From: les@jmdl.com (onlyJMDL Digest) To: onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Subject: onlyJMDL Digest V2001 #360 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/onlyjoni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com Unsubscribe: mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe onlyJMDL Digest Wednesday, November 21 2001 Volume 2001 : Number 360 The Official Joni Mitchell Homepage, created by Wally Breese, can be found at http://www.jonimitchell.com. It contains the latest news, a detailed bio, Original Interviews, essays, lyrics and much much more. The JMDL website can be found at http://www.jmdl.com and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Today in Joni History: November 20 [les@jmdl.com] Re: Joni's painting & technical terms [TerryM2222@aol.com] Re: Joni's painting & technical terms [dsk ] Re: Joni's painting & Group of Seven ["Kakki" ] Re: Joni's painting/Group of Seven link ["Kakki" ] Chelsea Morning [colin ] Re: A Case [Wtking59@cs.com] Re: 44 seconds of prime Joni cover free! [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: Man of Heart & Mind :-) [Wtking59@cs.com] Re: Joni's painting & Group of Seven [TerryM2222@aol.com] Re: Joni's painting & Group of Seven ["Kakki" ] Painting techniques of the musically gifted. [johnirving > I may have the wrong term, but I had kind of concluded that Joni's style, while reeling from complete abstractiop, through impressionism, to more-or-less realism, was centered on the fauvist idea of the use of color - -- just as John said (in different words, of course). As for my ignorance, I don't know what "value" means, what "form painting" is, nor what "flatness" refers to -- does it have to do with perspective, or it more involved with the manner in which she paints? I'm going now to look it up in my art referneces, but i thought I'd ask here also in case anyone else was puzzled, intrigued, etc. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2001 12:07:43 -0500 From: dsk Subject: Re: Joni's painting & technical terms TerryM2222@aol.com wrote: > > I'm guessing that the "flatness" means that she doesn't modify colors enough > to make things seem more 3 dimensional. I don't see anything wrong with her > relying on colors for expression and content, though. Me either. My initial comment was NOT a criticism of that, merely a description, and I said it ONLY to point out that considering the way she paints (and presumably sees) it's unlikely she'd be doing anything three-dimensional, such as sculpture, which is what Bob M (I think) was wondering about. In subtler ways, that's > what the color field painters did- people like Rothko. In bolder ways- > Pollock. Yes, exactly. Happy Thanksgiving everyone, or an extra happy Thursday if this week's Thursday is just another day for you. Debra Shea ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2001 13:59:36 -0800 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: Joni's painting & Group of Seven Hi Terry > Once it was pointed out to me (by Kakki?) >that she was also influenced by the Canadian >plains artists, things came together for me. I remember writing about it but think maybe Evian? brought it up first? Check out this link and the paintings shown from the Group of Seven - definitely looks like Joni's been either influenced by them or has the same affinity http:www.groupofsevenart.com/ > I see her work now as mainly naive, not in a >negative sense, but as a style known for those >who have not had formal training and whose >use of perspective, line, color >and composition are used intuitively, much like >a child. All this talk here has got me thinking and questioning. Joni attended art school and I wonder just how much she was taught in the way of technique. Did she resist formal training? Or did her teachers forsake technical criticism or instruction in favor of original style? As I wrote the other day, my painting teachers provided minimal or no technical instruction. I have no idea why they had this approach. I recall feel a little cheated in school by their lack of involvement in actual instruction of various techniques other than to give us ideas on new materials and wander the class muttering a comment or two here or there. I wonder if there was a kind of hands-off approach in art instruction that was in vogue in the 60s/early 70s. I know to some extent that some art teachers believed you either "had it" inherently or you didn't. It's something for me to ponder about in retrospect. Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2001 14:02:31 -0800 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: Joni's painting/Group of Seven link Think I goofed the link - it should be http://www.groupofsevenart.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2001 23:20:08 -0000 From: "Garret" Subject: re:44 seconds of prime Joni cover free! i listened to that 44 second clip that you recommended. sounds pretty cool Bob. I want to test your memory, you once (and this was a looooong time ago) put up a link to a site with a version of Dry Cleaner by a Swedish band. (i think you said that they were Swedish) and i downloaded it; this is a really kick ass version, imo, but i don't know who it is. any ideas? and i think that i'd add the version of River by Travis into your list of men singing River well. i really like this version. It's a very straghtforward cover of the song, Fran Healy's vocal even seems to mimic Joni's. of course, the piano is not near as powerful as Joni's! GARRET np: Diana Ross, Imagine >Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2001 22:39:41 EST >From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com >Subject: 44 seconds of prime Joni cover free! > >Stumbled upon this one today while looking for Joni covers: > >http://www.vocalogy.net/mp3s/drycleaner.mp3 > >It's a 44-second excerpt of Vocalogy's cover of "Dry Cleaner"...Manhattan >Transfer style. > >I'm on the case trying to get the entire thing... > >Bob > >NP: Leslie Ritter/Scott Petito, "Woodstock" (ooooooh it's nice!) