From: les@jmdl.com (onlyJMDL Digest) To: onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Subject: onlyJMDL Digest V2001 #193 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/onlyjoni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com Unsubscribe: mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe onlyJMDL Digest Saturday, June 23 2001 Volume 2001 : Number 193 The Official Joni Mitchell Homepage, created by Wally Breese, can be found at http://www.jonimitchell.com. It contains the latest news, a detailed bio, Original Interviews, essays, lyrics and much much more. The JMDL website can be found at http://www.jmdl.com and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. Information on the 4th "Annual" New England JoniFest: http://www.jmdl.com/jfne2001.cfm ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Today's Articles: June 22 [les@jmdl.com] Subject: Re: PWWAM ["Kate Bennett" ] Re: Both Sides Now [colin ] Re: so much Joni! [colin ] Re: Both Jaws Now [FMYFL@aol.com] Re: Donald Fagen? [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: JMDL Digest V2001 #265 [Bobsart48@aol.com] Re: DJRD - what would you cut ? [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: Both Jaws Now [colin ] Re: Donald Fagen? [Don Rowe ] Re: Donald Fagen? [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: Thoughts on DJRD and BSN posts (md) [MDESTE1@aol.com] Re: Thoughts on DJRD and BSN posts (md) [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] re: DJREditing ["c Karma" ] re: DJREditing ["Gerald Notaro (LIB)" ] re: Sonic Dating ["c Karma" ] I'll try to keep myself open up to you... ["Steve Harper" ] Re: Donald Fagen? [Catherine McKay ] Re: David Wilcox /Jonatha Brooke/Rufus Wainwright - vljc [Catherine McKay] Re: Both Jaws Now [Nancy ] Re: Both Jaws Now [Nancy ] Steely Dan track for Joni tribute [Howard ] Re: Both Jaws Now. [Richard Rice ] Foni Mitchell / Vikki Clayton - STOP PRESS!!! [Fonimitchell@aol.com] Re: Both Jaws Now. [colin ] Jericho vs. Lesson In Survival ["hell" ] Re: Thoughts on DJRD and BSN posts (md) ["Mark or Travis" ] Re: Both Jaws Now. [RoseMJoy@aol.com] Re: DJRD - why cut Jericho ? [Bobsart48@aol.com] Seattle gathering? ["Mark or Travis" ] [none] ["Dave and Beth Fairall" ] Re: DJRD - why cut Jericho ? [dsk ] Don Juan Edits ["Blair Fraipont" ] Re: David Wilcox /Jonatha Brooke/Rufus Wainwright - vljc [dsk Subject: Subject: Re: PWWAM Time & again that Graham Nash shows himself to be one classy guy... >>What did Graham Nash mean by "I've been carrying this award around for a year"? i.e. the R&R Hall of Fame ornament.<< >>she was a no-show, so Nash accepted it on her behalf.<< ******************************************** Kate Bennett www.katebennett.com sponsored by Polysonics www.polysonics.com Discover the Indies at Taylor Guitars: http://www.taylorguitars.com/artists/awp/indies/bennett.html ******************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 10:30:33 +0100 From: colin Subject: Re: Both Sides Now > Sorry guys, no flames, just a different > point of view. yes sue some people just don't have good ears!!!! > Hey, isn't that why we are all here :-) > > np: washer spinning up clothes for the gathering in Chicago. > > Get 250 color business cards for FREE! > http://businesscards.lycos.com/vp/fastpath/ - -- bw colin BRO GC, 950i 940,864, 260, 890,Silver 830 and 270, Passap 6000 Duo80 colin@tantra-apso.com http://www.tantra-apso.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 10:41:36 +0100 From: colin Subject: Re: so much Joni! > I always felt this way too Hell. I think maybe the problem or obstacles lie > within Joni herself, not the group. Joni's probelms here are no different to the problems the rest of us have to deal with. A big part of life is finding a balance between being an individual and being a member of the group or accepting that the more individual one is, the more the group will disaparage you. Being yourself is the only way to go to live an authentic life and one has to accept the flack that goes with it. Joni on the one hand seems to undertsand this, the importance of being individual, yet she seems to not have accepted that this will cause upset with others thru the failings of others. I think this cos she is always complaing about the flack. It seems maybe she thinks one can have their cake and eat it too. > > Or, perhaps maybe she just wants to spend some time alone with this guy and > have all his attention on her. > > rosemjoy@aol.com - -- bw colin BRO GC, 950i 940,864, 260, 890,Silver 830 and 270, Passap 6000 Duo80 colin@tantra-apso.com http://www.tantra-apso.