From: les@jmdl.com (onlyJMDL Digest) To: onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Subject: onlyJMDL Digest V2001 #196 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/onlyjoni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com Unsubscribe: mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe onlyJMDL Digest Monday, June 25 2001 Volume 2001 : Number 196 The Official Joni Mitchell Homepage, created by Wally Breese, can be found at http://www.jonimitchell.com. It contains the latest news, a detailed bio, Original Interviews, essays, lyrics and much much more. The JMDL website can be found at http://www.jmdl.com and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. Information on the 4th "Annual" New England JoniFest: http://www.jmdl.com/jfne2001.cfm ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Today's Articles: June 24 [les@jmdl.com] Re: JMDL Digest V2001 #268 - BSN Comment [BRYAN8847@aol.com] Re: JMDL Digest V2001 #267 - A Case of Joni & Bob [BRYAN8847@aol.com] Consumers and Creators. [Richard Rice ] Gosh darn it. [Richard Rice ] Laura Nyro? [UGAstudent22@aol.com] Re: DJRD - why cut Jericho ? [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: DJRD - why cut Jericho ? [AsharaJM@aol.com] Re: Gosh darn it. [mags ] Re: Foni Mitchell / Vikki Clayton - STOP PRESS!!! [AzeemAK@aol.com] why Joni does [Kate ] guitars slightly out of tune sjc ["Kate Bennett" ] Subject: Re: Thoughts on BSN & beyond... ["Kate Bennett" ] Re: Consumers and Creators. [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] gallery cc: ["P. Henry Boland" ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2001 04:08:17 -0400 From: les@jmdl.com Subject: Today's Articles: June 24 On June 24 this article about Joni was published: 1998: "Back to the Garden" - Addicted To Noise website (News Item) http://www.jmdl.com/articles/docs/980624atn.cfm - ------------------------ The JMDL Article Database has 605 titles. http://www.jmdl.com/articles Contributions always welcome! ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2001 04:42:52 EDT From: BRYAN8847@aol.com Subject: Re: JMDL Digest V2001 #268 - BSN Comment Someone said Joni was not responsible for the orchestration on BSN and therefore doesn't get credit for it. But let's talk about inspiration and who gets credit for that. If Mendoza and Klein had been conducting, arranging and producing for Britney or Whitney, would they have been inspired to co-create the stunning work that BSN is? I don't think so. We all have our favorites and BSN is one of mine. I too might have preferred these songs without the full orchestra and I realize our heroine's voice is smoke-damaged. But even with these complaints, this is a stupendous collection of songs, with beautiful and memorable interpretations. For me, it's a desert island disc. Bryan ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2001 04:45:51 EDT From: BRYAN8847@aol.com Subject: Re: JMDL Digest V2001 #267 - A Case of Joni & Bob Steely Dan doing Carey? Hmmmm. I'm still hoping Dylan will join in (you know he wants to), doing Sire of Sorrow or Sex Kills. Bryan ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2001 03:34:13 -0500 From: Richard Rice Subject: Consumers and Creators. "there's something lost, and something gained in living every day." Age, smoking, poor health and much more smoking have taken a toll on her voice. The clear highs are lost. She's prone to loosing her voice more now. And yet, She's gained much in her ability to interpret a song with heart and feeling. Her pitch has greatly improved over the years. Anyone fortunate enough to actually hear her in person can't help but admire the quality of her singing voice. It's not the greatest in the universe. But she never claimed to be that. And the legion of singers who 'sing' better can't hold a candle to the breath of creativity she has exhibited, then or now. And to all those so focused, including reviewers, on what she's lost, I pray you're not doing the same with your receeding hair lines, widening waist lines, or accumulating crows feet. My god, people grow old. No one is what they were in their youth. Get over it. Move through your life with grace and accept the things you cannot change. Not that growing old means surrendering. -And Joni's hardly done that. In fact, she has remained as true to her muse today as any time in her life. To her credit, her music and art have always been honest, frank and vigorous examinations of her life and her desire to know. She is not making products for consumers. She is making artifacts, -an honest examination, questioning, answering, and hopefully beautiful form- to share with the world as a gift. In this regard, the old girl hasn't lost a step. I'd give my left '...' to say I'd created the cover of TI, written Love Puts on a New Face, Man from Mars or Passion Play. You can measure her success from the point of view of a consumer... who creates