From: les@jmdl.com (onlyJMDL Digest) To: onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Subject: onlyJMDL Digest V2001 #221 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/onlyjoni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com Unsubscribe: mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe onlyJMDL Digest Thursday, July 19 2001 Volume 2001 : Number 221 The Official Joni Mitchell Homepage, created by Wally Breese, can be found at http://www.jonimitchell.com. It contains the latest news, a detailed bio, Original Interviews, essays, lyrics and much much more. The JMDL website can be found at http://www.jmdl.com and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. Information on the 4th "Annual" New England JoniFest: http://www.jmdl.com/jfne2001.cfm ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Today in Joni History: July 18 [les@jmdl.com] re: Hello i'm new! [LXROSS@ctrl.co.uk] Re: Hello i'm new! ["hell" ] Re: Mermaid Cafe & Carey Trivia ["hell" ] Re: joni on cobain ["hell" ] Re: Hello i'm new! [Catherine McKay ] re: Hello i'm new! [Catherine McKay ] Re: Hello i'm new! [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Suicidio [Gordon Mackie ] Last Waltz (vljc) [SMEBD@aol.com] Topsfield or Bust!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ["Victor Johnson" ] Re: JMDL UNSUSCRIBE ME PLEASE!!! [HeJlRa@aol.com] Shadows and Light availability [mark.robertson@bt.com] false alarm? ["Bill Dollinger" ] Lively Up The List (was UNSUBSCRIBE ME PLEASE) [Don Rowe ] Re: Hello i'm new! [christopher blake ] Re: Black folk into Joni(sjc) [RobSher50@aol.com] Re: black folk into joni - long (sjc) ["J. R. Mills" ] Re: joni line [sjc]/ blackness ["hell" ] Re: joni line [sjc]/ blackness ["Brenda J. Walker" ] Re: black folk into joni - long (vljc) ["Brenda J. Walker" ] Re: Vorrei uscire [Catherine McKay ] Mimi Farina is gone ["J. R. Mills" ] Re: joni line [sjc]/ blackness [Catherine McKay ] Re: Mimi Farina is gone [Catherine McKay ] Re: black folk into joni - long (vljc) ["Kakki" ] Re: black folk into joni (sjc) ["Sybil Skelton" ] Re: joni line [sjc]/ blackness [RobSher50@aol.com] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 03:05:46 -0400 From: les@jmdl.com Subject: Today in Joni History: July 18 On July 18 in Joni Mitchell History: 1983: Joni performs at the Fingerlakes Performing Arts Center in Canadaigua, New York - ------------------------ Search the "Today" database: http://www.jmdl.com/today ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 08:29:05 +0100 From: LXROSS@ctrl.co.uk Subject: re: Hello i'm new! Hi Lazyasz Welcome indeed to the list. With expressions like these "and DJRD (is Paprika Plains not genius?)." you've most certainly a gathering of the like-minded and dissenting to call upon. I have to acknowledge a fundamental fondness that I can't explain about Mingus. Why, for a collection of songs I rarely listen to these days, are they the ones I sing when I'm drunk or in the shower. Whasatallabout?! Les (London - 5 days free of nicotine and sore of ass from cycling into work [1st day] - is this evidence of a mid-life crisis?) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 21:59:55 +1200 From: "hell" Subject: Re: Hello i'm new! Lazyasz wrote: > I have currently Joni's entire 70's output, plus SAL and Hits&Misses. Right > now i'm really into DJRD, Mingus, FTR, Hejira, C&S. Currently i'm obsessed > with > Mingus (so good its criminal) and DJRD (is Paprika Plains not genius?). I'm > really the only person I know my age who listens to Joni. Although one girl > in my dorm during the past year lent my her copy of LOTC. (And this was the > Fine Arts Dorm :r) > Well I have so much to share I hope to frequently contribute to this list. And we hope you do too! Welcome to the best discussion list on the web - I'm biased, but that doesn't make it untrue! Hell (aka Helen in NZ) ____________________________ "To have great poets, there must be great audiences too." - Walt Whitman hell@ihug.co.nz Hell's Personal Photo Page: http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~hell/main/personal.htm Visit the NBLs (Natural Born Losers) at: http://www.nbls.co.nz ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 22:08:27 +1200 From: "hell" Subject: Re: Mermaid Cafe & Carey Trivia John wrote: > "Carey" is one of my favourite Joni songs and I really enjoyed reading > it. After I did so, I stuck the name "Mermaid Cafi" into Google and > was surprised how many of these cafes there are around the world. > There are Mermaid Cafes in Dublin, Plymouth MA, the Bahamas, Las Vegas > and even 'down under' in Tasmania and on Waiheke Island, New Zealand. > Ever been there Hell? Its just a short ferry ride from you! No, I've never made that little overseas trip! I know it's only 40 minutes by ferry, but it's just one of those things I've never done. Ironically, I've just turned down a chance to go there in a couple of weeks (for a provincial rugby game, Auckland vs. North Harbour) but I've already had a better offer (sorry, my lips are sealed on those details)! The Mermaid Cafe is listed in the phone book, so if I'm ever over there I'll look them up, and ask the owners what gave them their inspiration - maybe it was our Joan! Or I might even give them a call tomorrow! Hell ____________________________ "To have great poets, there must be great audiences too." - Walt Whitman hell@ihug.co.nz Hell's Personal Photo Page: http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~hell/main/personal.htm Visit the NBLs (Natural