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 07:48:01 EDT From: FMYFL@aol.com Subject: Re: Both Jaws Now In a message dated 6/21/01 6:50:33 PM Eastern Daylight Time, nuriel@wowmail.com writes: > It seems obvious that Madamme Mitchell's motivation for releasing the > preposterous "Both Sides Now" is purely dental: the old lady of the canyon > needs cash to finance her extensive oral treatments. Otherwise one could > not explain how an artist who was once appreciated for innovation and for > demanding the utmost from herself would hand us this ragbag of geriatric > love-songs. > First of all Nuriel (or son of Ada), I must commend you on your recent grasp of the English language. It seems like only yesterday that you were posting away, and I didn't have a *clue* as to what you were saying. As for Both "Sides" Now, I can appreciate your opinion as well as some other listers that don't particularly care for the CD. I on the other hand *LOVE* BSN, and couldn't disagree with you more, especially when you refer to BSN as a "ragbag of geriatric love songs". I will admit that I don't play BSN as much as Hejira, NRH, C&S....., but I do play it often. The CD is filled with wonderful classics, and I think Joni did do a great job with ALL of the songs. As I said, this is just my opinion, but I don't think Joni recorded this album because she needed "cash". Don't you think you're being a little bit harsh? Jimmy ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 08:07:41 EDT From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: Donald Fagen? <> I DO hope that Fagen/The Dan have done a track for the trib, but for the life o' me I can't hear "Carey". Not musically, not lyrically. "Be Cool", now THAT would sound awesome with a Dan treatment, or "In France They Kiss On Main Street", with Donald sneering through some of those lyrics. But not "Carey". Ugh. Bob NP: The Reivers, "Second Chance" ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 08:14:52 EDT From: Bobsart48@aol.com Subject: Re: JMDL Digest V2001 #265 Hi, Kakki. You wrote "I've admitted many times here that when DJRD first came out I thought it was some of the weirdest sh*t I'd ever heard! But I could not dismiss it and was compelled to play it over and over to try to "get it". Good for you - as I admitted, I tried, too but.... "I also didn't feel like "why isn't she writing stuff like Blue and FTR anymore?" I confess I felt the feeling, even though I checked myself whenever I started to think the thought. "It was very apparent that the former Joni "era" was long packed away at that point and one either needed to move along with her (as bumbling as that felt at the time) or to just stop at that point and never move past Court and Spark." And as I have confessed, I took the low road. But "never" is a big word, so now I am back. > There is a lot of pressure on a reviewer when, under time constraints, she has to produce a review of a work > by a person of far greater talent, based on insufficient time to absorb, feel > and analyze. Agreed. Guess I would have respected Maslin's opinion more if she had just admitted that it was odd and baffling and tried to muddle it out from there. Me, too. But that would have shown some humility, and humility does not sell. :-~ But I thought that you left out some of the more withering comments like: You caught me. Some of those Maslin comments are so off the mark, I dismissed them altogether the first time, and cannot even bear to copy them this time. OK, maybe it was a "bad" review after all - though for the sake of my "pride" I still prefer not to think of it as a "terrible" one, even though I think it missed the mark. Best regards, Bob S. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 08:24:06 EDT From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: DJRD - what would you cut ? <> Firstly, Bob S, thanks for bringing your post to the masses...it was much too good to be enjoyed by only me! And I'm really bowled over at your statement here, because to ME Jericho is one the most **mature** love songs ever written! Rather than being written from a state of infatuation (where the majority of love songs originate, I would guess), Jericho is written from the maturation point of a relationship, where one realizes that their love is not perfect, that the person they once probably called a "soul mate" seems like they're a million miles away sometimes. And that she is guilty of the same thing! "When you just can no longer pretend That you're getting what you need Or you're giving out anything for them to grow and feed on" And this MIGHT seem like the end of the relationship, BUT she follows it with this line: "I'll try to keep myself open up to you It gets easier and easier to do Just like Jericho Let these walls come tumbling down now" As if to indicate that she is willing to realize the "fault lines" in herself, her partner, and the realtionship, and to still succeed within those parameters. Shallow? Far from it, to my understanding. The depth of the lyric is why I would place it on Hejira, it partners with the sentiment of "Blue Motel Room" imo. It reminds me of the great post from Siresorrow Pat, who said that in a marriage/partnership, there are three things; you, your partner, and the "it" that is the relationship. That realization comes from maturity, I think. <> And I would say that she's the kind of golfer who had aspirations of playing on the PGA tour (LPGA I suppose), but in time realizes that she's not going to make it and can still find pleasure in playing to the best of her limitations. Thanks for letting me play through! ;~) Bob M. NP: The Reivers, "Lazy