nothing, can second guess everything with perfect hindsight, or lay any set of standards to what is created. That's fair game. As a consumer, we are not so conscerned with how the artist or creator felt when they made an artifact. All we really care about is how 'we' feel, or better, how they made us feel. That's fair game too. But how we feel often demands a connection, a universality so to speak. We all share in Joni's tribulations sung in Blue. Fewer of us connect to the urge to throw a drink in the face of a record executive. Perhaps fewer and fewer of her new pieces speak to the life experiences of a mass audience. I do believe that to be true. But it's not a fault of Joni or a sign of diminishing talent, or quality of her work: She was once a child, became a un-ruly teenager, lived her young adult hood growing wise from hard knocks and making precocious art, found success, artists and forms that thrilled her, followed her muse, became middle age and is growing into an elderly grandmother. -Now do you really expect the artifacts of her life experiencing, questioning are meant to be mass audience wide during the whole of this journey? If you've done any creating in your life, other than consuming... When she made Blue, Joni lived that album and released it's demons by making artifacts of the experience. It was not something to mine, like gold, stamping out one pressing like it after another. Her life isn't Ground Hog Day. It took me a while to appreciate it, but I've always loved the winding journey and the puzzling turns her music has taken. She has never taken a turn that wasn't a surprise. Ok, from a musical standpoint, BSN was not cutting edge. But it was a twist of fate, change coming at Joni like a car accident, for her to find herself up on a stage, performing songs that allowed more freedom interpreting than her own songs did, with the rush of such a full sound behind her. It thrilled her. It was a moment in her life that meant enough to her to do something about it. As a consumer, if we aren't equally as moved, if she didn't make us feel it... well, do what consumers do: consume something else. I recall watching A Day in the Garden with Rich, and he paused a moment to listen (!!!) to Joni sing Summertime. At the end she loses her voice and hits a false note, then bravely tries to recover. She is beaming anyway, because she knows she was rocking on this song for 99.9% of it. And Rich looks at me, like... "What the '....' was that???? I said nothing. Pretended I didn't hear a word and he left the room as she moved on to 'her' material. And I thought to myself, "I don't listen to Joni Mitchell because she's perfect. I listen to Joni because she's Joni Mitchell." The scope of her life graces mine. Every step and mis-step. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2001 03:47:54 -0500 From: Richard Rice Subject: Gosh darn it. Gosh darn it, I got that wrong: I don't listen to Joni Mitchell because she's perfect. I listen to Joni Mitchell because she's Joni Mitchell. There. I wanted to make sure I got that just so. Of course, if Joni were inclined, I'm sure there's one thread of her life experience that would probably make for grand 'universal' appeal in the great Joni Mitchell tradition: if she were to examine her relationship with her daughter, grandson and son-in law. Such a moving, emotion filled subject in the hands of so gifted an artist would make for an experience that would rock the jmdl world to it's core. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2001 07:18:48 EDT From: UGAstudent22@aol.com Subject: Laura Nyro? Hey Guys! I'm new (sort of) to the list. I used to sign up, but left and have returned. I'm a 22 year old student at the University of Georgia. Was wondering if anyone has access to the Laura Nyro albums Mother's Spiritual, Nested, and Season of Lights. A couple of years ago, I worked on a music history project dealing with Joni's albums; now, i'm repeating the project for graduation using the music of Ms Nyro, and those three albums are basically impossible to find. If anyone can help me, I'll be glad to send you either the money for supplies or a CD-R, whichever you choose. thanks so much!! Matt Jones Athens, GA ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2001 08:12:47 EDT From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: DJRD - why cut Jericho ? << 1. "I'll try" appears three times in the song, and I have come to basically agree with those who say that those words are indicators of immaturity. >> Bob S...thanks SO much for these great posts of yours! Sorry for taking so long to respond, but it's been a pretty crazy 48 hours! Anyway, I would suggest that "I'll try" is more honest & mature than "I promise" or "I will"...when we're teenagers or even getting married (the first time), we naively make promises about being heads over heels in love and will always be 100% dedicated to another person. Well, as