Born Losers) at: http://www.nbls.co.nz ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 22:34:50 +1200 From: "hell" Subject: Re: joni on cobain Don wrote: > In any case, there's hardly a legacy to equal the > likes of Hendrix & Joplin ... though I'll grant you > that Morrison's self-indulgence makes a somewhat > better comparison. > > Just my take on it ... and one for which I'll beg > forgiveness if I've seemed a bit harsh. I really > would like to hear what others think about it. I pretty much agree with you, that much of Nirvana's success or notoriety (I can't find the right word here) was due to Cobain's death, and the circumstances surrounding it. I personally (and don't jump down my throat, this is just my opinion) don't see much of value in their music, and definitely would never compare them to Joplin, Morrison or Hendrix. But I do concede that perhaps Janis', Jim's and Jimi's "fame" was assisted in some respects, in that they died in their prime, and again the circumstances, ie. drugs, alcohol, etc. made them more newsworthy that if they'd lived to a ripe old age and died quietly in their sleep. The idea that they were matyrs to the hippie ideal may also be romantic to some - personally I think dying by choking on your own vomit is not romantic at all! It's really impossible to say. Elvis was popular in his youth, and his popularity did seem to decline as he got older (as far as I can tell - I'm not really a fan of his either). But his premature death brought out a whole new generation of fans, and I doubt he'd be as well-known around the world now, if he was still singing in some cheesy Vegas night-club! Hell ____________________________ "To have great poets, there must be great audiences too." - Walt Whitman hell@ihug.co.nz Hell's Personal Photo Page: http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~hell/main/personal.htm Visit the NBLs (Natural Born Losers) at: http://www.nbls.co.nz ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 06:34:16 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: Hello i'm new! - --- Lazyasz@aol.com wrote: > My name is Damien and I am a 19 year old > currently enrolled at UCI > pursuing a degree in philosophy. Welcome to the party, Damien. Any friend of Joni's is a friend of mine! Get your free @yahoo.ca address at http://mail.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 06:36:11 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: re: Hello i'm new! - --- LXROSS@ctrl.co.uk wrote: . > > I have to acknowledge a fundamental fondness that I > can't explain about > Mingus. Why, for a collection of songs I rarely > listen to these days, are > they the ones I sing when I'm drunk Because you can't sing 'em when you're sober! Get your free @yahoo.ca address at http://mail.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 08:10:58 EDT From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: Hello i'm new! << Well I have so much to share I hope to frequently contribute to this list. >> Welcome, Damien! Congrats on the discovery and venturing into the work of the best songwriter of the latter half of the 20th century. I hope you contribute frequently too! :~) Bob ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 14:33:00 +0100 From: Gordon Mackie Subject: Suicidio Wally/Les/Joni(not)/anyone who is vaguely interested.....suicidio... >>No not the Ponchielli aria...(though one of my favourites when >>Callas sings it...as a great example of the range of her >>voice)..but the academic study. Emile Durkheim was a turn of the >>century (ie 19th to 20th) French sociologist who researched and >>wrote extensively on the topic of suicide. I think the original >>will be around in academic libraries but most introductory >>sociology readers (of which there are tons) include this work. >>Alternatively, do a web search for Durkheim+Suicide and it will >>give you a number of options...or also Durkheim+Anomie or Anomic >>Suicide. In academic study, the concept is often allied to Marx's >>concept of alienation and Max Weber on social action. > >If you want any more info, let me know > >Gordon ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 10:19:01 EDT From: SMEBD@aol.com Subject: Last Waltz (vljc) From Rolling Stone: ROBERTSON GIVES "THE LAST WALTZ" NEW LIFE ROBBIE ROBERTSON and director MARTIN SCORSESE have added previously unseen footage and some new interview clips with Robertson to the DVD release of the BAND's "The Last Waltz," due next year. "What's really interesting is to look back and see what a historic event and extraordinary musical collaboration it was," Robertson told Rolling Stone of the performance, which included guest appearances by BOB DYLAN, ERIC CLAPTON, VAN MORRISON, NEIL YOUNG and others. Robertson is also working on assembling a new Band box set, also due next year, which will feature numerous unreleased recordings. "I'll be glad to see it done," he said, "the way I always felt it should be done." "AND OTHERS"--that would be JONI I guess!! Stephen in NYC (NP: Judy Collins--I Think It's Going To Rain Today" ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 10:26:00 -0400 From: "Victor Johnson" Subject: Topsfield or Bust!