From: les@jmdl.com (onlyJMDL Digest) To: onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Subject: onlyJMDL Digest V2001 #195 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/onlyjoni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com Unsubscribe: mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe onlyJMDL Digest Sunday, June 24 2001 Volume 2001 : Number 195 The Official Joni Mitchell Homepage, created by Wally Breese, can be found at http://www.jonimitchell.com. It contains the latest news, a detailed bio, Original Interviews, essays, lyrics and much much more. The JMDL website can be found at http://www.jmdl.com and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. Information on the 4th "Annual" New England JoniFest: http://www.jmdl.com/jfne2001.cfm ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Today's Articles: June 23 [les@jmdl.com] Re: Thoughts on BSN [AzeemAK@aol.com] Re: Courtney Love [Mitch327@aol.com] Mr. T'ing page ["Steve Polifka" ] Re: Re: DJRD - why cut Jericho ?7 [Bobsart48@aol.com] Re: Thoughts on BSN/Interpretation/Proving something ["Brenda J. Walker" ] Re: JMDL Digest V2001 #266 [PMcfad@aol.com] good taste? [BachelorNumero2@aol.com] Re: Thoughts on BSN ["Mark or Travis" ] Re: good taste? ["Mark or Travis" ] Re: good taste? [colin ] Re: Thoughts on BSN [colin ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2001 03:32:15 -0400 From: les@jmdl.com Subject: Today's Articles: June 23 On June 23 these articles about Joni were published: 1998: "Back to the Garden" - Orange County Times Herald (News Item) http://www.jmdl.com/articles/docs/980623octhx.cfm 1998: "Back to the Garden" - Orange County Times Herald (News Item) http://www.jmdl.com/articles/docs/980623octh.cfm 1998: "Back to the Garden" - SonicNet website (News Item) http://www.jmdl.com/articles/docs/980623sn.cfm 1998: "Back to the Garden" - Los Angeles Times (News Item) http://www.jmdl.com/articles/docs/980623lat.cfm - ------------------------ The JMDL Article Database has 605 titles. http://www.jmdl.com/articles Contributions always welcome! ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2001 05:32:22 EDT From: AzeemAK@aol.com Subject: Re: Thoughts on BSN Fascinating debate, folks; I've adjusted the subject, as I'm more exercised about BSN than DJRD - and for the record, I wouldn't cut anything from the latter. In a message dated 23/06/01 04:57:03 GMT Daylight Time, mark.travis@gte.net writes: << I think we can, as Bob said, analyze and examine but in the end I just can't bring myself to say 'Joni should have done this differently' or 'Joni should have cut that song from this or that album'. >> My take on this is: why not? After all, we're just a bunch of fans chewing the fat about our favourite (give or take) singer and songwriter. None of us has the power to influence her artistic decisions, but we're perfectly entitled to volunteer our opinions on what she produces. After all, most of the comment on this list is much more considered and erudite than a lot of the press flak Joni has fielded over the years. << There aren't many people in the music business with the genius to be able to, first of all, conceive a complete, fully realized work of musical genius and then secondly, be able to go into a recording studio and make it happen: compose the music, write the incredible words, play the guitar, play the piano, >> Not trying to be a smartarse here, but one of my gripes with BSN is that on that project, Joni doesn't do any of these things! To me she's not playing to any of her many strengths; as far as I'm concerned, her voice has lost a lot more than it has gained with the wear and tear of the years. I know there are plenty of repectable voices who totally disagree with me here, but I'm sticking to my guns, and I think it may be a touch of artistic hubris creeping in that persuaded her to undertake this project. I'd add that it was only her two original songs on BSN that made much of an impression on me, apart from arrangements - for which she was not responsible. << I'm not saying that I don't appreciate some albums more than others but there's almost no-one else whose entire output is as brilliant overall as Joni's. >> I agree up to a point, in that I don't think Joni's ever made a bad record, or even a record that was less than good, unlike, to take the most obvious examples, Dylan or Neil Young (although I'd say the same - no substandard records - about Laura Nyro); however, I'm with those few Jonifans who don't think she's made a GREAT record for quite some time. It's not as if she hasn't earned a break from being blindingly brilliant, and she had a longer streak than most. Q magazine made a comment a few years ago, I think when Chalk Mark came out, that while she had plenty left to say, she had nothing left to prove. This strikes me now as very astute, and provides another parallel with Laura Nyro, whose flame burned with spectacular intensity for 3 albums (the trilogy of Eli & the 13th Confession/New York Tendaberry/Xmas & the Beads of Sweat), and then burned more steadily thereafter. Joni's purple patch, for me, was from Blue to Don Juan. To have made just one of those records would have granted immortality on anyone. That's my two penn'orth on this vexed question. Cheers, Azeem