From: les@jmdl.com (onlyJMDL Digest) To: onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Subject: onlyJMDL Digest V2002 #157 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/onlyjoni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com Unsubscribe: mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe onlyJMDL Digest Friday, May 31 2002 Volume 2002 : Number 157 The Official Joni Mitchell Homepage, created by Wally Breese, can be found at http://www.jonimitchell.com. It contains the latest news, a detailed bio, Original Interviews, essays, lyrics and much much more. The JMDL website can be found at http://www.jmdl.com and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Non-American, non-English language music ["John van Tiel" ] Joni in Fiction ["Marianne Rizzo" ] Re: onlyJMDL Digest V2002 #155 [Engwall57@aol.com] Ad in the Paper ["Sharon L. Buffington" ] oops ["Sharon L. Buffington" ] Re: Questions for a research paper ["Jim L'Hommedieu \(Lama\)" ] Re: Questions for a research paper [Rick and Susan ] Questions for a research paper [AzeemAK@aol.com] head/heart ["Grace" ] A freebie for you (Joni cover) [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] A continuing discussion and what the research paper is about ["S M" Subject: Non-American, non-English language music Over here in Holland we are literally enclosed by different languages and different musical cultures. Although US and UK productions constitute the majority of what we hear everyday, some none-US and none-UK music has left deep impressions on me over the years. Off-list I have shared some with other listers, but I would love to share some here in the general forum, too - hoping that others are willing to do so as well. First and foremost: Jacques Brel and Barbara (no last name). Barbara is to me in French/France (or rather, was, she died a few years ago) what Joni is in English. Way up and above 'the rest'. Especially her albums from the 1963 -1968 period are pearls. Beautiful lyrics, fantastic clean musicianship and great emotional honesty and depth. I would have a hard time if people would ask me to choose between Joni and Barbara. Just listen to 'Pierre' for a love song. I've been listening to her for over 20 years now and her music has not lost anything of its spellbinding qualities. Jacques Brel has written some of the most gripping songs ever (Ne Me Quitte Pas is almost impossible to ruin by whatever cover version). His lyrical brilliance is unsurpassed to me. and to mention just two others ... Boubacar Traori A griotte singer from Mali. Just guitar and voice, sometimes a little bit of percussion. I have no idea what he is singing when he is singing in Malinese, but I keep playing his 'Kar Kar' and 'Mariana' albums for the sheer beauty of his voice and guitar playing. Herman van Veen A Dutch lyrical singer, violinist and comedian (appreciated in Germany, too) with a voice and lyrics that can go straight to the heart - with me at least but I'm a big sentimental sob at times). I'd be really interested in other off-the-beaten-track preferences on the list. John NP: Barbara - Nantes ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 May 2002 05:07:37 EDT From: AzeemAK@aol.com Subject: Re: Questions for a research paper Hello Stephanie, Taking as read that it's all a matter of opinion, I think your definition of Joni's 3 musical periods does hold water, except that I would definitely put Mingus in the middle period, of which it seems to be in some ways a culmination (not an entirely positive one): the jazz influences that had become more pronounced over the previous three were slap bang in the foreground; lyrically it was more elliptical than ever - contrast Wild Things Run Fast, where the lyrics, by Joni's standards, are much more straightforward; and, to these ears, Mingus is the farthest Joni ever got away from "easy listening", while WTRF is much closer to that rubric. When it comes to quality, for me the middle period is streets ahead of the others, with the exception of Blue, the transitional work, which sees a great leap forward, from "good", "promising" and "loads of potential" to simply "great". From then she was unstoppable through the rest of that decade, after which [those of a nervous disposition please avert your eyes] her brilliant flame cooled appreciably. I will be absolutely delighted if she scales those artistic peaks again, and given that Dylan and Neil Young, whose "fall from grace" was for more precipitous, have pulled rabbits out of hats at a time when all but their biggest fans must have given hope, I wouldn't bet against it. My big reservation is about revisiting her old songs - as far as I'm concerned, the great creative renaissance ain't gonna come from that direction! Azeem in London NP: Nick Drake - Five Leaves Left - Ah, would that this fragile genius had lived long enough to have beginning, middle and end periods... ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 May 2002 05:16:54 -0700 (PDT) From: Nuriel Tobias Subject: Re: they took me away once again Hi Randy, thanks for the tiny homecoming and all. Yes, it's hard to tell what she's smoking on the lakota clip. if you notice the end of the video, the old indian offers a bhang or a peace pipe with weed to a child, and the child refuses to smoke it. that video, in case anyone's missed it, was filmed be the indian kids. Joni only did the editing. thanks again, and lots of lovelife to ya, nuriel - --- Randy Remote wrote: > > >Nuriel Tobias wrote: > >> as for Joni - > >> do you think that joni is alcoholic? The thought has crossed my mind several times. In the Lacota video - is that a joint she's smoking or what? i need to know, because i'm now on NA (narcotic anonimous) and i would like to know more about Joni and her bad girl habits. >> > >I don't think she is an alcoholic. She just doesn't come across as one. >Her fondness for a drink now and then is pretty well documented in >her own songs. I don't remember the Lakota video, but in interviews >she has admitted to smoking the wacky tabacky, and sometimes >receiving artistic inspiration from it. Bad habits? The other weed... >the legal one...definitely hooked...... >Nice to have you back. >RR _____________________________________________________________ Free email, web pages, news, entertainment, weather and MORE! Check out -------------------------------> http://wowmail.com _____________________________________________________________ Promote your group and strengthen ties to your members with email@yourgroup.org by Everyone.net http://www.everyone.net/?btn=tag ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 May 2002 09:41:27 -0400 From: "Marianne Rizzo" Subject: Joni in Fiction >In January, when I first suggested creating a section of the JMDL for >Joni >references in novels, I thought it would just be a list of 5 or >10 books. >Then JMDLers suggested that we also include films, poetry, plays and >TV >shows, so now there are 60 entries with more coming in all the >time, >thanks to alert JMDLers! >And Joni in Fiction is so much more than just a list, thanks to Les >Irvin >and Lori Fye. You can actually click on book and movie graphics >to order >them from Amazon, and you can click on the movie titles to >get more info >about individual films from the Internet Movie Database. >I'd like to thank >Les for giving me the opportunity to make Joni in >Fiction happen. >Poor Les. He couldn't have found a more tech->challenged person to take on >this job! Luckily, Lori Fye stepped in to >save the day. Thanks, Lori! >You've been a godsend! >If I even began to try to thank all the JMDLers who have helped out by >letting me know about Joni mentions they've come across, I'd be >rambling >on longer than an Academy Award winner (And I'd also like to >thank God and >my attorneys . . ."). Thank you all. And please let me >know if I've >screwed up your credits in any way. >So if you haven't seen the new Joni in Fiction feature yet, check it >out. >I think you'll be intrigued at the ways some of the best (and >worst!) >writers and directors of our time have used Joni in their >work. http://www.jmdl.com/fiction >> >And to those who have sent new Joni references and corrections since >yesterday -- I'm working on it, I'm working on it! > --Bob Bob Murphy, Lori, and Les: The joni in Fiction section that you created is TERRIFIC! Thank you. I also like how you have added the names of the JMDLers who contributed to each entry. This gives a personal touch, which is enjoyable. I also found it intriguing to see a book by Jacqueline Susann and Ray Lawrence, entitled "Shadow of the Dolls." I have to say, I have read "Valley of the Dolls" several times (first when I was 16), and other books by Jacqueline Susann and have throughly loved many of them. I will have to read this one too. Anywho, back to the Joni in Fiction work: This is incredible. And the visuals are a treat as well. Everyone, you've got to check this out. Ms. Joni herself will be impressed when she sees it! THANK YOU to all who contributed. Marianne "tearful at the falling of a star. .. . _________________________________________________________________ Join the worlds largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 May 2002 11:54:20 -0400 From: Engwall57@aol.com Subject: Re: onlyJMDL Digest V2002 #155 In a message dated Wed, 29 May 2002 7:18:24 AM Eastern Daylight Time, StDoherty@aol.com writes: >I never got the sense that The Blonde in the Bleachers was Joni. Just an >observation of the music business and the "stars." I definitely heard the >empathy, perhaps the sisterhood, but not that she was the one flipping her >hair. One of those Joni female observations (i.e., danced with the lady with >the hole in her stocking). I agree with you. I am sure this scenario played out dozens (hundreds)of times around Joni, with Joni observing and comparing to her own similar situations. Ruthie ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 May 2002 11:55:23 -0500 From: "Sharon L. Buffington" Subject: Ad in the Paper The following ad in "The Atlanta Journal" is reported to have gotten numerous calls...SINGLE BLACK FEMALE... "Seeks male companionship, ethnicity unimportant. I'm a very good looking girl who LOVES to play. I love long walks in the woods, riding in your pickup truck, hunting, camping, and fishing trips, cozy winter nights lying by the fire. Candlelight dinners will have me eating out of your hand. Rub me the right way and watch me respond. I'll be at the front door when you get home from work, wearing only what nature gave me. Kiss me and I'm yours. Call xxx-xxxx and ask for Daisy." Over 150 men found themselves talking to the Local Humane Society about an eight-week-old black Labrador Retriever puppy. _ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 May 2002 11:59:50 -0500 From: "Sharon L. Buffington" Subject: oops I am sorry. I forgot to put NJC on that previous post... ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 May 2002 14:43:47 -0400 From: "Jim L'Hommedieu \(Lama\)" Subject: Re: Questions for a research paper Stephanie, I apologize for being so philosophical last night about your direct questions. Here I'll answer the remaining ones simply. You asked: >2) Does anyone think that the output has stayed at the same level of quality?> Honestly? No, the early stuff like "Pirates Of Penance" shows that she was learning to write. The latest stuff shows that she's writing with her 'brain' instead of her 'heart'. The middle period, FTR-> WTRF is the platinum era where she outshone every other songwriter of her generation in many, many areas simultaneously. And then you asked: >3) Does anyone think that her best material was produced at the beginning and end of her career?> Not me. See above. Then you asked: >4) Can you recommend to me any specific articles that you feel give an accurate in-depth bio of Joni?> You mean the best overview in a single article? Yes. While my first reaction was to point you to Karen O'Brien's bio, "Shadows and Light," there was a very well-done overview that hits a lot of stuff. It was written by Bill Flanagan for Vanity Fair magazine, published in June 1997. Les has it posted at: http://www.jmdl.com/articles/docs/9706vf.cfm On my computer, it's 23 screens worth but it's never been said better, imo. I just scanned it for a reference to her over-arching inspiration, Mr. Kratzman but it looks like he's not in the article. He's pivotal to understanding the quality control efforts in her lyrics. If I remember correctly, Jim Johanson of jonimitchell.com wrote a wonderful piece about Joni receiving the World Leaders prize from Kratzman in Toronto but for the life of me, I can't find it on the official page. Here's a brief mention of the relationship: http://www.jonimitchell.com/ChildhoodDays.html You go, student. Uncle Lama ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 May 2002 14:15:24 -0700 (PDT) From: Lori in MD Subject: Joni in Fiction (Television) From this website, http://tvguide.aol.com/tv/televisionary/000530a.asp, a mention of Joni on NBC's Providence: - ----- Question: Help. In last weeks season finale of Providence Syd's sister Joanie played a song for her in the hospital. What was the name of the song and who was singing it? Thank you. Televisionary: I believe the song you seek is Joni Mitchell's The Circle Game, which is on the classic album Ladies of the Canyon. (It's also available on the recent collection Hits, a reasonably OK primer for the uninitiated. However, the purist in me insists you buy Ladies.) - ----- Can anyone confirm the above? Thanks, Lori ~ Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 May 2002 14:39:00 -0700 From: Rick and Susan Subject: Re: Questions for a research paper on 5/29/02 4:39 PM, S M at pianogirrrl23@hotmail.com wrote: >2) Would someone care to reclassify these albums into different periods? If so how are those albums unified through the period? I would move the last album of your classifications into the preceding period: For the Roses moves to the beginning, and Mingus moves to the middle. The beginning moves from "folky" simplicity to the person who is ready to work more closely with other musicians to get where she wants to go. Court and Spark marks the tentative beginning of the "jazzy" or experimental period and Mingus is the deepest plunge into that genre. Not that the studio albums in the middle period can all be called "jazzy" of course. The later period contains some of her most "socially-conscious" work and is coloured, in my opinion. by the stability of her long-term relationships. That is, the deep and personal exploration of love's troubles seems to be largely absent. >1) How many of you would make the case that Joni's best creative material was >produced at the 'beginning', 'middle' or 'end' of her career? For me it's the beginning because I can listen to any of those albums at any time and enjoy them. The middle is 50-50 (Hejira is unequalled), and most of the "later" period could be compiled into one, maybe two excellent albums. I may take a lot of flak for dismissing the later period but this is all IMHO. >2) Does anyone think that the output > has stayed at the same level of quality? The level of quality has stayed high without a doubt, but that doesn't mean that everything she's done will appeal to everyone equally. >3) Does anyone think that her > best material was produced at the beginning and end of her career? Beginning and middle. Hope this helps. All the best Ranger Rick ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 May 2002 19:41:12 EDT From: AzeemAK@aol.com Subject: Questions for a research paper Apologies if this is a duplicate - I sent it yesterday and it doesn't seem to have gone through... Hello Stephanie, Taking as read that it's all a matter of opinion, I think your definition of Joni's 3 musical periods does hold water, except that I would definitely put Mingus in the middle period, of which it seems to be in some ways a culmination (not an entirely positive one): the jazz influences that had become more pronounced over the previous three were slap bang in the foreground; lyrically it was more elliptical than ever - contrast Wild Things Run Fast, where the lyrics, by Joni's standards, are much more straightforward; and, to these