From: les@jmdl.com (onlyJMDL Digest) To: onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Subject: onlyJMDL Digest V2001 #243 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/onlyjoni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com Unsubscribe: mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe onlyJMDL Digest Friday, August 10 2001 Volume 2001 : Number 243 The Official Joni Mitchell Homepage, created by Wally Breese, can be found at http://www.jonimitchell.com. It contains the latest news, a detailed bio, Original Interviews, essays, lyrics and much much more. The JMDL website can be found at http://www.jmdl.com and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. Information on the 4th "Annual" New England JoniFest: http://www.jmdl.com/jfne2001.cfm ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Today in Joni History: August 9 [les@jmdl.com] Uncritical critics [Gordon Mackie ] Re: Uncritical critics [AzeemAK@aol.com] Re: Uncritical critics ["colin" ] Re: Passion Play [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: the chelsea [Jerry Notaro ] re: Passion Play ["c Karma" ] Re: How do you stop. [Alison E ] Re: the chelsea ["shane mattison" ] re: Passion Play [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] re: Passion Play ["c Karma" ] re: Passion Play [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: Passion Play ["Sharon L. Buffington" ] List info [Les Irvin ] RE: Joni's rhymes [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: joni and kiss baby [Randy Remote ] Re: Joni's rhymes ["Jim L'Hommedieu" ] Re: joni and kiss baby ["Sharon L. Buffington" ] Re: dylan said to joni [Relayer211@aol.com] Re: Passion Play ["Mark or Travis" ] o superman [Nuriel Tobias ] Re: dylan said to joni ["shane mattison" ] Re: Passion Play ["hell" ] Re: the url of chelsea ["hell" ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 09 Aug 2001 03:58:36 -0400 From: les@jmdl.com Subject: Today in Joni History: August 9 On August 9 in Joni Mitchell History: 1974: Joni performs in Toronto. - ------------------------ Search the "Today" database: http://www.jmdl.com/today ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2001 10:40:44 +0100 From: Gordon Mackie Subject: Uncritical critics Ken Evans wrote France actually has this law now that says that if you are ambitious and want to get ahead by working more than 30 hours a week that you're not allowed to. What can I say...? Really, what can I say? Marcel...what is common sense ? Common to whom? I would beware any notion of common sense at all costs. Honest! Looking forward to the posts on this. Love Gordon ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2001 07:53:48 EDT From: AzeemAK@aol.com Subject: Re: Uncritical critics In a message dated 09/08/01 10:52:02 GMT Daylight Time, gordon.mackie@strath.ac.uk writes: << Ken Evans wrote France actually has this law now that says that if you are ambitious and want to get ahead by working more than 30 hours a week that you're not allowed to. >> Oh really, is that what the law says? Presumably, if you're unambitious and don't want to get ahead, you can work more than 30 hours a week. Azeem ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2001 13:11:29 +0100 (GMT Daylight Time) From: "colin" Subject: Re: Uncritical critics what is common sense ? colin replies: the defination is the same as it is for those say 'all decent people think so and so. In other words whoever agrees with the person defining common sense. The definiton of power is getting others to agree with your perceptions/definitions, your view of the world. Some people get very uptight when people don't see the world as they see it. Due to ignorance of how our minds work and how we each perceive differently and therefore construct different meanings and thus see our world's differently. Common to whom? I would beware any notion of common sense at all costs. Honest! Looking forward to the posts on this. Love Gordon ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 09 Aug 2001 08:11:23 EDT From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: Passion Play <> I'd never thought of this twist on the colors, Sharon. The challenge for me has always been making sense of that part, but you have a great perspective on it! Bob NP: DMB, "Big Eyed Fish" ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 01 Jan 1904 05:58:31 -0500 From: Jerry Notaro Subject: Re: the chelsea Alison E wrote: > --- shane mattison wrote: > > Woke up, it was a Chelsea