From: les@jmdl.com (onlyJMDL Digest) To: onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Subject: onlyJMDL Digest V2002 #120 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/onlyjoni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com Unsubscribe: mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe onlyJMDL Digest Tuesday, April 23 2002 Volume 2002 : Number 120 The Official Joni Mitchell Homepage, created by Wally Breese, can be found at http://www.jonimitchell.com. It contains the latest news, a detailed bio, Original Interviews, essays, lyrics and much much more. The JMDL website can be found at http://www.jmdl.com and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: Re: is early joni really more melodic [Merk54@aol.com] Re: Re: is early joni really more melodic ["Kakki" ] Re: How does Joni choose her tunings? ["Bree Mcdonough" ] Judy & Joni [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: Judy & Joni [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Shades of Scarlet Conquering [anne@sandstrom.com] Re: Re: Judy & Joni [Reuben3rd@aol.com] Re: is early joni really more melodic ["J.David Sapp" ] EW [Gerald Notaro ] Re: "Pornographic watch?" [Gary Zack ] Re: is early joni really more melodic ["katfud@earthlink.net" ] "Pornographic watches & Priests?" [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: "Pornographic watches & Priests?" [Lori in MD ] Re: Re: "Pornographic watches & Priests?" [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: "Pornographic watches & Priests?" [Lori in MD ] Re: "Pornographic watch?" [dsk ] The Priest, formerly pornographic watch [KJHSF@aol.com] Joni and Judy [KJHSF@aol.com] Re: Joni and Melody. [johnirving ] Re: Joni and Melody. [colin ] Re: is early joni really more melodic [FredNow@aol.com] Re: is early joni really more melodic [FredNow@aol.com] The Priest [Steve Dulson ] Re: The Priest [Lori in MD ] Re: The Priest [Steve Dulson ] "Pornographic watch?" ["Kate Bennett" ] Re: [NortheastJonifest] Re: another member of the Sherelle fan club and Jonif... [FMYF] Re: [NortheastJonifest] Re: another member of the Sherelle fan club and Jonif... [AsharaProducLL] Re: "Pornographic watches & Priests?" ["Mark or Travis" ] Re: Joni and Judy ["Mark or Travis" ] Re: The Priest, formerly pornographic watch ["Mark or Travis" ] RE: Priests ["Kate Bennett" ] Re: Is early joni really more melodic ? [Bobsart48@aol.com] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2002 03:03:15 -0400 From: Merk54@aol.com Subject: Re: Re: is early joni really more melodic Kakki, I definitely agree with you on some of this. I think the most obvious demonstration of this would be the comparison of Joni's two versions of Man From Mars - The TTT version, and the her version from the Grace of My Heart sound track. While the TTT version is very nice, and melds beautifully with the rest of TTT, her GOMH version is a stunner. What I cant agree with is the belittling of the Nice Kitty Kitty lyric! I know everyone hates this, but for some reason, I really like it. There a wink and nod feeling to it that I find very appealing. She's asking for the Kitty to be nice to her, when she knows full well that it will strike out at her at the first opportunity. There's a taunting in it that I must admit I find kind of sexy. It's a definite love/hate relationship - she's often written about her distaste of the music business, but here, with the playful tone in her voice, I think she's almost acknowledging at least a partial love for the damn thing. Her use of the phrase Boring! after the Nice Kitty Kitty line only supports this. For all her protesting, she enjoys the conflict. Let's face it, it's served as some pretty great fodder for some pretty amazing songs. As far as TTT sounding too much the same, I've had several friends make the same complaint about Hejira and Blue, and in reality, they both do have a unique consistancy to them. For some reason, though, people are more open to the sounds of these albums. To me, it's just a matter of preference. I happen to prefer Picasso's blue period, but I still recognize the genius of his rose period. I think this is very much the same thing. Jack ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2002 00:53:22 -0700 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: Re: is early joni really more melodic Jack wrote: > What I cant agree with is the belittling of the Nice Kitty Kitty lyric! Well, I didn't mean to belittle the poor kitty! ;-) I don't hate that she wrote it that way - but maybe hate that it might turn some people off from the overall song. But then if she wrote for what other people thought, she wouldn't be Joni! > As far as TTT sounding too much the same, I've had several friends make the same complaint about >Hejira and Blue, and in reality, they both do have a unique consistancy to them. For some reason, >though, people are more open to the sounds of these albums. To me, it's just a matter of preference. Better not get me started on the beloved Hejira ;-) but TTT doesn't sound too much the same to me - I think it's a very diverse mixed bag (not in a bad way) that has enough brilliance scattered throughout in melody and lyrics to make it worthy. > I happen to prefer Picasso's blue period, but I still recognize the genius of his rose period. I think >this is very much the same thing. It is, and I'm reminded that there are a number of people here who have their favorite phases of Joni across the entire spectrum. Kakki NP: Karla Bonoff - Isn't it Always Love ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2002 01:11:19 -0700 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: is early joni really more melodic Fred wrote: > I don't have any problem with her voice. And I am readily able to hear the > underlying melodies and chords regardless of instrumentation or other > trappings of presentation. I'm sure you can. But presentation can affect how I hear a song. I'm just pondering whether a wider vocal range and more sustained vocal strength might enhance or better fulfill the underlying melodies just like the greater perceived depth of sound from an acoustic instrument might do the same with any given melody in comparison to a synth instrument. > My disappointment is in the actual note choices of those melodies and chords. Yes, and that will always somewhat baffle those