From: les@jmdl.com (onlyJMDL Digest) To: onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Subject: onlyJMDL Digest V2002 #168 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/onlyjoni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com Unsubscribe: mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe onlyJMDL Digest Monday, June 10 2002 Volume 2002 : Number 168 The Official Joni Mitchell Homepage, created by Wally Breese, can be found at http://www.jonimitchell.com. It contains the latest news, a detailed bio, Original Interviews, essays, lyrics and much much more. The JMDL website can be found at http://www.jmdl.com and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: (family) jewels ["Bree Mcdonough" ] Re: through the wall (sjc) ["Kate Bennett" ] Re: JMDL Digest V2002 #246 ["Bree Mcdonough" ] Re: through the wall (sjc) ["Brenda" ] RE: through the wall (sjc) ["Kate Bennett" ] "Literature in Joni" ["Jim L'Hommedieu \(Lama\)" ] Re: ******As a rich jewel in an Ethiop's ear****** [Mags N Brei ] RE: joni's best guitar playing ["Victor Johnson" ] Re: Small Joni in Fiction reference [] Re: Joni - she talks too much [] Re: through the wall [Lazyasz@aol.com] Re: through the wall (some more stuff) [Lazyasz@aol.com] Re: through the wall (one last point) [Lazyasz@aol.com] Re: through the wall (some more stuff) ["mack watson-bush" Subject: Re: (family) jewels >But I thought we were already aware of her "stealing" this image and >assimilating into her song...I put stealing in quotes as I don't consider >it >stealing, only assimilating what she's been exposed to in her own work. >Surely she doesn't think she could get away with plagiarism of a work as >wide-read as Romeo & Juliet! Well..schucks, that great director....cannot think of his name....he directed ET. YEAH...that guy. He thinks that NOTHING..NOTHING is original since Willie The Shake, anyway. All..drama, comedy,slapstick,...all stems from WTS. The question is whom did WTS steal from. I have no problem with Joni borrowing...what is amazing to me is how she takes borrowed or original thoughts and puts them down on paper and sets those lyrics to music. WOW....her body of work....my gawd she has nothing to be ashamed of. Yeah....give her credit too..when they dangled that carrot in her early days wanting her to sign and give up artistic feedom. Did she bite no...not until she got that deal she wanted. Because it was not about money..it never has been. They GOD for us it wasn't. :-) Bree NP: SEAL..Don't Cry....tonight my baby...always belong...don't cry tonight my baby.... not alone..sweet baby.... >Kakki hasn't been on!) :~D _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 9 Jun 2002 17:30:53 -0700 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: Re: through the wall (sjc) I love how this cool thread title lives on! >Am I the only one who is a bit uncomfortable with this type of supposition?< That quote was kakki's...not mine...it's only her opinion but an opinion that carries some weight as kakki has spent some time with her & as she mentioned is a friend of a friend of joni's...so, in some ways, she can speak a bit about knowing joni as more than a creative artist, as a person, at least a little bit...if it had come from someone who only knew her creative work then i'd tend to agree with you... >The music biz is like any other where people stand to make or lose a lot of money. The biz attracts the very best & the very worst of humanity. Oil, film, software -- any number of things can fill in that blank.< Absolutely, add to that list the toy biz which my husband has worked with for decades...i didn't mean to imply that the music biz is the only biz like this, far from it...i only mentioned this observation in the context of my remark that i am in great awe of how joni, as a young woman, had the strength & vision as a young woman to do things her way, for the most part, in a biz full of snakes & ladders.... ******************************************** Kate Bennett www.katebennett.com sponsored by Polysonics Discover the Indies at Taylor Guitars: http://www.taylorguitars.com/artists/awp/indies/bennett.html ******************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 09 Jun 2002 17:27:05 -0700 From: "Bree Mcdonough" Subject: Re: JMDL Digest V2002 #246 >What a super friendly bunch..Thanks so much...Now about that music in my >head...every single time i have turned on the shower in the past twenty >years Hi Pearl and welcome! Would you mind posting your website again. I checked out your artwork, but could give it only a cursory look and what I saw I liked. Yeah....bends in the roads where I see horses and moons..clouds....green trees...arid