From: les@jmdl.com (onlyJMDL Digest) To: onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Subject: onlyJMDL Digest V2002 #261 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/onlyjoni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com Unsubscribe: mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe onlyJMDL Digest Tuesday, September 10 2002 Volume 2002 : Number 261 The Official Joni Mitchell Homepage, created by Wally Breese, can be found at http://www.jonimitchell.com. It contains the latest news, a detailed bio, Original Interviews, essays, lyrics and much much more. The JMDL website can be found at http://www.jmdl.com and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Today's Library Links: September 9 [ljirvin@adelphia.net] Re: Blue Motel Room [Susan Guzzi ] Joni Mitchell thesis*** ["Doman, Iruma" ] Re: Blue Motel Room [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: "A Travelogue", formerly known as "Swan Song" & "Both Sides, Again: the Sequel" [SCJo] Re: Blue Motel Room [RoseMJoy@aol.com] kate's CD ["Barbara L" ] Re: onlyJMDL Digest V2002 #260 [Jennymac48@aol.com] Re: A Travelogue! ["Lori in MD" ] Re: Blue Motel Room ["Garret" ] Re: A Travelogue! [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: A Travelogue! ["Lori in MD" ] Songcatcher [RoseMJoy@aol.com] Re: Songcatcher [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] a travelogue ["J.David Sapp" ] joni underrated? / how i discovered joni ["Kate Bennett" ] Re: FW: dancing about architecture... [Relayer211@aol.com] The Magdalene Movie [pyramus@lineone.net] About Joni being underrated! ["Amelio Alamo" ] Re: About Joni being underrated! [anne@sandstrom.com] Re: Blue Motel Room [Michael Paz ] Re: Blue Motel Room [Michael Paz ] Re: Shiny Toys and miscellany [Bobsart48@aol.com] Re: Shiny Toys and miscellany [Michael Paz ] joni under-rated [Angela.Takats@reuters.com] Re: joni under-rated ["kakki" ] re: Mulholland Drive - Some Joni Content [Franco ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 09 Sep 2002 03:00:05 -0400 From: ljirvin@adelphia.net Subject: Today's Library Links: September 9 On September 9 the following items were published: 1974: "80,000 Jam Roosevelt Track for Summer Rock Finale" - New York Times (Review - Concert) http://www.jmdl.com/articles/docs/740909nyt.cfm 1990: "Joni Mitchell" - London Sunday Times (Interview, with photographs) http://www.jmdl.com/articles/docs/900909lst.cfm 1998: "Joni's Jazzed" - Chicago Tribune (Biography) http://www.jmdl.com/articles/docs/980909ct.cfm ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Sep 2002 03:38:08 -0700 (PDT) From: Susan Guzzi Subject: Re: Blue Motel Room Hi Everybody, Just now coming somewhat off f my fest high. So I thought I would get my feet wet here with my own analysis. Kate wrote: But from where I stand, I don't think Joni is under-rated at all. I think she is highly regarded, especially among musicians ... Bree says: I know a number of people who do not particularily care for her music ...for whatever reason. But they do understand her importance... her amazing song writing skills.. BUT.... she has not touched them like she has us. I completely agree with these two assestments and would add a couple of my own. Having tried to be a Joni ambassador and introduce and brainwash many a victim, here is my personal expereince. When I have tried to stress to Differently-abled music-fan friends ahem, their complaint is that music should be music and they don't want to delve so deep into so many layers. Well my friend, I say, I love you but you are freakin simple minded! I do not believe they look at music as art - it is purely a recreation to them. This is not the case with us. Creativity, reinvention and tranformation are keys. How many people will be sitting aroud 25 years from now and analyzing "Oops I did it again?" The other problem i believe was Joni's early voice, which is still my favorite period in her travelogue. But I try to explain again that this voice changes and has been at many different highs and lows through out her musical time. And finally because of hyper commercial success now being the judgement for an artist, this tends to diminish the music gene pool. And these days. although Starbucks plays Joni pretty regularly (ask my sister) Joni has never gotten the air time she deserved. And radio stations that introduced me to her Blue album back in the summer of 71, (I think was about 5) have also abandon her. It is sad, in some ways. But in a way I think for Joni and us, it all worked out. I am sure glad not to have those creative cripples amongst us. She's special and I think we all are too. Love all you Joniphiles! By the way since the subject line is "Blue Motel Room" - just let me say how much I love this song! I would love to perform this sometime, even though I'll never forget Bob Mullers steamy rendition from last years fest! Picture me in a frilly gown, a boa lying across ... never mind! Peace, Susan NP: HOSL= Dont Interrupt the Sorrow. Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes http://finance.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Sep 2002 06:40:18 -0400 From: "Doman, Iruma" Subject: Joni Mitchell thesis*** I just wanted to say that i am so glad that i joined this list!!! It was only a couple of days ago that i posted my first message requesting help and feedback for my thesis on Joni & gender issues and I have recieved so many positive responses! I wanted to thank everyone who replied to me! I really appreicate the advice and encouragement i have recieved from all of you! Quite a few people recommended specific songs, or articles for me to look at, which i definitely will do. Someone else recommended Karen O'Brien's biography, which i have just ordered, so i will be reading it soon. Someone also reccomended watching the Come In From The COld video, which i have not been able to find anywhere!! Can anybody help me??? I did a search on the internet and as far as i can see, it doesn't seem to exist! FOr those of you who were interested in what i am studying: my degree is in English