of us who are so attached to her earlier chords and melodies. Well, at least she always challenges ;-) Kakki NP: Karla Bonoff - Falling Star ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2002 02:06:03 -0700 From: "Bree Mcdonough" Subject: Re: How does Joni choose her tunings? >Truly, has Joni ever explained her process in choosing her open tunings? >Does the poetry lead such choices? Does she choose the tunings before she >works out the melodies, indeed even before the poem is written? Is it >system-less, and all the more wonderous for it? Any way it's done, it >works a treat. Sort of and yes. Her own words....... Things stick in my crawl and they rotate endlessly...and if I don't clear them.. like I could go mad. I write copiously and then condense. A lot of themes are very,very large and people don't like long, long, long songs and they have to be condensed down to three verses. Magdalene Laundries..... Taking the advice of my caretaker to try writing more in the daylight instead of at night. (notorious night owl) So I sat outside, in the sun, on a rock. And I tuned my guitar to the sounds of that day. Because I play in open tunings...so I tuned to the crows,seagulls,and the sonic references available. And a cheery chord progression happened. (cherry lyrics were not to be though) Usually the music comes first.. because it offers up more a challenging rhyme scheme. It also shows me where I can put my descriptive passages. Where I have to be direct,where my pockets of irony lie. You know.... it lays down restrictions which make it a harder puzzle. Which I enjoy. Open tunings are a pain in the butt. It is like a typewriter the letters move around on you.....every time you sit down to it. But it does cough up original harmonic movement. If you want original harmonic movement and are willing to like confuse your left hand completely, then go for it. Toodle the pegs until you like the chord,then search for the shapes with in it. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------I don't know, I think in Joniworld 1+1 is never two and that is what keeps us coming back for more and more..... If it was two.....would we bother? OH ohooooooo my, my... when that train comes rolling by.... Bree _________________________________________________________________ >Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn. _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2002 05:12:24 -0700 (PDT) From: Mags N Brei Subject: how does joni choose her band mates? I was wondering if anyone knows how Joni chooses her band mates? Mags... np:Hunter from Alternate Blue ===== You open my heart, you do. Yes you do. - JM Yahoo! Games - play chess, backgammon, pool and more http://games.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2002 08:28:27 -0400 From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Judy & Joni <> It was just the three songs, Tim...BUT she did two different versions of Chelsea Morning (thanks to the Judy fans out there who pointed that out to me) & also has recorded live versions of BSN. Additionally, Tom Rush tried to get her to record Urge For Going, but she wasn't interested so he did it himself. Worked out good for Tom! Bob NP: Scott Miller & The COmmonwealth, "I Made A Mess Of This Town" PS: In the "Joni Undercover" section of the JMDL, you can do a search by artist and see all the songs they have done... ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2002 08:37:26 -0400 From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: Judy & Joni <> And after having done that, I see that I was wrong...I forgot she also recorded "For Free" with Richard Stoltzman on piano. D'oh!! Bob NP: Scott Miller, "Yes I Won't" ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2002 06:07:42 -0700 (PDT) From: anne@sandstrom.com Subject: Shades of Scarlet Conquering I was wondering if others found the 'mix' of SoSC disturbing - like the bass is too hot or something. I've always thought it could have been engineered much better than it is. (I used to think it was just a flaw on the vinyl, but I hear the same thing on the CD.) lots of love Anne ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2002 09:40:02 -0400 From: Reuben3rd@aol.com Subject: Re: Re: Judy & Joni In a message dated Tue, 23 Apr 2002 8:38:21 AM Eastern Daylight Time, SCJoniGuy@aol.com writes: I always thought that there were two versions of BNS. (the vocals on the Colors of the Day and Wildflowers albums are different, aren't they?) Maybe its just two different mixes. Reuben ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2002 08:52:25 -0500 From: "J.David Sapp" Subject: Re: is early joni really more melodic <. All I'm dealing with are the musical reasons why her later work doesn't for me.> enough said, i'm movin' on peace, david ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2002 07:58:42 -0700 (PDT) From: Lori in MD Subject: Re: "Pornographic watch?" Anne wrote: > I always thought this was what Joni meant too - because > she also says "sure, it's stricken from his uniform" so > it a watch he would wear. I'm still hung up on a figurative interpretation. His "uniform" -- the priest's frock -- suggests moral virtue. He APPEARS to be above his longings, but he "can't get it out of his eyes." That look ... you know the one. Lori in MD ~ Yahoo! Games - play chess, backgammon, pool and more ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2002 11:01:27 -0500 From: Gerald Notaro Subject: EW Great photo of Joni and a rave review of the box set of The Last Waltz in Entertainment Weekly, 4/19/02. Jerry ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2002 12:12:47 -0400 From: Gary Zack Subject: Re: "Pornographic watch?" Yes Lori, I agree. The "pornographic watch" is the priest being able to look but not touch (looking and longing on the sly) and I always took "sure it's stricken from your uniform, but you can't get it out of your eyes" to mean that he isn't wearing his clerical collar, as most priests don't these days in public, so there is no way to tell he is a priest, but in his heart he knows the vocation he's chosen, still he can't stop from sneaking occasional looks at the carnal attractions before him. It's like the phrase "night watch", or keeping watch in the night. I always felt that Joni used it as a description of the priest's fantasies, not a literal "watch" or "wristwatch." Gary Lori in MD wrote: > > Anne wrote: > > > I always thought this was what Joni meant too - because > > she also says "sure, it's stricken from his uniform" so > > it a watch he would wear. > > I'm still hung up on a figurative interpretation. His "uniform" -- the priest's frock -- suggests moral virtue. He APPEARS to be above his longings, but he "can't get it out of his eyes." That look ... you know the one. > > Lori > in MD > > ~ > Yahoo! Games - play chess, backgammon, pool and more ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2002 12:04:06 -0400 From: "katfud@earthlink.net" Subject: Re: is early joni really more melodic I don't pretend to have the musical background of David Lahm, whose musical prowess I have witnessed and delighted in first hand; and I'm sure that despite my musical training, there are many here who are more advanced than I... but I have to object to the objections to Joni's statement about her later work being more melodic and more harmonically complex. For me, the major distinguishing characteristic between her "early" and "later" work (for me, the sea change begins to occur with C&S/HOSL, and is firmly in place by Hejira) is that her early work has the overt, overarching melodic lines one would associate with European music, particularly 19th century art songs, as well as the American "folk" sensibility; and that her later work deals more with internal melody: internal tensions, internal dissonances and internal resolutions -- which is, in fact, much more African than her earlier work (her earlier work could only be described as African in her occasional use of bluesy bent notes, etc. -- a superficial African attribute.) The end result is that we may hear in her later work an increase in "texture," but in my view, "texture" is code for more complex melodic structures. The prevalence of major and minor seconds, both in her tunings, in her chords and in her melodies increases drastically; the result is more complex colorations and more complex emotional response, despite the comparative reduction in "vertically" challenging melodies. I would argue that people consider her later work less melodic because they focus on the relative absence of soaring melodies of the "Song to a Seagull" ilk; in addition, the emotional complexity of her structures produces subconscious ambivalence or even confusion, but this is only because we are not used to having our ears taxed in that way. A quick listen to some key traditions in world music will illustrate how comparatively destitute the western aural palette is, apart from true blues & jazz (this comparative destitution can largely be blamed on the dominance of! equal te ning systems adopted in the 18th and 19th centuries, and western music's consequent abandonment of just intonation); and to me, one of her great triumphs in music is helping to create an increased tolerance and appreciation of dissonance and complex colors in western pop music. We all know that she should be more openly celebrated than she is (if I have to watch Dylan get worshipped for caterwauling nonsense on one more televised awards ceremony, I will pull out my hair), but I think that we are not clear on WHY. Yes, she is a brilliant poet and a brilliant composer; she has sung the soundtrack to our lives; and she has always been ahead of her time; but I think that the actual, core reasons WHY she is ahead of her time are not clearly understood. My contention is that she HAS become more melodically complex with time, and that it is her evolving harmonic and melodic complexity that is her major contribution -- not her confessional lyrics, nor her "female" point of view. :-) Kay Ashley - -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web.com/ . ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2002 12:04:10 -0400 From: "katfud@earthlink.net" Subject: Re: is early joni really more melodic I don't pretend to have the musical background of David Lahm, whose musical prowess I have witnessed and delighted in first hand; and I'm sure that despite my musical training, there are many here who are more advanced than I... but I have to object to the objections to Joni's statement about her later work being more melodic and more harmonically complex. For me, the major distinguishing characteristic between her "early" and "later" work (for me, the sea change begins to occur with C&S/HOSL, and is firmly in place by Hejira) is that her early work has the overt, overarching melodic lines one would associate with European music, particularly 19th century art songs, as well as the American "folk" sensibility; and that her later work deals more with internal melody: internal tensions, internal dissonances and internal resolutions -- which is, in fact, much more African than her earlier work (her earlier work could only be described as African in her occasional use of bluesy bent notes, etc. -- a superficial African attribute.) The end result is that we may hear in her later work an increase in "texture," but in my view, "texture" is code for more complex melodic structures. The prevalence of major and minor seconds, both in her tunings, in her chords and in her melodies increases drastically; the result is more complex colorations and more complex emotional response, despite the comparative reduction in "vertically" challenging melodies. I would argue that people consider her later work less melodic because they focus on the relative absence of soaring melodies of the "Song to a Seagull" ilk; in addition, the emotional complexity of her structures produces subconscious ambivalence or even confusion, but this is only because we are not used to having our ears taxed in that way. A quick listen to some key traditions in world music will illustrate how comparatively destitute the western aural palette is, apart from true blues & jazz (this comparative destitution can largely be blamed on the dominance of! equal te ning systems adopted in the 18th and 19th centuries, and western music's consequent abandonment of just intonation); and to me, one of her great triumphs in music is helping to create an increased tolerance and appreciation of dissonance and complex colors in western pop music. We all know that she should be more openly celebrated than she is (if I have to watch Dylan get worshipped for caterwauling nonsense on one more televised awards ceremony, I will pull out my hair), but I think that we are not clear on WHY. Yes, she is a brilliant poet and a brilliant composer; she has sung the soundtrack to our lives; and she has always been ahead of her time; but I think that the actual, core reasons WHY she is ahead of her time are not clearly understood. My contention is that she HAS become more melodically complex with time, and that it is her evolving harmonic and melodic complexity that is her major contribution -- not her confessional lyrics, nor her "female" point of view. :-) Kay Ashley - -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web.com/ . ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2002 16:30:49 +0000 From: "c Karma" Subject: re: Cat Fugue My son's cyber pet can't yet create an organic theme when walking across the keyboard. Maybe in a few years they'll improve the software... Scarlatti, huh? Fascinating. Thanks. CC _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2002 13:10:27 -0400 From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: "Pornographic watches & Priests?" <> This is really a great little discussion...now I'm more inclined to side with this opinion. I've never heard of a "pornographic watch" anyway, except maybe for a pocket watch which opens up to expose some dirty picture or something. Surely a priest would not wear something (even a wrist watch) that is openly pornographic. This lyric has always stood out to me. I'm certainly open to believe that its not as literal as I had originally thought, and that "with a pornographic watch" can mean "with an intent to watch pornography". Either way, it's a brilliant metaphor for the suffering "Boho Dance" artist, who pretends to be (and will never be) more than he is. Joni's view of "Priests" is certainly not very respectful...besides this pornographic priest, we get the priest who has impregnated Bridget in "Magdalene Laundries" and "The Priest" who we first meet in the airport bar. Anybody up for talking about THAT one? Bob NP: Toilet Boys, "Saturday Nite" ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2002 10:36:43 -0700 (PDT) From: Lori in MD Subject: Re: "Pornographic watches & Priests?" > Joni's view of "Priests" is certainly not very respectful...besides this > pornographic priest, we get the priest who has impregnated Bridget in > "Magdalene Laundries" and "The Priest" who we first meet in the airport bar. > Anybody up for talking about THAT one? While not a priest, let us not forget the preacher in "Tax Free" (one of my all-time favorites). Lori ~ Yahoo! Games - play chess, backgammon, pool and more ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2002 13:39:48 -0400 From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: Re: "Pornographic watches & Priests?" <> True, and wasn't that text lifted verbatim from a monologue of Swaggart or Falwell? Bob ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2002 11:41:49 -0700 (PDT) From: Lori in MD Subject: Re: "Pornographic watches & Priests?" > True, and wasn't that text lifted verbatim from a monologue of > Swaggart or Falwell? Ooooh ... was it?? What good dirt!!! Lori ~ Yahoo! Games - play chess, backgammon, pool and more ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2002 15:02:25 -0400 From: dsk Subject: Re: "Pornographic watch?" Gary Zack wrote: > > Yes Lori, I agree. The "pornographic watch" is the priest > being able to look but not touch (looking and longing on the > sly) and I always took "sure it's stricken from your > uniform, but you can't get it out of your eyes" I've always taken it that way, too, rather than it being an actual physical wristwatch. I considered it more of an emotional thing within the priest that he couldn't hide or subdue and that an attentive person such as Joni would notice its small outward signs. > to mean that > he isn't wearing his clerical collar, The first Joni lyric that really intrigued me was: "He was wearing his father's tie." Did he actually borrow his biological father's tie that morning? Or is she referring to the Roman collar, his God as Father "tie", that priests wear? It could be either I think. Wasn't there a discussion a while ago that "The Priest" was about Leonard Cohen? (That was a surprise to me.) It makes the song even more interesting to think that it's not even about an actual vow-taking priest, but about someone who feels and acts as though he is, even to the point of not being able to freely "look". Debra Shea ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2002 15:42:21 EDT From: KJHSF@aol.com Subject: The Priest, formerly pornographic watch I've often wondered about the Priest in the airport bar. Did Joni and he really get together, or is this song simply her own daydream? I can imagine him walking over to her table and saying something seductive like, "Wow, you've got the hips of an altar-boy. Can I buy you a drink?" Ken PS>anyone familiar with the RIckie Lee jones tune, The Altar Boy? ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2002 15:48:31 EDT From: KJHSF@aol.com Subject: Joni and Judy I recall a People Magazine Article about the time of the release of DED that said that Joni was "uncharacteristically unkind" when pressed to talk about Judy Collins. Joni related a story of Judy leaving her on the stoop waiting to be picked up for the Newport Jazz fest back in the day. Judy never picked up Joni, and then called her from the fest to tell her about it. Joni was clearly miffed and displayed some of the Scorpionic sting in this article, but my recollection is very sketchy. Does anyone know about this story? Are Joni and Judy friendly these days? Ken NP-Patty Griffen(with Emmylou) Black Limousine ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2002 15:13:29 -0500 From: johnirving Subject: Re: Joni and Melody. Hi Fred, Why do you prefer Joni's earlier music? Hmmm, perhaps a lobotomy is in order. We can lay your neural net and brain cells in a row and stimulate them with chord/melodic changes. Or perhaps a less scientific point of attack... we can hire a spiritualist and channel your inner being. Somewhere in your soul there lies a tunning fork that resonates to 'basic' harmonic elements. When those frequencies pass into your ear, the inner muse of your tunning fork vibrates in sympathy to your ear. It's this