16, 2002 8:52 PM To: Heather; joni@smoe.org Subject: RE: Rich and fay/fey/ofay, pun alert! or 'fey'-n disinterest? - --- Heather wrote: > I elect that we give Catherine an "A" for research! > Excellent job! > > And on that note, maybe we can Fey-nish with this > subject ;-) > > Heather Yahoo! News - Today's headlines http://news.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 22:48:11 EDT From: Bobsart48@aol.com Subject: Re: Bush bashing and snide remarks - SJC In reply to what Lori wrote the other day: > > As for my snide remark, I think one or two should be allowed > > here every now and then to balance out the constantly ongoing > > flows of ones against Bush, no? Nothing personal. > > Kakki, you know I love you, but the above cracked me up. Here we are > on a list that began with admiration for and discussion about a woman > who wrote these words (which were, btw, beautifully sung by Alison and > Kay at Jonifest this year): > > And so once again > Oh, America my friend > And so once again > You are fighting us all > And when we ask you why > You raise your sticks and cry and we fall > Oh, my friend > How did you come > To trade the fiddle for the drum To this, I would reply that Fiddle and the Drum was young work by a politically naive young artist, expressing herself quite artistically, as usual, during the politically divisive Vietnam war. As far as I know, Joni is not widely regarded to this day as an expert on national or international affairs, so I do not really see how this song (I never did really get the "once again" part of the song) is of any relevance to this topic. > > You think we're going to say nice things about Bush and his ilk, all > clearly hawks who want nothing more than to (paraphrasing Fred Simon) > waive our big American dick around the Middle East? (Is it a > coincidence that Bush and Cheney are oil boys? I think not.) The only > sane person in the bunch *seems* to be Colin Powell. I found this to be a snide, obviously exaggerated and non-credible comment in the context of what is a very important topic that deserves more sincere and respectful treatment. A superior and more mature JM lyric to quote in the context of this discussion, IMO, would be Borderline: Everybody looks so ill at ease So distrustful so displeased Running down the table I see a borderline Like a barbed wire fence Strung tight strung tense Prickling with pretense A borderline Why are you smirking at your friend? Is this to be the night when All well-wishing ends? All credibility revoked? Thin skin thick jokes! Can we blame it on the smoke, This borderline? Every bristling shaft of pride Church or nation Team or tribe Every notion we subscribe to Is just a borderline Good or bad we think we know As if thinking makes things so! All convictions grow along a borderline Smug in your jaded expertise You scathe the wonder world And you praise barbarity In this illusionary place This scared hard-edged rat race All liberty is laced with Borderlines Every income every age Every fashion-plated rage Every measure every gauge Creates a borderline Every stone thrown through glass Every mean-streets-kick ass Every swan caught on the grass Will draw a borderline You snipe so steady You snub so snide So ripe and ready To diminish and deride! You're so quick to condescend My opinionated friend All you deface all you defend Is just a borderline Just a borderline Another borderline Just a borderline > I don't know the true numbers (time for another poll?), but I think > it's safe to say that more of us on the JMDL consider ourselves > liberals than not. So yeah, we're going to bash Bush and his boys. Count me in as right of center, please - and I dislike the arrogant demagogues like Hannity and Grant and Limbaugh. Are you implying that the entitlement to bash derives from strength in numbers ? Is that courageous ? > > Still, what we have to say, and how we say it, doesn't even come close > to the blatant, seething, disrespectful hatred of the Right toward > Clinton. And that was long before blow jobs and the meaning of "is." Lori, I am afraid I disagree. I found your comments above to be well within the same category, especially when you attribute the other badness to approximately half the country (you did not say 'far right', after all, just 'Right'. Considering Borderline, do you think Joni would approve of the tone of some of the remarks posted recently ? Bob S. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 23:10:43 EDT From: Bobsart48@aol.com Subject: Re: Twisted Chalkmark In a message dated 9/16/02 4:25:39 PM Eastern Daylight Time, les@jmdl.com writes: SC Joni Guy wrote: > To contrast, Cheech & Chong fit in brilliantly on "Twisted", there's > nothing on CMIARS that sounds that good. > > Bob > > Oh good grief ! What's with the Chalk Mark bashing ? :~) Not to mention Peter Gabriel bashing, et al bashing. OK, I bow down to the great recording artists "Cheech and Chong". Time to Run Fast, Mr. Mueller, I'm turning into a Wild Thing Bob S. ------------------------------ End of onlyJMDL Digest V2002 #270 ********************************* ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she? (http://www.siquomb.com/siquomb.cfm)