From: les@jmdl.com (onlyJMDL Digest) To: onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Subject: onlyJMDL Digest V2002 #174 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/onlyjoni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com Unsubscribe: mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe onlyJMDL Digest Sunday, June 16 2002 Volume 2002 : Number 174 The Official Joni Mitchell Homepage, created by Wally Breese, can be found at http://www.jonimitchell.com. It contains the latest news, a detailed bio, Original Interviews, essays, lyrics and much much more. The JMDL website can be found at http://www.jmdl.com and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- [none] [Murphycopy@aol.com] Re: joni songs, anyone? ["Mark or Travis" ] Refuge of the Roads + other Joni videos ["Laurent Olszer" ] Re: joni songs, anyone? [Catherine McKay ] Re: JMDL Digest V2002 #253 - Off-Key, On-purpose? [Catherine McKay ] Re: JMDL Digest V2002 #253 - Off-Key, On-purpose? ["Mark or Travis" ] Re: JMDL Digest V2002 #253 - Off-Key, On-purpose? ["Mark or Travis" ] Off key, on purpose? [] Re: Refuge of the Roads + other Joni videos [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2002 03:33:30 -0400 From: Murphycopy@aol.com Subject: [none] Bryan wrote: << I wonder about the assumption about the vocal in Down to You. I have always thought the 'flatness' or "off-keyness" of that line is quite deliberate. >> I'd just like to add yes, yes and yes to this. And me, too! When Joni sings, "lay down an impression" and then seques to the flatness or whatever of "and your lonliness," I also have always thought that she was trying to express a certain world-weariness that -- when I think about it now -- would have been impossible to convey if she had "sung" the line in the way people were used to hearing her sing lyrics up to that point in her career. I also think it may be the first time she experimented with that textured part of her voice that has come to be thought of as her cigarette voice . . . Everything comes and goes, marked by lovers and styles of clothes. God, I love this song so much, I think I am going to have to perform it at Jonifest. Can I bring my own pianist? In other news, I am visiting a sick (but getting better) friend in Rhode Island. Another friend took me out tonight to that juke joint Alison likes so much and I discovered something I haven't seen in years . . . Joni on the jukebox! It was The Magdelene Laundries, of all things. From the Chieftans' CD. The joint was hopping, though, it being a Friday night and all, so I couldn't bring myself to play such a tragic bummer of a song, even if it is a masterpiece. Plus, I've never been able to enjoy either of Joni's versions since I heard Les Ross sing the song at Jonifest 2001. ;-) Have a great rest of the weekend. --Bob ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2002 00:43:19 -0700 From: "Mark or Travis" Subject: Re: joni songs, anyone? > Hello, > I had heard thru the grapevine that *We have no secrets* by Carly Simon was about Joni. > > *Some child came you never asked for her to come. > She drank a pint of your rum. > And later when you told me, you said she was a bore... > > Joni a bore? Surely it is about somebody else or Miss Simon is a jealous type...and with good reason. Joni looks blows most peoples out of the water. Just an opinion. > Cat I refuse to believe that Carly had Joni in mind when she wrote that verse. I could be wrong but until Ms. Simon herself says so, I don't believe it. Hmmm....maybe I should write to 'Ask Carly' again.... Mark E in Seattle ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2002 10:20:55 +0100 From: "Laurent Olszer" Subject: Refuge of the Roads + other Joni videos Hi y'all, I own the Refuge of the Roads 83 LD (laser disc). It is wonderful except the sound quality which sounds more like a 5th generation tape than a CD. My other LDs sound fine, just this one seems to be a lemon. Does anybody have the same problem with that LD? I notice that Refuge of the Roads is also available used on VHS. Does anybody own it and what's the sound quality like? Shadows & Light: both the DVD and the LD don't have Woodstock. Did I dream or wasn't Woodstock on the VHS? What happened? Grace of My Heart: this movie features Joni as composer/performer. Can anybody recommend it? Under the Covers DVD (2002): Looking at CD Universe under CSN&Y I found this DVD which also mentions Joni as performer. Has anybody seen it? Thanks Laurent PS: Watching that Refuge of the Road last night made me wonder whether the U in SIQUOMB (which she undoubtedly is) could stand for "untouchable" in addition to "undisputed". ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2002 09:43:01 EDT From: Jennymac48@aol.com Subject: Re: onlyJMDL Digest V2002 #173 "....Joni flat, blah blah blah..." I remember one piece of info where Joni was recording or something and people were scurrying around trying to fix equipment and she finally said "what's up?" and some techie explained there was a problem with the system and Joni said "Oh, that's probably just me singing off-key (or she said flat, I don't remember which)" Remember this, anyone else? Love JennyMac ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2002 10:55:38 -0400 From: "Sherman" Subject: her friend Jackson Browne "Fountain of Sorrow" by her pal Jackson Browne is another tune about our Joan.