dessert...seacliffs...kitty cats.. Bree _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 9 Jun 2002 17:49:07 -0700 From: "Brenda" Subject: Re: through the wall (sjc) On 9 Jun 2002 at 17:30, Kate Bennett wrote: > That quote was kakki's...not mine...it's only her opinion but an > opinion that carries some weight as kakki has spent some time with her > & as she mentioned is a friend of a friend of joni's...so, in some > ways, she can speak a bit about knowing joni as more than a creative > artist, as a person, at least a little bit...if it had come from > someone who only knew her creative work then i'd tend to agree with > you... > > I know it was kakki's...that's why I left in the "kakki said" part. I'm a friend of a friend and have a couple of friends who are friends of friends, been at the same dinner parties and all that ...I just don't think that it puts us in any position to speak in those terms. I'll wait until she writes the book. I've worked with and known more than a couple of people of Joni's stature in the business. And my experience has been, particularly with someone who is as smart as Joni is, that even with friends they know that when they speak they are as good as talking to the public most of the time. That their words fall under a different kind of scrutiny than someone who is not a pop culture figure or icon. Personally, I'd rather talk about the music and not speculate about the person. Brenda - ------------------------------ Coincidence is God's way of remaining anonymous. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 9 Jun 2002 18:22:46 -0700 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: RE: through the wall (sjc) actually it said kakki, "bla bla" which is how i wrote it...but when it got quoted it was not as clear so i wanted to be sure it was clear... anyway...although i do understand your point brenda, & i know many others on this list agree with you...i think from time to time we do go into speculating about about joni as a person, not just her music...probably because her music is so personal...my opinion is that it is all relevant, & when done respectfully & compassionately (as i believe kakki's post was), then it can be food for thought...it was for me & spawned several conversations on the subject that were interesting...but hey, i'm someone who loves to talk about who songs are about because i think its all part of her artistry...& many don't like this either >>I've worked with and known more than a couple of people of Joni's stature in the business. And my experience has been, particularly with someone who is as smart as Joni is, that even with friends they know that when they speak they are as good as talking to the public most of the time. That their words fall under a different kind of scrutiny than someone who is not a pop culture figure or icon.<<< That's interesting, I'd never thought about it that way. I am sure some people are this aware of their every word being public. I have to say that my experience has been quite different. I have to admit I've been told some things by some pretty well known folks & I KNOW they weren't talking to the public & I've also noticed these same folks speaking in similar ways to others too...stuff that was definately not for public consumption...but when i think about it...these things were usually spoken when these folks were in pain about something & it just came out in a moment of vulnerability or maybe trusting someone a bit & needing to talk. I often have been amazed that they were that open actually. It's a good thing I can keep a confidence whether I'm asked to or not...lol. ******************************************** Kate Bennett www.katebennett.com sponsored by Polysonics Discover the Indies at Taylor Guitars: http://www.taylorguitars.com/artists/awp/indies/bennett.html ********************************************- ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 9 Jun 2002 21:29:08 -0400 From: "Jim L'Hommedieu \(Lama\)" Subject: "Literature in Joni" My thought exactly. I'm not the guy to do it, but the site needs the obverse to the "Joni in Literature". Maybe "Literature In Joni"? Sadly, the section would have to start with "Pirates of Penace". :) Lamadoo About Mags' "catch", our own Kate said, yes, one of my fav joni lines, you stood out like a ruby in a black man's ear...but you all knew that i'm sure...very cool observation mags! can this be considered for the joni in literature part of the website? ;~} ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 9 Jun 2002 18:51:09 -0700 (PDT) From: Mags N Brei Subject: Re: ******As a rich jewel in an Ethiop's ear****** - --- Kate Bennett wrote: > mags asked, sound familiar? > > yes, one