From: les@jmdl.com (onlyJMDL Digest) To: onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Subject: onlyJMDL Digest V2001 #388 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/onlyjoni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com Unsubscribe: mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe onlyJMDL Digest Monday, December 17 2001 Volume 2001 : Number 388 The Official Joni Mitchell Homepage, created by Wally Breese, can be found at http://www.jonimitchell.com. It contains the latest news, a detailed bio, Original Interviews, essays, lyrics and much much more. The JMDL website can be found at http://www.jmdl.com and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: Don't forget to include your preference i.e. light or dark or a mixture [colin ] Joni on TJ's show... [BigWaltinSF@aol.com] virus again? ["Wally Kairuz" ] Re: virus again? ["hell" ] Re: notches liberation doll ["hell" ] Re: Don't forget to include your preference i.e. light or dark or a mixture [IVPAUL42@aol] Re: Don't forget to include your preference i.e. light or dark or a mixture [IVPAUL42@ao] "By the time we got to woodstock, I'd already written the song..." [BigWa] modern music/joni ["Ron Greer" ] VIRUS ALERT!!! Don't open attachments!! ["J. R. Mills" ] Seeing double? ["Bree Mcdonough" ] Re: Don't forget to include your preference i.e. light or darkor a mixture ["Bree Mcdonough" ] Re: Don't forget to include your preference i.e. light or dark or a mixture ["Bree Mcdonough" ] Re: virus again? ["Bree Mcdonough" ] Re: notches liberation doll and that serpent [Murphycopy@aol.com] Re: notches liberation doll and that serpent [colin ] Re: notches liberation doll [Murphycopy@aol.com] Re: notches liberation doll and that serpent [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] joni and sting [WARREN901@aol.com] Re: joni concerts [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: Sting in Tuscany [Richard Goldman ] Re: Chocolates to state populations [IVPAUL42@aol.com] Re: notches liberation doll [RobSher50@aol.com] Re: notches liberation doll [Randy Remote ] re: notches liberation doll ["c Karma" ] Re: virus again? [Wtking59@cs.com] Joni on The Great Stuba [jmichaelpaz@telocity.com] Fwd: [Jonifest2001] RE: Tapes from Jonifest/Topsfield [AsharaProducLLC@ao] Re: notches liberation doll [colin ] Re: Seeing double? ["mack watson-bush" ] Re: "By the time we got to woodstock, I'd already written the song..." [M] Whose Notches, Liberation Doll? [BigWaltinSF@aol.com] We don' need no steekin' notches... Day late and a dollar short [BigWalt] What an erudite group!! ANIMA RISING ["Bree Mcdonough" ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 08:55:15 +0000 From: colin Subject: Re: Don't forget to include your preference i.e. light or dark or a mixture According to a novel I am readin, California has the highest state population. is this true? ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 09:00:02 +0000 From: colin Subject: Re: Don't forget to include your preference i.e. light or darkor a mixture > All very well and good, but I can testify as an eye witness that both Ashara > and Sal almost buckled at the knees when they were introduced - by me - to > Roger's Chocolates in Victoria, B.C. They've been making and selling > chocolates in this small shop since 1885 - I swear you can gain five pounds > just by opening the door and smelling the air. > Dark, semi-sweet chocolate, of course ;-) what are you trying to do? are you ganging up on me? Why the torture? Not that i like chocolate-horrible icky things............ someone else must have typed that....... ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 01:10:52 -0800 (PST) From: "J. R. Mills" Subject: To provide a link to another Type some text. AUTOTEXT bullet Error! AutoText entry not defined. Add a list item. AUTOTEXT bullet Error! AutoText entry not defined. Add a list item. AUTOTEXT bullet Error! AutoText entry not defined. Add a list item. Type some text. AUTOTEXT line Error! AutoText entry not defined. Related Page 1 | Related Page 2 | Related Page 3. [demime 0.97c removed an attachment of type application/octet-stream which had a name of click.exe] ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 04:19:12 EST From: BigWaltinSF@aol.com Subject: Joni on TJ's show... Hi, gang, A couple of people have mentioned Tom Jones' show from the late 60's/early 70's -- am I crazy, or do i remember Joni singing "For Free" on the show -- one of my earliest memories of her, and the first time I ever saw her on TV. (Forgive me if this has already been asked an answered -- chaos reigns here, and I've several days behind on the digests again. Just curious, walt ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 06:11:48 -0300 From: "Wally Kairuz" Subject: virus again? i'm not labeling this message njc because it might concern everybody. another virus may have hit the jmdl or at least some members' computers. i've just received weird messages from julius and from one rebecca cintron [i think that was the last name]. the messages had attachments -- julius had been removed before i got it. wallyK ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 22:32:22 +1300 From: "hell" Subject: Re: virus again? Wally wrote: > i'm not labeling this message njc because it might concern everybody. > another virus may have hit the jmdl or at least some members' computers. > i've just received weird messages from julius and from one rebecca cintron > [i think that was the last name]. the messages had attachments -- julius had > been removed before i got it. Yeah, me too. Everyone update your virus checkers immediately! Hell ____________________________ "To have great poets, there must be great audiences too." - Walt Whitman hell@ihug.co.nz Hell's Personal Photo Page: http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~hell/main/personal.htm Visit the NBLs (Natural Born Losers) at: http://www.nbls.co.nz ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 23:36:26 +1300 From: "hell" Subject: Re: notches liberation