morning, > > > JONI WRITES CHELSEA MORNING WHILE STAYING HERE... > > well, didn't joni live in chelsea? (why yes, she did!) Rufus Wainwright wrote his latest cd Poses while staying at the Chelsea Hotel. Jerry ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 09 Aug 2001 15:08:31 +0000 From: "c Karma" Subject: re: Passion Play I'm sticking to my own interpretation: Joni wrote this to describe an awakening she had in regard to control of her own career(s) in her various art disciplines. She draws the analogy to Mary Magdalene to parallel her having been "whored" by the record industry, then vilified: "All around the market place, the buzzing of the flies, the buzzing and the stinging" (witness HOSL, Mingus, et al.). Recently, disclosure about her and Larry having suffered a miscarriage during the period this song was likely written might help explain "Divinely barren and wickedly wise the killer nails are ringing." Joni was obviously writing from a very sensitive and fragile perspective, sadly this is often her best vantage point. So far, I personally think that "Exxon Blue" and "Radiation Rose" are simply colors, named like ones you would find in a Crayola crayon box. They sound great together, too. They might refer obscurely to "Roses Blue" from "Clouds" but I doubt it. If they carry other associations that work for you, enjoy them. I think that her writing is often both less complicated and less linear than we as pundits might seek. Sometimes it just sounds and feels right and that's what makes it poetry. CC "Oh, what do you know about living in Turbulent Indigo?" -- JM _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2001 08:28:57 -0700 (PDT) From: Alison E Subject: Re: How do you stop. - --- johnirving wrote: > Ok, it's not a Joni song... but the way I've always > taken the meaning of > the questioning in How do you stop, (ie. how to stop > growing corn or a > baby being born) is that it's not meant to be a > direct question. (Which > begets direct answers: Obviously abortion, poisons, > etc.) > john. it's funny, i guess because i've watched a baby actually being born, that's what *always* instantly pops into my head when i hear the song, and when i read your post. i think the song is trying to relate that unstoppable sense, that urgency, inevitability. it's very effective imagery for me. there's no way to keep a baby from coming out of the womb once the labor process has begun. unless their little shoulders get stuck, like my godson, but that's another story. i think if you've ever seen a baby actually coming out of a woman, it's pretty scarring. literally, ha ha. no, really, it's magical and incredible and it's why i use birth control unfailingly. LOL. alison e. in nyc Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2001 11:12:52 -0600 From: "shane mattison" Subject: Re: the chelsea jerry wrote: <> cool jerry...i just watched his video 'california'...seems in harmony with joni all right... shane - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jerry Notaro" To: "Alison E" Cc: "shane mattison" ; Sent: Friday, January 01, 1904 4:58 AM Subject: Re: the chelsea > Alison E wrote: > > > --- shane mattison wrote: > > > Woke up, it was a Chelsea morning, > > > > > JONI WRITES CHELSEA MORNING WHILE STAYING HERE... > > > > well, didn't joni live in chelsea? (why yes, she did!) > > Rufus Wainwright wrote his latest cd Poses while staying at the Chelsea > Hotel. > > Jerry ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 09 Aug 2001 13:16:32 EDT From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: re: Passion Play <> You can certainly do that, CC, but I think it takes heavy denial to do so. After all, she's written her fair share of "I Hate Show Business" songs, and this one has a whole different feel. And how do these lines fit into your analysis?: <> Is she referring to David Geffen? I don't think so! <> Why segue from a description of Jesus & Mary Magdalene to a segue of Jesus & Zaccheus, if Jesus isn't a central reason for the song? And would Joni ever refer to herself as "A sinner of some position"? Maybe in a sarcastic way, but I don't hear the sarcasm here. The melody is pretty, as is her voice when she sings the song; very tender & kind. <> Refers to Jesus' miracles of healing and his charisma to reach large groups of people through his passion & compassion. <> Lifted straight from The Lord's Prayer... <> Finishes the Zaccheus story; Zaccheus' encounter with Jesus influenced him to return all the monies he had swindled, with a profit to boot. <> You said: "I think that her writing is often both less complicated and less linear than we as pundits might seek."