From: les@jmdl.com (onlyJMDL Digest) To: onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Subject: onlyJMDL Digest V2002 #119 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/onlyjoni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com Unsubscribe: mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe onlyJMDL Digest Tuesday, April 23 2002 Volume 2002 : Number 119 The Official Joni Mitchell Homepage, created by Wally Breese, can be found at http://www.jonimitchell.com. It contains the latest news, a detailed bio, Original Interviews, essays, lyrics and much much more. The JMDL website can be found at http://www.jmdl.com and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: is early joni really more melodic [FredNow@aol.com] Re: Revisiting Taming The Tiger/synths, etc. [FredNow@aol.com] Re: Bob Muller's coming to NYC on Sat. April 27 [Dflahm@aol.com] Re: is early joni really more melodic [Dflahm@aol.com] We've already discussed this.......... ["Erica Trudelle" ] Re: onlyJMDL Digest V2002 #118 [Jennymac48@aol.com] Re: We've already discussed this.......... [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] RE: Joni mondegreens ["Donna J. Binkley" ] Re: is early joni really more melodic ["J.David Sapp" ] Words and Music [Tyler Hewitt ] Re: Revisiting Taming The Tiger ["Kate Bennett" ] Joni mondegreens ["Kate Bennett" ] Re: Joni mondegreens [Merk54@aol.com] Re: Joni mondegreens ["gene mock" ] RE: Joni mondegreens ["Kate Bennett" ] RE: Joni mondegreens ["Kate Bennett" ] Mantle o' the Mattala Moon [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: Bob Muller's coming to NYC on Sat. April 27 [RoseMJoy@aol.com] Re: is early joni really more melodic [FredNow@aol.com] Re: is early joni really more melodic [FredNow@aol.com] Re: "Pornographic watch?" [anne@sandstrom.com] Re: onlyJMDL Digest V2002 #118 ["Timothy Spong" ] Joni Mondegreens, Mistakes, and Idiocy on my behalf :) ["Blair Fraipont" ] How does Joni choose her tunings? ["c Karma" ] New CD, broken in 2.... [CHRIS TREACY ] Re: is early joni really more melodic ["J.David Sapp" ] Re: is early joni really more melodic [FredNow@aol.com] Re: Joni mondegreens [FredNow@aol.com] Re: How does Joni choose her tunings? [FredNow@aol.com] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2002 03:12:00 EDT From: FredNow@aol.com Subject: Re: is early joni really more melodic "J.David Sapp" writes: >i recall joni explaining that her early work was more influenced by english >and german harmonic structure, while her later work incorporated a more >jazzy harmonic structure which is essentially african-american and perhaps >not as familar to the caucasian ear, but actually contains more melody >and more complex harmonies. >peace, david Well, this wouldn't be the first time Joni's said something that doesn't make sense. It may be true that her early songs are less jazz inflected than later work, but (and this "but" is huge) many of the melodic and harmonic components of jazz are gleaned from European music in the first place; indeed, jazz is a fusion of European and African (among others) musical elements. Even more importantly (and in further contradiction to what Joni said), the greatest jazz composers (Duke Ellington, Charles Mingus, Wayne Shorter, just to name a very few) wrote very cohesive, songful melodies, accompanied by harmony significantly derived from European sources, and their melodic/harmonic material is exceedingly inspired, memorable, and inventive. Much of Joni's later work sounds flat and uninteresting in comparison to their compositions. It's got nothing to do with cultural differences, but rather with differences of compositional excellence. The idea that her later songs contain "more melody and more complex harmonies" is just not supported by the evidence, which can be investigated if one makes the effort to analyze them theoretically. Incidentally, something I find instructive is that several recent jazz interpreters of Joni's songs (Fred Hersch, Joshua Redman, Dave Douglas, David Lahm, Larry Goldings) have mainly concentrated on her earlier work. - -Fred ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2002 03:45:25 EDT From: FredNow@aol.com Subject: Re: Revisiting Taming The Tiger/synths, etc. Michael Paz writes: >Yea yea yea. We've heard it all before. Let me get my big violin out and >accompany you on this tired old song. There is nothing in the world like >an acoustic guitar, but this new fangled thing [VG-8] is so cool and so much deeper >than anyone has managed to express here as of yet. > > >on 4/20/02 2:44 PM, Jim L'Hommedieu (Lama) at jlamadoo@fuse.net wrote: > >> I'm commenting today on Fred Simon's post. While I am hesitant >> to