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Hello everybody, As I've been informed by some people that my presence is required at Jonifest, I'm making a last ditch effort to raise some money so that I will be able to attend. A valient effort is indeed being made and it almost seems like it just might work. In order to help make this happen, I am selling signed copies of my cd, "Tangled" for $15.00. I will also include a special cd single of the song "California", an ode to Joni Mitchell I wrote after attending jonifest last year which I would love to perform in Topsfield this year, and give it a proper christianing. I will post the lyrics below. But in order to accomplish this I will need to do it very soon, so if you would like to help, and get the cd and single, ASAP send a check or money order for $15.00(overseas $16.50) to Victor Johnson P.O. Box 5673 Atlanta, Georgia 31107 The bottom line is I would really, really like to be there, so I'm gonna try really hard. Also, I didn't want Wally, Bob, and Paz to have to work the street corners, and taint their pure spirits. Victor California (c)2000 by Victor Johnson California, valley of sunshine, Carry me to your golden shore. Wind around the starlit highway, Up above the mountain cliffs. Sweet lady of the canyon, Won't you take me for a ride. Fill me with your perfect vision, Lead me to this holy land. California coming closer, Starry skies and sleepless nights. Early morning passion thunder, And the love keeps pouring out. Walk me through your redwood pastures, Beneath the trees so high and wide. Lay me down in fertile valleys, Morning Glory on the vine. California, take me home, Brighten my southern sky. Sing me an unbroken lullaby, I'll spread my wings, teach me to fly. California, lonely skybird, Fly over ocean of white clouds. Gaze down on a deep, blue heaven, Shining in the sunlit sky. Dream of wooden ships and mermaids, Dolphins jumping in the sea. With no particular destination, California's just around the bend. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 09:34:08 -0500 From: "Michael Paz" Subject: Hello I'm New Hi Damien- Welcome to the list!. It is VERY refreshing to have young people on this list and attracted to the music of Joni Mitchell. You will find a very diverse group of folks here and people of all ages. We have our very own Rev, lots of musicians, poets, philosophers, sociologists, republicans, cross dressers, (lol) you name it. Be sure to check out the upcoming JoniFest in Topsfield, Massachusetts. Once you attend a JoniFest, you will be hooked for life. This will be my fourth year. Check out WTRF as it is been a hot topic lately. Personally I love this record and I have a lot of nice memories from the era (which is usually the case with most Joni releases for me). Enjoy the list! Michael (in New Orleans) NP-I Don't Want To Wait-Paula Cole Lazyasz@aol.com wrote: > Subject: Hello i'm new! > > Hey guys, > > My name is Damien and I am a 19 year old currently enrolled at UCI > pursuing a degree in philosophy. I became interested in Joni Mitchell > through the VH1 program 100 Greatest Women in Rock, the special on TNT, and > my mom's own remembrance of her obsession with C&S back in the day! > > I have currently Joni's entire 70's output, plus SAL and Hits&Misses. Right > now i'm really into DJRD, Mingus, FTR, Hejira, C&S. Currently i'm obsessed > with > Mingus (so good its criminal) and DJRD (is Paprika Plains not genius?). I'm > really the only person I know my age who listens to Joni. Although one girl > in my dorm during the past year lent my her copy of LOTC. (And this was the > Fine Arts Dorm :r) > > I must say that she is so original and I can hear so much influence of her > work in that of today's artists. Paula Cole, Tori, Bjork, Sarah and so much > more. Her guitar work is so innovative. I personally think Mingus is the > greatest example of this-never > heard an acoustic guitar played like that before. > > Well I have so much to share I hope to frequently contribute to this list. > Until next time bye. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 12:00:36 EDT From: HeJlRa@aol.com Subject: Re: JMDL UNSUSCRIBE ME PLEASE!!! This list is too boring for my tastes! ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 17:01:17 +0100 From: mark.robertson@bt.com Subject: Shadows and Light availability Can anyone tell me if a VHS ( PAL ) copy or region 2 DVD exists of SAL ? and why is the CDNOW region 1 DVD so expensive ...$49 + Thanks in advance Mark ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 11:01:06 -0400 From: "Bill Dollinger" Subject: false alarm? An update by the Amelia Earhart Project was in the news last night. I checked their website and found some interesting satellite photos. Personally, I'd rather the story of Amelia remain an open-ended mystery. Looks like they think they are onto something, but maybe it's just another false alarm... bill from the website: Recent analysis of the satellite imagery and historical photos of Nikumaroro has raised the possibility that the aircraft wreckage on the reef supposedly seen by Emily Sikuli (see The Carpenter's Daughter) may still be right where she saw it. In 1999 Emily told us of seeing debris on the reef at Nikumaroro in 1940 or '41 which her father, the island carpenter, told her was the wreckage of an airplane. Her story was particularly interesting to us because the general location she described, the reef-flat off the western end of the atoll, was where a variety of other anecdotes and evidence had already led us to suspect that the Earhart airplane had been landed and subsequently destroyed by the surf. http://www.tighar.org/Projects/Earhart/Bulletins/07_12_01%20Bulletin/Nik usatphoto.