Literature and American Sudies. I am at university in England and am about to begin my final (4th) year. My third year was spent studying at a college in the US (on an exchange program), where i began doing my research on Joni. I was really pleased that so many of you wrote to offer me good luck and encouragement, and also that people expressed an interest in reading my thesis when it is finished. I will keep you all updated with how it is going... Until then, i am still open to hearing any advice/opinions that everyone has on these issues. Thanks again for everything! Immy ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 09 Sep 2002 07:50:15 -0400 From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: Blue Motel Room > I would love to perform this sometime, even though I'll > never forget Bob Mullers steamy > rendition from last years fest! Go for it, Susan! That full jazz voice of yours would be magnificent wrapped around that song. Thanks for the good words as well...I'm just glad I did MY version of "Edith" in 2001! After Sherelle's KO performance this year we might have to retire THAT one! ;~) Bob NP: The Wallflowers, "Murder 101" ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 09 Sep 2002 07:51:43 -0400 From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: "A Travelogue", formerly known as "Swan Song" & "Both Sides, Again: the Sequel" > And now the next question is (putting on eggs and tomato repellent suit) > will there be "special packaging"? Perhaps a special edition that comes in > a little old fashioned suitcase with travel stickers on it > and inside are > actual postcards of her paintings?? Heehee! LOL! (And keeping all the produce in the fridge...) She is certainly welcome to do so, but as Pete Townshend stated: "We won't get fooled again" ! ;~) Bob, whose BSN hatbox now happily resides in the home of Les Ross ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Sep 2002 07:55:54 EDT From: RoseMJoy@aol.com Subject: Re: Blue Motel Room In a message dated 9/9/02 7:49:53 AM Eastern Daylight Time, SCJoniGuy@aol.com writes: > I'm just glad I did MY version of "Edith" in 2001! After Sherelle's KO > performance this year we might have to retire THAT one! ;~) > > nah, each with charm to sway r. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 09 Sep 2002 13:31:47 +0000 From: "Barbara L" Subject: kate's CD Kate, listened to your CD all afternoon yesterday. It is soooooo fabulous. What a gift!!!! Love, Barbara Little _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Sep 2002 09:48:10 EDT From: Jennymac48@aol.com Subject: Re: onlyJMDL Digest V2002 #260 Lamadoo, do you think the doucmentary of Alison Anders would be released in small actual theatres? Oh god, can we wait that long? ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 09 Sep 2002 07:22:12 -0700 From: "Lori in MD" Subject: Re: A Travelogue! "Lazyasz" wrote: > Oh, i'm sure many will accuse Joni of further coasting > and resting on laurels To those folks I say: Joni is almost 59 years old, she has created an amazing catalog of some of the best music and lyrics of the last 35 years, and if she wants to "coast and rest," she deserves it!!! Lori ~ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Sep 2002 16:15:47 +0100 From: "Garret" Subject: Re: Blue Motel Room I thought Steve meant that she is underrated by the general audience nowadays, which i believe she is. Being around the same age as Steve i can certainly appreciate where he was coming from., It is rare to meet poele our age that will even accept Joni, let alone give her the credit we all feel she is due (and it is just that, isn't it; credit **we feel** she is due/ all fans the world over say this about the object of their fandom, but that is another discussion all togehter:-) When i first joined this list i made a point of saying that JM is the musical equivalent of GM Hopkins. I still hold to that view. I also commented that i had never met any other fan of Joni's. Since then i have introduced Joni (if only by name) to everyone i know. Now my friends ring me if she's on the radio or tv. They tell me if she's mentioned somewhere. They look at her cds when they go into a store. They know from where came the artwork. They feel the respect that i feel for Joni. Without trying to get them to listen to Joni i have opened their eyes to her existence ( and i hope also to her importance). They all know her name. Two of my friends have, on their own accord, bought Joni CDs. In 2000 i met Jim in Hyannis, Ma. Jim said " i hate lesbian music; i can't stand folk; and that Joni Mitchell is the biggest culprit in both areas" Seriously, that's what he said!!! He had *never* listened to her. His "icons" were Stevei Nicks, Kate Bush and Cyndi Laupar. I made two cds of my fave joni tracks for him. He then bought most of her cds!! I posted his reactions to those songs to the list a long time ago; the only thing he didnt really like was "Why do fools fall in love". He adored teh BSN tracks i chose, and is eagerly awaiting the upcoming release. Donna bought hits one day and listened to it non stop for months. One night i stayed out without telling anybody (which is a big swing considering that i tell everyone where i am and what im doing and i usually know for weeks in advance). It was a wild drunken night, and we'll leave it there _(insert cheeky grin emoticon)_ When i rang home the following evening, Donna was in my house almost crying!! SHe had left in teh middle of a tennis match when her sister rang to say i hadn't went home hte night before. She thought something awful had happened. I headed home. She had went back to her house at that point. Wheni rang her at home, i could hear "river" in the background. She was pretty cut up (she has only ever half forgiven me!) She also loves C&S, so she wasn't entirely out of place at the recent UKJonifest. I have only met two fans of joni not through the list, both of whom i attempted to date (mental not to self; don't date Joni fans that you didn't meet throught the list!) One was canadian, one was irish. Both were about the