admit this because there are some very wise and talented >> people right here on this list who love the VG-8, I have to >> agree. Fred, you're talking like an audiophile here. This idea >> of tiny variations being missing is very hard to describe but >> it's real to me.... Don't get me wrong, I love synths, I have a dozen of them, and have used them for 20 years. They can be very cool, lots of colors and sounds at one's fingertips. Believe me, I use them all the time (almost always in conjunction with acoustic instruments, though). With the VG-8, guitarists can now catch up with keyboardists and get in on the fun. But sound, and the emotional/musical effect of sound, is made of information ... lots and lots of information, and the finer the resolution of the expression of that information, the deeper the emotional content of what is imparted. A synth's chips can hold only so much, and the sheer amount of nuance present in, say, ten seconds of a real acoustic or electric guitar performance would quickly fill up and overflow even the largest ROM/RAM blocks in the most high-end synth. When you get down to that microscopic level of detail and variation it's mind boggling how vast it is, but it is there that instrumental artistry resides. And this is not only perceived by audiophiles. It's true that given certain conditions on a recording, it may be difficult for untrained ears to distinguish between an acoustic instrument and its sampled counterpart, but that is an inherently false test; the whole point of acoustic instruments is that sound is produced by the mechanical manipulation of wood, wire, skins, felt, magnetic pickups, metal, and other materials that directly cause vibration of air molecules in the form of sound waves ... every single iteration of a note is different and that difference has musical, and thus emotional, meaning. Synths can only move air by electrical means, the same way a voice emits from a phone or a TV through its speaker; in this case, only the speaker is mechanically producing sound waves. The real test would be to compare side by side an acoustic instrument played in the same room as the listener with its sampled counterpart played over a high quality amplification system ... anyone with even modest listening skills would easily know the difference. - -Fred ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2002 08:07:11 EDT From: Dflahm@aol.com Subject: Re: Bob Muller's coming to NYC on Sat. April 27 FWIW, I too would prefer being in a talking rather than a listening-to-music environment. What I look forward too--if my schedule permits--is being with each other. DAVID LAHM ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2002 08:16:08 EDT From: Dflahm@aol.com Subject: Re: is early joni really more melodic Fred, I agree completely with your post. It seems ironic, but the more she works with jazz musicians, the less interesting her music-writing becomes. Perhaps lyrics and experiments with sonorities (instrumental sound-qualities and combinations thereof) became more important to her. DAVID LAHM ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2002 08:42:20 -0400 From: "Erica Trudelle" Subject: We've already discussed this.......... I've noticed that when a new jmdl brings up an interest in discussing a lyric or 2, often people respond with "we've beaten this one to death", "This is an old subject", or "go to jmdl.com and look up our discussion in the archives". Basically all of the veterans have analyzed all of the lyrics so the little greens are out of luck. I thought my membership on the page was going to be deleted when I dared bring up "your notches, liberation doll" eeeeekkkkkk!!!!! ooooowwwwweeeeeee!!!!. So basically I am just asking to throw us a bone sometimes....just some words of wisdom every now and then. _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2002 08:48:48 -0400 From: Jerry Notaro Subject: Re: S&L on DVD rsc1 wrote: > Hi - > > I just watched my copy of "Shadows & Light" the other night, and > it includes the entire skating sequence (during "Hejira"). No other > cuts..."Edith" is on there, as is Jaco's solo. I bought the DVD > about 6 months ago when I spied it in a local CD store. It's a > European import. Great quality, though some of the video aesthetics > of the time are a bit amusing. You should be able to order this. > Perhaps someone knows of an online source? Barnes and Noble has it in stock for 41.84. Jerry ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2002 09:20:34 EDT From: Jennymac48@aol.com Subject: Re: onlyJMDL Digest V2002 #118 GAG Love Jennymac ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2002 09:40:05 -0400 