...so why not interpret the above in a less complicated way? Joni wasn't "barren" be definition, she'd previously given birth. Why is there a "multitude" of Christ-like references, if he's not a prime motivation for the song? By the same token, "Judgement of the Moon & Stars" is all about Beethoven, and ALSO all about her... <> This one's the biggest stretch of all for me...do you sincerely think she chose the words "Exxon" & "radiation" at random, or because they sounded good with Blue & Rose? So be it, I guess, but I think you really have to dig a bit more than that. Don't get me wrong: we all bring our own wisdom & experiences to these songs, and neither of us is right or wrong. I enjoyed your post very much! Another point in this song is the pattern of the inserted words of the chorus: Ecstasy Misery Apathy Tragedy Is it random? Why not repeat the same word each time? Like I say, I don't know any more than the next guy, but I DO enjoy talking about it! Bob NP: Sugar, "Granny Cool" ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 09 Aug 2001 17:46:26 +0000 From: "c Karma" Subject: re: Passion Play Bob wrote me: do you sincerely think she chose the words "Exxon" & "radiation" at random, or because they sounded good with Blue & Rose? So be it, I guess, but I think you really have to dig a bit more than that. Speculating, I feel she wants us to think of specific colors here, perhaps only for an expressionistic purpose. Blue like that seen in the Exxon sign, and Rose like the eerie radiation glow seen on objects lit by sodium vapor street lights from above. The more I describe how simply I choose to interpret this, the more complicated and obtuse it gets. Some things are better left the province of one's own construction. This song may be one of them. CC "Then I started analyzing and I brought on my old ways." -- JM >From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com >To: , , > >Subject: re: Passion Play >Date: Thu, 09 Aug 2001 13:16:32 EDT > ><awakening she had in regard to control of her own career(s) in her various >art disciplines. >> > >You can certainly do that, CC, but I think it takes heavy denial to do so. >After all, she's written her fair share of "I Hate Show Business" songs, >and this one has a whole different feel. And how do these lines fit into >your analysis?: > ><> > >Is she referring to David Geffen? I don't think so! > ><Looking through the leaves >A sinner of some position >Who in the world can this heart healer be >This magical physician>> > >Why segue from a description of Jesus & Mary Magdalene to a segue of Jesus >& Zaccheus, if Jesus isn't a central reason for the song? And would Joni >ever refer to herself as "A sinner of some position"? Maybe in a sarcastic >way, but I don't hear the sarcasm here. The melody is pretty, as is her >voice when she sings the song; very tender & kind. > ><The walking wounded >They come to this diver of the heart>> > >Refers to Jesus' miracles of healing and his charisma to reach large groups >of people through his passion & compassion. > ><Thy will be done>> > >Lifted straight from The Lord's Prayer... > ><From the middle of unrest >They think is light is squandered >But he sees a stray in the wilderness >And I see how far I've wandered>> > >Finishes the Zaccheus story; Zaccheus' encounter with Jesus influenced him >to return all the monies he had swindled, with a profit to boot. > ><The buzzing of the flies >The buzzing and the stinging >Divinely barren >And wickedly wise >The killer nails are ringing>> > >You said: "I think that her writing is often both less complicated and less >linear than we as pundits >might seek."...so why not interpret the above in a less complicated way? >Joni wasn't "barren" be definition, she'd previously given birth. > >Why is there a "multitude" of Christ-like references, if he's not a prime >motivation for the song? By the same token, "Judgement of the Moon & Stars" >is all about Beethoven, and ALSO all about her... > ><simply colors, named like ones you would find in a Crayola crayon box. >> > >This one's the biggest stretch of all for me...do you sincerely think she >chose the words "Exxon" & "radiation" at random, or because they sounded >good with Blue & Rose? So be it, I guess, but I think you really have to >dig a bit more than that. > >Don't get me wrong: we all bring our own wisdom & experiences to these >songs, and