sympathetic vibration of your soul that holds the key to your pleasure. All our tuning forks are tuned to different resonances, which explains why we like different music. -As Joni members, we share a spiritual connection of some sort. But it's not a closed set. Just tangent. That's the best I can offer. As to Joni being more melodic. Hardly. Her early music is very sing song to my ear. The melodic line and the harmonic line mirror each other and are built very closely. It's western music harmony for sure. To put it on the simplest of terms: take the chord C e G. The notes played together would form a harmony. If you string the notes out, they become a melodic line. If you sing c-e-g and harmonize along with it by playing the stacked CEG along with it, you have the purest (?), or perhaps simplest form of being 'melodic.' Also, the most generally pleasing in terms of what American audiences are used to. If you look at the sheet music for many of Joni's earliest of early songs, you'll see this simple structure in action. This is what most people think of when they think of being 'melodic.' The twist Joni brought to the stage was adding tone colors with the addition of notes to the simple chord by using alternate tunings. Suddenly, the CeG becomes CeGaF. The harmony of the bar is widended and colored. The melodic line has a greater room for movement. the notes c e g a f all become fair ground for simple melodic/harmonic pairing. Essentially tho, her early music still relies on the melodic line/harmonic structure falling more in 'keeping' with each other. Enter jazz. Suddenly the melodic line and harmonic structure are freed from each other. In spaces of the bar, chords play 'free' of any rhythmic or harmonic movement of the melodic line. It's still melodic and it's still harmonic, just not mirrored to each other. This contrapunctnal structure is where Joni feels she's giving more melody to the song. Think of simpler song structures where you can write a lead sheet for a verse and then simply add the other verses underneath. Essentially, the words change but the melodic/harmonic movement stays the same. Here's Joni writing music where you can't do that anymore. She's altering where to come in on the bar and the notes raise and lower to, as she puts it, 'give the words their own natural inflection.' There's more there there. For a lot of people, to play CEG and never get around, in the melodic line to singing either c, e or g strikes of being non-melodic. It just doesn't rink right to their inner harmonic resonance. For myself, to play CEG and to sing c e g as a melodic movement is sing song and disinteresting. I'd rather hear the other colors in the melodic line. More dissonant, yes. But more complex and beautiful to my ear. One of the things I loved, for awhile with any 'new' Joan was a total feeling of not knowing where the @$#^^!#^& the song was going on the first listen. It would simply have to unravel before my ear. And it would take several listenings before I got familiar enough with the music to be aware of it's structure. That's the Joan I love and she delivers it in spades as her musical career evolved. We just need to warp your internal resonances a bit. -Gang, get the rack!!! ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2002 22:05:02 +0100 From: colin Subject: Re: Joni and Melody. I prefer Joni's later works. Yes, less tuneful, but also much less painful on the ear! But then I don't listen to joni for the tune but for the music. it resonates somehow with me. Half the time I haev no clue what she is even singing about(terrible diction), even with the lyric printed on the covers. But the sounds she makes please me. Now when i want to listen to great singing and a good tune I listen to carly...... ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2002 17:29:26 EDT From: FredNow@aol.com Subject: Re: is early joni really more melodic In a message dated 4/23/02 2:02:17 AM, Merk54 writes: >I definitely agree with you on some of this. I think the most obvious >demonstration of this would be the comparison of Joni's two versions of >Man From Mars - The TTT version, and the her version from the Grace of >My Heart sound track. While the TTT version is very nice, and melds beautifully >with the rest of TTT, her GOMH version is a stunner. The GOMH version, which was produced by Larry Klein, by the way, is the closest thing to older-style-Joni that she's released in a long, long time, both in its orchestration/production and in the actual notes. It's very nice. >As far as TTT sounding too much the same, I've had several friends make >the same complaint about Hejira and Blue, and in reality, they both do >have a unique consistancy to them. For some reason, though, people are >more open to the sounds of these albums. To me, it's just a matter of >preference. Hejira has an inherent, built-in sameness that is actually a significant component of the aesthetic of the album, and of its artistic success. Blue is more varied, although it also has an inherent homogeneity that contributes to its achievement. But the consistency of both these albums is like the congruity of a very fine, complex, full-bodied wine ... lots of rich nuance and variation within their conformity. TTT's sameness is the repetition of the average (albeit, Joni's average is a hell of a lot better than most people's best). Sorry to be so harsh, but to my ears, that's honestly how wide the disparity is for me. - -Fred ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2002 17:46:58 EDT From: FredNow@aol.com Subject: Re: is early joni really more melodic In a message dated 4/23/02 4:00:42 AM, KakkiB@worldnet.att.net writes: >Fred wrote: > >>I don't have any problem with her voice. And I am readily able to hear >>the underlying melodies and chords regardless of instrumentation or other >>trappings of presentation. > >I'm sure you can. But presentation can affect how I hear a song. I'm just >pondering whether a wider vocal range and more sustained vocal strength >might enhance or better fulfill the underlying melodies just like the >greater perceived depth of sound from an acoustic instrument might do the >same with any given melody in comparison to a synth instrument. No, I'm afraid the issue is at the root, the very notes ... I would have the same complaint even if played on a kazoo. I'd rather