life progresses, we discover just how tough it is "to make and keep a friend" (and I agree with Mark about the importance of being "friends" with a lover - not always easy to do!) As we all know, not all of those "I promise" and "I will" statements succeed. Many fail. And through that process, sometimes a more mature comment is one like: "I'll try and keep myself open up to you" Certainly not as great to hear as "I'll love you 'til the twelfth of never", but more honest and accepting of the foibles of both parties. And not *immature* at all, but rather suggestive of the fact that a successful relationship takes as much WORK as it does LOVE. All right, I've whipped this poor horse to death. Send him to the glue factory! Bob NP: They Might Be Giants, "Working Undercover For The Man" ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2001 08:35:49 EDT From: AsharaJM@aol.com Subject: Re: DJRD - why cut Jericho ? Southern Bob wrote: > "I'll try and keep myself open up to you" > > Certainly not as great to hear as "I'll love you 'til the twelfth of > never", > but more honest and accepting of the foibles of both parties. And not > *immature* at all, but rather suggestive of the fact that a successful > relationship takes as much WORK as it does LOVE. > I was thinking the other day about how little I post these days, (with the exception of all the Jonifest stuff) and was wondering why. Reading the posts about DJRD, one of my absolute all-time favorite songs, and these words by Bob as well as the well written posts by Bob S., my twin, Mark, and others, I realized that I am so "full" after reading them, there is little left I have to say. Thank you all, for all the differing opinions, and well thought out analysis. Hugs, Ashara P.S. If anyone has any "giveaways" for Jonifest, (Joni memoribilia, CD's, t-shirts, pictures, CD's that you have made, etc.) PLEASE send them on to me at: Ashara Stansfield P.O. Box 215 Topsfield, MA 01983 USA We are truly lacking in this department this year. THANKS!!! Only 68 more days!! ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2001 09:29:52 -0400 From: mags Subject: Re: Gosh darn it. Richard Rice wrote: > < Mitchell because she's Joni Mitchell.>> Sounds like unconditional love to me. That's my feeling with everything Joni. I may not be able to articulate all that I feel about certain songs (the way that so many of our gifted jmdlers are able to). I may not understand the technical why or why not in every single song she's written, however, I admire her tenacity in the face of everything she has had to endure. Despite everything and perhaps inspite of everything, Joni is still moving forward in her life. > < life experience that would probably make for grand 'universal' appeal in > the great Joni Mitchell tradition: if she were to examine her > relationship with her daughter, grandson and son-in law. Such a moving, > emotion filled subject in the hands of so gifted an artist would make > for an experience that would rock the jmdl world to it's core.>> From the position of meeting my own Little Green, I can only imagine how difficult it might be for Joni to even begin to lay down the words about her relationship with her daughter. How can she? So much emotion for which there are no words. How would she begin to talk about being a mother and yet not a mother, a grandmother and yet not a grandmother. Is she able make sense of it inside her soul well enough to move it out into a song that we can sing along to? I admire her for these things that swirl around deep inside her, the mysteries we know so little about. The things that even Joni may not be able to put into words. She is herself a magnificent work of art. She lives on in each and every word she writes. The way I 'hear' her songs constantly changes too, depending upon where I am in my life. Joni sings songs about her life, your life and mine. She continues to reach down inside me and make me feel. Everything. Mags np: The Enfolding And this loving is a drawing close, a tuning in, an opening Until one perfect moment; but how can it be expressed? A receiving, and enfolding as I cradle you in my arms. Within my heart, within my soul, You are my true love. Garnet Rogers, last verse of The Enfolding from the CD Speaking Softly in the Dark - -- --------------------------------------------------------------------- _~O / /\_, ___/\ /_ - ----------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2001 10:39:05 EDT From: AzeemAK@aol.com Subject: Re: Foni Mitchell / Vikki Clayton - STOP PRESS!!! In a message dated 22/06/01 23:26:22 GMT Daylight Time, Fonimitchell@aol.com writes: << Foni Mitchell have a new lead singer for the forthcoming UK gigs. The wonderful Vikki Clayton (Fairport Convention, Vikki Clayton Band, Ric Sanders & Fred T. Baker etc.) will be appearing with Foni Mitchell for their July - September gigs in place of Jo Rafferty, who left the band two weeks ago to pursue