of my fav joni lines, you stood out like a ruby in a black > man's > ear...but you all knew that i'm sure...very cool observation mags! > can this > be considered for the joni in literature part of the website? ;~} that's what I was hoping Kate :-)) > > ******************************************** > Kate Bennett > www.katebennett.com > sponsored by Polysonics > Discover the Indies at Taylor Guitars: > http://www.taylorguitars.com/artists/awp/indies/bennett.html > ******************************************** ===== You open my heart, you do. Yes you do. - JM Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 09 Jun 2002 19:36:56 -0700 From: "Bree Mcdonough" Subject: Re: JMDL Digest V2002 #246 >Yeah....bends in the roads where I see horses and moons..clouds....green >trees..****.arid dessert*******...seacliffs...kitty cats.. Ok...Texas sweetcakes...definitely an arid dessert would be too dry. I like mine moist. Moist cake.... Thanks for pointing that out. LOL. Bree > > > >_________________________________________________________________ >Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 9 Jun 2002 22:46:24 -0700 From: "Victor Johnson" Subject: RE: joni's best guitar playing IAWK....Incredible Awesome Waycool Kickass > i wondered if it was a song or an expression like lol... > > > > > what is iawk? > > > > I'm so glad you asked. I don't know either. It sounds > like chicken squawking! - --- Victor Johnson - --- waytoblu@mindspring.com "Roses wait for the springtime, They sleep beneath the ground. They hear March winds a callin' For the sun to come around."vlj Visit http://www.cdbaby.com/victorjohnson ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 09 Jun 2002 23:15:35 -0400 From: Gary Zack Subject: Re: joni's best guitar playing I think Denny was saying in short, "I agree with Kate." Best to all, Gary not in Los Angeles yet but getting there...... Kate Bennett wrote: > > denny said "IAWK. The rhythmic feel is incredible," > > what is iawk? > > i just love the sound of a great rhythm guitar...so, naturally as a rule, i > love joni's rhythm guitar songs the bestest...i'd add jonatha brooke to the > list of great rhythm guitarists... > > ******************************************** > Kate Bennett > www.katebennett.com > sponsored by Polysonics > Discover the Indies at Taylor Guitars: > http://www.taylorguitars.com/artists/awp/indies/bennett.html > ******************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 12:27:48 +0800 (PHT) From: Subject: Re: Small Joni in Fiction reference Bob, I was just wondering if you have heard of this European singer Espen Lind. He has a new album out and the first track was called "Joni Mitchell on the Radio". After reading the lyrics of the song, I realized that, like Suzanne Vega's TOM'S DINER (though I hesitate to make him equal to Suzanne), it was just an objective correlative to a feeling -- which is longing for someone. I don't know if this can be classified under Joni in Fiction since it is an audio track, but since the lyrics can stand on their own, I figured it can be included in your project. Joseph np: duke ellington: "come sunday" > Thanks, Rob, but that Joni mention from "Emotionally Weird" by Kate > Atkinson is already featured in the new Joni in Fiction section, along > with 70 other references! (I believe Catherine McCay is credited with > telling us about that one.) But if you want to know what to read next, > take a look at Joni in Fiction. She getting mentioned in some pretty > surprising and even strange places! > > Thanks, > > --Bob ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 12:36:06 +0800 (PHT) From: Subject: Re: Joni - she talks too much There are lots of things > Joni says and does that annoy me. But I take it along > with the things I admire most about her. She has > guts. She's not afraid to speak her mind if something > pisses her off. She steals quotes from other writers - > who doesn't? Maybe she's just showing off so people > can see how well-read she is! ;) I'm not sure I'd want > to get into an argument with her - she might be one of > those people who dominates a conversation too much. This reminds me of an article in a jazz magazine where Joni and Cassandra Wilson were both interviewed. Its clear from the transcripts that Joni dominated the discussion. She occasionally says, "I don't know about Cassandra, but ...." When Cassandra speaks, its always about how Joni influenced her and how she grew up listening to DJRD. But the surprising thing is, Joni's take on things in that interview were so refreshing and unafraid. She said that when she was asked about "jazzing up" her music, she said something to this effect: "O yes, like making a statement in short words like `The wind, the wind La la la la'". I found it hilarious that she can take potshots at her own image of being a verbose songwriter. I still would want to invite her to dinner in case I have the means and influence. Having dinner with her and Germaine Greer, Richard Dawkins, Hortense Calisher and Robert Wilson might be very very interesting. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 01:13:38 EDT From: Lazyasz@aol.com Subject: Re: through the wall look... Joni is a complex person. She didn't have a personality like Laura Nyro where she could just put her muse on hold (Laura changed her primary focus from record making to childrearing and domestic living) She felt as though she had to keep going. Maybe she wanted to continue to distance herself from her influences so they wouldn't come back from the past biting her in the ass when she looked over the results of her career. She has put a hell of a lot on the line in her lyrics and musically. When she perceived Hissing to be the critical failure it didn't end up being, she ran scared and still continued following her muse. But even the most esoteric person can only get so far with aloofness. Maybe she was used or even spoiled by the universal high regard she had received in her early years in the business. When a person who has up to a certain point in their life written essays with an A-grade starts getting Bs and Cs they either feel their writing to such a point that they recklessly yet confidently continue in that style or they conform. I think that even though she knew she was going down that charts, the sad inevitability of that fact was outweighed by the fact that she had more musical miles to travel. As for her powers, again she put a lot on the line with emotions and colors through words and music. And maybe as she woke up day after day in the 80's and 90's that optimism eventually curdled until the cautious optimism she showed about the states of her affairs just withered. So not being strong enough at these points or merely sickened from overanalization of these facts, she eventually pulled up the bridges and rejected those, Laura Nyro/Judy Collins, who she had originally cited as her influences. I just feel that Joni is an incredibly sensitive soul who like many of us masks her insecurities through a brisk and witty facade. All artists don't get rid of their demons souly through writing. I think Laura still had plenty of demons and while Eli, Tendaberry, and Christmas did a lot to alleviate those she like all other artists still had doubts. more to come later...please digest ;) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 01:30:33 EDT From: Lazyasz@aol.com Subject: Re: through the wall (some more stuff) Right now, i'm 20 and I first got into Joni when I was eighteen. I bought the Hits cd right off and I got from Joni what I only get from a few other artists (Kate Bush, Laura Nyro, Bjork...) PURITY! Even Hissing is pure in it's commentary, Hejira in it's philosiphising, and Mingus in it's psychoanalization. She like Laura especially is a pure snow who through the years has seen her share of horrible truths all the while remaining a creative artist. She didn't pull a Joplin, Cobain, or Nyro, she continued to drive through like a snowplow. To stand above the mediocrity around her. How while the press continues to whine about her affects (genre, voice, ego, influence, opinion, relevance) they can't mark Joni the person. I think her survival is linked to that. To her personage rather than her artistry. If she were to hinge her being on perceived notions of her relevance as an artist, she would have long offed herself. Especially during the dark years of the 80's (shudder). ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 01:33:17 EDT From: Lazyasz@aol.com Subject: Re: through the wall (one last point) joni has a following... although she thinks of herself as lone wolf she has a dedicated following of sensative people my age, which I only think is growing. I don't see a lot of people my age listening to Dylan and Young, but most times when I formally introduce her to people I am able to convince them to listen. I have all her 70's work plus some odds and end from every era. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 00:52:17 -0500 From: "mack watson-bush" Subject: Re: through the wall (some more stuff) > She didn't pull a Joplin I don't know exactly what this means but she didn't pull anything. She died. It saddens and angers me to see her referred to in this way. mack ------------------------------ End of onlyJMDL Digest V2002 #168 ********************************* ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she?