From: les@jmdl.com (onlyJMDL Digest) To: onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Subject: onlyJMDL Digest V2002 #169 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/onlyjoni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com Unsubscribe: mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe onlyJMDL Digest Tuesday, June 11 2002 Volume 2002 : Number 169 The Official Joni Mitchell Homepage, created by Wally Breese, can be found at http://www.jonimitchell.com. It contains the latest news, a detailed bio, Original Interviews, essays, lyrics and much much more. The JMDL website can be found at http://www.jmdl.com and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: through the wall (some more stuff) [Julius Raymond ] Through the wall, sort of [AzeemAK@aol.com] Re: Through the wall (sjc) [RobSher50@aol.com] Re: through the wall (sjc) [RobSher50@aol.com] Re: through the wall (sjc) [RobSher50@aol.com] Re: joni's best guitar playing [Dflahm@aol.com] Re: through the wall (some more stuff) [anne@sandstrom.com] Re: Joni - she talks too much ["Victor Johnson" ] Impossible Dreamer [Dave Cuneo ] Odd sounds [Dave Cuneo ] Re: Small Joni in Fiction reference [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: Impossible Dreamer [Engwall57@aol.com] Re: jewels [Engwall57@aol.com] Re: through the wall (sjc) ["Grace" ] Re: Through the wall (sjc) ["Grace" ] Re: through the wall ["Kate Bennett" ] re: Joni's best guitar playing ["c Karma" ] Re: through the wall (one last point) ["Garret" ] Seafood Lover's Guide ["William Waddell" ] Re: Joni ("Hejira") mention in JUNEantha shaber... (Sam Shaber's e-newsletter) ["Timothy Spong" ] Re: Strats [Michael Paz ] Re: (family) jewels ["Mark or Travis" ] Re: through the wall (sjc) ["Brenda" ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 00:22:35 -0700 From: Julius Raymond Subject: Re: through the wall (some more stuff) It seems to me that this is what Ms. Lazyasz meant by "pull a Joplin," mack: "On October 4, 1970, four years and four months after she bolted from Austin, Janis Joplin overdosed in her room at the Landmark Hotel in Los Angeles, having scored a particularly pure batch of heroin. Her career had been virtually meteoric, but her ascent as the first goddess of rock was doused by her sad, lonely death, which followed that of Jimi Hendrix, who'd died two weeks earlier. Jim Morrison would die within a year. Janis was cremated and her ashes were scattered along the Marin County coastline of California." - -Julius > > She didn't pull a Joplin > > > I don't know exactly what this means but she didn't pull anything. She > died. It saddens and angers me to see her referred to in this way. > > > mack ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 09:12:14 +0100 From: "Grace" Subject: Re: Joni - she talks too much - ----- Original Message ----- From: Now Joni and Germaine Greer would be wonderful dinner guests. be prepared to not be able to get a word in edge wise! > > > - --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.370 / Virus Database: 205 - Release Date: 05/06/02 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 04:39:34 EDT From: AzeemAK@aol.com Subject: Through the wall, sort of This has been a very interesting discussion, which has seemed to hinge around two strands. As far as The Biz is concerned, I think pretty much anything Joni says is probably fair comment, as the biz is corrupt, venal, obsessed with short-term gain, etc etc. The strand that exercises me is the pretty much constant dismissing of other musicians and performers (apart from Miles Davis, of course, about whom I have differing views, but I'm not gonna go there :-) Anyway, it occurred to me recently that Joni's career trajectory can be likened, loosely speaking, to that of another superstar who has a very different attitude to his peers and "juniors". Does the following sound familiar?? Started performing in the 60s, part of which he spent slogging around folk clubs. Had songs covered by better known artists before having real success himself. In the 70s he was a colossus, releasing a string of mould-breaking albums, which divided critics at the time, and are now seen as classics. The 80s was a lean period, during which both the work rate and quality declined. The 90s then saw a partial return to form, with albums that were reasonably well received, but commercially didn't exactly set the Thames on fire. OK, I'm talking about David Bowie, and there are plenty of anomalies in that comparison (for one thing, Joni never committed a Tin Machine!). Where I see a big difference is that Bowie has always been a great enthusiast, working with different, often much younger collaborators, championing up-and-coming bands, and generally embracing cultural life. Joni, as has been noted, has been much more reserved (insular, even), making vaguely catty comments about "the competition" and even saying she's a painter first and musician second, which makes NO SENSE to me. This may sound like a judgment, and isn't meant to be - certainly not a judgment about either of them as people; they just approach their art indifferent ways. Where Joni loses out, it seems to me, is that her jaded attitude isn't going to help he creatively. Bowie's 90s albums were variable, and maybe only a fan could love all of them - but they always brimmed over with ideas, brio and enthusiasm - he sounded as if he really enjoyed making them - he was having FUN! So, maybe that would be my advice to Joni - have some fun! Azeem in London NP: USA v South Korea, just ended, 1-1 - USA continue to prosper... ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 05:03:05 EDT From: RobSher50@aol.com Subject: Re: Through the wall (sjc) Dear Grace, Please don't feel that I felt criticized. One thing about this forum is that it is full of strong opinions and the right to disagree. I simply objected to the generalization that it was a "western" thing to value people by the job they do instead of who they are. The ability to speak candidly in debate is something treasured greatly here. I totally agree with what you've written below. I just think that this problem is a worldwide one, not just one limited to Western culture. One reason I feel that Joni is so integrated into her art and her music is the way she pours so much of herself into her work. There are so many questions that we cannoot answer about people who only measure a person's worth by what they do. I admit that it is a serious problem. I assure you that I am one person who does not do that. You are a very sensitive and caring person, Grace. That's why the notion is so objectionable to you. To me, that is a great quality to have as a person! Sincerely, Sherelle In a message dated 06/09/2002 1:16:42 AM Pacific Daylight Time, Grace@tantra.fsbusiness.co.uk writes: > dear me, nothing that was written was a criticism of what you wrote! > > I guess I don't agree that what we do is an extension, necessarily, of what > we are inside. I believe we all hold the light of God inside. In most of us > it is buried to one degree or other. > So the person who commits evil is not showing us the light deep inside. > > Artists who create great work are not by that work good people! Plenty of > art or other good work is produced by racists, facists etc > > Artists who create great work are not by that work good people! Plenty of > art or other good work is produced by racists, facists etc.(Ezra Pound?) > > The only person who did show us what was deep inside was Jesus(and maybe > others). > > (i wish writing in this forum wasn't so damend diffiuclt! Sharing one's > thought about somthing should not automatically be read as criticism of > another person!) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 05:09:09 EDT From: RobSher50@aol.com Subject: Re: through the wall (sjc) Dear Victor, I have to agree with you concerning that "duality" of confidence and unsureness at the same time. I wonder if it comes from the fact that she, and other artists have to reach out to people en masse? When you perform in front of others as a musician, the ability to reach other people becomes so important. I would say that is also true of actors, and anyone else in the public spotlight. Love, Sherelle In a message dated 06/09/2002 6:23:41 AM Pacific Daylight Time, waytoblu@mindspring.com writes: > I think to some degree, she does know what an effect she's had on so many > lives and that she is able to find some peace and contentment from it in > spite of other complications/issues in her life. She may at times, seek > some kind of reassurance, but inside I think she really does know this on a > deep level. There is always that duality of feeling vulnerable and a little > unsure and at the same time, feeling exceedingly confident and engulfed in > your creative efforts. I think that is always there from the beginning and > never really goes away, no matter how many awards or accolades you might > receive. > > And I think, alot of musicians that appear so