doll Wally wrote: > i've always thought that she meant, ''you're not a person to me, you're just > notches on my gun.'' as in you're just onemore broad that has put out. That's always how I've interpreted it too - that whole song seems to be Joni defending the whole women's rights movement to a very chauvanistic male, who has an answer for everything. "We walked on the moon - you be polite", in other words, "MAN walked on the moon, not women, so show some respect." I've always wondered who the man in question actually was. Hell ____________________________ "To have great poets, there must be great audiences too." - Walt Whitman hell@ihug.co.nz Hell's Personal Photo Page: http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~hell/main/personal.htm Visit the NBLs (Natural Born Losers) at: http://www.nbls.co.nz ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 05:32:41 EST From: IVPAUL42@aol.com Subject: Re: Don't forget to include your preference i.e. light or dark or a mixture In a message dated 12/17/01 1:37:13 AM Eastern Standard Time, roberto1011@hotmail.com writes: > Yours in chocolate...... > > : Peterbrooke Chocolatier Jacksonville, Florida ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 05:37:36 EST From: IVPAUL42@aol.com Subject: Re: Don't forget to include your preference i.e. light or dark or a mixture In a message dated 12/17/01 3:54:34 AM Eastern Standard Time, colin@tantra-apso.com writes: > According to a novel I am readin, California has the highest state > population. > is this true? Yes, I think it is true that more Californians get high than people from any other state, though it's not something you can confirm in the World Almanac or U.S. Census reports. Paul I ;>) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 05:43:44 EST From: BigWaltinSF@aol.com Subject: "By the time we got to woodstock, I'd already written the song..." Hi, gang, Speaking of Joni in fiction, don't you always love it when, in writing about the late sixties, Woodstock (the event) is almost always mentioned, and inevitably, the writer always describes a hush in the crowd as Joni walks onto the stage, and then proceeds to sing the song. As if (a) she'd actually attended, and (b) she'd already written the song before Woodstock had actually happened. Also -- unrelated -- but since CMIARS has been mentioned a lot lately -- frequently as many people's "worst Joni" album -- didn't anyone else like "Snakes and Ladders"? I thought it was the best song on the album. Admittedly, the theme wasn't exactly new -- rise and fall of a marriage -- but I love the call and response thing going on between Joni and Don Henley. She certainly was into call-and-response on that album, and i remember a fellow Joniphile complaining that she wasn't writing songs anymore -- just dialogs. Anyway, saying "joni's worst album" is like saying "the worst orgasm i ever had was..." warmly, walt ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 13:07:42 +0200 From: "Ron Greer" Subject: modern music/joni hi I remember that time you told me you said "Love is touching souls" Surely you touched mine 'Cause part of you pours out of me so there i was last night - not feeling like sleeping, watching all the sexy young things doing their thing on the late night music channel, cause there was nothing else to do. then it struck me - how very close they were to joni's lines above, possibly the most beautiful song verse ever written,....... except,,, instead of "souls",,,,,,, substitute "holes" oh hell, perhaps theyre not that close after all :-) ron ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 03:21:21 -0800 From: "J. R. Mills" Subject: VIRUS ALERT!!! Don't open attachments!! My computer has been attacked by an awful virus. I've been trying to figure the nature of it. It appears to be "VBS/Loveletter..." What ever you do, DO NOT OPEN ANY ATTACHMENTS from my email address. Delete the mail immediately and empty your recycle bin! More info as soon as I can locate same. A thousand apologies. I don't know how this happened. - -Julius ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 07:55:51 EST From: RoseMJoy@aol.com Subject: Re: virus again? I got the same message, beware... ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 10:29:25 EST From: RobSher50@aol.com Subject: Re: Sting in Tuscany Dear Kate, My husband and I were able to watch it as well and we were both very moved by it. My husband was also amazed at how he reinvented his own songs. I agree with you wholeheartedly in your comparison with Joni. I thought that he had worked with her at one time, but I am not certain of that fact. Sherelle In a message dated 12/17/2001 12:04:31 AM Pacific Standard Time, les@jmdl.com writes: > Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2001 22:05:55 -0800 > From: "Kate Bennett" > > Subject: Sting in Tuscany > > I was able to watch the last 2/3 of this concert & its being replayed on > Dec > 22 on A&E. If I were to pick a solo performer who the male version of Joni > I > think it would be Sting. Intelligent, literate artists with jazz > influences. > Both very attractive too. I remember reading that Joni loved the Police & I > imagine that Sting must have great respect for Joni. Has he ever said > anything about her? ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 08:16:50 -0800 From: "Bree Mcdonough" Subject: Re: Don't forget to include your preference i.e. light or dark or a mixture >According to a novel I am readin, California has the highest state >population. >is this true? I would think so? But then you have New York and Big, BIG Texas. Kakki would know better than I. Bree _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 08:22:31 -0800 (PST) From: Lori in MD Subject: Re: notches liberation doll Mary Powers wrote: > in anima rising, when Joni sings "you're just notches liberation doll" > what does that mean? I know what each word means, but putting it together > confuses me. Even though Joni prefers not to label herself "feminist," IMHO "Don't Interrupt the Sorrow" is truly a feminist song. I've always understood the phrase "You're notches liberation doll" to be a man's put-down to a woman, something like: "Regardless of your attempts to be equal, you are and always will be just notches on a bed post." However, JM reminds men that, regardless of their attitudes, the times they are a'changin' ... "Truth goes up in vapors The steeples lean Winds of change patriarchs Snug in your bible belt dreams" Regarding "Anima rising," check out this link on the JMDL site: http://www.jmdl.com/glossary/animarising.cfm Lori in MD ~ Check out Yahoo! Shopping and Yahoo! Auctionsfor all of your holiday gifts! ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 08:24:17 -0800 From: "Bree Mcdonough" Subject: Seeing double? Is anyone out there getting double posts? Two of the same post? I'm not getting two of everybodys, but about half of the posts. NO!! I haven't had a drink for at least 24 hours. (but I might very shortly if I don't figure this out) :-) Bree _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 08:36:54 -0800 From: "Bree Mcdonough" Subject: Re: Don't forget to include your preference i.e. light or darkor a mixture > > Roger's Chocolates in Victoria, B.C. They've been making and selling > > chocolates in this small shop since 1885 - I swear you can gain five >pounds > > just by opening the door and smelling the air. > > Dark, semi-sweet chocolate, of course ;-) > >what are you trying to do? are you ganging up on me? Why the torture? Not >that i >like chocolate-horrible icky things............ > >someone else must have typed that....... LOL,Colin!! I won't touch this one!~ Bree _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 11:45:08 EST From: Murphycopy@aol.com Subject: Re: notches liberation doll In a message dated 12/17/01 11:24:03 AM, lrfye58@yahoo.com writes: << I've always understood the phrase "You're notches liberation doll" to be a man's put-down to a woman, something like: "Regardless of your attempts to be equal, you are and always will be just notches on a bed post." >> But the words are "YOUR notches," not "YOU'RE notches." And I always thought the man was disdainfully referring to the previous line ("A room full of glasses") and then telling the woman that those empty glasses were her notches, as in, "You think you're so great, but all you've done is get loaded and / or get me loaded." In any case, there is a lot of drinking going on in this song. I do agree 100% that the man is belittling the woman in a men-are-superior way. Still waiting for chololates from Bree, --Bob ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 10:55:20 -0600 From: "Sybil Skelton" Subject: Re: notches liberation doll Bob wrote: "But the words are "YOUR notches," not "YOU'RE notches." And I always thought the man was disdainfully referring to the previous line ("A room full of glasses") and then telling the woman that those empty glasses were her notches." I'm glad you brought this up - I was beginning to wonder just what the exact words were - Your and You're give two entirely different meanings to the line. I always understood it the same as Bob. It's like he's addressing her as "liberation doll" and pointing out her "notches" - a definite put down in any case. Sybil _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 09:06:58 -0800 From: "Bree Mcdonough" Subject: Re: Don't forget to include your preference i.e. light or dark or a mixture >According to a novel I am readin, California has the highest state > > population. > > is this true? > >Yes, I think it is true that more Californians get high than people from >any >other state, though it's not something you can confirm in the World Almanac >or U.S. Census reports. > >Paul I >;>) Paul, I thought it was O HI O Bree _________________________________________________________________ Join the worlds largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 09:12:24 -0800 From: jan gyn Subject: Re: Don't forget to include your preference i.e. light or dark or a mixture At 08:55 AM 12/17/2001 +0000, colin wrote: > > According to a novel I am readin, California has the highest state > population. > is this true? It sure seems that way whenever I drive or take public transportation. - -jan ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 17:26:31 +0000 From: colin Subject: Re: Don't forget to include your preference i.e. light or darkor a mixture IVPAUL42@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 12/17/01 3:54:34 AM Eastern Standard Time, > colin@tantra-apso.com writes: > > > According to a novel I am readin, California has the highest state > > population. > > is this true? > > Yes, I think it is true that more Californians get high than people from any > other state, though it's not something you can confirm in the World Almanac > or U.S. Census reports. it's probably living with daily threat of anihilation that does it..... > > > Paul I > ;>) - -- bw colin DAK,BRO GC, 950i, 940,860,864,890, 260,Silver 830,860, 580 and 270, Passap 6000, Duo80. colin@tantra-apso.com http://www.tantra-apso.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 17:28:20 +0000 From: colin Subject: Re: notches liberation doll > Snug in your bible belt dreams" > I've always heard this as 'bible belfrys'. thanks for the correction! ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 09:30:51 -0800 From: "Bree Mcdonough" Subject: Re: virus again? >Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 07:55:51 EST > >I got the same message, beware... I too got these, one from Julius and Rebecca......but did not open the attachments. But am getting double posts anyway. Are you getting two of some posts? Bree _________________________________________________________________ Join the worlds largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 12:36:04 EST From: Murphycopy@aol.com Subject: Re: notches liberation doll and that serpent And how about the line, "He chains me with that serpent to that Ethiopian wall?" I know that we can all guess what "that serpent" is, although Joni would probably deny it, as she did with "boom boom pachyderm." But what is an Ethiopian wall, aside from a wall in Ethiopia? Is this a reference to poetry or literature that I'm not getting? Thanks, --Bob ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 17:43:13 +0000 From: colin Subject: Re: notches liberation doll and that serpent Murphycopy@aol.com wrote: > And how about the line, "He chains me with that serpent to that Ethiopian > wall?" > > I know that we can all guess what "that serpent" is, although Joni would > probably deny it, as she did with "boom boom pachyderm." I dont' lknow what it means but i thought the serpent was stan. > But what is an > Ethiopian wall, aside from a wall in Ethiopia? Is this a reference to poetry > or literature that I'm not getting? > > Thanks, > > --Bob - -- bw colin DAK,BRO GC, 950i, 940,860,864,890, 260,Silver 830,860, 580 and 270, Passap 6000, Duo80. colin@tantra-apso.com http://www.tantra-apso.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 12:46:49 EST From: RoseMJoy@aol.com Subject: Re: notches liberation doll and that serpent In a message dated 12/17/01 12:37:16 PM Eastern Standard Time, Murphycopy@aol.com writes: > But what is an > Ethiopian wall, aside from a wall in Ethiopia? Is this a reference to > poetry > or literature that I'm not getting? > I don't know either Bob, but I'd love to know. I did some research about these walls in Ethiopia. Before entering the city, today's traveler, like those of the past, has to pass through its famous 3,342 metre-long encircling wall, locally known as the Jogal. This structure was erected in the sixteenth century by one of the city's best remembered local rulers of medieval times, Nur ibn-Mujahid, who is said to have dug a defensive trench around the town. This wall, which ensured the city's safety in former days, is made of locally quarried, untrimmed Hashi stone or carcareous tuff, held together with mud, and reinforced with stout juniper planks. The walls of Harar were pierced in early times by five gates, a number supposed to symbolise the Five Pillars of Islam. These gates, known to the Hararis as bari, were situated respectively to the north, east, south-east, south, and west of the city. Each had its own distinctive name, and provided entry and egress to caravans travelling to and from different stretches of the surrounding country. Each of these gates thus played a different role in the economy of the city and of neighbouring lands. The northern gate, for example, was known as the Assum Bari, because it was used by traders importing assu, or pepper and salt, from the Gulf of Aden coast of Africa; while the eastern gate was called the Argob Bari because it served merchants handling the lucrative trade from Argobba, one of Ethiopia's inland regions. The gates of Harar in olden days were strongly guarded, and were strictly closed at night - for no one was allowed to enter or leave the city during the long hours of darkness. Strangers wishing to enter Harar in daytime had first to deposit their spears, guns and other arms with the city's guards, who would look after them scrupulously, and return them when their owners were ready to leave. The walls had, however, a number of holes placed to allow the drainage of water and sewage and to enable hyenas, who constituted the principal garbage collectors, to enter the settlement at night and leave it before the break of dawn. The subsequent integration of Harar into the greater Ethiopian realm led to the construction, in the twentieth century, of two additional gates. To the west, the Shewa gate, so called because it afforded access to the important Ethiopian province of that name; and also the Berbere Bari, called after Ethiopia's hot peppery spice which seems to have been handled in the area. The first of these gates is today by far the most used, for it links the Old and New Towns, while the Berbere Bari has long since been closed. Still very confused, can someone shed some light on this? Who was this song written about, anyone know? Did Joni know someone from this part of the world? Did she ever travel there? ~rose in NJ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 12:54:36 -0500 From: "blonde in the bleachers" Subject: Re: notches liberation doll and that serpent "He chains me with that serpent to that Ethiopian wall" I have always looked at this line as: The serpent represents the man and his power over her, chaining her to that ethiopian wall as if he were the master and she the slave. >From: Murphycopy@aol.com >Reply-To: Murphycopy@aol.com >To: sybilskelton@hotmail.com, joni@smoe.org >Subject: Re: notches liberation doll and that serpent >Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 12:36:04 EST > >And how about the line, "He chains me with that serpent to that Ethiopian >wall?" > >I know that we can all guess what "that serpent" is, although Joni would >probably deny it, as she did with "boom boom pachyderm." But what is an >Ethiopian wall, aside from a wall in Ethiopia? Is this a reference to poetry >or literature that I'm not getting? > >Thanks, > > --Bob - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: Click Here ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 13:02:47 EST From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: notches liberation doll and that serpent <> I don't think it's necessarily a phallic reference, Bob, although it certainly can be interpreted that way. She makes reference in the song to the story of Adam & Eve: "Wash my guilt of Eden Wash and balance me" (this couplet follows her mention of the serpent) as well as other neo-religious references throughout. So the "serpent" can also be interpreted as the serpent in the Adam and Eve story; that is, the man is "pinning her with the serpent" or blaming women for the temptation and fall of man. The "Ethiopian Wall"...from what I understand, it's believed that the origins of man, at least the earliest cultures, were developed in this area, so I think it could be interpreted as saying that the man is