neither of us is right or wrong. I enjoyed your post very much! > >Another point in this song is the pattern of the inserted words of the >chorus: > >Ecstasy >Misery >Apathy >Tragedy > >Is it random? Why not repeat the same word each time? > >Like I say, I don't know any more than the next guy, but I DO enjoy talking >about it! > >Bob > >NP: Sugar, "Granny Cool" _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 09 Aug 2001 14:06:36 EDT From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: re: Passion Play <> True, and regardless of interpretation, it's one of the prettiest songs on the record. It really stuck out the first time I heard it, and that was BEFORE I sat down with the lyrics, because I was listening to a tape of the record that my friend David had made me. Bob NP: The Subdudes, "late at night" ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 09 Aug 2001 14:43:04 -0500 From: "Sharon L. Buffington" Subject: Re: Passion Play Bob: I was thinking about Passion Play and then certain lines from "As You Like It" began lapping at my brian...and I hope this is accurate...but it goes: "And this our life, exempt from public haunt, Finds tongues in trees, books in the running brooks, Sermons in stones, and good in everything. I would not change it" Do not quote me on it though....long time since I learned it. We all find solace in different ways..... Sharon SCJoniGuy@aol.com wrote: > > < art disciplines. >> > > You can certainly do that, CC, but I think it takes heavy denial to do so. After all, she's written her fair share of "I Hate Show Business" songs, and this one has a whole different feel. And how do these lines fit into your analysis?: > > <> > > Is she referring to David Geffen? I don't think so! > > < Looking through the leaves > A sinner of some position > Who in the world can this heart healer be > This magical physician>> > > Why segue from a description of Jesus & Mary Magdalene to a segue of Jesus & Zaccheus, if Jesus isn't a central reason for the song? And would Joni ever refer to herself as "A sinner of some position"? Maybe in a sarcastic way, but I don't hear the sarcasm here. The melody is pretty, as is her voice when she sings the song; very tender & kind. > > < The walking wounded > They come to this diver of the heart>> > > Refers to Jesus' miracles of healing and his charisma to reach large groups of people through his passion & compassion. > > < Thy will be done>> > > Lifted straight from The Lord's Prayer... > > < >From the middle of unrest > They think is light is squandered > But he sees a stray in the wilderness > And I see how far I've wandered>> > > Finishes the Zaccheus story; Zaccheus' encounter with Jesus influenced him to return all the monies he had swindled, with a profit to boot. > > < The buzzing of the flies > The buzzing and the stinging > Divinely barren > And wickedly wise > The killer nails are ringing>> > > You said: "I think that her writing is often both less complicated and less linear than we as pundits > might seek."...so why not interpret the above in a less complicated way? Joni wasn't "barren" be definition, she'd previously given birth. > > Why is there a "multitude" of Christ-like references, if he's not a prime motivation for the song? By the same token, "Judgement of the Moon & Stars" is all about Beethoven, and ALSO all about her... > > <> > > This one's the biggest stretch of all for me...do you sincerely think she chose the words "Exxon" & "radiation" at random, or because they sounded good with Blue & Rose? So be it, I guess, but I think you really have to dig a bit more than that. > > Don't get me wrong: we all bring our own wisdom & experiences to these songs, and neither of us is right or wrong. I enjoyed your post very much! > > Another point in this song is the pattern of the inserted words of the chorus: > > Ecstasy > Misery > Apathy > Tragedy > > Is it random? Why not repeat the same word each time? > > Like I say, I don't know any more than the next guy, but I DO enjoy talking about it! > > Bob > > NP: Sugar, "Granny Cool" ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 09 Aug 2001 14:47:32 -0500 From: "Sharon L. Buffington" Subject: Re: joni and kiss baby Diana's new CD is due out next month. I can hardly wait. shane mattison wrote: > > canada's national post has a sense of humour: > > < But you'll find them sidling up to each other in print soon. Pamela Wallin has > a book out in September that draws on interviews from Joni, Henry and scores > of others. It's called Speaking of Success: Collected Wisdom and Intimate > Insights (Key Porter Books).