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 10:39:38 -0700 (PDT) From: Don Rowe Subject: Lively Up The List (was UNSUBSCRIBE ME PLEASE) - --- HeJlRa@aol.com wrote: > This list is too boring for my tastes! To lively up the list, and make it more to your tastes, please select the phrase of your choice below and post it to the list (as directed, where indicated): 1. The Hinton biography should be considered The Holy Bible when talking about Joni's life and career. 2. Everything Jackson Browne alleged about "Not To Blame" was true. 3. The best thing Joni has ever done, or continues to do, is smoke constantly. 4. George W. Bush won the Presidential election fair and square. (do NOT label this post NJC) 5. Joni Mitchell would not be considered the icon that she is today were it not for the production contributions of Thomas Dolby & Larry Klein. 6. Joni's okay, but Banarama ... now THERE was a band! 7. Homosexuality is a manifestation of Original Sin which an be overcome through prayer. 8. There is/is not a penis on the cover of Hejira (make your selection based on what you see or don't) 9. "For The Roses" is a mere collection of pop throwaway ditties compared to "Hejira". 10. "Hejira" is a boring bunch of navel-gazing anthems compared to "For The Roses." 11. Joni's a great poet, but she's not half the singer Yoko Ono is. 12. The only song Joni Mitchell ever wrote that said anything even remotely relevant is "Dancin' Clown." It is our sincere hope that these primers will steer the overall tenor of the list traffic in a direction more to your liking. Don Rowe ===== Visit me anytime at http://www.mp3.com/donrowe Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 12:47:12 -0700 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: Lively Up The List (was UNSUBSCRIBE ME PLEASE) Brilliant Don! I tried to come up with others but I do believe you have it covered, heehee ;-) Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 23:17:18 +0200 From: "paolo" Subject: Vorrei uscire Come posso fare per non ricevere piy e-mail da JMDL Digest? Qualcuno mi sa rispondere. Con affetto Paolo. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 14:27:51 -0700 (PDT) From: christopher blake Subject: Re: Hello i'm new! - --- Lazyasz@aol.com wrote: > Hey guys, > > My name is Damien and I am a 19 year old > currently enrolled at UCI > pursuing a degree in philosophy. I became > interested in Joni Mitchell > through the VH1 program 100 Greatest Women in Rock, > the special on TNT, and > my mom's own remembrance of her obsession with C&S > back in the day! > > I have currently Joni's entire 70's output, plus SAL > and Hits&Misses. Right > now i'm really into DJRD, Mingus, FTR, Hejira, C&S. > Currently i'm obsessed > with > Mingus (so good its criminal) and DJRD (is Paprika > Plains not genius?). I'm > really the only person I know my age who listens to > Joni. Although one girl > in my dorm during the past year lent my her copy of > LOTC. (And this was the > Fine Arts Dorm :r) > > I must say that she is so original and I can hear so > much influence of her > work in that of today's artists. Paula Cole, Tori, > Bjork, Sarah and so much > more. Her guitar work is so innovative. I > personally think Mingus is the > greatest example of this-never > heard an acoustic guitar played like that before. > > Well I have so much to share I hope to frequently > contribute to this list. > Until next time bye. hi damien! "hello, i'm new"? isn't that a todd rundgren tune? welcome to the list! i wonder if the lilst from guitar player magazine is still posted on their site? her guitar work IS amazing! i believe she was ranked #46 or so. i could be wrong, and if so i know that nobody will hesitate to correct me :) have an awesome day - chris(topher) Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 18:06:50 EDT From: RobSher50@aol.com Subject: Re: Black folk into Joni(sjc) Hi Shane, I'm another of the "black folk into Joni." I appreciate your admiration for this bond. I was introduced to Joni back in 1975 as a freshman in college. I appreciated her because she had "soul." My friend, Jamie Peck (who is white) and I define soul as that thing which gives an artist their individuality. It is that thing which comes from the heart and exudes out of that artist's every pore. When a black vocalist would sing gospel or the blues many years ago, you could hear the emotion come from deep within and flow from their voices. It was a way of expressing one's feelings in the only manner allowed. Mahalia Jackson is one of my favorite examples. Just listening to her heartfelt vocals can bring me to tears. This is why I like Joni so much. She can pen and sing a song with so much heartfelt honesty and openness. She has "soul." Had I not moved out of my familiar environment in Virginia, I'm not sure if I would have had the opportunity to discover her music. The reverse is also true. If the Beatles, the Rolling Stones, Elvis Presley, Led Zepplin, Eric Clapton, and many other rock groups had not stepped out of their familiar environment to discover Rhythm and Blues, their sound would be completely different from what we have heard. The key here is that each of these artists dared to venture from their familiar surroundings. On the same level, Tina Turner dared to step out of her traditional R&B environment to sing what was considered hard rock. She took some flack for that from some of the black community, but she followed her heart and also helped to create another style of music. The most important thing is that though my friend and I are of different races, we are in consensus about what "soul" is. There is the traditional definition which would preclude the