From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: We've already discussed this.......... <> Thanks for the honest thoughts there, Erica...when I was a newbie I encountered some of the same mentality. Don't worry about it, just hang in there and post what you will, knowing that there are newbies (as well as some of us vets) who are always open to talk about Amelia, Don't Interrupt the Sorrow, The Boho Dance, etc, so keep your thoughts coming! The downside to Les' exhaustive database of Joni information is that sometimes it's too easy to refer someone to the detail they're asking about rather than to talk through it. The upside is that by scanning that mass of Joni info, it's always easy to find new things to talk about. Bob NP: Paul McCartney, "Lonesome Town" ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2002 10:11:49 -0500 From: "Donna J. Binkley" Subject: RE: Joni mondegreens My Mondegreen: Joni: "See how that feeling comes and goes like the pull of moon on tide now i am surf rising now parsnips descend at his side..." John Fogerty: "There's a bathroom on the right..." (There's a bad moon on the rise) db - -----Original Message----- From: les@jmdl.com [mailto:les@jmdl.com]On Behalf Of Aldridge, Phil Sent: Saturday, April 20, 2002 7:08 AM To: 'joni@smoe.org' Subject: Joni mondegreens My favourite is Dylan's "The Ants Are My Friends" (Blowin' In The Wind) and most obscure is "Keep on keeping on like a virulent flu" (Tangled Up In Blue). Those of you unfamiliar with the latter song might want to guess what the last two words should be. Always a fun thread. Phil ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2002 11:24:16 -0500 From: "J.David Sapp" Subject: Re: is early joni really more melodic well i congratulate you for being smarter and more musically educated than joni - i was definitely paraphrasing from memory - joni has also often said she'll let others theoretically analyze her work, she is an intuitive. IMO musicians cover her early work because it is easier. peace, david > > > Well, this wouldn't be the first time Joni's said something that doesn't make > sense. It may be true that her early songs are less jazz inflected than later > work, but (and this "but" is huge) many of the melodic and harmonic > components of jazz are gleaned from European music in the first place; > indeed, jazz is a fusion of European and African (among others) musical > elements. Even more importantly (and in further contradiction to what Joni > said), the greatest jazz composers (Duke Ellington, Charles Mingus, Wayne > Shorter, just to name a very few) wrote very cohesive, songful melodies, > accompanied by harmony significantly derived from European sources, and their > melodic/harmonic material is exceedingly inspired, memorable, and inventive. > Much of Joni's later work sounds flat and uninteresting in comparison to > their compositions. It's got nothing to do with cultural differences, but > rather with differences of compositional excellence. The idea that her later > songs contain "more melody and more complex harmonies" is just not supported > by the evidence, which can be investigated if one makes the effort to analyze > them theoretically. > > Incidentally, something I find instructive is that several recent jazz > interpreters of Joni's songs (Fred Hersch, Joshua Redman, Dave Douglas, David > Lahm, Larry Goldings) have mainly concentrated on her earlier work. > > -Fred ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2002 09:47:52 -0700 (PDT) From: Lori in MD Subject: Re: "Pornographic watch?" > Like a Priest ON a pornographic watch, instead of > "with"...nit-picky I know, but the use of "with" implies > a possession to me. True enough, Bob. Unless of course "with" implies an affliction ... Lori, who would love to be a gnat at the Vatican this week ~ Yahoo! Games - play chess, backgammon, pool and more ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2002 10:59:14 -0700 (PDT) From: Tyler Hewitt Subject: Words and Music Woke up this morning rather late (ok, very late!) and switched on the TV to get the weather. The channel Trio was broadcasting Joni Mitchell: Words and Music, so I stayed there. What a nice thing to wake up to! They're rebroadcasting it at 3:00 central time today, for those of you who have satellite tv. My vcr's timer is set and ready to go. Yahoo! Games - play chess, backgammon, pool and more http://games.