forcing her to return to the (presumed) Biblical origins of man and rubbing THAT in her face too, much the same with the moon reference. What a great song...probably her most cryptic. Bob NP: Collective Soul, "Where The River Flows" ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 13:11:32 EST From: Murphycopy@aol.com Subject: Re: notches liberation doll and that serpent In a message dated 12/17/01 1:02:48 PM, SCJoniGuy writes: << What a great song...probably her most cryptic. >> Thanks for the input, Bob. You're a regular professor of Joni! And as for the song being Joni's most cryptic, I remember when it first came out there was a DJ -- at a great Cambridge, Mass. radio station called WNTN, by the way -- who just kept playing the song over and over and then reading the lyrics on air and asking what it could possibly all mean. Thanks, --Bob ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 10:30:42 -0800 (PST) From: Lori in MD Subject: Re: notches liberation doll Bob wrote: > But the words are "YOUR notches," not "YOU'RE notches." Depends on your reference. It's "your notches" here: http://www.jonimitchell.com/Hissing75LyricsHome.html and here: http://www.jmdl.com/howard/music/tab/sorrow.txt but it's "you're notches" here: http://www.jmdl.com/lyrics/dontinterruptthesorrow.cfm I've always thought "your" was a typo. Anyone? Lori in MD NPIMH: "Snug in your bible belfry ..." ; ) ~ Check out Yahoo! Shopping and Yahoo! Auctionsfor all of your holiday gifts! ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 13:34:26 EST From: Murphycopy@aol.com Subject: Re: notches liberation doll In a message dated 12/17/01 1:30:49 PM, lrfye58@yahoo.com writes: << I've always thought "your" was a typo. Anyone? >> Ai, yi yi yi yi, as Ricky Ricardo would say. The mystery deepens! --Bob ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 13:43:29 EST From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: notches liberation doll and that serpent <> No way! I'm just making guesses like everyone else. Deciphering and discussing her lyrics is one of the joys of this group to me. I don't think Joni puts any of this stuff in at random. I think there are further references to her rejection of the Biblical man/woman relationships: "Truth goes up in vapors The steeples lean" The steeples lean, referring to a church, THE church, leaning...in other words, "crooked" or "not right". "Winds of change patriarchs Snug in your bible belt dreams" Here she turns the tables on her oppressor, refers to him as one of the Patriarchs of the Bible, but telling him that there are 'winds of change'. And what are "dreams" if not fantasy or the absence of reality? "God goes up the chimney Like childhood Santa Claus" This sounds to me like an exclamation point to the whole argument...God as a fantasy, compared to Santa Claus. Eve was promised by the serpent that if she ate from the tree of knowledge she would gain wisdom. She & Adam both became "enlightened" by doing so. Another interesting reference: "I'm leaving on the 1:15 You're darn right" The Adam & Eve story is told in the book of Genesis. If you look at Genesis 1:15, it says: "and let them be lights in the expanse of the sky to give light on the earth." And it was so. It's the part of the creation story where God creates light. Could it also be a reference to creating enlightenment? The female declaring her freedom from the religious oppression and saying "I've seen the light, I'm outta here"? Maybe so, maybe no... Bob NP: Phil Collins, "Everyday" ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 14:16:09 EST From: WARREN901@aol.com Subject: joni and sting hi all, this is in response to kate's posting. kate i totally agree with everything you said about joni and sting. both of them are phenomenal in every way. ( looks and the likes...) i do beleive i remember reading once that sting cited joni as an influence. he went on to say that she was reponsible for opening the door for musicians with a jazz influence to the mainstream of pop. i beleive he was quoted as saying that joni was always leading the way for serious pop artists, a step ahead of the pack so to speak. if someone know this to be fact chime in... ( if he didn't say this he should have ! ) also someone mentioned joni concert stories, i saw the tour that resulted in " miles of aisles " in durham , nc ( duke, ) in 1973 and the BSN tour in atlanta in may of 2000.i was suppose to go to the " court and spark " tour in charlotte , nc but for reason that will remain a mystery i was unable to make it. anyway more on the concert stories later, i'm on my lunch hour... bye, warren keith ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 14:28:47 EST From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: joni concerts <> That would have been in '74, Warren...'73 wasn't a touring year though she did make a couple of appearances, benefits mostly. The Duke show is sorta historic because it resulted in "Spring Songs", which was a popular bootleg. A 2-record set, but only about half of the show, and very poor sound. But it IS interesting that in BYT she changes "apples" to "tobacco" in reference to being in Durham. <> Me too! :~) Bob ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 11:35:31 -0800 From: Richard Goldman Subject: Re: Sting in Tuscany A & E says it is repeating the "Sting in Tuscany" concert this Saturday, 12/22, @ 1 PM. Check your local listings . . . - -Richard, n.p.: "Orange Crush", R.E.M. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 14:45:25 EST From: IVPAUL42@aol.com Subject: Re: Chocolates to state populations In a message dated 12/17/01 11:17:59 AM Eastern Standard Time, bree_mcdonough@hotmail.com writes: > According to a novel I am readin, California has the highest state > >population. > >is this true? > > I would think so? But then you have New York and Big, BIG Texas. Kakki > would know better than I. > > Bree > > Yes, Colin, California is by far the most populous U.S. state, with more > . My 1999 edition of the World Almanac says the next most populous states are Texas with 19 million, New York with 18 millionand Florida with 14 million, though the populations in Texas and Florida are growing much faster than those in California and New York. Pennsylvania, Illinois and Ohio and the other states with populations above 10 million, though Michigan is closing in on that number. The late great Chicago newspaper columnist Mike Royko once wrote that "God tilted the United States and all the loose nuts rolled west to California." Paul I ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 14:52:16 EST From: RobSher50@aol.com Subject: Re: notches liberation doll Dear Hell, Everytime I listen to that song, I hear it as a double meaning. There is the underlying tone that man walked on the moon, not women, but I have always had the strangest feeling she may have actually been talking to a former astronaut. To me, only someone who actually made the "walk" would be so cocky as to try to put Joni in her "place" so to speak. I see the subject of the song as someone very arrogant, powerful and degrading of women. At the time of the recording, he may have been in his fifties or sixties. Then again for a person of this age group, this was probably a very strong belief. This is the way that the song comes alive for me. I see the same type of character in Edith and the Kingpin, only he is more coy and manipulative. I know I've said this before, but when I hear Joni sing about the Kingpin, I always see Omar Sharif in a white suit with a white scarf, an onyx or diamond stickpin in his tie, and a cane. As far as I am concerned, he is, and always will be, my personification of the Kingpin. The same type of male character exists in "Hissing of Summer Lawns," in my opinion. In this song, it's almost like we get a look at the same character of "Don't Interrupt the Sorrow," living in his home environment and treating his wife the way he tried to treat Joni. While we are on the same CD, the character in "Harry's House/Centerpiece" seems to have gotten caught up in the 50's/60's male perception of being the breadwinner and taking care of "the wife." He's not as blatantly domineering as the other two, but he has bought into the mindset. His perceptions are crumbling around him as he realizes he has nothing worth living for anymore. In fact, all of these characters remind me of that 50's/60's perception. It seems like Joni made this a thread throughout the whole album. Can you tell I really like "Hissing of Summer Lawns?" :) Sherelle In a message dated 12/17/2001 11:22:32 AM Pacific Standard Time, les@jmdl.com writes: > Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 23:36:26 +1300 > From: "hell" > Subject: Re: notches liberation doll > > Wally wrote: > > > i've always thought that she meant, ''you're not a person to me, you're > just > > notches on my gun.'' as in you're just onemore broad that has put out. > > That's always how I've interpreted it too - that whole song seems to be > Joni > defending the whole women's rights movement to a very chauvanistic male, > who > has an answer for everything. "We walked on the moon - you be polite", in > other words, "MAN walked on the moon, not women, so show some respect." > > I've always wondered who the man in question actually was. > > Hell ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 12:07:11 -0800 From: Randy Remote Subject: Re: notches liberation doll The lyric, as printed in HOSL's original LP is "Your notches liberation doll" I feel the typo is absence of punctuation: "Your notch's liberation, doll" or "Your notch is liberation, doll", a vulgar sexual reference, a chauvanist's view of what women's lib really is. Only her hairdresser knows for sure....... RR TimandMaryPowers@aol.com wrote: > hello, > > OK, I am clueless (so what else is new?) > > in anima rising, when Joni sings "you're just notches liberation doll" what > does that mean? I know what each word means, but putting it together > confuses me. > > thanks, > > Mary K ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 20:37:16 +0000 From: "c Karma" Subject: re: notches liberation doll I think I've offered my take on "notches liberation doll" once or twice before, but I'll offer it again. I've long suspected the song was written by a furious Joni after the infamous publishing by Rolling Stone of the flow chart of her love life. Rumors have surfaced over the years of a feud between Joni and Jan Wenner resulting from this. There was talk of Joni having publicly thrown a drink at Wenner. In my own convoluted brain, the association the song draws for me is this (all pure speculation): "Anima rising", the goddess of war. "Wash my guilt from Eden, wash and balance me": I'm pissed. Why should I bear the brunt of your double standard, because I'm A WOMAN?!?!? Eve's always the temptress. You wouldn't dare pull this shit on Jagger or Page! The room full of glasses is the place where the drink throwing took place. He says, "your notches liberation doll" is Wenner's response to Joni's confrontation as if to say snidely and derisively, "these are your BELT notches, what's the problem if you're so liberated? "And he pins me with that serpent to that Ethiopian wall": allusion again to Genesis and the garden of Eden, Rolling Stone using the concept of original sin to isolate her (creatively and business wise). Joni's saying that sexism is the problem, and she'll have none of it. Anyone else see it this way? CC _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 15:42:54 EST From: Wtking59@cs.com Subject: Re: virus again? Wally, Bree, et al. I got this incredibly strange message too. Also from a Rebecca Cintron. Almost opened the attachment, but the e-mail was so bizarre and nonsensical that---being highly suspicious---I decided against it. I'm wondering...did anybody actually open the thing? XXXOOO, Billy ------------------------------ Date: 17 Dec 2001 14:23:36 -0800 From: jmichaelpaz@telocity.com Subject: Joni on The Great Stuba Saw this on the web today (hope I am not being redundant or late on this if it has been