her solo career. >> Guys, this is an amazing development - she's one of my favourite singers, and I'd love to come and see you and her playing Joni songs. I'll have a look at the website, and hope that the tour makes it to London. All the ebst, Azeem in London NP: Christine Collister - Moon River ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2001 09:47:26 -0500 From: Kate Subject: why Joni does Brenda: > So maybe she has moved > into the interpretation phase to conquer the criticism and not out of > hubris but MAYBE to overcome some insecurity she may have with regard to > her voice. My .02: This will sound oversimple in this intelligent discussion, but I think Joni did the BSN album for the very simple reason that those songs are a JOY to sing. Kate of the North ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2001 12:47:37 -0700 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: guitars slightly out of tune sjc >>> Em made what I took to be a Joni reference when she said, "We Canadians like our guitars slightly out of tune." : )<<< That could also be a Neil Young reference as I think he has a rep (or did at one time) for this... ******************************************** Kate Bennett www.katebennett.com sponsored by Polysonics www.polysonics.com Discover the Indies at Taylor Guitars: http://www.taylorguitars.com/artists/awp/indies/bennett.html ******************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2001 13:09:38 -0700 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: Subject: Re: Thoughts on BSN & beyond... " Q magazine made a comment a few years ago, I think when Chalk Mark came out, that while she had plenty left to say, she had nothing left to prove." I like that quote. Though I don't think of Joni as someone motivated by trying to prove anything...I think of her as an intensely creative being who is always exploring & experimenting, discovering & allowing. To me this is the true nature of creativity as I have encountered it. There are moments that are almost a physical feeling (I relate it best to skiing when it becomes effortless...& I imagine it is also similar to being in the pocket of a wave for a surfer) of relaxing finding yourself in the presence of a muse & then just riding on that...too much intellect & you block...not enough & you spin off... Of course not every creative endeavor is that pure but I think most anyone that has ever experienced that is constantly trying to find their way back. And like Brenda said it really is about pleasing yourself...& it is also a very addictive sort of thing...wanting to get back to that amazing place... ******************************************** Kate Bennett www.katebennett.com sponsored by Polysonics www.polysonics.com Discover the Indies at Taylor Guitars: http://www.taylorguitars.com/artists/awp/indies/bennett.html ******************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2001 14:31:40 -0700 From: Randy Remote Subject: Re: Consumers and Creators. Hmmm...I found myself disagreeing with alot of this...so, respectfully: Richard Rice wrote: > Age, smoking, poor health and much more smoking have taken a toll on her > voice. The clear highs are lost. I agree with this > She's gained much in her ability to interpret a song with heart and > feeling. Her pitch has greatly improved over the years. I disagree with this. There's never been anything wrong with her pitch; and I scratch my head that her reduced ability to physically sing is anything but a liability. If greater experience in her life gives her a greater feeling and expressiveness-wouldn't it be even better if her voice were in better shape? > Anyone fortunate > enough to actually hear her in person can't help but admire the quality > of her singing voice. I saw her during the BSN tour at Concord CA. (And at least 5 different times over the years since '72). The thing about a live show is that there is excitement, there is affection for the performer, there is a suspension (hopefully, if you are there to enjoy yourself) of critical thought. I had a great time, enjoyed the music, etc. Later, a jmdler was kind enough to make me a copy of her Camden, NJ show. Ouch - IMO the singing is not too good. I wonder if the show I saw and completely enjoyed sounded similar. I suspect it did. > It's not the greatest in the universe. Again I have to disagree- the singing on FTR, Blue, even "Moon At the Window" is incredible, beautiful, as good as anything in pop music. A pliant, expressive voice with lots of range, flexibility....it's a testiment to her Goddess-given ability as a singer that she has been able to smoke heavily for so long and sing at all. > And the legion of singers who 'sing' better can't hold a candle to the > breath of creativity she has exhibited, then or now. Celine Dion or whoever's creativity or lack of it has nothing to do with Joni's ability to sing. They're two different things. > > And to all