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2001 23:45:43 +0000 From: colin Subject: Chelsea Morning At ringcraft tonight(no not a satanic ritual) a man of about fifty had an Airdale biytch named Chelsea. After Clinton? No he said after an old song called Chelsea Morning! So we talked a little about Joni. He was unaawre she was still recording but he had her work up to and including C&S. - -- bw colin DAK,BRO GC, 950i, 940,860,864,890, 260,Silver 830,860, 580 and 270, Passap 6000, Duo80. colin@tantra-apso.com http://www.tantra-apso.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2001 19:30:24 EST From: Wtking59@cs.com Subject: Re: A Case John wrote... Last Wednesday, Amsterdam, the Concertgebouw. Diana Krall in Concert. Sounds fabulous John. I've really grown to admire her music recently. And I loved her performance at the TNT Joni Mitchell tribute. As for Natalie Merchant, I certainly didn't mean to open such a can of worms when I mentioned to Mark that I could 'hardly stomach her.' To me, she ranks about even with Lisa Loeb and just below Stevie Nicks--which isn't all that horrible. I agree that we should go back to dissing Celine Dion and Jewel (not to mention Melissa Etheridge and the pretentiously spelled k.d. lang) who are much worse in my book. And as for Britney Spears...we won't even go there! ;~) I mean really, where are PJ Harvey, Sam Phillips, Penelope Houston, or even Maggie Estep (too funny)--among many other notables--on the charts? Billy ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2001 19:47:41 EST From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: 44 seconds of prime Joni cover free! << and i downloaded it; this is a really kick ass version, imo, but i don't know who it is. any ideas? >> Yes indeed Garrett...the name of the band is Kjellerbandet, and that clip is still there, should be easily found with any search engine. Enjoy! Bob NP: The Beatles, "I Got A Woman" ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2001 20:40:22 EST From: Wtking59@cs.com Subject: Re: Man of Heart & Mind :-) Mack wrote... Of all the great Joni tunes, I am always drawn back to this one. In my opinion, the best of the best. The more I listen to For the Roses, it slowly, yet surely, surpasses court and spark. I am lucky for I have yet to discover more Joni as do not have all of the albums yet. Keep listening to Hejira hoping to find it, what I keep reading is there, but have not yet done so. I have to agree with you (and Victor) that "For The Roses" is top notch all the way. I personally like it better than "Blue" (as brilliant as those songs are). It's got to be one of Joni's most complex and challenging records, with "Judgment..." just one knockout among many. I rate it at least equal to "Court And Spark." And I agree too, that it's much better than "Hejira" IMHO. Also, Gary wrote... Being such a fan of Laura Nyro and Joni, and having done many of their songs through the years, guess I just decided to leave well enough alone!!! I have an old recording I did of Laura's "Tom Cat Goodby" that I did back in the '70s and I didn't change a word. Gary & Walt (and, I think, Kakki), you're also Laura Nyro "Tom Cat Goodby" fans! This one miraculous song perfectly encapsulates the greatest aspects of her totally unique art form in just five minutes. I'd love to hear your cover, Gary--and I wish I had a CD recorder so I could burn you a copy of "New York Nights" (Nyro's best bootleg). In the meantime, if I find it anywhere I'll certainly let you know... And Walt, you wrote... I remember her singing Coyote, DJRD the song, Talk To Me and one other song from Hejira when I saw her in '76, whatever tour that was -- between Hissing and Hejira. I saw that tour as well, Walt. February '76--my second Joni concert. Your absolutely right. "Coyote" segued effortlessly into "Don Juan's..." without a break. Both were brand new. I also remember she debuted "Furry Sings The Blues" that night, and it was one of the evenings highlights. The arrangement was totally different from (and, incredible as it may seem, vastly superior to) the recorded version released that November on "Hejira." XXXOOO, Billy ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2001 21:39:58 EST From: TerryM2222@aol.com Subject: Re: Joni's painting & Group of Seven Kakki, Interesting- I was in art school in the early 70s. The formal classes were taught...formally, and I felt I learned a lot. But once I got into the higher studio painting classes, we were left to our own devices. We could paint whatever we wanted. BUT, at the critiques- that's where we learned about the specifics. Not only classical things like composition, color, etc., but we had to defend/explain the reason for our paintings- what problems we were trying to figure out. WHY we were painting that particular piece and how it related to the previous pieces...and what we might do in our next. Great experience. Terry In a message dated 11/20/2001 4:57:54 PM Eastern Standard Time, KakkiB@worldnet.att.net writes: << I wonder if there was a kind of hands-off approach in art instruction that was in vogue in the 60s/early 70s. I know to some extent that some art teachers believed you either "had it" inherently or you didn't. It's something for me to ponder about in retrospect. >> www.addconsults.