Afternoon" ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 13:45:56 +0100 From: colin Subject: Re: Both Jaws Now > I on the other hand *LOVE* > BSN, and couldn't disagree with you more, especially when you refer to BSN as > a "ragbag of geriatric love songs". of course Jimmy IS a geriatric! :-0 (but not a ragbag) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 07:19:32 -0700 (PDT) From: Don Rowe Subject: Re: Donald Fagen? - --- SCJoniGuy@aol.com wrote: > > But not "Carey". > > Ugh. > Now let us not be hasty here! This intrigues the hell out of me ... about the only thing you'd have to do is change the spelling of the title: "Carrie" ... and adjust one line: "Oh you're a mean old *lady* ..." NOW can you hear Fagen's sneer? If not, put "Cousin Dupree" on repeat for an evening and call me in the morning! ;-) Don Rowe ===== Visit me anytime at http://www.mp3.com/donrowe Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 10:33:37 EDT From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: Donald Fagen? <<... and adjust one line: "Oh you're a mean old *lady* ...">> True, but I don't see Donald being spoiled by fancy white linen and fancy french cologne...might just be me. Some of it would work, to be sure, "playing that scratchy rock n' roll beneath the Mattala moon"..."Mattala" being one of those "Custerdome" type words that seem unique. So, I've down-graded to half an ugh. And while I'm at it, I would love to hear David Lahm's drummer on the next Dan disc. That guy rules! Bob NP: The Reivers, "Wherehaus Jamb" ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 10:45:07 EDT From: MDESTE1@aol.com Subject: Re: Thoughts on DJRD and BSN posts (md) After reading a whole bunch of the reviews and editing comments I ask: Why do people always take everything in the micro. If you look at these albums isolated from anything and everything else they look one way and let the nitpicking begin. However, taken along with the rest of Joni Mitchels life or career and they look very different. DJRD was a continuation of her Hejira. Not the album but her continuous journey. Joni hasnt coasted ever in her career. She has forcibly pushed her envelope ongoing. Why would the helium voiced folkie chick suddenly veer into blind alleys and box canyons with Jaco Pastorius and Charles Mingus when she could simply do what everyone expects her to do. Simple. She's Amelia. If what she did wasnt as good as something else prior "So what". Anyway is the fact that it "isnt as good" her problem or the listeners limited taste. So can anyone say DJRD is a bad album. Nope. Like all the others there is a quality there and some gem songs. Anyone ever always produce masterpiece albums. Nope. Not even the Beatles. I think this is what one needs to appreciate about Joni Mitchell, her utter bravery. She pulls off every album she has ever made and then some. Cotton Avenue especially the intro is so unique, different, and a stretching out of her abilities as both a writer and a player that the first time I heard it I said, "This must be someone else I wonder who she got to play this" and began looking at the liner notes. As for Paprica Planes. I wonder about some people and what they know about music. Ive written lots of songs but for the life of me I cant imagine where she got those melody lines and if in fact she wrote the arrangements they are absolute genius. Long ? yes but then there was alot of statement that she wanted to make and the orchestral wanderings are reminiscent of Dvorak at some of his better points. Huzzah to that.I think Paprica is a gauntlet to other artists. Try THAT the woman says to her rivals. Think about it. How many musicians could have done that. Bruce Springsteen, Hootie and the Blowfish, The FuFighters, Courtney Love, tell me who? Who or how many have even tried. I dont dote on the song but every time I listen to it I ask myself "How did she write that one". How did the mind that wrote Morning Morgantown come up with music from Mars. That is what I find most interesting about that album and her. As for Late Night Backstreet. Joni is once again revealing that her ex boyfriend treats her like a tramp (AND she lets him and the line about finding the hair in the bathtub drain always makes me howl. The melody line at that point. Again how did the singer who invented "Clouds" and Circle Game come up with that eerie Twilight Zone finish. Silky Veils is Joni going back to the womb. Thats the place from whence she came, pure folk. Did she place it on this album as a reminder to someone or as proof she can still bring feeling to a traditional folk song. Just brilliant. You dont like it. Hah ! As for Both sides Now. Im not jumping up and down about it but then again i dont see this project as anything other than Joni having a ball. How many of you fearless critics have ever been on a stage with a full fledged orchestra including a string section. Personally I havent either but Im not going to have the audacity to suggest that she shouldnt have at it or doesnt deserve the indulgence. And what better songs to try with that immense musical vehicle than the kinds of classics