same age as me. I have met literally hundreds of smashing pumpkins fans, jewel fans, placebo fans, bjork fans, ben folds fans, beth orton fans, counting crows fans, alanis fans, hole fans, fiona apple fans, dolly parton fans, tori amos fans, sarah mclachlain fans, nirvana fans, jeff buckley fans, REM fans, radiohead fans, kate bush fans (etc etc etc) all of whom are around my age. Very few of them even knew the name Joni Mithcell, let alone had any appreciation of who she was/is. The ones that did know her, knew her from Amy Grants BYT and Janet Jacksons "Got til its gone". When looked at from this perspective, it doesn't seem far off the mark for Steve, aged 19 i think, to say Joni is underrated. In our generation she really is. But then, it is just *one* perspective of many, isn't? GARRET NP- Eleanor McEvoy with Mary Black, Only A Womans Heart (what a great song!!!) ps- it's Sabrina September on Nickleodeon!! ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 09 Sep 2002 11:00:46 -0400 From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: A Travelogue! > Joni is almost 59 years old, she has created an > amazing catalog of some of the best music and lyrics of the last 35 > years, and if she wants to "coast and rest," she deserves > it!!! True Lori...BUT you talk as though 59 is old. I would have thought that myself many years ago, but now that I've looked at age from both sides now....anyway, many of the artists that she admires were very productive in their "post-youth"; Picasso, Georgia O'Keeffe, and the classical composers she was influenced by as well. So we can hold out hope that she'll continue to supply the fix we all crave for a while yet! :~) Bob NP: Wall of Voodoo, "Spy World" ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 09 Sep 2002 08:12:39 -0700 From: "Lori in MD" Subject: Re: A Travelogue! > True Lori...BUT you talk as though 59 is old. I agree with you, Bob. 59 is not old. > So we can hold out hope that she'll continue to > supply the fix we all crave for a while yet! :~) I hope for that as well ... however (and here comes the heresy!), if we're not going to get another C&S, HOSL, Hejira, or DJRD, I will gladly take reworkings of some of Joni's favorite and best over another CMIARS or TTT. Just my 2 cents. Lori ~ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Sep 2002 13:15:35 EDT From: RoseMJoy@aol.com Subject: Songcatcher I'm watching this movie on HBO In 1907, Dr. Lily Penleric, a musicologist frustrated by career obstacles, takes refuge with her sister in Appalachia...and discovers a world of folk music sung by the locals that has existed unaltered since it was transported from Europe. In her efforts to record and preserve this music, Lily faces great opposition from many of the locals--including a ruggedly handsome adventurer--who want to preserve the music privately in their own way. "Four stars...beautifully rendered" (Leonard Maltin's 2002 Movie & Video Guide). With Janet McTeer (Tumbleweeds), Aidan Quinn, Pat Carroll, Jane Adams (Happiness). Actors: AIDAN QUINN, JANET MCTEER, TAJ MAHAL, IRIS DEMENT, PAT CARROLL, JANE ADAMS, EMMY ROSSUM, E. KATHERINE KERR Director: MAGGIE GREENWALD and what do I hear....some of the lyrics from In Silky Veils of Ardor. Did Joni write this song??? perhaps some stolen lyrics??? I'd hate to think. rose ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 09 Sep 2002 13:20:10 -0400 From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: Songcatcher > Did > Joni write this song??? perhaps some stolen lyrics??? I'd > hate to think. Musically, it's all hers. Lyrically, she borrowed liberally from a couple of other classic folk songs that have been around for generations. Sorta like "A Bird That Whistles", except that she credits that one. I think with 'Veils' the lyrics were more public domain to begin with. Anyway, she certainly makes it her own and what a great closer to her masterpiece of DJRD! Bob NP: Dinah Washington, "I'll CLose My Eyes" ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Sep 2002 12:38:59 -0500 From: "J.David Sapp" Subject: a travelogue culling from 2 different sources we have these tracks identified so far: Woodstock, Amelia, Chinese Cafi, Flat Tire, For the Roses, God Must Be a Boogie Man, Sex Kills, Be Cool, Just Like This Train, The Last Time I Saw Richard and Circle Game. Coyote," "The Sire of Sorrow (Job's Sad Song)," "Judgement of the Moon and Stars (Ludwig's Tune)," " 'Refuge of the Roads,' 'Borderline' and 'Cherokee Louise.' 'The Dawntreader i figure that leaves 5 or 6 tunes not yet mentioned peace, david ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Sep 2002 11:07:53 -0700 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: joni underrated? / how i discovered joni thanks for your great post garret & for clarifying what you & steve & others mean when you talk about joni being underrated...i think it is so incredible that so many people around your age have found joni's music because these days you really do have to find her on your own with no help from the media...it is a remarkable testament to her artistry that her work holds up decades later & that people of all generations are such avid fans of her work...this is quite rare i think....