confident and sure of > themselves in the public eye and show no weaknesses of frailty, ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 05:16:24 EDT From: RobSher50@aol.com Subject: Re: through the wall (sjc) Dear Grace, This is so true.One thing I love about Joni, is that she took us with her through her metamorphosis of trying to learn how to value herself. That is why I love her music so much. She turned something very painful and personal into beautiful works of art. My favorite lyric of hers is: "There's comfort in melancholly When there's no need to explain It's just as natural as the weather In these moody skies today..." I can't tell you how many days of low or no self-esteem those words helped me to get through. You are correct that it is an almost impossible task to learn to love oneself when those around you hve not given you any encouragement. I think this is why we are such a family here. There are so many of us that have not had the acceptance we needed and when we heard Joni's music, it was like a "Aha" moment for us. Sincerely, Sherelle In a message dated 06/09/2002 1:05:26 AM Pacific Daylight Time, Grace@tantra.fsbusiness.co.uk writes: > of course but self esteem isn't that simple! a person can spend their life > doing wondeful works(not just art but say caring for the dying or for > orphans or whatever) and still feel like they are not good enough1 and > there are those in the caring field who do it to make themselves feel > better or to appear good rather than because they feel compassion. Feeling > valuable and worthy and loved has to come from within. However, if one > grows up with people who do not value you, it is going to be a very > difficult, if not impossible, task to learn to value oneself. > > soooo....IF Joni felt not valued as achild, or unloved, or was criticised(I > don't know any of those things), she would have a difficult job valuing > herself as a person and may use her art as a way of gaining what she lacks > and that is doomed to failure. > > yes dr's are valued more than nurses. however, imagine where we would be > without sanitation workers! we all have a role and those roles are > important. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 06:48:12 EDT From: Dflahm@aol.com Subject: Re: joni's best guitar playing I also like rhythm guitar, so I'll vote for DON JUAN'S RECKLESS DAUGHTER and COYOTE. DAVID LAHM ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 04:47:48 -0700 (PDT) From: anne@sandstrom.com Subject: Re: through the wall (some more stuff) > She didn't pull a Joplin, Cobain, or Nyro, she continued to drive through > like a snowplow. I'm sure someone else has pointed this out as well. Laura Nyro died of ovarian cancer, she didn't commit suicide. lots of love Anne ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 8:5:56 -0700 From: "Victor Johnson" Subject: Re: Joni - she talks too much > Now Joni and Germaine Greer would be wonderful dinner guests. be prepared to not be able to get a word in edge wise! Oh no....not the dinner guest thread again... (shudder) Victor - --- Victor Johnson - --- waytoblu@mindspring.com "Roses wait for the springtime, They sleep beneath the ground. They hear March winds a callin' For the sun to come around."vlj Visit http://www.cdbaby.com/victorjohnson ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 09:46:10 -0400 From: Dave Cuneo Subject: Impossible Dreamer Ciao joniphiles, Last night I finally got a chance to set up my stereo equipment in my new place ( I moved from a tiny one bedroom apartment into a recently purchased 4 BR house!) and first thing I put on was Tony Bennett "Songs for the Jet Set", then Joni's "Court and Spark". Boy, "C&S" sounded good! there was a time when if you had asked me what my favorite Joni album was, I would have said "C&S". Today I would say "For the Roses". Anyway, who is the "Impossible Dreamer"? Is there a clue in the line "Give peace a chance"? Ciao, dave. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 09:32:14 -0400 From: Dave Cuneo Subject: Odd sounds Ciao joniphiles, I like the little refrain "dog eat dog" that runs throughout that song from the very beginning - it is very low and hard to hear unless you listen very carefully - I assume it was L. Klein's voice passed through the Fairlight sample machine. I like that album a lot, although I did not buy it until many years after it's release. Dave. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 09:58:31 EDT From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: Small Joni in Fiction reference In a message dated 6/10/2002 12:32:28 AM Eastern Daylight Time, jpalis@kssp.upd.edu.ph writes: > I don't know if this can be classified under Joni in Fiction since it is > an audio track, but since the lyrics can stand on their own, I figured it > can be included in your project. > Joseph, There are quite a few songs that mention Joni...if you mention this one, then you've gotta mention them all, and it's not REALLY Joni in fiction after all. Just my opinion, and if smurph wants to add this as a section, well God bless his pointed little head! :~) Then you have the songs "about Joni", etc...Joni's like Elvis - she's EVERYWHERE! Bob NP: Ani Difranco, "face up & sing" (even my favorite records sound better at the beach!) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 11:45:55 -0400 From: Engwall57@aol.com Subject: Re: Impossible Dreamer In a message dated Mon, 10 Jun 2002 9:50:49 AM Eastern Daylight Time, CuneoDM@XYMID.com writes: > Anyway, who is the "Impossible Dreamer"? Is there a > clue in the line > "Give peace a chance"? Ciao, dave. I think it might refer to John Lennon - "All we are saying, is give peace a chance." Regards, Ruth from Richmond ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 13:11:09 -0400 From: Engwall57@aol.com Subject: Re: jewels In a message dated Sun, 9 Jun 2002 2:08:19 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Murphycopy writes: > > > Magnificent Mags writes: > > << Romeo gazes upon Juliet for the first time at the Capulet fest and says... > > "O, she doth teach the torches to burn bright! > It seems she hangs upon the cheek of night > ******As a rich jewel in an Ethiop's ear****** > > > sound familiar? >> > > > This is very interesting, to say the least. Sounds to me like that bit about > the ruby and the black man's ear that Joni allegedly wrote. Now, I can't help > but wonder . . . > > What's the big deal? As Joni admitted it in "Talk to Me" - " I stole that from Willie the Shake, you know, neither a borrower nor a lender be!" She has also borrowed from the Bible, as in "Love", and probably from a lot of other stuff too. She obviously reads quite a bit. Shakespeare and the Bible are in the public domain. It's not like some heirs are going to sue her for plagiarism. Maybe JMDL should start a Classic Literature in Joni listing. Ruthie ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 19:02:33 +0100 From: "Grace" Subject: Re: through the wall (sjc) - ----- Original Message ----- From: > I have to agree with you concerning that "duality" of confidence and > unsureness at the same time. I wonder if it comes from the fact that she, and > other artists have to reach out to people en masse? When you perform in front > of others as a musician, the ability to reach other people becomes so > important. I would say that is also true of actors, and anyone else in the > public spotlight. not quite the same thing-I have regulalry worked in 'public', talking to up to 200 for two hours. Before hand I ahev felt sick, full of doubt, 'what the f*** do i think i am doing?', 'if they knew what i was really like' etc BUt i go on anyway and then i am off. like i become someone else. confident, amusing( ihaev no idea where that comes from) and I get away with saying stuff that other speakers wouldn't because of the way i deleiver it(so i am told). It would seemt hat a different me just takes over. i imagine that is what it is like for singers etc. - --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.370 / Virus Database: 205 - Release Date: 05/06/02 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 19:05:58 +0100 From: "Grace" Subject: Re: Through the wall (sjc) I simply objected > to the generalization that it was a "western" thing to value people by the > job they do instead of who they are. The ability to speak candidly in debate > is something treasured greatly here. I think soemtimes it might be appropriate to write ALL the thoughts that come into your head when writing! I said in the 'western' world, haveing changed it from 'the world', because I only know about the western world! I am also fairly certain I ahve read about other cultures where worth is not measured this way. However, point taken. perhpas it is a world wide thing and not just a western thing. - --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.370 / Virus Database: 205 - Release Date: 05/06/02 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 12:12:47 -0700 