that such an ensemble used to accompany it. When i heard from the listers review that she was doing Case of You and Judgement I whooped with joy because she was simply dressing up her own classics in 1940s clothes. Its her right to do that. AND it worked. Joni is clearly winding down her career and her life sort of like Imogen did, more control, more refined, but never stopping the experimentation. She resolutely refuses to allow anyone or anything to control the path she blazes and frankly I cant wait to see where she goes next. I may not like it when she gets there but I will always love the fact that she tries. When there is a Giant among you, you just observe. Like they used to say about Michael Jordan, you cant stop her you can only hope to contain her. We are all entitled to our opinions. On the other hand there are trees and then there is the forrest. Marcel Deste ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 11:13:40 EDT From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: Thoughts on DJRD and BSN posts (md) A wonderfully written piece, Marcel, very enjoyable and very true. I would add that what you call "nitpicking" I would call an in-depth analysis that would seem to be the primary purpose of this list. As for Paprika Plains, there's a neat section on the "Rock Master Class" interview where she discusses how she wrote PP...she just put her fingers on the keys and let them explore. She even does the same thing live in the interview, and it's a very chilling and exciting moment. You get a real feel for how she invented this brilliant piece of music. And perhaps there were some, ahem, other stimulants driving the muse at the time... <> Of course, none of these artists are appropriate choices, and by the same token THEY do things that Joni couldn't do. To answer your question, I would suggest that Frank Zappa was as musically creative as Joni is in Paprika Plains in terms of composition and bandleading. There are probably others like Steve Reich or John Cage, but I don't know enough about them to comment. Bob NP: REM, "King of Birds" ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 15:19:29 -0000 From: "c Karma" Subject: re: DJREditing Wills, Have to agree with you wholeheartedly on your NON-edit to DJRD. This discussion is getting me itchy to write a vitriolic treatise on why I think "Paprika Plains" is one of the three best pieces Joni has written to date. Just mho, tho. CC Like a filing to a magnet. Like the long descent of rain. I am drawn.-- JM _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 11:31:23 -0400 (EDT) From: "Gerald Notaro (LIB)" Subject: re: DJREditing I have to admit Joni lost me originally with DJRD, as she did with many others. Of course it is now one of my favorites and one of her most daring and prophetic works. She can't help if her genius is not " 'n synch " with the masses. Jerry Heading to Ft. Lauderdale and Miami for my birthday! ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 15:48:47 -0000 From: "c Karma" Subject: re: Sonic Dating I never listen to Joni on the first date. CC _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 18:13:05 From: "Steve Harper" Subject: I'll try to keep myself open up to you... Allow me to come up with a few words about my feelings for the song, "Jericho," discussed here of late in the "how might we change DJRD" thread. I REALLY like this song, in both of Joni's incarnations of it. When reading suggestions that Jericho be one to cut out of Don Juan, my thought was "no, let's cut everything else first." (Even though I like the album, it is one of my lesser favorites, and "Jericho" is the highlight for me.) There is a sadness in Jericho that runs beneath the surface of the song. The song in its entirety seems fueled by Joni's resignation that success in a close relationship is not likely to last, but let's try, try again. I don't think it is immature at all. I see it as an attempt to be hopeful and move closer to the happiness she wants in a realistic fashion. It is perhaps, in a way, fatalistic. ("Anyone will tell you just how hard it is to make and keep a friend...") It is interesting to me that this "trying to keep myself open up to you" seems possibly like a new idea to her, as if she has any choice but to attempt to be open if she is going to be in a close, enduring relationship with someone. I think this change is a leap in maturity, realizing that lives shared together require openness and, almost certainly, compromise. And this change is voluntary, a "promise that I made to love," as if she's "finally found a way to keep the good feelings alive" that would make all this "grown-up" behavior possible for her. I love the ideas of openness and the kind of relational integrity that she describes. I think many therapists would suggest that a "warm" relationship is a "healthy" thing to aspire to, but some of the emotional quid pro quo she describes in the second verse could possibly end up with the lovers in a - --oh, no, that awful, overused catch phrase-- "codependent" situation. But then I DO want to enjoy the approval of my partner, as he can give