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2001 19:27:06 -0800 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: Joni's painting & Group of Seven Terry wrote: > I was in art school in the early 70s. The formal classes were > taught...formally, and I felt I learned a lot. But once I got into the higher > studio painting classes, we were left to our own devices. We could paint > whatever we wanted. BUT, at the critiques- that's where we learned about the > specifics. Not only classical things like composition, color, etc., but we > had to defend/explain the reason for our paintings- what problems we were > trying to figure out. WHY we were painting that particular piece and how it > related to the previous pieces...and what we might do in our next. My classes were never very formal - maybe it was an "out west," post-hippie, more laid back thing at that time ;-) We were left to our own devices from the beginning but always did critiques. The teaching approach I experienced was more oriented toward concepts and creative problem-solving. My school was very good in that repsect - but VERY lite on technical aspects, which I did not like. They did present many technical aspects which applied to any media in the design classes, however, and required endless semesters of art history. I could have gone to a pure art school but wanted the broader university experience, so something was probably lost and something gained. Joni may have been too busy with her college concert performances in art school, and may have diverted her focus somewhat from her painting, too. Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2001 22:43:29 -0600 From: johnirving Subject: Painting techniques of the musically gifted. Hi Walt, Thanks for the interest in Joni's paintings. I majored in painting and earned a master's degree. What I learned about painting then could fill a thimble. The same frustrations Joni had in art school was shared by so many of us. We were eager to learn, but sold short by a well intended movement. -So much for good intentions. Modern art was the death knell of art instruction. Thankfully, the tide is turning. I'm learning to paint. Joni's learning to paint. I just hope I don't have to learn to compose music. Please, Joni. Please. 3 more cd's on the level of Hejira is all I ask. Now is that too much? I think not. Somewhere in the 13th century, Artist nailed down the principles of painting form (the illusion of 3 dimensional mass and volume). The strongest way to convey volume is rendering the effects of light and shadow on forms. It's the value diffences of light reflected off forms that create the illusion. Drawing this was easy. Painting it another thing. What solved the problem was figuring out how to degrees of light and dark (in color) as one would drawing it in black and white. The solution artists arrived at was pre-mixing values of color. Egg tempera was the general method of painting back then. Egg yolk, water and powdered pigment equalled paint. The problem with this paint is it dries too fast to blend colors. The solution artists arrived at was pre-mixing values of color from light to dark. Having the spectrum of color value to work from, it was 'just' a matter of laying the right values of color next to each other. When oil painting was invented, the artist still applied the old technique of pre-mixing color values ahead of time. So in a sense, Rembrandt, Vermeer, Titian, Raphael all painted by numbers. Make a scale of light to dark in black and white, then mix colors of equal values from light to dark. Substitute the proper hues for the underpainting of proper values, and boom: form. The more accurate the color values, the more 'real' the illusion of form. -Beginning with the impressionists, the idea of preset mixes of color was replaced by 'open' palettes. Colors squished out of the tube and freely intermixed. The made for great "hue" painting. In time, the lesson of color value became more and more 'lost.' An in turn, form becomes more and more flat. With all the colors squeezed out and freely mixed, the average person would look at this pretty collection of hues and think that making painting was about getting the 'color' right, when they should be thinking about getting both the hue and value right. Joni is on the cusp of understanding this. If she's squinting, she's squinting to see value, not color. Color is gauged with eyes wide open. Value is better seen by squinting to eliminate some of the saturation of hue... make it appear greyer, so to speak. Grey scales held up to the object, and placed underneath the glass of the paint palette is the ultimate tool for form painting. -In comparison to the impressionists way, it can seem dry. It depends on what you want your painting to look like. Going for a Matisse look, open palette. But if you want the work to look like Vermeer, Sargent, or Norman Rockwell, it's time to think values. I think Joni is looking for a happy medium between the two. She wants the freedom, but craves the form as well. Part of her duality, I think. Sorry to all for the art lesson. John. ------------------------------ End of onlyJMDL Digest V2001 #360 ********************************* ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she?