term to a particular race, and then there is the other definitions which precludes the term to the heartfelt emotion which rises from the artist's music. There is a female jazz artist (who shall remain nameless) that neither Jamie and I care for because though she sings and plays jazz well, it feels to us as if she is just mimicking the style. There is no emotion to her performance. We both look at each other and say, "She ain't got no soul!" (We also feel the same about Kenny G; I will name him) I am sure there are other people who will say that these two artists touch them deeply, so it will have to remain strictly a matter of personal opinion. Anyhoo, it is very important for people to step outside of their normal boundaries to discover what else is out their musically in the world. To me, it is the essence of creativity, and it is what Joni is best at. She has such a willingness to explore other musical styles and I applaud her for it. By doing so, she creates a new genre. She dares to live, dares to take chances. I would love to hear more about the Canadian-African American connection. I know about the underground railroad connection, but Shane, can you expound on how Canada and African Americans have joined together since then? I am very curious and obviously not very knowledgeable of the history between the two. Thanks for allowing me to share. Sherelle ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 15:15:26 -0700 From: "J. R. Mills" Subject: Re: black folk into joni - long (sjc) Hello shane: I don't mind sharing some of my thoughts on Joni's appeal to me as a Black person, but I don't presume to speak to anyone else's experience, as I'm mindful of the fact that there is no *one* African-American consciousness, and in this context, generalization is tantamount to dehumanization, in a way. There's this phenomenon here in the U.S. known sociologically as the "norm/other paradigm," I think. The perception that the majority culture is the standard by which all other ethnicities should be compared. In this perception, blackness is somehow exotic and unfathomable. This is a fallacy Joni transcends in my opinion. I love that she was unafraid to write "you stood out like a ruby in a black man's ear," for instance. It simply doesn't enter her mind that people could be perceived as different based purely on the color of their skin. This outlook is palpable in her music. My view is that Joni's relationship with American Blackness is a two-way street. I don't know if it has anything to do with the Canadian/African-American legacy you speak of...perhaps. I'm reminded that Neil Young was a musical partner to funkster Rick James early in his career. But with regard to the Underground Railroad running through Canada, well, any port in a storm, if you'll pardon the mixed metaphor. Also, I can't help but think of the present Canadian's Prime Minister's recent comments about being afraid of being boiled in a pot by natives on his upcoming trip to Africa. It may be that any perceived bond between Canadians and African Americans is anecdotal. But, it's a matter of fact that Joni appeals to a wide cross section of African-American musicians from many genres. Her music has been covered by Janet Jackson, Cassandra Wilson, Joshua Redman, Prince, and many others. Jimi Hendrix adored her. To me as a Black listener, Joni has an intangible quality known in the Black Community as "soul". It's a subtle but unmistakable attribute, and more often than not it's a musical gift borne of pain. She's interprets her unique version of the blues justifiably. Black people identify closely with that I think. It's the essence of gospel music, too. you write: > someone with her talent cannot fail to > recognize that the distinctively north american music, especially jazz but > also rock and blues owes its origins and inspiration to the legacy of the > american black... You make a good point here, Shane. Joni is unambiguous in her admiration of myriad Black musics and musicians. To wit: Miles Davis, Mingus, Marvin Gaye, Billie Holiday, James Brown, Brian Blade, the Persuasions...just to name a few. She loved to dance to Chuck Berry and Ray Charles in her youth and she "feels" African percussion. She considers Wayne Shorter and Herbie Hancock "geniuses." To her credit, she doesn't hesitate to voice her opinion of Black artists she's not "down" with...John Coltrane, "hoods from the hood," etc. Joni has said that she felt she was Black at points in her life, and we all know about her assuming a Black personae for DJRD. Many of her closest friends are African American or of African descent...Val, Chaka Khan, Seal... I could go on and on, but I'll just stop here. This topic is so complex it gives me a headache to thing of all the interlockings and ramifications of the issues. Suffice it to say that I've always been enamored of Joni's innocence and purity of soul. Joni Mitchell never lies. Word. - -Julius - ----- Original Message ----- From: "shane mattison" To: ; Sent: Tuesday, July 17, 2001 10:58 AM Subject: black folk into joni (sjc) > julius wrote: > > < Black folk have been into Joni for so long. I can't think of many other white > artists who have that kind of cross-over appeal, with the possible exception > of maybe Janis and Laura Nyro...