in London NP: Fools Give Birth To Angels (sublime new album from a spellbinding duo) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2001 08:15:33 EDT From: Mitch327@aol.com Subject: Re: Courtney Love Marcel, Haven't you ever heard "Courtney Love Plays Cecil Taylor"? NP - Still humming the Little Walter song that I saw Levon Helm and The Barnburners close their show with last night. Mitch ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2001 09:34:40 -0500 From: "Steve Polifka" Subject: Mr. T'ing page LMAO! Les, I pity the fool who doesn't check it out!!! sitting eating chocolate chips, breaking his darn diet, Steve in darn Milwaukee ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2001 11:58:56 EDT From: Bobsart48@aol.com Subject: Re: Re: DJRD - why cut Jericho ?7 Mark in Seattle, Thanks for your alternate insights re; Jericho. This highlighted for me another aspect of the song that may be disturbing me - my inability to get my arms around it solidly over time. I'll keep myself open to it - though I wish she had expressed her thoughts/feelings more clearly. As I said, I think she was struggling with this whole thing conceptually, too. NP - Jericho (DJRD) :-) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2001 09:07:40 -0700 From: "Brenda J. Walker" Subject: Re: Thoughts on BSN/Interpretation/Proving something AzeemAK@aol.com wrote: > > Not trying to be a smartarse here, but one of my gripes with BSN is that on > that project, Joni doesn't do any of these things! To me she's not playing > to any of her many strengths; as far as I'm concerned, her voice has lost a > lot more than it has gained with the wear and tear of the years. I know > there are plenty of repectable voices who totally disagree with me here, but > I'm sticking to my guns, and I think it may be a touch of artistic hubris > creeping in that persuaded her to undertake this project. > > Q magazine made a comment a few years ago, I think when Chalk Mark came out, > that while she had plenty left to say, she had nothing left to prove. This > strikes me now as very astute . . . Maybe Joni does still have something left to prove. Interpretation is as much a craft as playing the guitar or writing a song. And it seems (I was to young and unaware when her records prior to Mingus were first released to speak on it firsthand) that she has always been criticized one way or another with respect to her voice. So maybe she has moved into the interpretation phase to conquer the criticism and not out of hubris but MAYBE to overcome some insecurity she may have with regard to her voice. For some she did not succeed with BSN but in retrospect BSN may look like a necessary stepping stone for what followed it. I don't think an artist should have to play to their strengths to satisfy us. They should seek whatever inspires them even if it means ignoring what is considered to be the thing or things that they do well. I wholeheartedly subscribe to the notion that a true artist should seek first to satisfy themselves. My hope is that there was some challenge that she found in all of this and that it's still there for her. It can only mean that there will be good (and better still, great) music to come as she strives to conquer it. Brenda n.p. - Youssou N'Dour - No More ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2001 13:39:28 EDT From: PMcfad@aol.com Subject: Re: JMDL Digest V2001 #266 ali wrote: > colin this line comes from a popular (?) TV > personality from the 70's whose name was Mr. T. > i PITY THE FOOL who don't know T!!!! > i think the problem is in the phonetics. a more accurate post would be: i pidida foo ( to be said quickly ) pat np. randy newman - old man on the farm ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2001 14:03:08 EDT From: BachelorNumero2@aol.com Subject: good taste? "Words like 'cheesy' and 'synthesizers' have popped up. It made me reflect back on 80s pop music. When I think of 'cheesy 80s pop' I think of people like Hall & Oats, Kim Karnes, The Human League and Madonna. Then when I consider 'Wild Things Run Fast', 'Dog Eat Dog' and 'Chalk Mark in a Rain Storm' I find little or no resemblance in those records to Hall & Oats or any of those others that I mentioned before." - --I hate to be so disagreeable, BUT, I was one of those who posted that her 80's output was dated and dated badly.........(with the exception of some of "Wild Things".......and "smokin (try another)")....... Recordings by the 80's artists who did use state of the art production, (ex. Madonna, Prince, U2, Peter Gabriel) who had good producers at the helm, (Brian Eno, Daniel Lanois, Prince, Patrick Leonard) don't sound embarassingly awful. I'm sorry, but "Good Friends" is just terrible. As is the production for most of "Dog Eat Dog"......Thomas Dolby was not a good choice for that album. I love Joni, I think she is one of the greatest singer/songwriters who has ever lived, BUT, I can't say that I think "Dog" and "Chalk" are sonically in good taste. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2001 14:15:54 -0700 From: "Mark or Travis" Subject: Re: Thoughts on BSN > << I think we can, as Bob said, analyze and examine but in the end I just > can't bring myself to say 'Joni should have done this differently' or 'Joni > should have cut that song from this or that album'. >> > > My take on this is: why not? After all, we're just a bunch of fans chewing > the fat about our favourite (give or take) singer and songwriter. None of us > has the power to influence her artistic decisions, but we're perfectly > entitled to volunteer our opinions on what she produces. After all, most of > the comment on this list is much more considered and erudite than a lot of > the press flak Joni has fielded over the years. I was only speaking for myself, Azeem, and certainly not intending to censor anybody or dictate what people should post. I agree that most of what is written to the list is very well thought out & well written. Personally, I just don't feel qualified or inclined to say how Joni should do this that or the other thing as far as her music (or her artwork for that matter) is concerned. Now I'm sure at some point someone will probably call me on the carpet for this when somewhere down the line I make some remark about one of Joni's songs or albums that I am less fond of. When that happens I say go for it. I'm as human as anybody else and sometimes I'm completely full of you know what. > > Not trying to be a smartarse here, but one of my gripes with BSN is that on > that project, Joni doesn't do any of these things! To me she's not playing > to any of her many strengths; as far as I'm concerned, her voice has lost a > lot more than it has gained with the wear and tear of the years. I was referring more to the discussions of DJRD and what people think should have been cut from it. To me each side of the original 2 disc vinyl was kind of a mini song cycle, each one complete thematically & musically in & of itself. I can't see removing any of it & still preserving the integrity of the whole. BSN is kind of a different animal in that most of it is non-Joni material and she did not do the arrangements. It does sound like she had absolute confidence in Vince Mendoza, however, and if you had been lucky enough to see one of the live shows you would have seen that she was totally & joyously involved with the creation of this music. However, if you don't particularly care for the type of music she was performing, you won't like BSN. If you do like music that predates rock & roll but you think it needs to be sung by someone with a pretty voice with a wide range, you won't like BSN. If you think these songs should be performed in a more intimate, small jazz ensemble setting, you won't like BSN. However, if you are fan of singers like Billie Holiday who maybe don't have amazing vocal instruments but are skilled masters of their craft and have an ability to connect with the songs & communicate with an audience on a deep & profound emotional level, you might like BSN. I'm not saying Joni is anywhere near the level of Billie in this regard but I do think she manages to connect with these songs and put them across. I listened to BSN last night. I don't play it very often but each time I do I like it a little more. When I heard Joni's contributions to the Herbie Hancock 'Gershwin's World' I was impressed and so proud of her for interpreting those songs so beautifully. Now somebody can lambast me for this if they want, but I too would have loved it if Joni had chosen to record some standards with a small jazz ensemble. However, that's not what she wanted to do. Billie also wanted to record with strings and she made 'Lady in Satin' with Ray Ellis in 1958. I don't think Joni could have sung the songs on BSN half as well 20 years ago. I think the quality of her voice is much more suited to it now. Her maturity and life experience also add more depth to them than she would have been able to give them when she was younger. however, I'm with those few Jonifans who don't > think she's made a GREAT record for quite some time. And here I have to disagree. I think her last three albums of original music have all been great records and stand up along side any of her albums from the 70s. But that's just my opinion. . Joni's purple patch, for me, was from > Blue to Don Juan. To have made just one of those records would have granted > immortality on anyone. I certainly won't argue with that last statement. I also agree with what you wrote about Laura Nyro. > > That's my two penn'orth on this vexed question. Thanks for the contribution. I enjoyed reading what you had to say. Mark in Seattle ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2001 14:31:45 -0700 From: "Mark or Travis" Subject: Re: good taste? Recordings by the 80's > artists who did use state of the art production, (ex. Madonna, Prince, U2, > Peter Gabriel) who had good producers at the helm, (Brian Eno, Daniel Lanois, > Prince, Patrick Leonard) don't sound embarassingly awful. I'm sorry, but > "Good Friends" is just terrible. Well personally I don't care much for Prince, I've never been able to understand why anyone would consider Madonna a major talent and I don't know much about Peter Gabriel. I do like some of U2's early stuff but I think they've pretty much sold out or burnt out. I do have a lot of respect for Daniel Lanois if only for producing Emmylou's 'Wrecking Ball.' And you're entitled to your opinion but I don't see how 'Good Friend's is 'just terrible. As is the production for