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: Re: through the wall Lazyasz@aol.com (do you have a name?), I liked much of what you wrote, with a few exceptions. I felt this statement to be cruel: >She didn't pull a Joplin, Cobain, or Nyro,< Janis died of a heroin overdose at age 27 Kurt also overdosed on heroin but didn't die...he then shot himself, also at age 27 Laura died of ovarian cancer at age 49 also, >>If she were to hinge her being on perceived notions of her relevance as an artist, she would have long offed herself. < I don't believe any of the above artists died as a result of feeling artistically irrelevant, I think Janis, Kurt, & sadly many other great artists have died at an early age because they used drugs to numb their inner demons & as a result went over that edge... Laura died of cancer. one more comment...>>She didn't have a personality like Laura Nyro where she could just put her muse on hold (Laura changed her primary focus from record making to childrearing and domestic living)<< It isn't a personality difference that allows someone to put their muse on hold to raise a child, it is the incredible demands of raising a child that leaves little time or energy for the muse... ******************************************** Kate Bennett www.katebennett.com sponsored by Polysonics Discover the Indies at Taylor Guitars: http://www.taylorguitars.com/artists/awp/indies/bennett.html ******************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 19:51:46 +0000 From: "c Karma" Subject: re: Joni's best guitar playing While I admit both to not being an expert on technique and my opinions are subjective, I have to consider this thread on the basis of a balance of technical and aesthetic choices. For pure concept as well as chops, I'd have to say that "The Wolf That Lives In Lindsay" is the highwater mark. On balance though, I'd have to go with "Intro/Cotton Avenue" or "Borderline" as my personal favorites with two other songs from "Turbulent Indigo": the title track and "The Sire of Sorrow (Job's Sad Song)" following closely. In live performance, her orchestral guitar transcription of "Just Like This Train" continues to thrill me whenever she plays it. CC "It was the hexagram of the heavens, it was the strings of my guitar." -- JM _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 23:19:47 +0100 From: "Garret" Subject: Re: through the wall (one last point) Lazyasz@aol.com wrote: I don't see a lot of people my age listening to Dylan and Young, but most times when I formally introduce her to people I am able to convince them to listen > LOL, what's the trick?? God i've tried and all i get is a scoffed "what is she on?";-) I think i have only scared friends with my passion for Joni's music! I've spread her to perhaps two friends:) although i'd like to think that many of the others now know the name and might admit that she's talented, just from listening to me talk! GARRET ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 17:05:58 -0500 From: "William Waddell" Subject: Seafood Lover's Guide Attention Joni in Fiction people BBC (book) rick stein's seafood lover's guide recipes inspired by a coastal journey Page 6 Introduction Don't it always seem to go that you don't know what you got till it's gone JONI MITCHELL, "Big Yellow Taxi" WtS _________________________________________________________________ Join the worlds largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 01:21:58 +0000 From: "Timothy Spong" Subject: Re: Joni ("Hejira") mention in JUNEantha shaber... (Sam Shaber's e-newsletter) Touring songwriter-singer-guitarist Sam[antha] Shaber's e-newsletter for June included the following: > >But most of May was spent driving over 9,000 miles in the Mazda, through >mountains, pra[i]ries, farms, salt flats, tunnels, valleys, passes, and >incredible towns such as Echo, UT, La Grande, OR, Hayes, KS, Wendover, NV, >Nederland, CO, Cheyenne, WY, and Malcolm, IA. And very exciting was >pulling off in Colby, KS[,] and driving around while singing the song >"Matthew" by John Denver which put the town on the map for me at a very >young age. (I forgot to bring the Denver disc with me on this trip which >was a bummer to say the least.) >Other highlights of the trip included All-American Day - which I dubbed >when I realized I would spend the day driving from Lawrence, KS to Boulder, >CO[,] through some of the most "American" looking scenery I have ever >viewed. I decided I was allowed to play only very American music that