( that's what I heard) NP: Joni-DJ's Reckless Daughter ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2002 10:57:00 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: joni songs, anyone? - --- Mark or Travis wrote: > > Hello, > > I had heard thru the grapevine that *We have no > secrets* by Carly Simon > was about Joni. > > > > *Some child came you never asked for her to come. > > She drank a pint of your rum. > > And later when you told me, you said she was a > bore... > > > > Joni a bore? Surely it is about somebody else or > Miss Simon is a jealous > type...and with good reason. Joni looks blows most > peoples out of the > water. Just an opinion. > > Cat > > I refuse to believe that Carly had Joni in mind when > she wrote that verse. > I could be wrong but until Ms. Simon herself says > so, I don't believe it. I'm not sure who said what first, or I'd have done a better editing job on this response (sorry, everyone). I don't know much about Carly Simon, so it's hard to offer an opinion on this (anyway, what is an opinion really worth,after all - which means mine is as good as anyone else's?) Somehow, I don't think of Joni as a rum-drinker, to begin with (after all, it was a tequila anaconda, and 17 glasses, Rhein Wine (or is it Rhine?) I can't, off the top of my head, think of any rum references (even in Blue or The Dawntreader, with their nautical references - there's nary a Yo-ho-ho in "The Pirate of Penance" for that matter, heh-heh.) Maybe it's metaphorical, so maybe it doesn't matter. Do I think Joni is a bore? Not me, no way, no how! But maybe to people who don't want to listen to people talkin' and squawkin' all the time, or doing a lot of self-analysis (out loud maybe), she could be seen that way. Maybe it could be perceived as whining, which gets boring if it's happening all the time - except that Joni always adds something humourous to the mix and somehow, I get the feeling that, however she is in public when she tells her stories while she's tuning her guitar, she is probably pretty much the same in private. Despite the fact that there are many parts of Joni's life that she keeps private, she also seems to be very open with people. The stories from people on this list who have met her and talked to her seem to confirm that she's pretty much the same person talking to them as individuals, as she is when she's talking on stage. Boring? Not to me. But suppose she dominates the conversation - and I think we can pretty much agree that she does that a lot. That could piss some people off. It could definitely make people jealous. I suppose they might call it boring, because it's a lot easier to call someone else a bore than to admit that you're jealous. Why would Carly refer to Joni as "some child" though? Wouldn't Carly and Joni be about the same age? Unless she meant it metaphorically as in "flower child"? Somehow it sounds as if it could be about a younger woman, a brief flirtation that's over now. If it is about Joni, it seems pretty petty to me. ______________________________________________________________________ Post your ad for free now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2002 11:04:17 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: JMDL Digest V2002 #253 - Off-Key, On-purpose? - --- BRYAN8847@aol.com wrote: > I wonder about the assumption about the vocal in > Down to You. I have always > thought the 'flatness' or "off-keyness" of that line > is quite deliberate. Not > as obviously deliberate as the semi-comical and > off-key "I got the blues > inside and outside my head" in Blue Motel Room, but > deliberate nonetheless. > I'm not claiming Joni has (or ever had) perfect > pitch of course, but I think > she is brave and honest enough as a singer to utter > off-key sounds, > especially when its add to emotion of the lyric. > I've got a question for the professional musicians or audiophiles, or people who know these kinds of things. When does it stop being bending a note, and start being off-key or flat? I'm confused, because, to me, Joni is never flat. Whatever she does, she does deliberately and it sounds right to me. Is it all a matter of perception? I've heard people singing way flat and it's obvious that it's flat - but to me, this isn't the case with Joni. How far off does someone have to be before they pass bending and get straight into flat? I suppose if you're singing classical music, you have to be bang on the note, so bending is a no-no. (I love that "I've got the blues inside and outside my head" bit - the singing so matches what she's saying.) NP, my daughter singing nasally and off-key, but deliberately so (at least, I hope it's deliberate!) - now *that's* annoying! ______________________________________________________________________ Post your ad for free now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2002 12:29:02 EDT From: Marksa973@aol.com Subject: Re: her friend Jackson Browne In a message dated 6/15/2002 10:56:13 AM Eastern Daylight Time, sherman@netrax.net writes: << "Fountain of Sorrow" by her pal Jackson Browne is another tune about our Joan.( that's what I heard) >> Pal? Judging from the story behind "Not To Blame," she hates his guts. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2002 12:59:22 -0400 From: "Sherman" Subject: Fw: her friend Jackson Browne "Fountain of Sorrow" by her pal Jackson Browne is another tune about > our Joan.