& yes, i can see why she would be considered underrated to folks your age...but i'm preaching to the choir... i hope my post wasn't dismissive to anyone as i do understand this perception...i always feel that i want to chime in on this subject as i am one who grew up with her music so to speak & in those days she was IT...it is wonderful that you are turning so many people on to her...i can understand why most of the artists you mentioned would be more well known to your friends as they emerged more recently than joni (with the exception of dolly...also you could say that rem, stevie n, cyndi l & kate b have been around for quite some time but still they emerged much more recently than joni) in my world (which is admittedly not an accurate cross section of the general population)... joni still reigns supreme...but my world is made up of mostly songwriters & musicians, most of whom can play a few joni tunes! however i must admit that the folks on this list are far more sophisticated in their ability to play & sing a wider array of her songs which include not only her older work but also much of her more recent... when i joined this list i soon found out how little i knew about so much of joni's music compared to folks on this list...which leads me to the thread of how i discovered joni...well it was pretty much from the beginning when her first record was released...the first song i ever learned of hers was the first song off her first record ... i had a king...like many i kind of fell away when she released mingus (but i fell away from so many things during that time...another story altogether) but returned with joy when she released chalkmark in a rainstorm & have stuck around ever since! i regret not seeing her tour when she came to town with pat metheny but when she returned a few years later (married to larry at that time) i broke into my piggy bank & went to see the show...i was in heaven getting to see my great mentor for the first time in my life...i remember how cool it was seeing her so so joyously in love & seeing her as a more seasoned & mature artist was inspiring...then i saw her again when she toured with bob & van...it was one of jeff & my first dates (he wanted to see bob, i wanted to see joni & she did not disappoint! what i didn't expect was for bob to be so rockingly superb so it was a great show & now jeff & i are married & i drag him to jonifest! so far there is no bobfest but maybe one of these days...lol) ******************************************** Kate Bennett: www.katebennett.com Sponsored by Polysonics/Atlantis Sound Labs Over the Moon- "bringing the melancholy world of twilight to life almost like magic" All Music Guide ******************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 09 Sep 2002 13:55:17 -0400 From: "Erica Trudelle" Subject: Off Night Backstreet hello everyone! Just wondering who really did leave her "long black hair" in the bathtub drain? fiction or non-fiction?? I've really grown to LOVE this song...soo damn good! - -Erica NP: Stevie : Talking Book _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Sep 2002 14:26:13 EDT From: Relayer211@aol.com Subject: Re: FW: dancing about architecture... In a message dated 8/29/2002 7:26:46 PM Eastern Standard Time, pleader@nyc.rr.com writes: > > anyway, we weren't sure who coined the phrase, and now i've found that noone > really knows. the website below lays out some of the suspects. > > You're not sure who xoined the phrase????I thought everyone knew it was John Lennon...I read the exact interview of him saying that line... ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Sep 2002 21:26:17 +0100 From: pyramus@lineone.net Subject: The Magdalene Movie Film Censured by Catholics Wins Top Venice Prize A film that deals in part with the alleged mistreatment of Irish convent women by the Catholic Church has won the Golden Lion award, the top prize of the Venice Film Festival. In accepting the award Sunday night, British director Peter Mullan said that the film, The Magdalene Sisters, was not just about Catholicism. "It's about all ... fundamental faiths who think they have the right to oppress young women." The Vatican newspaper 'L'Osservatore Romano has condemned the movie. http://us.imdb.com/Details?0318411 Might be worth a look. The film stars Geraldine McKewan, "Prime of Miss Jean Brodie" and "Mapp and Lucia". I'm sure she makes a wonderful cruel nun. ~Kevin ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 09 Sep 2002 21:39:44 +0100 From: "Amelio Alamo" Subject: About Joni being underrated! Okay about Joni being underrated; I think everyone has made some fair comments. To be conclusive though I think that maybe she is more well known in the USA and among older people. That's just generalizing though! I don't know anyone (physically) who likes Joni. Hopefully that's not a reflection on my social life! LOL. I have also tried to spread the word but in most peoples minds she is not cool. Shallow I know! Other complaints; She can sing uncomfortably high. I just think that she has (had) a great range. Someone also said she sounds too posh! I think that she just has class. But I think the main reason is that her music is not formula and a lot of people can not cope with that. This is just my view on things anyway. STEVE _________________________________________________________________ Join the worlds largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 09 Sep 2002 16:53:46 -0700 (PDT) From: anne@sandstrom.com Subject: Re: About Joni being underrated! Hi Steve, You wrote: > But I think the main reason is that her music is not > formula and a lot of > people can not cope with that. I agree with you wholeheartedly on this. (I was going to get into this in some detail in my workshop at JoniFest.) In the early years, Joni didn't usually add a chorus as such. (BYT, The Circle Game, Little Green and Woodstock being some notable exceptions.) ) Her early song forms are often A A A A, sometimes with a sort of 'tag' line at the end of each verse. The standard folk form is A B A B A B, with A being the verse and B the chorus. I think that's one reason she was pigeonholed in the folk category for so long. I'm not sure which song is the first of hers to use a bridge, but I think it's pretty far along in her career. The form in that case is often: A B A B C B, with A being the verse, B the chorus, and C the bridge. This is the form most pop songs follow these days. It's amazing to me when I listen to the radio to see this form repeated over and over, song after song. A bridge is used to change the pace a bit, grab the listener's attention, and build momentum for a big chorus to finish. Anyway, that's all to say that I agree. And, if any of you are bored sometime, just TRY to figure out the form of Pirate of Penance. Man, that song has no known form! lots of love Anne ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 09 Sep 2002 19:30:41 -0700 From: Michael Paz Subject: Re: Blue Motel Room I am still in a pool of goo on the stage at Full Moon! That woman might be my other lost wicked step sister that was separated from me at birth (you know the Beth Patterson Story!) Wow I will never forget that feeling! Paz on 9/9/02 4:50 AM, SCJoniGuy@aol.com at SCJoniGuy@aol.com wrote: >> I would love to perform this sometime, even though I'll >> never forget Bob Mullers steamy >> rendition from last years fest! > > Go for it, Susan! That full jazz voice of yours would be magnificent wrapped > around that song. > > Thanks for the good words as well...I'm just glad I did MY version of "Edith" > in 2001! After Sherelle's KO performance this year we might have to retire > THAT one! ;~) > > Bob > > NP: The Wallflowers, "Murder 101" ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 09 Sep 2002 19:31:24 -0700 From: Michael Paz Subject: Re: Blue Motel Room OHMYGAWD YOU hussy You! Paz on 9/9/02 4:55 AM, RoseMJoy@aol.com at RoseMJoy@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 9/9/02 7:49:53 AM Eastern Daylight Time, SCJoniGuy@aol.com > writes: > > >> I'm just glad I did MY version of "Edith" in 2001! After Sherelle's KO >> performance this year we might have to retire THAT one! ;~) >> >> > > nah, each with charm to sway > r. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Sep 2002 22:42:16 EDT From: Bobsart48@aol.com Subject: Re: Shiny Toys and miscellany I'm about a week late posting this, but what the heck. Shiny Toys and Dancin Clowns "Jenny I am STILL trying to figure out what to do with my life when I grow up, but then I digress. LOL! Flat Tires is a great tune. I love that album. It's a falling in love album (which is a good thing). How about Shiny Toys as a least fave? Don't worry Don Rowe is gone and won't have a shit hemmorage over that one.. HEH hee." OK. But you'll still have to deal with Bob S (for Senseofhumour). I like Shiny Toys a lot. And I like Dancin Clown. Here I am bucking the two macho icons of the JMDL (Paz and Bob Muller over). I like Joni's playful side (I like the side on the inside of the FTR album jacket, too ;-)). There's Something About Joni Hey, speaking of senses of humor, I just saw "There's Something About Mary" for the second time. I was in tears-runnin-down-my-face stitches again over the slapstick scenes with the dog. And please don't mail me any animal rights/ politically correct cough medicine. I've got two cats in the yard (the two luckiest pets in the world - both adopted strays - following in the pawsteps of our late poodle and other cat, who lived to age 15 or so). Also, does anyone else see a resemblance between the male characters in TSAM and us male characters in the JMDL. There's something about Joni..............:-) The 80's Albums I am on record as reversing Bob Muller's ratings on the 80's albums (I prefer CMIAR, then DED, the WTRF). Maybe I don't like when Joni's having fun with some other guy. And how can love be really solid in a year or two ? Anyway, in order to show humility and do penance, I have been listening to WTRF twice a week for the last month. I have a feeling I may change my ratings before I am done....... again - as Joni sings in later version of BYT ;-) I think Lucky Girl (more individually personal) would have made a better closing cut to WTRF, and Love (more universal - the antidote to society's darker side ?) a better closing cut to DED. (I realize that chronology probably dictated against that). Still - what do you all think ? Opening and Closing Cuts I have found that, in designing a pleasurable album/CD, the musical artist (like the golf course architect) needs to pay special attention to the opening and closing cuts (holes). The opening should be substantial, but inviting, to seduce and capture. The closing should be a dramatic, memorable statement, one of the best if not the best work of the creation. So it is with my town's golf course (I'm a Lucky Guy). And so it is (I would say) for the most part with Joni's records. However, on some occasions, her close is a simple or lighthearted goodbye (nothing so banal as "Her Majesty", but in that vein). When that anitclimactic approach is taken, the penultimate cut should be powerful. To refresh our memories: Album Opener Closer JM - STAS I Had a King Cactus Tree Clouds Tin Angel Both Sides Now LOTC Morning Morgantown Circle Game Blue All I Want The Last Time I Saw Richard FTR Banquet Judgment of the Moon & Stars C&S C&S Twisted HOSL In France They Kiss.. Shadoiws & Light Hejira Coyote Refuge of the Roads DJRD Cotton Avenue Silky Veils of Ardor Mingus God Must Be a Boogie Man Goodbye Pork Pie Hat WTRF Chinese Cafi/ UM Love DED Good Friends Lucky Girl CMIAR My Secret Place A Bird That Whistles Night Ride Home NRH Two Grey Rooms Turblent Indigo Sunny Sunday Sire of Sorrow TTT Harlem in Havana My Best to You BSN You're My Thrill BSN I love Joni's choices, except as follows: Tin Angel - too much like I Had a King (which was a fine "here I am" for album 1), and not inviting enough. Still, with 5 "relationship" songs, how does one space them out ? Tin Angel, Chelsea Morning, I Don't Know Where I Stand, Midway, The Gallery. Is this 5 different guys - on one album ? Maybe she should have opened with a cover of I Get Around ....;-) Banquet - Feels wrong as an opener to me. I think I would have moved the title song in first. (That produces some re-ordering issues; I would then go with Banquet, Barangrill, WOH&M, LIS, LTWCM, YTMOIAR, CBS&SF, BITB, Electricity, SYS and JOTM&S). That would have retained a sequences that I like - Lesson in Survival/ Let the Wind Carry Me and produced something of a 5-song romance (JT ?) sequence right before the end. I know - I am not worthy to comment on this. Still, ... Twisted - needs a killer before it (I think Down to You). A Bird That Whistles - really needs a big song in front of it. Joni was apparently partial to Reoccurring Dream - I am not. Unfortunately, there is no big song on the album. In fact, I think the album has a strong opening but then sort of peters out. Hmmm. I still like it. Has she ever made