>> > FDRfan ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2001 16:01:18 -0400 From: "Jim L'Hommedieu" Subject: RE: Joni's rhymes This is a thing that Joni does that I love. She blows the meter with clarification. She mispronounces words to FORCE a rhyme. She's almost always exciting to listen to. She's anything but boring. (This from a woman who's most famous song includes the infamous rhyme "moons" and "junes". What was she thinking there? Did she do it on purpose, forcing us to think about the conventional? Surely not out of laziness! Lama *** Deb Messling had this take: OTOH, I can think of instances where she overlooks the obvious rhyme in favor of a word she likes better. (Emily Dickinson did the same thing). An early version of A Case of You has her rhyming "live in a box of paints" with "drawn to those ones that ain't." In the recorded version, she adds the word "afraid," which blows the meter as well as the rhyme, but clarifies the meaning. Actually, to change the subject, I like the FIRST version of the song, with the line "and I'm scared to death by saints." Me too! > Notice the way Joni uses words, even sometimes mispronouncing them to make > the rhyme work. Like in Don't Interrupt > the Sorrow, clandestine she uses in > conjunction with wine, when the correct > (according to the dictionary) way would > be to couple it with win, or sin. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 09 Aug 2001 12:51:10 -0600 From: Les Irvin Subject: List info Hi Joniphiles - A couple bits of info for you on the JMDL. For almost a year now, the list has been archived by an off-site service. It's interesting to check out their archive as the messages are sorted by thread and are searchable by keyword. Makes a nice resource for tracking down old posts quickly. It appears that they run anywhere from one to three days behind on their archiving, however. Find it here: http://www.mail-archive.com/joni%40smoe.org/ Here's the current breakdown on the list census. This does not take into account those who may be subbed to more than one list or under more than one address: Total of 814 subscribers: Joni list: 104 (12.7%) Joni-Digest list: 520 (63.8%) Only-Joni list: 40 (4.9%) Only-Joni-Digest list: 150 (18.4%) Back to lurk mode... Les ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 09 Aug 2001 17:04:46 EDT From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: RE: Joni's rhymes <<(This from a woman who's most famous song includes the infamous rhyme "moons" and "junes". What was she thinking there? Did she do it on purpose, forcing us to think about the conventional? >> Yes, I think she uses it for effect...after all, it's an internal rhyme, the actual rhyme as far as the song is concerned is "wheels, feel, real"...Moons/Junes is a bonus rhyme she gives us free of charge! ;~) It's one of the things that makes BSN such a great song. Bob NP: The Story, "So Much Mine" (a must-have for Jonatha fans) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 09 Aug 2001 14:28:07 -0700 From: Randy Remote Subject: Re: joni and kiss baby When I saw this subject line, for a second I thought Joni had a baby with Gene Simmons. "Sharon L. Buffington" wrote: > Diana's new CD is due out next month. I can hardly wait. > > shane mattison wrote: > > > > canada's national post has a sense of humour: > > > > < > But you'll find them sidling up to each other in print soon. Pamela Wallin has > > a book out in September that draws on interviews from Joni, Henry and scores > > of others. It's called Speaking of Success: Collected Wisdom and Intimate > > Insights (Key Porter Books).>> > > FDRfan ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2001 17:38:37 -0400 From: "Jim L'Hommedieu" Subject: Re: Joni's rhymes Nope. Closest I could think of is "limpid". As in "Exquisitely limpid The original classic thing - more of the same" but then... THAT WAS DONALD AND WALTER TOO! Bob Muller said, "I crawl like a viper through these suburban streets, Make love to these women, languid & bittersweet"...has anyone else ever used the word "languid" in a rock and roll song? Always glad to help make someone make a point, Lama ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 09 Aug 2001 16:46:47 -0500 From: "Sharon L. Buffington" Subject: Re: joni and kiss baby Better than Richard Simmons...now even I would have been surprised at that!!! Randy Remote wrote: > > When I saw this subject line, for a second I thought Joni had a > baby with Gene Simmons. > > "Sharon L. Buffington" wrote: > > > Diana's new CD is due out next month. I can hardly wait. > > > > shane mattison wrote: > > > > > > canada's national post has a sense of humour: > > > > > > < > > But you'll find them sidling up to each other in print soon. Pamela Wallin has > > > a book out in September that draws on interviews from Joni, Henry and scores > > > of others. It's called Speaking of Success: Collected Wisdom and Intimate > > > Insights (Key Porter Books).