hear great notes played on a cheesy synth than mediocre notes played on a Hamburg Steinway. >>My disappointment is in the actual note choices of those melodies and >>chords. > >Yes, and that will always somewhat baffle those of us who are so attached >to her earlier chords and melodies. Well, at least she always challenges >;-) That's the problem, I'm not challenged. Fred ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2002 15:04:34 -0700 From: Steve Dulson Subject: The Priest Bob wrote: >"The Priest" who we first meet in the airport bar. Anybody up for >talking about >THAT one? Ah, but that priest was Leonard Cohen wasn't it? He met her on the midway of the fair last year, took her to his father's house, painted her naked in the roses, and they parted in the airport bar... - -- ######################################################## Steve Dulson Costa Mesa CA steve@psitech.com "The Tinker's Own" http://www.tinkersown.com "The Living Tradition Concert Series" http://www.thelivingtradition.org/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2002 15:27:27 -0700 (PDT) From: Lori in MD Subject: Re: The Priest > Ah, but that priest was Leonard Cohen wasn't it? He met her on > the midway of the fair last year, took her to his father's house, > painted her naked in the roses, and they parted in the airport bar... Are you sure, Steve? I thought they took a taxi to his mother's home ... ; ) Lori ~ Yahoo! Games - play chess, backgammon, pool and more ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2002 15:33:42 -0700 From: Steve Dulson Subject: Re: The Priest Lori wrote: > > Ah, but that priest was Leonard Cohen wasn't it? He met her on >> the midway of the fair last year, took her to his father's house, >> painted her naked in the roses, and they parted in the airport bar... > >Are you sure, Steve? I thought they took a taxi to his mother's home ... ; ) Argh, I knew I shouldn't have done that off the top of my head. Busted! :) - -- ######################################################## Steve Dulson Costa Mesa CA steve@psitech.com "The Tinker's Own" http://www.tinkersown.com "The Living Tradition Concert Series" http://www.thelivingtradition.org/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2002 15:56:53 -0700 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: "Pornographic watch?" Leonard Cohen was a monk for awhile & probably took some kind of vows... >>Wasn't there a discussion a while ago that "The Priest" was about Leonard Cohen? (That was a surprise to me.) It makes the song even more interesting to think that it's not even about an actual vow-taking priest, but about someone who feels and acts as though he is, even to the point of not being able to freely "look".<< ******************************************** Kate Bennett www.katebennett.com sponsored by Polysonics Discover the Indies at Taylor Guitars: http://www.taylorguitars.com/artists/awp/indies/bennett.html ******************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2002 19:27:24 EDT From: FMYFL@aol.com Subject: Re: [NortheastJonifest] Re: another member of the Sherelle fan club and Jonif... Wow!!!! I just got Sherelle's CD, and as most of you have already read the wonderful posts.......I just have to say a ME TOO!!!!! Sherelle, thanks so much for sending me your CD. You have a fantastic voice, and we're gonna get you to Jonifest! Count me in Ashara!!! Jimmy ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2002 19:38:18 EDT From: AsharaProducLLC@aol.com Subject: Re: [NortheastJonifest] Re: another member of the Sherelle fan club and Jonif... In a message dated 4/23/2002 7:30:25 PM Eastern Daylight Time, fmyfl@aol.com writes: > Wow!!!! I just got Sherelle's CD, and as most of you have already read the > wonderful posts.......I just have to say a ME TOO!!!!! Sherelle, thanks so > > much for sending me your CD. You have a fantastic voice, and we're gonna > get > you to Jonifest! > > Count me in Ashara!!! > Thanks so much, Jimmy, and thanks to everyone that has offered to donate towards Sherelle's passage to Jonifest. Also, I wanted to make it clear that I wasn't singling Sherelle out as a "favorite" over others trying to get to Jonifest. Lieve's idea really was for those that have received Sherelle's generous offer of her CD, and are enjoying it, to give her some compensation for her generosity. (Us New Agers might call it an energy exchange.) :-) There, of course is a regular scholarship/work study fund in place to help *anyone* that is in financial need get to Jonifest. Hugs, Ashara ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2002 18:25:59 -0700 From: "Mark or Travis" Subject: Re: "Pornographic watches & Priests?" > < watch", or keeping watch in the night.>> > > This is really a great little discussion...now I'm more inclined to side with this opinion. I've never heard of a "pornographic watch" anyway, except maybe for a pocket watch which opens up to expose some dirty picture or something. Surely a priest would not wear something (even a wrist watch) that is openly pornographic. I've never actually seen or heard of a pornographic watch either but I don't think it's important whether or not there actually is such a thing. I think the simile Joni is trying to draw is of someone who says they are immune to wanting something but constantly takes covert glances at and secretly covets that something. A wristwatch is not something you can see on another person very easily unless you come up close to it. And if it's hidden by a sleeve it can't be seen at all. So Joni's 'priest' or supposed celibate takes furtive looks at this carnal image on his watch and probably gets a chubby from it. The parallel is to the artist who claims that fame & fortune is of no interest and not the least desirable, that the art is all that matters & the money & notice would corrupt that art. But secretly this artist wants the wealth and the adulation. He or she may live in an attic & wear second hand clothes but the desire is still there and occasionally visible in their expression or attitude. Anyway that's what I think & that is what I said! Mark E in Seattle ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2002 18:51:22 -0700 From: "Mark or Travis" Subject: Re: "Pornographic watch?" > > to mean that > > he isn't wearing his clerical collar, > > The first Joni lyric that