an album that was not at least very good ? (Mingus is my next project after WTRF, though I like Goodbye PPH and Dry Cleaner a lot). TI - I would have opened with Sex Kills. TTT - I have a feeling I would have opened differently - perhaps with the title song - but I find this album so homogeneous that it hardly matters. That's only 4 complaints, out of 34 total opening/closing choices (plus wishing for two improved penultimate cuts). I must have good taste, too. :-) Bob S ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 09 Sep 2002 22:10:39 -0700 From: Michael Paz Subject: Re: Shiny Toys and miscellany Hi Bob YOU can call ME Butch! I love WTRF because it IS a falling in love record and there are so many fo the songs that I DO love Flat Tires was not one of the original ones, but suddenly I love it. DED and CMIARS well still I am struggling. But thank God cause I have something to look forward to. I ALSO loved TSAM. As far as Joni's album go I wouldn't change a one of them, esp. For The Roses, Wild Things Run Fast, and Hejira (not to mention Blue, Ladies of the Canyon, Shadows and Light, and Turbulent Indigo). All I pray for is more original music by Joni before she is done. I respect all she has done and look forward to hearing her next project no matter what it is (including her reading of the LA white pages), but please let there be a few more new songs ok a couple of dozen. Best PaZ on 9/9/02 7:42 PM, Bobsart48@aol.com at Bobsart48@aol.com wrote: > I'm about a week late posting this, but what the heck. > > Shiny Toys and Dancin Clowns > > "Jenny > I am STILL trying to figure out what to do with my life when I grow up, but > then I digress. LOL! Flat Tires is a great tune. I love that album. It's a > falling in love album (which is a good thing). How about Shiny Toys as a > least fave? Don't worry Don Rowe is gone and won't have a shit hemmorage > over that one.. HEH hee." > > OK. But you'll still have to deal with Bob S (for Senseofhumour). I like > Shiny Toys a lot. And I like Dancin Clown. Here I am bucking the two macho > icons of the JMDL (Paz and Bob Muller over). I like Joni's playful side (I > like the side on the inside of the FTR album jacket, too ;-)). > > There's Something About Joni > > Hey, speaking of senses of humor, I just saw "There's Something About Mary" > for the second time. I was in tears-runnin-down-my-face stitches again over > the slapstick scenes with the dog. And please don't mail me any animal > rights/ politically correct cough medicine. I've got two cats in the yard > (the two luckiest pets in the world - both adopted strays - following in > the pawsteps of our late poodle and other cat, who lived to age 15 or so). > > Also, does anyone else see a resemblance between the male characters in TSAM > and us male characters in the JMDL. There's something about > Joni..............:-) > > The 80's Albums > > I am on record as reversing Bob Muller's ratings on the 80's albums (I > prefer CMIAR, then DED, the WTRF). Maybe I don't like when Joni's having fun > with some other guy. And how can love be really solid in a year or two ? > Anyway, in order to show humility and do penance, I have been listening to > WTRF twice a week for the last month. I have a feeling I may change my > ratings before I am done....... again - as Joni sings in later version of > BYT ;-) > > I think Lucky Girl (more individually personal) would have made a better > closing cut to WTRF, and Love (more universal - the antidote to society's > darker side ?) a better closing cut to DED. (I realize that chronology > probably dictated against that). Still - what do you all think ? > > Opening and Closing Cuts > > I have found that, in designing a pleasurable album/CD, the musical artist > (like the golf course architect) needs to pay special attention to the > opening and closing cuts (holes). The opening should be substantial, but > inviting, to seduce and capture. The closing should be a dramatic, memorable > statement, one of the best if not the best work of the creation. So it is > with my town's golf course (I'm a Lucky Guy). And so it is (I would say) for > the most part with Joni's records. However, on some occasions, her close is > a simple or lighthearted goodbye (nothing so banal as "Her Majesty", but in > that vein). When that anitclimactic approach is taken, the penultimate cut > should be powerful. To refresh our memories: > > Album Opener Closer > > JM - STAS I Had a King Cactus Tree > Clouds Tin Angel Both Sides Now > LOTC Morning Morgantown Circle Game > Blue All I Want The Last Time I Saw > Richard > FTR Banquet Judgment of the Moon & Stars > C&S C&S Twisted > HOSL In France They Kiss.. Shadoiws & Light > Hejira Coyote Refuge of the Roads > DJRD Cotton Avenue Silky Veils of Ardor > Mingus God Must Be a Boogie Man Goodbye Pork Pie Hat > WTRF Chinese Cafi/ UM Love > DED Good Friends Lucky Girl > CMIAR My Secret Place A Bird That Whistles > Night Ride Home NRH Two Grey Rooms > Turblent Indigo Sunny Sunday Sire of Sorrow > TTT Harlem in Havana My Best to You > BSN You're My Thrill BSN > > I love Joni's choices, except as follows: > > Tin Angel - too much like I Had a King (which was a fine "here I am" for > album 1), and not inviting enough. Still, with 5 "relationship" songs, how > does one space them out ? Tin Angel, Chelsea Morning, I Don't Know Where I > Stand, Midway, The Gallery. Is this 5 different guys - on one album ? Maybe > she should have opened with a cover of I Get Around ....;-) > > Banquet - Feels wrong as an opener to me. I think I would have moved the > title song in first. (That produces some re-ordering issues; I would then go > with Banquet, Barangrill, WOH&M, LIS, LTWCM, YTMOIAR, CBS&SF, BITB, > Electricity, SYS and JOTM&S). That would have retained a sequences that I > like - Lesson in Survival/ Let the Wind Carry Me and produced something of a > 5-song romance (JT ?) sequence right before the end. I know - I am not > worthy to comment on this. Still, ... > > Twisted - needs a killer before it (I think Down to You). > > A Bird That Whistles - really needs a big song