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2002 13:21:49 -0700 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: Re: Revisiting Taming The Tiger I've been reading Positively 4th Street & love the quote from Tom Rush (the first to record one of Joni's songs btw) talking about the music he was inspired by "It sounded real--it sounded like real people playing wooden things and without a lot of prettying up and fancy arrangements and gold-lame outfits." Tom (a part time resident of Santa Barbara) is playing at SOhO on May 19... >>I'm commenting today on Fred Simon's post. While I am hesitant to admit this because there are some very wise and talented people right here on this list who love the VG-8, I have to agree. Fred, you're talking like an audiophile here. This idea of tiny variations being missing is very hard to describe but it's real to me....<< ******************************************** Kate Bennett www.katebennett.com sponsored by Polysonics Discover the Indies at Taylor Guitars: http://www.taylorguitars.com/artists/awp/indies/bennett.html ******************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2002 13:21:52 -0700 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: Joni mondegreens But lets not talk about fair thee wells now, the night is a starry dome And they're playing that scratchy rock n roll beneath the mantle of the moon I never questioned exactly what a moon's mantle might be...something like a starry dome i thought.... ******************************************** Kate Bennett www.katebennett.com sponsored by Polysonics Discover the Indies at Taylor Guitars: http://www.taylorguitars.com/artists/awp/indies/bennett.html ******************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2002 16:35:23 EDT From: Merk54@aol.com Subject: Re: Joni mondegreens ...And they're playing that scratchy rock n roll beneath the mantle of the moon Kate, I thought the exact same thing! Up until 2 minutes ago! I actually had to look at the lyrics online to find out what they really were. Talk about embarassing! Jack ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2002 13:39:33 -0700 From: "gene mock" Subject: Re: Joni mondegreens hello kate, i always thought it meant having a full moon overhead. especially in the fall when the moon seems larger. great song though. gene - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kate Bennett" To: Sent: Monday, April 22, 2002 1:21 PM Subject: Joni mondegreens > But lets not talk about fair thee wells now, the night is a starry dome > And they're playing that scratchy rock n roll beneath the mantle of the moon > > I never questioned exactly what a moon's mantle might be...something like a > starry dome i thought.... > ******************************************** > Kate Bennett > www.katebennett.com > sponsored by Polysonics > Discover the Indies at Taylor Guitars: > http://www.taylorguitars.com/artists/awp/indies/bennett.html > ******************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2002 13:54:57 -0700 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: RE: Joni mondegreens lol!!!!! everytime i sing that song i have to struggle to not sing it the old way! ******************************************** Kate Bennett www.katebennett.com sponsored by Polysonics Discover the Indies at Taylor Guitars: http://www.taylorguitars.com/artists/awp/indies/bennett.html ******************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2002 13:58:47 -0700 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: RE: Joni mondegreens yes, it does sort of make sense that way...glad i'm not the only one that heard it wrong... ******************************************** Kate Bennett www.katebennett.com sponsored by Polysonics Discover the Indies at Taylor Guitars: http://www.taylorguitars.com/artists/awp/indies/bennett.html ******************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2002 16:57:46 -0400 From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Mantle o' the Mattala Moon Y'all don't feel too bad...most of the "professional" cover versions sing "mantle of the moon" as well. I've got a Celtic version on the way from a singer named Jo Collins - we'll see what SHE sings! :~) At least it's better than the assortment of intro's to BSN; ie "Swirls & Curls", "Curls & Furls", "Rows & Goes", Oars & Ploars"... Bob NP: Midnight Oil, "Blue Sky Mine" ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2002 17:48:29 EDT From: RoseMJoy@aol.com Subject: Re: Bob Muller's coming to NYC on Sat. April 27 Well, where would you suggest David, since you're a native of the city? ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2002 18:37:18 EDT From: FredNow@aol.com Subject: Re: is early joni really more melodic In a message dated 4/22/02 7:16:08 AM, Dflahm writes: >Fred, I agree completely with your post. It seems ironic, but the more >she works with jazz musicians, the less interesting her music-writing becomes. >Perhaps lyrics and experiments with sonorities (instrumental sound-qualities >and combinations thereof) became more important to her. It's a really interesting question. I've put a lot of thought into it, and while I don't have it all figured out, I do think I have a few plausible answers. I'm not sure about the idea that she has become more interested in exploring sonorities, because she has always been quite involved in that, and has always excelled at it. Maybe you're right that she is now interested in that to the detriment of melody and harmony. I do agree that hanging and working with jazz musicians is a factor, a case of an intuitive genius diluted with partial education. I also feel that she may have convinced herself that her earlier work was not as "hip" as this new, exotic jazz world she was discovering, failing to realize that it was her own unschooled self-invented language that was truly hip, hipper than any grafting of jazz could make it. Another component may be one that Joni herself identified in younger female singer/songwriters who had been influenced by her, she had paved the way for them, but subsequently they had rejected her, which she aptly described as "killing mommy" ... I think perhaps she has succumbed to this herself. Finally, I have to consider the sad possibility that her "melody well" has dried up. It happens. And if so, as I am always careful to stress, it in no way whatsoever diminishes the magnitude of her previous achievement. Nothing can take that away from her. Fred ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2002 19:12:27 EDT From: FredNow@aol.com Subject: Re: is early joni really more melodic In a message dated 4/22/02 11:14:03 AM, davidsapp@peoplepc.com writes: >well i congratulate you for being smarter and more musically educated than >joni - i was definitely paraphrasing from memory - joni has also often >said she'll let others theoretically analyze her work, she is an intuitive. >IMO musicians cover her early work because it is easier. I'm going to do my best to choose not to read your reply as snippy. (insert emoticon here) It's not a matter of being smarter or more educated, and certainly not to the imagined exclusion of intuition, an essential component of art whether schooled or not. But it should be recognized that there is nothing inherently anti-intuition about theory, analysis, or education, despite the romantic myth that there is. I don't understand your idea that jazz musicians cover her earlier work because it is "easier." Specifically, what is easier about it? In my own investigation of her songs, I find nothing easy about interpreting the early stuff, in fact, just the opposite ... there are so many oblique (albeit organic, with a natural internal logic) turns of melody and harmony, that successfully negotiating their terrain is quite difficult at best. In fact, my own feeling is that jazz musicians have chosen these earlier songs because they offer so much more (and so much more interesting) melodic/harmonic meat on the bone on which to gnaw. At least that's why I do. You might also ask David Lahm right here on the list why he does. - -Fred ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2002 17:09:02 -0700 (PDT) From: anne@sandstrom.com Subject: Re: "Pornographic watch?" > > I'm so literal, I also thought it was really a pornographic watch. Kind > of > > like a Mikey Mouse watch, but with naked bodies as the hands of the clock. > > Then when he thought no one was looking, he would pull up his sleeve, and > > sneak a peak! I always thought this was what Joni meant too - because she also says "sure, it's stricken from his uniform" so it a watch he would wear. lots of love Anne ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2002 00:30:02 +0000 From: "Timothy Spong" Subject: Re: onlyJMDL Digest V2002 #118 On Sun, 21 Apr 2002, at 09:31:33 EDT, Sylphidiam@aol.com (Cairn) wrote, on The Joni/Judy connection: > > Can someone please explain the Joni/Judy connection to me? If my >understanding is correct, Judy started singing Joni songs before Joni was >very well-known (or had released her first album?) to the point of having >Hillary Clinton actually credit Judy with Chelsea Morning (which she did >the first time I heard her tell the story. She's since referred to it as >Joni's song, I know.) In addition to "Chelsea Morning," alluded to here, and "Both Sides Now," presumably known to all on the list, Judy recorded Joni's "Michael from Mountains," and maybe more. According to Judy's autobiography, "Singing Lessons," Joni telephoned Judy and sang "Both Sides, Now," whereupon Judy was so touched that she "wept." Judy's orchestrated recording of "BSN," which spent several weeks at