most of "Dog Eat > Dog"......Thomas Dolby was not a good choice for that album. I love Joni, I > think she is one of the greatest singer/songwriters who has ever lived, BUT, > I can't say that I think "Dog" and "Chalk" are sonically in good taste. Taste is all subjective isn't it? Who is the official arbiter of 'good taste?' I've always felt that in spite of the fact that Dolby attempted to take over from his original position as 'consultant' that the sound & production of 'Dog Eat Dog' are entirely appropriate for it's subject matter. As for 'Chalk Mark', that was Joni refining the sound a bit more and fitting it to a more personalized set of songs. By the time she recorded 'Night Ride Home' she was using those electronic sounds as shading, applying them sparsely for effect with beautiful results. Mark in Seattle ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2001 02:09:44 +0100 From: colin Subject: Re: good taste? > Who is the official arbiter of > 'good taste?' > Me! I say DED is wonderful, one of my favourite albums, and I say I don't like CMIARS at all.(except maybe Lakota) So there! ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2001 02:14:36 +0100 From: colin Subject: Re: Thoughts on BSN > I was referring more to the discussions of DJRD and what people think > should have been cut from it. I can see where you are coming from and agree with. I wouldn't dream of saying DJRD SHOULD be cut or that Joni SHOULD not have done this or that. However, given the choice and I have been as I have the cd, I only listen to TTM and TTW and Dreamland. If I could have a further choice I's make TTW nad Dreamland much longer than they are. But you are right, it would be the height of arrogance to suggest joni should have done anything different. We either like what she has done or not. We cannot possibly please everyone all the time and I am sure Joni knows this. Hence i am pretty sure she does what pleases her. if she is mature enough she will also be aware that (some)people will not like her work and not get upset about it. > To me each side of the original 2 disc > vinyl was kind of a mini song cycle, each one complete thematically & > musically in & of itself. I can't see removing any of it & still > preserving the integrity of the whole. > > BSN is kind of a different animal in that most of it is non-Joni > material and she did not do the arrangements. It does sound like she > had absolute confidence in Vince Mendoza, however, and if you had been > lucky enough to see one of the live shows you would have seen that she > was totally & joyously involved with the creation of this music. > However, if you don't particularly care for the type of music she was > performing, you won't like BSN. If you do like music that predates > rock & roll but you think it needs to be sung by someone with a pretty > voice with a wide range, you won't like BSN. If you think these songs > should be performed in a more intimate, small jazz ensemble setting, > you won't like BSN. > > However, if you are fan of singers like Billie Holiday who maybe don't > have amazing vocal instruments but are skilled masters of their craft > and have an ability to connect with the songs & communicate with an > audience on a deep & profound emotional level, you might like BSN. > I'm not saying Joni is anywhere near the level of Billie in this > regard but I do think she manages to connect with these songs and put > them across. I listened to BSN last night. I don't play it very > often but each time I do I like it a little more. When I heard Joni's > contributions to the Herbie Hancock 'Gershwin's World' I was impressed > and so proud of her for interpreting those songs so beautifully. Now > somebody can lambast me for this if they want, but I too would have > loved it if Joni had chosen to record some standards with a small jazz > ensemble. However, that's not what she wanted to do. Billie also > wanted to record with strings and she made 'Lady in Satin' with Ray > Ellis in 1958. I don't think Joni could have sung the songs on BSN > half as well 20 years ago. I think the quality of her voice is much > more suited to it now. Her maturity and life experience also add more > depth to them than she would have been able to give them when she was > younger. > > however, I'm with those few Jonifans who don't > > think she's made a GREAT record for quite some time. > > And here I have to disagree. I think her last three albums of > original music have all been great records and stand up along side any > of her albums from the 70s. But that's just my opinion. > > . Joni's purple patch, for me, was from > > Blue to Don Juan. To have made just one of those records would have > granted > > immortality on anyone. > > I certainly won't argue with that last statement. I also agree with > what you wrote about Laura Nyro. > > > > That's my two penn'orth on this vexed question. > > Thanks for the contribution. I enjoyed reading what you had to say. > > Mark in Seattle - -- bw colin BRO GC, 950i 940,864, 260, 890,Silver 830 and 270, Passap 6000 Duo80 colin@tantra-apso.com http://www.tantra-apso.com ------------------------------ End of onlyJMDL Digest V2001 #195 ********************************* ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she?