in front of it. Joni was > apparently partial to Reoccurring Dream - I am not. Unfortunately, there is > no big song on the album. In fact, I think the album has a strong opening > but then sort of peters out. Hmmm. I still like it. Has she ever made an > album that was not at least very good ? (Mingus is my next project after > WTRF, though I like Goodbye PPH and Dry Cleaner a lot). > > TI - I would have opened with Sex Kills. > > TTT - I have a feeling I would have opened differently - perhaps with the > title song - but I find this album so homogeneous that it hardly matters. > > That's only 4 complaints, out of 34 total opening/closing choices (plus > wishing > for two improved penultimate cuts). I must have good taste, too. :-) > > Bob S ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Sep 2002 23:11:33 -0700 From: "Victor Johnson" Subject: RE: joni underrated? / how i discovered joni > superb so it was a great show & now jeff & i are married & i drag him to > jonifest! so far there is no bobfest but maybe one of these days...lol) > > What do you mean there is no bobfest!?!! I attended the first one in New York City this April! Bobfest rules~~!!! Victor ps. Long live the Bobs! - --- Victor Johnson - --- waytoblu@mindspring.com "Roses wait for the springtime, They sleep beneath the ground. They hear March winds a callin' For the sun to come around."vlj Visit http://www.cdbaby.com/victorjohnson ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 09 Sep 2002 22:35:20 -0700 From: Michael Paz Subject: Re: joni underrated? / how i discovered joni It's the NeilandBob's that are REALLY scary! Paz (in the chat room alone) on 9/9/02 11:11 PM, Victor Johnson at waytoblu@mindspring.com wrote: >> superb so it was a great show & now jeff & i are married & i drag him to >> jonifest! so far there is no bobfest but maybe one of these days...lol) >> >> > What do you mean there is no bobfest!?!! I attended the first one in New > York City this April! Bobfest rules~~!!! > > Victor > > ps. Long live the Bobs! > > > > > > > > > > --- Victor Johnson > --- waytoblu@mindspring.com > "Roses wait for the springtime, > They sleep beneath the ground. > They hear March winds a callin' > For the sun to come around."vlj > > Visit http://www.cdbaby.com/victorjohnson ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 09 Sep 2002 22:36:24 -0700 From: Michael Paz Subject: Re: Off Night Backstreet It wasn't my long black hair, I love that song too. Paz on 9/9/02 10:55 AM, Erica Trudelle at humbletiger@hotmail.com wrote: > hello everyone! > > Just wondering who really did leave her "long black hair" in the bathtub > drain? fiction or non-fiction?? I've really grown to LOVE this song...soo > damn good! > > -Erica > NP: Stevie : Talking Book ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 10:59:45 +0700 From: Angela.Takats@reuters.com Subject: joni under-rated Hey Listers, I have been enjoying the posts from some of the younger JMDLers about how difficult it is to find people of 'our generation' who "get it" when it comes to joni. Sometimes I wonder what is wrong with me - why I dont' even want to give 'modern music' a try. I mean - i would much prefer to sit and listen to "Everything comes and goes, marked by lovers and styles of clothes..." than go out and try to find some new talent - who could compare? My friends - my age - tell me I am a musical snob, they also tell me I am insane when I tell them that if I have a daughter - I will call her joni ;-) (ok - maybe I take things a little too far at times) And even though I am branching out with my music taste (sticking to the same era - but my CD collection is no longer joni-only) (can u believe that when I moved to Bangkok I had 10 cds - ALL of them joni!!!) it's joni I always come back to....I find myself quoting joni songs when my friends are having a hard time - her lyrics are the bible - I mean, there seems no experience that a person can go thru that joni hasn't been thru and written a super song about. I am yet to successfully recruit a joni fan / brainwash someone into loving joni. But it's nice to be the only fan I know sometimes... like someone posted before - it makes your friends cut out articles in newspapers for you - or call u up to tell you they saw something about joni on tv. Joni becomes a part of you - you know what I mean? And that means nasty ex-boyfriends who cheated on you with your best friend - can NEVER escape the memory of you - cos there's always some sad joni song playing on some radio station someday that is gonna remind him of you.... Ange (with obvious issues;-) Bangkok, Thailand - ------------------------------------------------------------- --- Visit our Internet site at http://www.reuters.com Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender, except where the sender specifically states them to be the views of Reuters Ltd. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Sep 2002 21:57:47 -0700 From: "kakki" Subject: Re: joni under-rated Hi Ange, Good to see you here again. This cracked me up: > And that means nasty ex-boyfriends who cheated on you with your best friend - can NEVER escape the memory >of you - cos there's always some sad joni song playing on some radio station someday that is gonna remind him of >you.... I can definitely say that with my old boyfriends this is my most enduring revenge ;-) Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 01:29:39 -0500 From: Franco Subject: re: Mulholland Drive - Some Joni Content I rented this DVD just last week and my first impression was about the same as some of the other list members..."What the hell was that all about?" Now.. I'm not a big David Lynch fan. I find his world is just a bit too bizzare for my taste.But, I can honestly say that this was the first one of his movies that I actually "got". Although, I'll admit the pieces didn't start falling into place until a few hours after I watched it. I actually went back a day later and watched it again, just to make sure I was on the right track. Here's what I came up with: The entire first 3/4 of the picture is actually