the national No. 2 position in early 1969, is widely credited with making Joni a well-known songwriter, as well as with making Judy well-known as a mainstream recording artist, vs. in the folk-music niche market. > I don't know much about Judy...does she write too, or just sing? Judy writes songs, too. The entire "Shameless" album, a companion to a novel, is Judy's own compositions. Other Judy-penned-and-recorded songs include "My Father" (which has been covered by others), "Song for Judith (Open the Door)," "Blizzard" and "Since You Asked." Incidentally, I have recently discovered that Joan Baez's album (which I don't own) "Gulf Winds" consists entirely of Joan Baez compositions. And in addition to "Singing Lessons" and "Shameless" (the novel), I believe Judy wrote another, earlier autobiography. > Did Joni place many of her song with others in those early days? Someone else on this list has already answered the last question. > > Thanks for the history help in advance. > > >>Cairn<< > You're welcome. Tim Spong Dover, Del., U.S.A. _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2002 20:34:09 -0400 From: "Blair Fraipont" Subject: Joni Mondegreens, Mistakes, and Idiocy on my behalf :) Okay, this list I have been storing ever since I got into Joni and some of these are simply bad mishearings that make me ponder my listening skills: "Roses dipped in Ceiling wax" (Roses dipped in sealing wax) "Beneath the Map a la Moon" (Beneath the Matalla Moon) "When something strange hit him" (When something strange happened) (Court and Spark) "Watching your hairy clouds and stars" (Watching your hair and clouds and stars) "All cause for now withdrawn" (All claws for now withdrawn) "He says, you're not just liberation doll" (He says "Your notches liberation doll") "To that Ethiopian walk" (To that Ethiopian wall) "OUt in the wind in Kremlin" (Out in the wind in crinolines) "Magnolia's hopeful in her RObert Hair" (Magnolias hopeful in her auburn hair) "Jesus was a bad guy, he was rich in grace" (Jesus was a beggar, he was rich in grace) "Skinny black models with raving curls" (Skinny black models with Raveen curls) "sitting around in some all nite loot" (Sitting around in some all night zoo) "These ensyncophants parade" (Thieves and sycophants parade) "I'm a burning heart, he said" ("I'm a burning hearth," he said) "Saying, 'Abby who are you in yet?" (Saying, "Avez-vous un allumette?") "Explosions of your honor until we meet again" (Explosions of your autumn till we meet again) Okay, so most of those are really lame. The mistake lyric in "The Boho Dance" when I had first heard it thought that Joni was really pushing it by saying that Jesus was a "badguy" (you know, like WOW, Joni is making a rash statement here folks). When I found out the truth, not only did I laugh myself silly, but felt completely foolish. Blair :) NP: "Banquet" The Mitchell _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2002 01:27:08 +0000 From: "c Karma" Subject: How does Joni choose her tunings? I opened an Express Mail package containing my brand new (off e-Bay) copy of the Turbulent Indigo songbook. It's been some time since I looked closely at the open tunings, not spending much time with my guitar these days. I was really shocked to see how far afield of the earlier open chords the later compositions are tuned. I guess I began to see a real change with Hejira, but had lost track. Frankly, my guitars were contorting into rediculous shapes and without my own personal technician I just gave up trying to keep up. Yes I do appreciate the tuning flexibility (in THEORY) of the VG8 if not its textural attributes. That barb thrown, I still wonder how, in the composing process Joni decides what notes to tune each string for each composition. Paging through the Turbulent Indigo book, I saw some wildly interesting choices, even a bit of humor if one even allows oneself to consider the possibility that "Lead Balloon" was written to be played on a tuning derived from ALL FLATS purposely. How amusing. (No pun intended.) I finally came to the conclusion that for TI, she probably just picked Nietzche up and let him walk across the piano keyboard. Whatever sounded is what she wrote in for the day. WHICH would explain why Taming The Tiger is written largely in an open C chord tuning. The tuning muse was MIA. Truly, has Joni ever explained her process in choosing her open tunings? Does the poetry lead such choices? Does she choose the tunings before she works out the melodies, indeed even before the poem is written? Is it system-less, and all the more wonderous for it? Any way it's done, it works a treat. CC I hear you in the water and the wiring in the walls. -- JM _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2002 18:49:27 -0700 (PDT) From: CHRIS TREACY Subject: New CD, broken in 2.... Not sure how I feel about the notion of Joni's new CD being released as 2 separate discs. I'm assuming this would be done in the same fashion as (ugh) Guns'n'Roses and also Bruce Springsteen have in the past...dual releases out on the same day. Hits & Misses, to name another. Can anyone clear up if that indeed is the plan, were she to go through with it? I personally think it's a suckass idea - disturbs the continuity of the project in a very un-joni-like fashion. The prospect of the 2CD set is much more appealing to me as both a fan and a consummer. - -Chris PS. Saw Alison Krauss & Union Station the other night here in Boston - one of the most amazing talents I've ever seen take the stage. I remembered the show I saw 2 years ago was AWESOME, but this was even better. If you haven't already, check this band out!!! Yahoo! Games - play chess, backgammon, pool and more http://games.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2002 21:17:15 -0500 From: "J.David Sapp" Subject: Re: is early joni really more melodic well i am not a musician, i just know what i like to hear - i am drawn to all of joni's work and of course i have ones i prefer over others - but i feel defensive when people dismiss a brilliant piece like TI, for a piece like Clouds, which to my ear is nowhere near as beautiful or as musically complex. the more i listen to TI the more deceptive the complex guitar work becomes in that it sounds very simple in its beauty. i have been listening to joni almost every day of my life for 30 years - i remember fans leaving in droves over HOSL and Hejira, and those works being dismissed by critics and the musically educated, now those works are generally considered masterpieces. so in 30 years will NRH be considered in that way? peace, david > I'm going to do my best to choose not to read your reply as snippy. (insert > emoticon here) > > It's not a matter of being smarter or more educated, and certainly not to the > imagined exclusion of intuition, an essential component of art whether > schooled or not. But it should be recognized that there is nothing inherently > anti-intuition about theory, analysis, or education, despite the romantic > myth that there is. > > I don't understand your idea that jazz musicians cover her earlier work > because it is "easier." Specifically, what is easier about it? In my own > investigation of her songs, I find nothing easy about interpreting the early > stuff, in fact, just the opposite ... there are so many oblique (albeit > organic, with a natural internal logic) turns of melody and harmony, that > successfully negotiating their terrain is quite difficult at best. In fact, > my own feeling is that jazz musicians have chosen these earlier songs because > they offer so much more (and so much more interesting) melodic/harmonic meat > on the bone on which to gnaw. At least that's why I do. You might also ask > David Lahm right here on the list why he does. > > -Fred ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2002 22:49:42 EDT From: FredNow@aol.com Subject: Re: is early joni really more melodic In a message dated 4/22/02 9:07:12 PM, davidsapp@peoplepc.com writes: >i remember fans leaving >in droves over HOSL and Hejira, and those works being dismissed by critics >and the musically educated, now those works are generally considered >masterpieces. The phrase "critics and the musically educated" is an oxymoron if ever there was one. I'm not aware of any musically educated person whose opinion I value dismissing HOSL or Hejira. I didn't. Neither Pat Metheny nor Lyle Mays nor Wayne Shorter nor Charles Mingus did, nor Jaco or any of the other brilliant musicians who played on those records. >well i am not a musician, i just know what i like to hear This would be a good time for me to reiterate that in no way am I addressing whether or not any particular music of Joni's has meaning for someone. If it does, it does. All I'm dealing with are the musical reasons why her later work doesn't for me. - -Fred ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2002 21:02:37 -0700 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: is early joni really more melodic Fred wrote: > It's a really interesting question. I've put a lot of thought into it, and > while I don't have it all figured out, I do think I have a few plausible > answers. I'm not sure about the idea that she has become more interested in > exploring sonorities, because she has always been quite involved in that, and > has always excelled at it. Maybe you're right that she is now interested in > that