>> > > julius, i just want you to know that this gives me joy thinking about it and i > would love to hear any more about this topic that you may or may not feel like > sharing... > > there has always been decipherable some kind of canadian - american black > bond, from the time of the underground railroad until now... > > funny how things filter through...i remember having beers, probably underage, > in a downtown philly bar...it was, a black guy told me sitting near, not a bar > for whites...i told him i was canadian and didn't know that...and then he > warmed to me and welcomed me to the establishment because i was canadian and > canadian was cool... so there i was an underage blond 17 year old soakin' up > the schlitz's with some pretty 'jazzy cats'...needless to say i ended up > playing piano at a pretty boudoir-looking nitespot called "mae's place" that > same evening...every weekend i was welcome to add my stride piano to the > general atmosphere, the shadier sides of which i was, like a prairie boy off > the farm, totally oblivious... > > its partly perhaps the lack of a jaded filter also in joni mitchell, a > transplant on the american scene...and someone with her talent cannot fail to > recognize that the distinctively north american music, especially jazz but > also rock and blues owes its origins and inspiration to the legacy of the > american black... > > charles mingus was a legend in his own time...that he would dedicate his last > songs to joni's care was a fabulous display of guts and intuition... > > but you and other black members of this list can tell me much more, than to > have this greenhorn > ramble on... > > ciao, > shane ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 23:40:12 +0100 (GMT Daylight Time) From: "colin" Subject: Re: Lively Up The List (was UNSUBSCRIBE ME PLEASE) ooh yes please! any of those will liven it up a bit! bw colin ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 19:46:29 -0300 From: "Wally Kairuz" Subject: joni line [sjc]/ blackness julius wrote: I love that she was unafraid to write "you stood out like a ruby in a black man's ear," for instance. and i ask: isn't that a shakespeare line? as to blackness and PC, do blacks take offence when referred to as blacks? how about ''african american''? do blacks/african americans feel that ''african american'' is a euphuism, thus insulting? what if the black person is canadian or jamaican? is [s]he still an african american? we once talked about ''native americans'' but i can't remember the conclusions. wallyK ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2001 10:58:15 +1200 From: "hell" Subject: Re: joni line [sjc]/ blackness wallyk wrote: > as to blackness and PC, do blacks take offence when referred to as blacks? > how about ''african american''? do blacks/african americans feel that > ''african american'' is a euphuism, thus insulting? what if the black person > is canadian or jamaican? is [s]he still an african american? we once talked > about ''native americans'' but i can't remember the conclusions. This is something I've always wondered about too. What is the PC term at the moment? We've had this discussion in the past, about how terms used 50 years ago would now be considered offensive, but what is the current expression? I've had little experience in these matters. We have a large number of different races/cultures in NZ, but they don't have the same history of slavery and oppression that you have in the US (although I'm sure some would disagree with me there) and there is no all-encompassing generic term. A Maori is Maori, a Samoan is from Samoa, etc. Hell ____________________________ "To have great poets, there must be great audiences too." - Walt Whitman hell@ihug.co.nz Hell's Personal Photo Page: http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~hell/main/personal.htm Visit the NBLs (Natural Born Losers) at: http://www.nbls.co.nz ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 16:11:06 -0700 From: "Brenda J. Walker" Subject: Re: joni line [sjc]/ blackness Wally Kairuz wrote: > as to blackness and PC, do blacks take offence when referred to as blacks? > how about ''african american''? do blacks/african americans feel that > ''african american'' is a euphuism, thus insulting? what if the black person > is canadian or jamaican? is [s]he still an african american? we once talked > about ''native americans'' but i can't remember the conclusions. > wallyK There are about as many views on this as there are shades of brown. Some people are still "black and proud" and some prefer African-American. I suppose African-American is supposed represent those of the diaspora, but I've met some West Indians who would give you hell for "lumping" them in with U.S. black folk. Personally, I prefer to be called American. I find the notion that everyone other than "white" must be categorized to be just one of the roots of the continuing American race problem. I hate that the media generally deals with issues in terms of black and white, as if Latinos, Asians, etc. don't even exist. Brenda N.P.: k.d. lang - "What Better Said" ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 16:19:52 -0700 From: "Brenda J. Walker" Subject: Re: joni line [sjc]/ blackness hell wrote: > What is the PC term at the moment? African-American ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 16:11:38 -0700 From: "J. R. Mills" Subject: Re: joni line [sjc]/ blackness > I love that she was unafraid to write "you > stood out like a ruby in a black man's ear," for instance. > > and i (Wally) ask: > > isn't that a shakespeare line? Yes, Wally, it is. Joni wasn't afraid to appropriate it, I should say. > as to blackness and PC, do blacks take offence when referred to as blacks? > how about ''african american''? do