really intrigued me was: "He was wearing his > father's tie." Did he actually borrow his biological father's tie that > morning? Or is she referring to the Roman collar, his God as Father > "tie", that priests wear? It could be either I think. > > Wasn't there a discussion a while ago that "The Priest" was about > Leonard Cohen? (That was a surprise to me.) I think it was Pat 'Sire of Sorrow' who posted about this song and Leonard Cohen. Part of the connection I believe was in the name 'Cohen' which means 'member of the Jewish priestly class descended from Aaron' according to Random House Webster's College Dictionary. There was also some connection to 'his father's tie'. Or maybe that was 'your father's gun' from 'Rainy Night House.' I think if Joni meant the subject of this song to be a Roman Catholic priest she would not have chosen the word 'tie' as opposed to 'collar'. A RC priest's collar bears little or no resemblance to a tie, imo. Cohen's music often combines religion and sexuality. There is a Cohen song on Judy Collins' album 'Wildflowers' called 'Priests' that someone else made mention of in connection to Joni: And who will write love songs for you When I am lord at last? And your body is the little highway shrine That all my priests have passed That all my priests have passed My priests they will put flowers there They will kneel before the glass But they'll wear away your little window, love They will trample on the grass They will trample on the grass And who will shoot the arrows That men will follow through your grace? When I am lord of memories And all your armor has turned to lace And all your armor has turned to lace The simple life of heroes The twisted lives of saints They just confuse the sunny calendar With their red and golden paint With their red and golden paint And all of you have seen the dance That God has kept from me But He has seen me watching you When all your minds were free When all your minds were free And who will write love songs for you When I am lord at last? And your body is the little highway shrine That all my priests have passed That all my priests have passed My priests they will put flowers there They will stand before the glass But they'll wear away your little window, love They will trample on the grass They will trample on the grass So make of that what you will! (And then there's 'Sisters of Mercy' but I won't go into that one now.) Mark E in Seattle ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2002 18:58:54 -0700 From: "Mark or Travis" Subject: Re: Joni and Judy Joni related a story of Judy leaving her on the stoop waiting > to be picked up for the Newport Jazz fest back in the day. Judy never picked > up Joni, and then called her from the fest to tell her about it. Joni was > clearly miffed and displayed some of the Scorpionic sting in this article, > but my recollection is very sketchy. Does anyone know about this story? Are > Joni and Judy friendly these days? I've read this story too and kind of held it against Judy in the same way I held Rickie Lee's remarks about Joni against her for a long time. Very silly of me in retrospect but at one time anybody who spoke or did anything against Joni was unworthy of my notice. Hopefully I have learned a thing or two and grown a tad bit since those days;-) As far as I know Joni & Judy are on good terms these days. Somebody on the list actually had an email from Judy expressing her admiration and respect for Joni. Mark E in Seattle np: Albatross - Judy Collins (I love this song) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2002 19:00:46 -0700 From: "Mark or Travis" Subject: Re: The Priest, formerly pornographic watch > PS>anyone familiar with the RIckie Lee jones tune, The Altar Boy? Yes! As a matter of fact the Cohen song I posted the lyrics to reminds me of 'Altar Boy'. Most people aren't real crazy about Rickie Lee's 'Traffic From Paradise' but I love it. 'Stuart's Coat' is probably my favorite Rickie Lee Jones song. Mark E in Seattle ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2002 22:16:30 -0400 From: Gary Zack Subject: Re: Priests That's interesting Kate, I thought I did read something to that effect about Cohen, or at least he spent some time at a monastery? The first time I ever heard "The Priest" the line, "He was wearing his father's tie" jumped out at me. It sounded at the time to me that the priest was purposely going "incognito" and was "wearing his father's tie" since he either didn't have one of his own, and didn't want to be identified as a priest, so he borrowed one of his dad's or perhaps the tie had belonged to his deceased father and he was in possession of it. At the time the song was written Vatican II had just started spinning, and many priests still wore clerical garb in public as the rule. Our Joni is very clever, she could well have meant Cohen to represent the priest; and at the same time interwove a real or fictitious priest as part of the song. There are a number of religious references in that song, "he looked as only a priest can through", "the sermons the hymns and valentines", (off the top of my head) so it seems like he was a real/fictitious priest, with perhaps a bit of Cohen mixed in? Thoughts anyone? Then there is the Cohen song, "Priests." I really like this discussion too...but then...I've been staying with a priest who took me in when I needed a place to stay, (a great guy too) so I guess I get carried away with the religious stuff. I worked for a religious organization for 17 years ;-) but recently quit to make my move to Los Angeles. I could use some prayers for this upcoming personal hejira.... Best to all! Gary Kate Bennett wrote: > > Leonard Cohen was a monk for awhile & probably took some kind of vows... > > >>Wasn't there a discussion a while ago that "The Priest" was about > Leonard Cohen? (That was a surprise to me.) It makes the song even more > interesting to think that it's not even about an actual vow-taking > priest, but about someone who feels and acts as though he is, even to > the point of not being able to freely "look".