ears, Mingus is the farthest Joni ever got away from "easy listening", while WTRF is much closer to that rubric. When it comes to quality, for me the middle period is streets ahead of the others, with the exception of Blue, the transitional work, which sees a great leap forward, from "good", "promising" and "loads of potential" to simply "great". From then she was unstoppable through the rest of that decade, after which [those of a nervous disposition please avert your eyes] her brilliant flame cooled appreciably. I will be absolutely delighted if she scales those artistic peaks again, and given that Dylan and Neil Young, whose "fall from grace" was for more precipitous, have pulled rabbits out of hats at a time when all but their biggest fans must have given hope, I wouldn't bet against it. My big reservation is about revisiting her old songs - as far as I'm concerned, the great creative renaissance ain't gonna come from that direction! Azeem in London NP: Nick Drake - Five Leaves Left - Ah, would that this fragile genius had lived long enough to have beginning, middle and end periods... ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 31 May 2002 01:40:16 +0100 From: "Grace" Subject: head/heart someone, jim I think, suggested Joni's later work was done in her head rather than form her heart.(if I understood correctly) The Sire Of Sorrow Come In From The Cold Cherokee Louise Magdalene Laundries Not to Blame Tax free Ethipoia No Apologies Night Ride Home Man From Mars Sex Kills are just a few of those later songs that come to mind that strike me as having been written from the heart. Okay so she isn't banging on about a failed love affair in most,but the heart, at least a more mature one, feels a far greater range of grief and joy. Genrally speaking, i guess one could say there isn't much joy in her songs but then there isn't in most songs. grace - --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.363 / Virus Database: 201 - Release Date: 21/05/02 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 May 2002 21:43:53 EDT From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: A freebie for you (Joni cover) OK, so the first of June is right around the corner...if you're just dying for a Joni cover, there's a new free one to hear by Julian Fleisher, "The Dry Cleaner From Des Moines". I think the guy sounds a lot like our own Wally K. What do YOU think? http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/julianfleisher (Of course, while you're on CDBaby you can get copies of Victor Johnson's and Kate Bennett's CD's, makes a great graduation and/or wedding gift!) ;~) Bob NP: Death Cab For Cutie, "We Laugh Indoors" ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 31 May 2002 03:57:31 +0000 From: "S M" Subject: A continuing discussion and what the research paper is about Hi everyone!!!I am delighted by the response that was generated by my research paper. I really appreciate everybody taking time out of their day to help me out. First of all I would like to address some of the questions posed to me. Jim L'Hommedieu asked me what I meant by "best". I guess best in my dictionary is totally subjective. Whatever period of consecutive Joni albums you consider to be your favorite is what is 'best.' Of course there is always a reason why you consider it to be your favorite, whether it be related to the musics or lyrics. I realize this is an incredibly difficult choice for any Joni fan to make, but if you were forced to make the choice, what would the answer be?There is a reason behind my sacrifical divvying up of Joni's albums. James Webster, makes the case that we tell stories in three different ways; originary, organic, and teleolgical is what they are called. Each story valorizes one period. Originary valorizes the beginning so for example, if I said John Smith reached the peak of his intellectual capacities at the age of two and subsequently his IQ declined throughout his life, this would be originary. Organic valorizes the middle period i.e. The Rise and Fall of Rome. Teleoligcal valorizes the last period which is Beethoven's story (the stuff he wrote when he became deaf and before he died was the best). What I want to do in my period is 1) prove we still tell these stories in popular music of today and 2)apply all three of these stories to Joni's music. Hence, my interest in everyone's opinions. So if anyone else would like to chime in, I would definitely be interested. My reclassification of albums question was met by resounding agreement on the fact that Mingus was the culmination of the 'middle' period. And as an aside, I hate to apply the word 'end' to Joni's music especially since she is NOT dead, that is why I try to always put it in quotes.Thanks againStephanie Morrison - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: Click Here ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 31 May 2002 05:14:29 +0000 From: "S M" Subject: Joni Mitchell: The Complete Poems and Lyrics HiDoes anyone know who wrote the introduction on the inside flap to the book: Joni Mitchell: The Complete Poems and Lyrics? I thought it might be Rex Ray, but that doesn't seem very conclusive.Thanks in advance,Stephanie Morrison - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: Click Here ------------------------------ End of onlyJMDL Digest V2002 #157 ********************************* ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she?