>> > > > FDRfan ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2001 14:32:44 -0700 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: RE: JMDL Digest V2001 #340 Hi Bob, I am glad to hear you liked Glen...he's a local SB guy & plays around town a bunch...I like him a lot too... Bob wrote, "Also, while I'm thinking about TW covers, I went last night to see Glen Phillips, and it was a great show. He was the lead singer/songwriter for Toad the Wet Sprocket, did all of their hits, some stuff off his new solo record, and an acapella version of TW's "Johnsburg, IL". Nice stuff!" ******************************************** Kate Bennett www.katebennett.com sponsored by Polysonics www.polysonics.com Discover the Indies at Taylor Guitars: http://www.taylorguitars.com/artists/awp/indies/bennett.html ******************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2001 20:29:11 EDT From: Relayer211@aol.com Subject: Re: dylan said to joni I was just reading an interview with Neil Diamond where Neil said he hung out back stage with Dylan and Joni before the "Last Waltz" concert. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2001 19:58:48 -0700 From: "Mark or Travis" Subject: Re: Passion Play > <> > > This one's the biggest stretch of all for me...do you sincerely think she chose the words "Exxon" & "radiation" at random, or because they sounded good with Blue & Rose? So be it, I guess, but I think you really have to dig a bit more than that. This is one of my favorite Joni songs from one of my favorite albums. Part of the reason I love it is that I've never been able to completely figure out what she's trying to say. There seems to be a more than average amount of ambiguity about this one that makes it all the more fascinating to me. Unless I'm completely missing something here which is entirely possible. I agree with Bob that the choice of Exxon Blue and radiation rose is not random or without meaning. Both could be seen as references to environmental issues. I think this song was written some time but not a long time after the Exxon Valdez debacle. To me the two words she attaches to these colors have a negative and threatening connotation. By extension they could be seen as references to the large corporations, industries and governments that hold the reins of power in our modern world. The title of the song and the phrase 'enter the multitudes' makes the line sound like a stage direction. Blue & rose might be the colors of the costumes the multitudes are wearing or it might be the colors of the lights. Stage lights are usually gelled in shades of pink (or amber) and blue. I like the light interpretation. It calls up the image of the multitudes entering under blue neon lights coupled with the rose glow of radioactivity. A toxic mix, if ever there was one. Kind of fits in with the image of a sickened planet that she presents later in 'Slouching Toward Bethlehem' where she talks about the beast of the Apocalypse and hopes that the spirit of this world will 'heal and rise'. At any rate, I've always felt that by using the references to Exxon & radiation she's setting the story of Christ's Passion against a modern day backdrop in 'Passion Play'. But to me the line that is the most telling and in some ways the most cryptic is 'Who you gonna get to do the dirty work when all the slaves are free?' I can see at least two interpretations of this line, based on two points of view that she might be taking. If she's speaking as a true believer that Christ's vision of the world will truly come to pass on this earth, then she's asking this question of the world's power mongers. In a world of peace & love where all are treated equally with compassion and respect, how can you continue enslaving and exploiting the poor & downtrodden? Who's going to work in your sweat shops for next to nothing? Who's going to clean your toilets, cook your food and do your laundry for you in such a world? Who's going to care for you when you're