<< > > ******************************************** > Kate Bennett > www.katebennett.com > sponsored by Polysonics > Discover the Indies at Taylor Guitars: > http://www.taylorguitars.com/artists/awp/indies/bennett.html > ******************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2002 20:05:59 -0700 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: RE: Priests speaking of leonard cohen, his son adam cohen is performing in santa barbara saturday night...has anyone heard him? of course i will give you all a report! ******************************************** Kate Bennett www.katebennett.com sponsored by Polysonics Discover the Indies at Taylor Guitars: http://www.taylorguitars.com/artists/awp/indies/bennett.html ******************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2002 23:55:12 EDT From: Bobsart48@aol.com Subject: Re: Is early joni really more melodic ? I have been following this thread with much interest. All in all, I feel that there is less disagreement over the content of what is being said than over the terms being used to say it. First of all, there is the definition of "early Joni". One could measure this in years - or, as I would prefer - in units of work product released. I tend to think of her work in groups of 3. On that basis, I consider Joni's first 3 albums to be "early early" Joni, and her next 3 (Blue, FTR and C&S) to be "late early" Joni ( clearly there is a considerable difference between these two triads). Still, this "early" work was marked by extraordinary, accessible (albeit haunting, and non-trivial) melodies. If you do not think so, just sing them out loud, without help. I bet you can. The chord structures were quite classical - Joni relied primarily on extra tones (2nds, 4ths, 6ths, 7ths, 9ths and non-tonic base notes) to add color and provide richness. The rhythms were relatively simple and straigtforward. If you do not think so, try playing them on the guitar or the piano. I bet you can (even I can, and I assure Fred that I am strictly an amateur where music is concerned). The accompaniment was tasteful and not saccharine, but not inaccessibly complex to the ear, either. So, those who say that this period was melodic are right, and those who say it was less complex are also right, IMO. I for one was in love with this work when it came out. Early middle Joni would be the next three albums. HOSL, Hejira and DJRD were on a totally different plateau from the prior 3 albums (not to mention the first 3). The melodies were, on balance, less accessible - if you do not think so, try to sing them without accompaniment. Take Coyote, for instance. Both the notes and the rhythms of the melody are more complex. Is this song melodic ? Certainly ! But it is clearly more complex in its structure than her earliest work. Rhythm is critical to music - it cannot be disregarded in the analysis. And the notes of the melody do not soar over and around the chords, they move semi-anchored inside a relatively narrow range of tones (this does not make them easier to sing), allowing the chords and accompaniment to move around them and add balance to the overall composition. Cotton Avenue, DJRD, Silky Veils. That said, she lost me, temporarily - and I was a big fan. I knew in my head that she was going someplace higher, but I could not feel it, and I left for a long time. It is clear that the top (real) musicians and critics did not feel this way, but the lesser ones certainly did not receive and review these records as well or as highly as they refer to them now. She lost some of them, too. Late middle Joni sort of never happened, IMO. Mingus interrupted it, broke its stride. (Is it possible that the late middle period was slated to be the most exquisite, and that somehow she (and we) were robbed of its fulfillment ?) And when she emerged from Mingus, perhaps a bit spent from the energy of going off in a direction that she was not necessarily prepared (or perhaps perfectly suited) for, I think she was floundering, wondering which direction to reestablish. The direction seems to have come from her new marriage and affiliation with Larry Klein and his musical group. But I would call the 80's albums "early late" Joni. I think the WTRF suffers a bit from the lack of torment that seemed to inspire so much of her earlier work. And I am sad for the synthetic quality of DED - which was also highly impersonal compared to her earlier work lyrically. I think CMIAR is underrated - she was beginning to find herself in many ways, and was coming out of her "lost seas". This brings us to the 90's, and what I would call "late late" joni. Here, there is a return to more accessible melodies. NRH is perhaps too simple in this respect, but she does so much more with the vocal accompaniments and other colorations than she did in her earliest work that NRH is, for me, a comforting return to the womb. Sing the songs a cappella - I bet you can. Turbulent Indigo is a very fine album, with much good work - some simple and accessible, some quite complex and beautiful. I find TTT to be a bit too homogeneous in texture, rhythm and tempo for my taste - both it and BSN are, in that sense, more "mood" collections. What really differentiates her early work from her later work, to me, is that her early work features an unbelievably strong connection between the music and the lyrics that is not captured with anything like that consistency in her later work. This uncanny, seamless connection so permeated her earlier work that I still nearly tear my hair out in disbelief when I hear it. It is not as prevalent any more, I am afraid. A good example of my thinking here is Sire of Sorrow - a song each of whose components I am crazy about, but whose union seems off to me. Not wildly out of place, but disappointing. The music is brilliant but lacks sufficient anguish to complement the lyrics. Magdalene Laundries is another. That does not mean that there are not songs where she still captures this - Sex Kills is one, Lakota, My Secret Place, The Tea Leaf Prophecy, Yvette in English, Face Lift. These songs are not stronger lyrically or musically than the previous two (arguably less so), but they are better connected, and the work is better art, IMO. Just not as consistent as earlier, this connection of lyric and music. " But I know my needs, my sweet tumbleweed, I need more quiet times... by a river flowing, you and me, deep kisses and the sun gooooooooooing down"..... Wow. Bob S. ------------------------------ End of onlyJMDL Digest V2002 #120 ********************************* ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she?