those so focused, including reviewers, on what she's lost, I > pray you're not doing the same with your receeding hair lines, widening > waist lines, or accumulating crows feet. > My god, people grow old. > No one is what they were in their youth. Get over it. Move through your > life with grace and accept the things you cannot change. Again, I have a problem with this...yes, time marches on, we grow old...but there are certainly things you can to do accelerate aging, or fend it off. You can exercise, eat right, take vitamins, meditate, etc, etc. I have no intention of accepting that I have to have aches and pains and take handfuls of presciption drugs as I see many people in my age group (I'm 45) doing. The two things a doctor will tell you is exercise and don't smoke. If you do these things you can stay younger longer. Don't roll over and accept senility, fight! Moving through your life with grace is easier when you are not wracked by unneccesary health problems. > She is not making products for consumers. Yes, she is. > You can measure her success from the point of view of a consumer... who > creates nothing, can second guess everything with perfect hindsight, or > lay any set of standards to what is created. So if someone has an opinion, they are an uncreative consumer with nothing to say? I am not putting words in your mouth, but it seems like that's your point...? > If you've done any creating in your life, other than consuming... Since this seems aimed at listers who have less than enthusiastic opinions about some of Joni's work, I would just point out that my observation of this group is that it is full of creative people who do more than just consume. > she moved on to 'her' material. And I thought to myself, "I don't listen > to Joni Mitchell because she's perfect. I listen to Joni because she's > Joni Mitchell." Me too. Perfect people are pretty boring. But "My Joni, right or wrong" makes about as much sense to me as "My country, right or wrong". If you're tired of the silent night, Jesus, then you yell it. Richard again: Of course, if Joni were inclined, I'm sure there's one thread of her life experience that would probably make for grand 'universal' appeal in the great Joni Mitchell tradition: if she were to examine her relationship with her daughter, grandson and son-in law. Such a moving, emotion filled subject in the hands of so gifted an artist would make for an experience that would rock the jmdl world to it's core. Me again: I wonder if such private and complex relationships always translate well to a 4 minute song. "Facelift", for example, makes me feel a little uneasy-like airing dirty laundry-I feel for her mother having such personal stuff publicized. But you're probably right, Joni could certainly continue to explore the themes of maturity and getting older, and I hope she does. And I agree with you also that the important thing is that she has remained creative and restless. Whatever we think is but a speck on the windshield. But we can still have opinions, and be thankful if Joni ignores all that and keeps on doing. RR ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2001 22:44:43 EDT From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: Consumers and Creators. << > She is not making products for consumers. Yes, she is. >> To which I offer one word: Hatbox Which, by the way was supposed to be some kinda limited edition thingy and it's still available all over the place a year and a half later...don't kid yourself, John, and I don't fault her for doing it, but this was pure commercialism at its best/worst, if only because it was released prior to the regular release knowing that LOTS of her most faithful fans would cough up the dough. Bob NP: Red House Painters, "Cruiser" ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 16:44:14 +1000 From: "P. Henry Boland" Subject: gallery cc: (cc'd from catgirl's pic-list) hi all, I haven't been able to be onlist at all lately but HAVE done a little more work on the gallery. in light of this post, tonite I decided to throw open all the doors, even though parts of the gallery are still very much under construction, so that now all can access pretty much everything I have. included in this update, in the 'rarespecialnew' section there are six jpegs of scans from private collections cointributed by their owners, four from a concert with CSN at Madison Square Garden thought to be around '79 and the other two from a concert with Tom Scott in CA. hope you all enjoy these. :o) http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumList?u=1502641&f=0 best regards, pat ps - thanks jim - --- "A liar never believes anyone and a thief always locks his doors." Get 250 color business cards for FREE! http://businesscards.lycos.com/vp/fastpath/ ------------------------------ End of onlyJMDL Digest V2001 #196 ********************************* ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she?