old and infirm? Who's going to work in your mines, mow your lawns or haul away your garbage? On the other hand, maybe she's playing devil's advocate. Maybe she's asking Jesus how he expects a world so completely at odds with his philosophy to function if his teachings are truly followed. If you look at nature, the prime directive of it's myriad creations is survival. And the law of evolution is survival of the fittest. The teachings of Christ would seem to be incongruous with this. The concerns of survival, whether it be of an individual or a species, would seem to leave no room for compassion for those that are less than fit. Doesn't survival mean looking out for number one? Where is there provision for helping the sick or the infirm to survive in a dog eat dog world? And certainly providing the less than fit a good quality of life is completely out of the question. If you take apart the system of oppressor and oppressed - the whole pecking order of have and have-not, the food chain of modern civilization - the world will surely grind to a halt and everything will crumble into dust.... Kind of like 'Atlas Shrugged'. You may be right, Kakki! There may be some Ayn Rand in there! > Another point in this song is the pattern of the inserted words of the chorus: > > Ecstasy > Misery > Apathy > Tragedy > > Is it random? Why not repeat the same word each time? The lyrics to this song are so beautifully written. I love the line 'Magdalene is trembling like as washing on a line'. What a wonderful description! And those words Bob mentions sum up the mood of each verse so well. Magdalene's ectasy. The misery of the multitudes that the heart-healer seeks to relieve. The apathy that caused the stray to wander so far. The tragedy of the crucifixion. > > Like I say, I don't know any more than the next guy, but I DO enjoy talking about it! Neither do I but it's certainly obvious that I enjoy talking about it too. If anybody's still reading by now, thanks for your patience with my rambling. Mark in Seattle ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2001 22:10:38 -0700 (PDT) From: Nuriel Tobias Subject: o superman "i saw an aging creeple selling superman baloons" - now is'nt that what cristopher reeve's doing these days? _____________________________________________________________ Free email, web pages, news, entertainment, weather and MORE! Check out -------------------------------> http://wowmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2001 23:53:45 -0600 From: "shane mattison" Subject: Re: dylan said to joni yes it seems joni and bob have a pal kind of relationship sometimes, where each makes light of the others quirks and quarks...i like it...the king and queen are on good terms usually...and all is well in chelsea... shane - ----- Original Message ----- From: To: ; Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2001 6:29 PM Subject: Re: dylan said to joni > > > I was just reading an interview with Neil Diamond where Neil said he hung > out back stage with Dylan and Joni before the "Last Waltz" concert. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2001 17:49:30 +1200 From: "hell" Subject: Re: Passion Play I haven't really sat down and thought much about the lyrics of this song in the past, but it's one I've never really understood, so have finally made the effort! My results (however misguided they may be) follow. I've deliberately ignored other people's interpretations, and just gone with my own feelings. I think this song is about the interactions of religion and technology. I've dissected the lyrics as follows: "Magdalene is trembling Like a washing on a line Trembling and gleaming Never before was a man so kind Never so redeeming" Mary Magdalene, one of the first "sinners", trembling with fear and relief, forgiven by Jesus, the great redeemer. She is gleaming with happiness, having been "washed clean" of her sins. This gives us our first reference to religion and Christianity. "Enter the multitudes In Exxon blue In radiation rose" The multitudes - Christianity started with one man (Jesus) and a handful of followers, now it numbers in the millions. Also now there are billions more people in the world, and technology has advanced exponentially as a result, with the discovery of nuclear power, etc. Exxon blue - blue is also a term for mistake, eg. the sinking of the Exxon Valdez. We've made several technological mistakes. Radiation rose - rose may refer to the lesions formed in radiation sickness, similar to the old nursery rhyme "Ring of Roses" referring to the pustules formed by bubonic plague - a symptom of our mistakes. "Now you tell me Who you gonna get to do the dirty work When all the slaves are free? (Who're you gonna get)" Who is left to take the blame for our technological blunders, if religion can "forgive us our sins"? "I am up a sycamore Looking through the leaves A sinner of some position Who in the world can this heart healer be This magical physician" I think these first three lines mean that although she is a non-believer and feels superior in her beliefs, she feels she is not seeing clearly, ie. her vision or perceptions are obscured (by the leaves). Then perhaps she's questioning the basis of Christianity, that a religion can be based on just one man's philosophies, and how could someone literally heal someone with the touch of a hand. Or perhaps as a more indirect concept, how can we magically be forgiven no matter what we do, and therefore have no need to accept any responsibility? "Enter the multitudes The walking wounded They come to this diver of the heart Of the multitudes Thy kingdom come Thy will be done" The walking wounded - the everyday sinners who come to Christianity to be forgiven their sins, in the knowledge that they will be redeemed and eventually go to the kingdom, ie. heaven, if God so wills it, despite their sins. "Oh, climb down, climb down he says to me From the middle of unrest" Come down from the sycamore tree, stop your questioning and see clearly. "They think his light is squandered But he sees a stray in the wilderness And I see how far I've wandered" The sceptics and non-believers don't understand how if Christianity or God has this power, why do mistakes like the sinking of the Exxon Valdez happen? But the basis of Christianity says that each individual is what is important, not the global actions of the "multitudes", and she realises how far from the truth her perceptions were. "Oh, all around the marketplace The buzzing of the flies The buzzing and the stinging Divinely barren And wickedly wise The killer nails are ringing" Perhaps an early reference to Ethiopia (before the song of the same name), or perhaps the spread of Aids in Africa via mosquitoes - the buzzing of the flies, the stinging and the killer nails. It seems to be a departure from the radiation theme, although "divinely barren" may refer to the sterilisation effect of radiation. Maybe technology is "wickedly wise" in making people in these countries sterile to off-set over-population? As for the changing lyric: "Ecstasy, Misery, Apathy, Tragedy" could this reference the history of the whole nuclear debate, or technology in general? Initially Ecstasy at the discovery of a new weapon, power source, etc. Misery after the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, as the implications are realised. Apathy as people think "well, we can't stop the big companies from using this technology, so why fight it?" Tragedy as the after-effects of Hiroshima, Chernobyl etc. are realised, sometimes many years later. This is probably the first time I've analysed any song in this much depth, and if you've waded through this far, congratulations, you deserve a medal! Hell _________________________________ "To have great poets, there must be great audiences too." - Walt Whitman hell@ihug.co.nz Hell's Personal Photo Page: http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~hell/main/personal.htm Visit the NBLs (Natural Born Losers) at: http://www.nbls.co.nz ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2001 18:05:05 +1200 From: "hell" Subject: Re: the url of chelsea Shane wrote: > the fantasmagizmotic url of chelsea: > > http://www.hotelchelsea.com/ The site states: "Joni Mitchell, musician Jazz influenced musician who rose from California folk rock scene to become a powerful pop musician in the 70s. She wrote the popular melancholy song "Chelsea Morning" while staying at the hotel." Chelsea Morning is melancholy? How the hell would they describe Blue or River then!? Maybe something like "wrist-slashingly depressing"! Hell ____________________________ "To have great poets, there must be great audiences too." - Walt Whitman hell@ihug.co.nz Hell's Personal Photo Page: http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~hell/main/personal.htm Visit the NBLs (Natural Born Losers) at: http://www.nbls.co.nz ------------------------------ End of onlyJMDL Digest V2001 #243 ********************************* ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she?