already posted I am sorry) and thought I would pass it on to you's (damn yankee for y'all). The version I heard is straight off Hejira, but I could not find a total track listing to see if there was any other Joni's there. Later All Paz The Great Stupa is an aspiration for peace, tolerance and compassion. Donated by the musicians in support of this project, the music is a celebration of all cultures and faiths. This commemorative CD was produced to celebrate the official opening of The Great Stupa of Dharmakaya to the public. We are pleased to share the musical contributions of great artists such as: Sting (a new release, only available on this CD), Joni Mitchell, Leonard Cohen, Robben Ford, Steve Tibbetts, Willie Nelson and many more. For a complete list of the artists, please click here. The booklet accompanying the CD is filled with 110 pages of beautiful photographs of the stupa, detailed explanations, and aspirations for world peace. All the proceeds of your purchase are contributed to The Great Stupa. The CD is a great gift idea for birthdays and holidays. This item is only available here and in our Gift Store. To listen to a few choice tracks, please click here. To see the Gift Store On-Line Catalog, please click here. For more information about The Great Stupa and RMSC please click here. Order CD ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 17:27:16 EST From: AsharaProducLLC@aol.com Subject: Fwd: [Jonifest2001] RE: Tapes from Jonifest/Topsfield Return-Path: Received: from rly-yg04.mx.aol.com (rly-yg04.mail.aol.com [172.18.147.4]) by air-yg02.mail.aol.com (v82.22) with ESMTP id MAILINYG24-1217170116; Mon, 17 Dec 2001 17:01:16 -0500 Received: from n3.groups.yahoo.com (n3.groups.yahoo.com [216.115.96.53]) by rly-yg04.mx.aol.com (v83.18) with ESMTP id MAILRELAYINYG43-1217170033; Mon, 17 Dec 2001 17:00:33 -0500 X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2924982-2386-1008626379-AsharaProducLLC=aol.com @returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [216.115.97.164] by n3.groups.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 17 Dec 2001 21:59:39 -0000 X-Sender: mm@celebrityseries.org X-Apparently-To: Jonifest2001@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_1_3); 17 Dec 2001 21:59:35 -0000 Received: (qmail 32891 invoked from network); 17 Dec 2001 21:59:35 -0000 Received: from unknown (216.115.97.171) by m10.grp.snv.yahoo.com with QMQP; 17 Dec 2001 21:59:35 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO fcs-exc1.FCS.local) (65.215.35.202) by mta3.grp.snv.yahoo.com with SMTP; 17 Dec 2001 21:59:33 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.4712.0 content-class: urn:content-classes:message Message-ID: Thread-Topic: Tapes from Jonifest/Topsfield Thread-Index: AcGGhhN1xC92RbjbQEuoGHLQohq9pAAvPOMw To: "Jonifest2001 (E-mail)" From: "Maggie McNally" MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list Jonifest2001@yahoogroups.com; contact Jonifest2001-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list Jonifest2001@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 17:01:19 -0500 Subject: [Jonifest2001] RE: Tapes from Jonifest/Topsfield Reply-To: Jonifest2001@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Mailer: Unknown (No Version) X-Converted-To-Plain-Text: from multipart/alternative by demime 0.97c X-Converted-To-Plain-Text: Alternative section used was text/plain Hello everyone, I need to jump in here to cheerlead for these tapes. I am lucky enough to live near enough to Ashara to have a casual dinner and movie date with her (and Sal -- unfortunately Alex was sick with a nasty cold, thus rendering our double-date rather lopsided). We sat down to watch the wonderfully edited video tape of just one -- occasionally two -- songs from each performer's set and I had a huge smile on my face the whole time. But watching the compilation left me wanting more. Now don't get me wrong...the song choices were wonderful, but I have certain memories from those magical days that I particularly treasure. I'm sure you do too, performance-wise, and they will likely differ from those that others have. The way to be sure that you will be able to see (most) of those moments is to buy the whole set. I know that's what I am going to do. Before seeing the tape on Friday I thought I would only get the compilation, but now I have seen the error of my ways. Repent, or you'll surely be sorry! All the best, Maggie - -----Original Message----- From: AsharaJM@aol.com [mailto:AsharaJM@aol.com] Sent: Sunday, December 16, 2001 6:03 PM To: hugginsm@prodigy.net; joni@smoe.org; Maggie McNally; Jonifest2001@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Tapes from Jonifest/Topsfield Marilyn asked: <> The video tape order is at: http://www.jmdl.com/jonifest/2001tapes.cfm That page also has a complete list of what is on each tape. I know this is really bad timing for people to send money for both the Jonifest deposit and the video tapes, so if you would like the video tapes, but want to send money in January, please just send an e-mail letting me know. Or, if you need more time than that, let's work something out. I need to send the Masters out to be dubbed, and I would like to do that early January. So, e-mail me privately so I can know what kind of numbers we have, and we'll work out the money thing individually. Maggie was over the other night and we watched part of the compilation tape. Maybe she will e-mail everyone and let you know what she thought. Hugs, Ashara ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 22:57:43 +0000 From: colin Subject: Re: notches liberation doll > Anyone else see it this way? not until you gave this good explanation. it works for me. > > > CC > > _________________________________________________________________ > MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: > http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx - -- bw colin DAK,BRO GC, 950i, 940,860,864,890, 260,Silver 830,860, 580 and 270, Passap 6000, Duo80. colin@tantra-apso.com http://www.tantra-apso.