day, >so I started with the Grateful Dead, ("American Beauty,") and then went to >Bruce Springsteen, ("Born to Run,") (and of course what could be better >than driving through Wyoming while listening to songs about growing up near >the Jersey boardwalks... ) Next came Janis Joplin "Pearl," and for the >finale I threw in Joni Mitchell "Hejira." >(I was corrected later by a friend who said that Joni is actually Canadian, >which A) I should have known, and B) might explain why I got completely >lost as soon as I put the cd on.) >(Or it could be that getting to the Boulder Turnpike 36N from 70W is >physically impossible unless you have infrared vision and can read the >teensy wittle sign for 36 amidst all the HUGE signs for 76, but whatever.) > Sam Shaber, www.samshaber.com, is a John Lennon Songwriting Competition Finalist and Songwriting Competition Finalist. Thought some on the list might find the "Hejira" mention of interest. Tim Spong Dover, Del., U.S.A. _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 19:17:14 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jim L'Hommedieu" Subject: Re: through the wall (sjc) Yeah. That's cool. That's you. Why do you expect Kakki to be like you? I came for conversation. You? Lamadoo - --- Brenda wrote: > Personally, I'd rather talk about the music and not > speculate about the person. LAUNCH - Your Yahoo! Music Experience http://launch.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 22:22:26 -0700 From: Michael Paz Subject: Re: Strats Josh My understanding is that is mostly workmanship and the actual parts they go into them. Whgile they look the same and sound similar they end up being different because of the quality of parts and the workmanship. Obviously the American ones are the most expensive because they are the highest paid in labor fees and because the parts are more expensive here. Also they are many other models of strats like The Strat Plus, The Deluxe Strat plus, The Ultra Strat, The Contemporary, etc. I have several. I have a Black Roland Ready American Strat (which has the GL2a Roland pick up in it to play the VG-8 with), a signed Mexican Strat that I won from Tower Records with Eric Johnsons sig on it, a sea foam green Deluxe Strat Plus, and I just traded my Frost Blue Deluxe Strat Plus for a Parker Classic Fly (which is being modified to my specs in SF as we speak YIPPIE!!!!) Hope this helps Paz on 6/6/02 6:43 PM, Josh Eubank at josheubank@mindspring.com wrote: > Anyone on the list own a strat? If so, what are the differences in the three > different types...I've been told there were three, the American, the Japenese, > and the Mexican strat! Do they sound different? > > Josh ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 20:24:41 -0700 From: "Mark or Travis" Subject: Re: (family) jewels All..drama, comedy,slapstick,...all stems > from WTS. The question is whom did WTS steal from. Many different sources - mythologies, older plays, histories. Maybe Shakespeare didn't lift lines or scenes intact from other works but the stories for many of his plays came from other sources. For example, in 'A Midsummer Night's Dream', the play that Bottom and his cohorts perform before Theseus' court at the end is 'Pyramus and Thisbe', a play about lovers who are forbidden to see one another by their parents. It ends with the death of the two lovers. There you have the source material for 'Romeo and Juliet' and I believe 'Pyramus and Thisbe' comes from either Greek or Roman drama or mythology. Almost every artist borrows from other, older sources. It's how the source material is used that counts. 'Silky Veils of Ardor' has bits of lyrics from several old folk songs but Joni rearranges them and weaves them into a completely new work that is uniquely her own. The same with 'Slouching Toward Bethlehem.' I would not call this plagiarism or lack of originality. Mark E in Seattle ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 20:39:54 -0700 From: "Brenda" Subject: Re: through the wall (sjc) On 10 Jun 2002 at 19:17, Jim L'Hommedieu wrote: > Yeah. That's cool. That's you. Why do you expect > Kakki to be like you? I came for conversation. You? > I don't expect anyone to be like me...that would take away all the fun. B n.p.: Travel Channel - Harley Mania - ------------------------------ Coincidence is God's way of remaining anonymous. ------------------------------ End of onlyJMDL Digest V2002 #169 ********************************* ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she?