Diane Selwyn's dream (or possibly what was going through her mind as she lay dying on her bed from a poorly aimed self-inflicted gunshot). In this dream she is Betty, an idealized version of herself (even her normally crooked teeth are now perfect), in the relationship that she had hoped for with Camilla. The last 1/4 of the movie are the events as they actually happened in "real life": The failed relationship with Camilla, the limo ride to the party on Mulholland Drive, the hit she has put on Camilla, etc. All of these elements appear in the dream in a different fashion. Even people that she casually spied at the party (The Cowboy, the blonde who kisses Camilla, Coco) wind up appearing in the dream, ala "Wizard of Oz". If you watch the movie again, you'll see Lynch does indeed provide enough clues to put the story together. At any rate, I think Naomi Watts gave an incredible performance. I'll be looking for more stuff from her. The fact that this thread appeared here got me to thinking...in a way Joni used a similar theme over 20 years ago in Harry's House/ Centerpiece. In the song (as I interpret it) Harry's wife slips into a daydream of the life she dreamed of ( a little cottage somewhere), while her real life is in shambles. Just a few thoughts, Franco >Michael, how can you "enjoy" it if you didn't "GET" it? Lynch is NOT >high-minded. Lynch is NOT a magician. Lynch is the biggest >one-note-rip-off ever given a blank check. You were TAKEN, Michael! Wake >up! ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 01:29:53 -0400 From: "Bree Mcdonough" Subject: Re: About Joni being underrated! e. >This is the form most pop songs follow these days. It's >amazing to me when I listen to the radio to see this >form repeated over and over, song after song. A bridge >is used to change the pace a bit, grab the listener's >attention, and build momentum for a big chorus to >finish. Great lesson, Anne!! I know nothing about song structure except...I know a good song when I hear one. Speaking of innovative and breaking the mold a bit...here is a great trivia question that gets people thinking (and humming): Which Beatles song starts out with the chorus? Prayers and good thoughts coming your way...... Bree >lots of love >Anne _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 01:51:45 -0400 From: "Bree Mcdonough" Subject: re: Mulholland Drive - Some Joni Content >If you watch the movie again, you'll see Lynch does indeed provide enough >clues to put the story together. At any rate, I think Naomi Watts gave an >incredible performance. I'll be looking for more stuff from her. This sounds good anyway. Best explanation.. yet. Now will you explain Zentropa to me? Actually, I saw very little of this movie, I fell asleep during it.. (talking about truly being lost!) I awakened during the lesbian scene, watched that part...and fell into slumber again. I did like the *feel* of the movie...that L.A...Sunset Boulevard....kooky west coast feeling. (I'll be eager to hear your take on it Kakki) Bree >The fact that this thread appeared here got me to thinking...in a way Joni >used a similar theme over 20 years ago in Harry's House/ Centerpiece. In >the song (as I interpret it) Harry's wife slips into a daydream of the life >she dreamed of ( a little cottage somewhere), while her real life is in >shambles. > >Just a few thoughts, >Franco > > > > > > > > > > > > >Michael, how can you "enjoy" it if you didn't "GET" >it? Lynch is NOT > >high-minded. Lynch is NOT a magician. Lynch is the biggest > >one-note-rip-off ever given a blank check. You were TAKEN, Michael! >Wake > >up! _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Sep 2002 23:57:55 -0700 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: conversations some jc so many great conversations... Susan wrote "By the way since the subject line is "Blue Motel Room" - just let me say how much I love this song! I would love to perform this sometime" Susan you would be GREAT doing this song Immy wrote "I will keep you all updated with how it is going..." Count me in on those who would like to read this when its done Barbara wrote "Kate, listened to your CD all afternoon yesterday. It is soooooo fabulous. What a gift!!!!" T hank you so much, a high compliment coming from such an incredible singer! Garrett wrote "The dwarf in the wheelchair??" LOL. Just as things started going awry in this film I mentioned that the only thing missing was a dwarf (that's when he lost me on twin peaks too)...next thing i know there's a dwarf...i love a dreamy ethereal movie but give me a GOOD STORY ! a very rare commodity these days... not mean a thing (I Am The Walrus, Glass Onion, etc) but may rather be a study about the interplay of words. rose wrote "Songcatcher I'm watching this movie on HBO" Caught that movie when it whipped through town...loved it...guess i'm slipping into my irish/kentucky heritage after all these years.. Steve wrote: Okay about Joni being underrated; I think everyone has made some fair comments. To be conclusive though I think that maybe she is more well known in the USA and among older people. I think maybe you are right. Except look at the map of the world on jmdl.com...lots of europeans! anne wrote: Oh, which brings me to next week. Actually, I'm scheduled to have surgery on Wednesday next week. Time to take this stupid tumor out." I will be sendng many healing good thoughts your way... anne again "I was going to get into this in some detail in my workshop at JoniFest." this is fascinating anne, can't wait til next years fest I'd love to hear what you have to say on this subject...there are some pretty amazing dissections out there of how to write a hit song...i mean totally by the numbers...number of syllables in places...kind of nauseating actually... Bob S- your work & thought was amazing...too much to respond to but I agree with your concepts of opening & closing ------------------------------ End of onlyJMDL Digest V2002 #261 ********************************* ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she? (http://www.siquomb.com/siquomb.cfm)