( that's what I heard) >> > > > > Pal? Judging from the story behind "Not To Blame," she hates his guts. > I know, I was being facetious. I thought everyone would get it. Janine > > << > > ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2002 10:31:29 -0700 From: "Mark or Travis" Subject: Re: JMDL Digest V2002 #253 - Off-Key, On-purpose? > I'm not claiming Joni has (or ever had) perfect pitch of course, but I think > she is brave and honest enough as a singer to utter off-key sounds, > especially when its add to emotion of the lyric. Listening to her sing the first verse of 'Drycleaner from Des Moines' on the 'Shadows and Light' DVD recently, accompanied only by Don Alias on drums, her pitch sounded pretty darn good to me. But then I'm no great musical expert. By the way, I purchased this DVD from Musiculture in Singapore via Ebay. I got it for $34.99 and had no problems. Others on the list have purchased the S&L DVD from this source and have also had good results. I was in Silver Platters a couple of weeks ago and found it for $43.99 so I congratulated myself on getting a good deal. Count me in with the group that feels the sound of that last note of 'People's Parties' sounds strange because of the dissonance of the harmonies. Also bending notes has become a time honored tradition in pop music. I was listening to an early Streisand record on the way home yesterday and I had to marvel at the incredible quality of her voice and the seeming ease with which she maneuvers it up and down. Another singer I'm just discovering is Anita O'Day who seems to be able to pick any note in her range and hit it with dead-on accuracy, sometimes with amazing speed, ricocheting like a bullet from note to note. Annie Ross can do this as well. Joni's live rendition of 'Drycleaner' and also 'Trouble Man' reminds me of this type of singing. I used to think Joni was an incredible composer and lyricist but not a particularly great singer. My opinion on that score has changed considerably in the last few years. I wonder if all of you have had anything to do with that? I have to make a comment about Judy Collins before I stop. I heard her on an NPR radio program a few months ago sing 'America the Beautiful'. Her voice was gloriously clear, strong and on-pitch. She's someone else I've come to have tremendous respect for recently. There was a time when I believe the voice was going downhill. 'Hard Times for Lovers' sounded like she was going flat on almost every note to me. But Jerry Notaro pointed out that she had the problem corrected and seems to have bounced back admirably. Back when she recorded 'Both Sides Now', Judy was recording great songs from some of the best writers of the day, singing them beautifully with conviction and originality. In spite of whatever history is between them, Judy was instrumental in getting Joni's songs out into the mainstream and I think both artists would acknowledge the benefits that both have reaped from their professional relationship. I'm just now catching up on list mail. I had a bad reaction to an anti-depressant medication and was not inclined to read email much for a few days. Finally feeling like my old self again. Supposed to try Wellbutrin next but am just a little gun-shy. Different drug, different chemicals it affects so maybe it will be all right. Spare me a positive thought if any of you can. Mark E in Seattle ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2002 10:46:42 -0700 From: "Mark or Travis" Subject: Re: joni songs, anyone? > Why would Carly refer to Joni as "some child" though? > Wouldn't Carly and Joni be about the same age? Unless > she meant it metaphorically as in "flower child"? > Somehow it sounds as if it could be about a younger > woman, a brief flirtation that's over now. > > If it is about Joni, it seems pretty petty to me. > The incident Carly describes in 'No Secrets' always sounded like a somewhat tawdry one night stand to me. That's the main reason why I never thought it was about Joni. I would imagine that James Taylor had sexual encounters with more than one woman before he married Carly or even before he met Joni. To say that this one single incident that may not even be about James in the first place (it seems likely since Carly and James were newly married when 'No Secrets' was released but still it's pure speculation on anyone but Carly's part) refers specifically to Joni seems like a pretty long stretch to me. And I really don't think Carly is that petty to begin with. 2 and half cents from Mark E in Seattle > ______________________________________________________________________ > Post your ad for free now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2002 10:53:42 -0700 From: "Mark or Travis" Subject: Re: JMDL Digest V2002 #253 - Off-Key, On-purpose? > (I love that "I've got the blues inside and outside my > head" bit - the singing so matches what she's saying.) > It seems to me that she's speaking the word 'outside' rather than singing it on that line. That's a technique that Joni uses occasionally, particularly in live performance. Rickie Lee Jones does this a lot as well. Listen to any of her recordings of 'We Belong Together.' She slips in & out between singing & speaking in several places on that song. Mark E in Seattle ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2002 14:33:49 EDT From: AzeemAK@aol.com Subject: Re: JMDL Digest V2002 #253 - Off-Key, On-purpose? In a message dated 15/06/02 18:54:08 GMT Daylight Time, mark.travis@gte.net writes: << It seems to me that she's speaking the word 'outside' rather than singing it on that line. That's a technique that Joni uses occasionally, particularly in live performance. Rickie Lee Jones does this a lot as well. Listen to any of her recordings of 'We Belong Together.' She slips in & out between singing & speaking in several places on that song. >> Not for the first time, we have to look to German to supply the "mot juste" for this style - Spraechgesang, as I'm sure plenty of you will know. The technique is very effective in the right context, and of course is a godsend to people who couldn't hit a note with an elephant gun at 6 paces. Azeem in London NP: [to the tune of Amazing Grace] Three-Nil, Three-Nil, Three-Nil, Three-Nil... ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2002 13:20:54 -0700 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: Bowie and the future >>Anyone else have any musings about the musical future? And especially of how artists will fare?<< There is a recently (in the last few years) formed group called the Future of Music Coalition. They have a yearly conference in Wash DC (I think). I haven't been to one yet, but have a friend who is part of it. I think its a great time to be an independent artist, though it takes a lot of work. On the other hand there is so much corporate consolidation going on, such as clear channel radio buying up radio stations around the country and also performance venues. A 2000 report by the RIAA (http://www.riaa.com/MD-Cons-5-00-MCT.cfm) stated "Of note was the 45 and over segment, which more than doubled its share of the market since 1990, rounding out the decade with a 23.8% share of the market. This past decade clearly revealed the significance that the baby boom generation places on music in their lives." There was a recent quote similar to this in Rolling Stone & I saw a news program last week that that mentioned the same thing. As an artist, I chose not to put my stuff up on mp3 mainly because I did not like their business practices towards artists (another story). I will continue to record in the CD format...at least in my lifetime & for my audience, think there will still be a market for CDs. I know, if I like an artist, I want the CD with the words, photos, etc. ... not just the music. My first instinct, in reading Bowie's comments was remembering how some said that computers would replace humans...well we know how quite the opposited happened, computers created a whole new industry... I do agree that people will always want togo to live shows. That is the origin of music, before it ever turned into something about a business...people getting together to sing & play together... ******************************************** Kate Bennett www.katebennett.com sponsored by Polysonics Discover the Indies at Taylor Guitars: http://www.taylorguitars.com/artists/awp/indies/bennett.html ******************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2002 16:26:27 -0500 From: Subject: Off key, on purpose? Catherine wrote: "I've got a question for the professional musicians or audiophiles, or people who know these kinds of things. When does it stop being bending a note, and start being off-key or flat? I'm confused, because, to me, Joni is never flat." Catherine, for me, that's the $64,000,000 question. I think Joni *has,* in fact, "bent" or altered a note on purpose so that it was technically flat, and to good effect. An excellent example of that has already been mentioned in this thread: the line about laying down an impression of your loneliness in "Down to You." *That,* I think, *was* intentional, and done to good effect (didn't last too long; wasn't uncomfortably dissonant; let us in on the "joke," if we were listening carefully). However, the last "away" in "Peoples' Parties" has always struck me, and probably always will strike me, as simply and inalterably FLAT. If that note is indeed in the main melody line, as I think it is, it's flat. If the it's in one of several harmony lines she is singing against the melody line, it's flat. Whatever innovations with harmony she she may or may not be undertaking in the song are irrelevant, to my mind. Flat is flat--and this note is *flat.* Am I getting a little peevish here, or what??! ;-) The note in "Peoples' Parties" has always surprised me, precisely because, as I would be the first to point out, Joni's sense of pitch is usually so good. As is, may I say with the proper amount of modesty, my own. The note in "Down to You," I can understand. It fits with the song and the mood, without seeming to be a mistake. But this one, if it's intentional, I simply don't get. Mary P., Getting crotchety in her old age. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2002 00:39:24 EDT From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: Refuge of the Roads + other Joni videos **I notice that Refuge of the Roads is also available used on VHS. Does anybody own it and what's the sound quality like?** Well, I'm no audiophile, but I own an original VHS copy and I thought it sounded fine, even on my cheap little TV/VCR combo. > > **Grace of My Heart: this movie features Joni as composer/performer. Can > anybody recommend it?** Haven't heard the whole thing, Laurent, so I can't comment. Joni's contribution is "Man From Mars", an earlier recording than the one that made it onto TTT, and far better. Joni played piano and sang and the CD was released, then recalled and Joni's vocal was replaced by Kristen Vigard. Still very pretty with her singing it. The Joni version CD is pretty easily found on E-Bay. > > **Under the Covers DVD (2002): Looking at CD Universe under CSN&Y I found > this > DVD which also mentions Joni as performer. Has anybody seen it?** > Yes, this is the promotional DVD that accompanies Henry Diltz' exhibit and features music from the artists whose photographs he took. I haven't seen the actual presentation of the DVD, I'm sure what you're going to get is a montage of the Diltz photos of Joni accompanied by a track from one of Joni's records, Blue is what I would guess. Bob, back in Greenville & staying up WAY past his beddy-bye time... NP: Weezer ------------------------------ End of onlyJMDL Digest V2002 #174 ********************************* ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she?