blacks/african americans feel that > ''african american'' is a euphuism, thus insulting? what if the black person > is canadian or jamaican? is [s]he still an african american? we once talked > about ''native americans'' but i can't remember the conclusions. > wallyK *I* take no offense to being referred to as "Black," Wally, but Paz might. ;-) However, I generally capitalize the term. I have issues with "colored" and "negro" though...but that's just me. I not sure what you're asking with regard to the term "African-American." A euphemism for what? If a Black person is Canadian they would probably be an African-Canadian. I believe most Jamaicans are Black. One would probably refer to European-Jamaicans for differentiation, when necessary. I just read Sherelle's post on this thread and am amazed at the synchronicity of our views on Joni having soul. Thanks for your thoughts, Sherelle. Very well stated. - -Julius ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 16:37:48 -0700 From: "Brenda J. Walker" Subject: Re: black folk into joni - long (vljc) "J. R. Mills" wrote: > This topic is so complex it > gives me a headache to thing of all the interlockings and ramifications of > the issues. Suffice it to say that I've always been enamored of Joni's > innocence and purity of soul. The complexity of this issue has had me considering nonstop what to write in my post for the last day. First, I agree with Sherelle and Julius that Joni has soul. I think k.d. lang is another Canadian woman who has it as well. They both also share a common bond of not being afraid to turn genre on its ear. (Now to the tough stuff and touchy territory...and let me just say for the record that all comments are welcome.) Second, I think it is Joni's innocence and willingness to explore that allows her to approach "black" music with a different ear and mind, so to speak. (Here is my view, based on my study (formal and informal) of music and African-American history.) Historically in the U.S. traditional "black" music has been demeaned and devalued by the majority culture and certainly by the majority media. Jazz wasn't art until the Europeans said so. It has historically taken time (and in many cases performance of the same songs by whites) in order for black music to garner cultural respect. If you look at the artists that Sherelle refers to in her post regarding the influence of R&B, there is only one American there. The Brits were willing and excited to cop to their influences and were thrilled when they got to meet or play with them. At least that is how it appears to me from everything I have read. Today things are different and I wonder how much is owed to the Stones and the Beatles for that. Third, from a personal point of view and speaking strictly from my own experience with my European and Canadian friends and acquaintances, I've always found it easier to have a discussion about race with non-American whites. Not easy in the sense of simply agreeing with one another but that it feels more like a dialogue. I've vacationed in Canada (Salt Spring/Vancouver) every year for the last five years, not just because I love it but also because it feels like a vacation away from race as the issue it is in everyday life. I think the U.S., as a nation, bears a heavy burden of blame, guilt and shame on both sides of the color line and it keeps us from having respectful discussions, open debate and thus healing ourselves. I think being free of the burden and the collective racial consciousness allows people of other cultures the opportunity to view all American music differently from the way Americans do. We also have the cloud of the media portrayal of race hanging over our heads which makes mutual understanding exceedingly difficult. There is a great book titled "Black Image in the White Mind" by Robert Entman which I highly recommend to Americans of all colors. I could go on, boring you all, for hours about this . . . Thanks Shane, for starting this. I welcome the dialogue. Brenda n.p.: Radiohead - "Hunting Bears" ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 20:21:00 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: Lively Up The List (was UNSUBSCRIBE ME PLEASE) - --- Don Rowe wrote: > --- HeJlRa@aol.com wrote: > > This list is too boring for my tastes! > > To lively up the list, and make it more to your > tastes, please select the phrase of your choice > below > and post it to the list (as directed, where > indicated): > > 1. The Hinton biography should be considered The > Holy > Bible when talking about Joni's life and career. > > 2. Everything Jackson Browne alleged about "Not To > Blame" was true. > Don, you are just TOO funny for words! Get your free @yahoo.ca address at http://mail.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 17:17:03 -0700 From: "J. R. Mills" Subject: Mimi Farina is gone I just heard on the news that Mimi Farina has died after a long battle with cancer. Mimi, Joan Baez's sister, is well-known and admired greatly here in Northern California for founding Bread and Roses, which brings music performances to the elderly and incarcerated. Joni has performed in benefit concerts for the cause in the past, many here on the list are well-aware. Rest in Peace, Mimi. You will be missed. - -Julius np: "Amazing Grace" - Joan Baez ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 20:27:35 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: Vorrei uscire - --- paolo wrote: > Come posso fare per non ricevere piy e-mail da JMDL > Digest? Qualcuno mi sa > rispondere. > Con affetto Paolo. Paolo wants to leave the list - I can understand the Italian, but not how to respond in the same language. Paolo, just send an e-mail to joni@smoe.org and include the word "unsubscribe" in the message. (I think that's how it works - someone else, help me out - - I've lost my message that tells you how to do this! Good thing I don't want to leave. I hope by typing the word unsub***e in my e-mail, it doesn't unsub***e me. Now I'm worried - I know how to get there, but not how to get back! Get your free @yahoo.ca address at http://mail.