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 18:27:44 -0600 From: "mack watson-bush" Subject: Re: Seeing double? Not today Bree but I have in the past. Each time that it happened, I had a huge letter that could not come through and it was clogging my email. Had to delete them elsewhere before it was fixed. Mack > Is anyone out there getting double posts? Two of the same post? I'm not > getting two of everybodys, but about half of the posts. NO!! I haven't had > a drink for at least 24 hours. (but I might very shortly if I don't figure > this out) :-) > > Bree > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: > http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 18:53:33 -0800 From: Michael Paz Subject: Re: "By the time we got to woodstock, I'd already written the song..." Walt One of the funniest posts i have seen in ages. Thanks so much! Paz on 12/17/01 2:43 AM, BigWaltinSF@aol.com at BigWaltinSF@aol.com wrote: > Anyway, saying "joni's worst album" is like saying "the worst orgasm i ever > had was..." > > warmly, > > walt ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 19:52:46 EST From: BigWaltinSF@aol.com Subject: Whose Notches, Liberation Doll? Hi gang, I've been thinking about Anima Rising's lyrics, and I think, impressionistically, I always thought that the male creep in the song was blaming his drinking problem *on* her strength (referring to his empties as *her* "notches" of triumph), when she realizes by the end of the song that it's her strength that makes her *able* to be with/help her man when he "gets weak." Although I may have gotten to this conclusion from having been the enabler in more than one relationship myself. hugs, walt ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 19:57:10 EST From: BigWaltinSF@aol.com Subject: We don' need no steekin' notches... Day late and a dollar short Bob said: But the words are "YOUR notches," not "YOU'RE notches." And I always thought the man was disdainfully referring to the previous line ("A room full of glasses") and then telling the woman that those empty glasses were her notches, as in, "You think you're so great, but all you've done is get loaded and / or get me loaded." In any case, there is a lot of drinking going on in this song. - -- Which is precisely the analysis i'd always had, and sent on to the list *right* before i read his. Oh well. Strange minds think alike. hugs, walt ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 16:58:13 -0800 From: "Bree Mcdonough" Subject: What an erudite group!! ANIMA RISING I'm thoroughly enjoying this you guys. "Don't Interrupt The Sorrow " being one of my all time favs!! I can just sit back, don't have to leave my home........higher- education without having to pay for it. Thanks, Bob&Bob&Lori&Mary&Karma&Randy&Sherelle......and anybody else that weighed in. Bree _________________________________________________________________ Join the worlds largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 20:27:42 -0500 From: "Jim L'Hommedieu \(Lama\)" Subject: Re: notches liberation doll Me too. I vote for "typo". After all, we all know that one about buoy winds, not "boy winds", right? Lamadoo BTW, did anyone else notice that some topics are so popular that they're retread (like this one), while others never catch on? (Like "Fame Itself", and "Why Joni Can't Write". What's up with that? << I've always thought "your" was a typo. Anyone? >> Ai, yi yi yi yi, as Ricky Ricardo would say. The mystery deepens! ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 20:50:00 EST From: Murphycopy@aol.com Subject: Re: notches liberation doll and bully winds In a message dated 12/17/01 8:28:36 PM, jlamadoo@fuse.net writes: << Me too. I vote for "typo". After all, we all know that one about buoy winds, not "boy winds", right? >> I always thought it was "bully winds." That's how Jimmy's favorite -- Dave van Ronk -- sings it. --Bob ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 21:01:09 -0500 From: "Jim L'Hommedieu \(Lama\)" Subject: RE: notches liberation doll and bully winds Yeah. Sorry. I think she meant "bully winds" because they "push them face down" in 'Urge For Going'. If I remember right, it's been copywritten WRONG and it stuck, even in the book of Lyrics. Sheesh! Jim > -----Original Message----- > From: Murphycopy@aol.com [mailto:Murphycopy@aol.com] > I always thought it was "bully winds." That's how Jimmy's > favorite -- Dave > van Ronk -- sings it. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 02:52:48 -0000 From: "owen.duff" Subject: RE: notches liberation doll I did a study of Don't Interrupt the Sorrow at college when I was about 16. I compared it to 'The Colour Purple' by Alice Walker, which we were studying at the time. TCP is loaded with allusions to animism, as is DITS. Animism is a form of pagan religion which believes that every object, animate or otherwise, has a male (animus) and/or female (anima) spirit. Therefore, if you burn a piece of wood, you are releasing its spirit - hence "god goes up the chimney" (the comparison to "childhood santa claus" in the next line also referencing another kind of (fslse) belief). Animism originated in Africa, which was formerly known as Ethiopia, hence the "Ethiopian wall". The song is definitely dealing with feminism and women's lib (as many of you have pointed out), but is also kind of paganist, almost confronting christianity with an alternate truth, one that doesn't blame woman for the fall of man ("wash my guilt of Eden"). Thats about as much as I can remember - I did a big essay on it and I recall being incredibly impressed by the density of the imagery in the song, as was my English teacher, who insisted on photocopying the lyrics for everyone in the class to study. I had kinda worried that Joni's lyrics might not stand up to such detailed analysis(this was early in my Joni loving career), but boy was I wrong! Owen ------------------------------ End of onlyJMDL Digest V2001 #388 ********************************* ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she?