to the detriment of melody and harmony. I've really enjoyed reading your thoughts on this, Fred, and have gained much understanding. My reaction to early Joni vs. later Joni has always been much the same. The sea change for me started around HOSL, although I was always to find many individual gems in subsequent albums and what didn't grab me I sought to understand. In the case of DJRD, after 20 years I ultimately thought it was absolute genius. Some things have happened the last few years that has given me some serious reconsideration of her later work. One is hearing Marian Russell's renditions of it. Somehow Marian is able to find and amplify their gorgeous melodic essence. She truly can transform some of Joni's later music into something quite amazing with just her voice and guitar. Maybe some alchemy happens because she interprets the songs acoustically and she can sing them with a high, clear voice similar to the early Joni. Some Joni songs I thought were ho-hum that became stunning through Marian's interpretation are Moon at the Window, Wolf that Lives in Linsday and, believe it or not, Ray's Dad's Cadillac! The other thing that made me think again was hearing the HOSL demos with only Joni and her piano. If she'd gone that way for the final product she would have had the bookend to FTR. Laying the jazz on was innovative but it obscured a lot of the original essence. All this makes me think that the well has not run dry so much as she has chosen somewhat arguably eccentric methods of rendering the original melodies. This could tie in to her intuitive side bumping up against her desire to be creative in a medium in which, as you say, she is "half-educated." You or David Lahm or other accomplished jazz musicians can take her melodies and do them right but maybe it gets a little messy or something is lost to some ears when she tries to jazz them herself. Regardless of any of this, I still appreciate everything she does, whether it works for me, or I love it or not. I always hold out the possibility that she might just be way ahead of her time in some ways. That doesn't make her perfect as some of the "flaws" on TTT attest. No matter how you cut it Man From Mars would have been perfect had she stayed with the piano and without the "big boohoo," and Taming the Tiger could have been more profound lyrically without the "nice kitty kitty." Have you every thought about how you might consider some of her later songs if she kept it simpler - on acoustic guitar or piano - and was able to sing them her original voice? Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2002 01:59:06 EDT From: FredNow@aol.com Subject: Re: is early joni really more melodic In a message dated 4/22/02 11:53:00 PM, KakkiB@worldnet.att.net writes: >Have you every thought about how you might consider some of her later songs >if she kept it simpler - on acoustic guitar or piano - and was able to >sing them her original voice? I don't have any problem with her voice. And I am readily able to hear the underlying melodies and chords regardless of instrumentation or other trappings of presentation. My disappointment is in the actual note choices of those melodies and chords. - -Fred ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2002 02:15:58 EDT From: FredNow@aol.com Subject: Re: Joni mondegreens "Kate Bennett" writes: >But lets not talk about fair thee wells now, the night is a starry dome >And they're playing that scratchy rock n roll beneath the mantle of the >moon I never questioned exactly what a moon's mantle might be...something like >a starry dome i thought.... Of course we all know it's "Matala moon" but actually it could have been "mantle of the moon" ... the mantle of a planet or moon is the portion below the crust and above the core. So they might have been playing rock 'n roll down in the core of the moon, kind of a Jules Verne thing. Or a Hades thing. - -Fred ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2002 02:53:57 EDT From: FredNow@aol.com Subject: Re: How does Joni choose her tunings? "c Karma" writes: >I finally came to the conclusion that for TI, she probably just picked >Nietzche up and let him walk across the piano keyboard. Whatever sounded >is what she wrote in for the day. Baroque composer Domenico Scarlatti based his "Cat Fugue" on a subject (the term for the main theme of a fugue) supposedly derived from the notes that resulted when his cat walked across his harpsichord's keyboard. It is an unusual sequence of notes, and very beautiful, whether true or not. - -Fred ------------------------------ End of onlyJMDL Digest V2002 #119 ********************************* ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she?