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 17:20:29 -0700 From: "J. R. Mills" Subject: Mimi Farina is gone I just heard on the news that Mimi Farina has died after a long battle with cancer. Mimi, Joan Baez's sister and a musician in her own right, is well-known and admired greatly here in Northern California for founding "Bread and Roses", an organization which provides live music performances to the elderly and incarcerated. Joni has performed in benefit concerts for the cause in the past, as many here on the list are well aware. Rest in Peace, Mimi. You will be dearly missed. - -Julius np: "Amazing Grace" - Joan Baez ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 20:37:41 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: joni line [sjc]/ blackness - --- "J. R. Mills" wrote: > I just read Sherelle's post on this thread and am > amazed at the > synchronicity of our views on Joni having soul. > Thanks for your thoughts, > Sherelle. Very well stated. > > -Julius LOL, Julius - I didn't realize that you and JR Mills were one and the same! I thought JR was some new person! Get your free @yahoo.ca address at http://mail.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 20:44:07 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: Mimi Farina is gone - --- "J. R. Mills" wrote: > I just heard on the news that Mimi Farina has died > after a long battle with cancer. I'm sad to hear that. What a beautiful woman. Such a shame. Get your free @yahoo.ca address at http://mail.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 19:16:20 -0700 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: black folk into joni - long (vljc) Wow, Sherelle, Julius and Brenda, Your posts are some of the most beautiful and insightful writing I have ever read. Thank you - you filled my soul today. Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 22:12:11 -0500 From: "Sybil Skelton" Subject: Re: black folk into joni (sjc) What serendipitous timing for this discussion to start. Recently, I had a conversation about music with a female coworker of mine who is bi-racial. She has been raised with a whole variety of perspectives that I as a white female Southern baby boomer didn't experience. We were talking about music, and her preferences always surprise me. What really surprised me though was when she mentioned that she and her husband, who is black, attended a Joni Mitchell concert not too long ago - I assumed it was the BSN tour. She said her husband was a huge fan, and he had been somewhat disappointed in the show because Joni didn't do her "old" stuff. I think I successfully disguised my surprise that a young black man would be a Joni fan, and I didn't want to reveal my "cracker" ignorance by asking too many questions, but nevertheless I was fascinated. So thanks for starting this discussion thread and educating me. "Racial" topics can cause very touchy discussions, it seems especially so here in the south, and I'm always afraid I will offend someone out of ignorance. The discussions on this list are always so open and free. Sybil NP:"Cowgirl in the Sand" I found the Decade CDs in the changer left there by my 17 year old son. Listening to Neil Young at 17, I'm not sure this is an entirely good thing. _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 23:30:48 -0400 From: Brian Gross Subject: Re: black folk into joni (sjc) Sybil Skelton wrote: > NP:"Cowgirl in the Sand" I found the Decade CDs in the changer left there > by my 17 year old son. Listening to Neil Young at 17, I'm not sure this is > an entirely good thing. Yeah Look how some of us (read ME) turned out ;-) take care, Brei (who, at Jimmy's suggestion, is learning how to siphon) - -- After twenty-three years you'd think I could find A way to let you know somehow That I want to see your smiling face Forty-five years from now. --Stan Rogers ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2001 01:03:42 EDT From: RobSher50@aol.com Subject: Re: joni line [sjc]/ blackness In a message dated 07/18/2001 5:08:32 PM Pacific Daylight Time, les@jmdl.com writes: > joni line [sjc]/ blackness > > Hi Wally, Being referred to as black(s) doesn't offend me personally unless you put the word "the" in front of it. I'm not sure why that bothers me, but it does. It just has a derogatory tone to it in my opinion. I can't speak for Jamaicans being referred to as an African American. It could be an affront to his native land, but again, I cannot say. I would actually like to be referred to as "human." I would like to see the day that a person sees my character before he/she sees the color of my skin. That doesn't mean I am not proud of my ethnicity, it just means that I would prefer to be acknowledged as a member of the human race. This is just my own personal opinion. Sherelle ------------------------------ End of onlyJMDL Digest V2001 #221 ********************************* ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she?