it, and do occasionally feel a desire to pull from his confidence when I feel shaken. The trick is to be vigilant of the degree to which one must rely on the other person; these rich "gifts" must be exchanged warmly, equally. And we are all human. Joni never seems to get overexcited in this song; these are measured thoughts. But in the last verse, she affirms that, for a possibility of wonder, we gotta work at it, and it gets easier. A dialogue like this, perhaps: "Let the soldiers in. But let them scale the tower of my personality. If you want to find me, I'm here, the door's open, and I've got a kennel on (sorry, kettle!) Let's make this happen, love: "Let these walls come tumbling down NOW, let them fall right on the ground. Let all these dogs go running free, the wild and the gentle dogs kenneled in me." Jericho was the walled city whose structure God toppled for his followers to conquer for him, right? I am not sure that it is all that resonant of an extended metaphor as used by Joni here. (Sort of the way allusions to Blake in "Taming the Tiger" don't seem to add any depth or understanding to the song, to my ears.) But it is relevant that the story pits the "chosen people" against an enemy, and whereas in the story, one side is conquered, in the song, Joni is suggesting that there is no enemy, that we must willingly let down our walls not to vanquish but to share. She sort of mixes her metaphors by calling herself a Judas in the bridge, but here is the complexity: will we betray our loved one or nurture him? (By the way, in the story, I read that the harlot of Jericho was saved from destruction in the story because she harbored Joshua's messengers. (Why are there so many harlots with hearts of gold in the Bible?)) But back to the song...there is a straightforwardness to it that is striking. It is different from many of Joni's songs in that it is a second-person address; the song is being directly addressed to the lovee (or alternately, perhaps, being mused out loud to herself, but I prefer the former.) I am trying to think of other songs of hers in second person; help me out everyone! I have to agree, and I have always thought, that Jericho seems out of place on Don Juan's Reckless Daughter. My guess was that she thought of it so fondly as such a strong song that she just HAD to include it on another album in a studio form, and DJRD was the first place she found to put it. It was, clearly, appropriate to or necessary for her to record it twice. A personal aside, I was very excited upon first hearing the song that it was a new version of the MOA song. I hadn't put two and two together for some reason when reading the label. I was thrilled to hear those words in that setting. And both versions are quite different. You might say that the first from "Miles of Aisles" is given the L.A. Express treatment, and the DJRD version, the Jaco treatment (Jaco, et al.) The moodiness of the second version reflects an older, even more world-weary and introspective Joni. Her voice sounds different, less precious, jazzier, of course. As I recall, I have on at least one occasion called this my favorite Joni song. (High praise, indeed!) This has been fun to write...thanks for reading... Openly, on a rainy Friday afternoon, Steve _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 10:51:18 -0700 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: Donald Fagen? Last night as I was out driving, I swear, a kind of Steely Dan Carey suddenly came and played in my head and it works brilliantly! It did have a Cousin Dupree-West of Hollywood sound, too! Doncha know Donald, if anyone, can pull this off. Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 15:04:33 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: Donald Fagen? - --- SCJoniGuy@aol.com wrote: > <<... and adjust one line: > > "Oh you're a mean old *lady* ...">> > > True, but I don't see Donald being spoiled by fancy > white linen and fancy french cologne...might just be > me. > How about, "I'M a mean old daddy - and I like it?" or, "I'm a mean old daddy ... and you like it"? I could hear Donald sneering that, can't you? and you could just change the words a bit to read, "You're used to your clean white linens and your fancy French colognes." In fact (why not?) Donald could be singing it to a guy, so why change it at all - the words would be the same, but the sneer would add a whole lot of innuendo that might not otherwise be there. Get your free @yahoo.ca address at http://mail.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 15:29:19 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: David Wilcox /Jonatha Brooke/Rufus Wainwright - vljc > --- dsk wrote: > P.S. I don't like Jonatha's music much either, and > can't stand that > whine in her voice, so... what do I know? - --- Alison E wrote: > i've heard more than one person say they thought > jonatha was whiney. i don't hear it. she has a real, > heartfelt quality to her voice that gets me. I think I see Deb's point, but I also see Alison's. There is a certain quality in Jonatha's voice (not always, depends on what she's singing) that sometimes gets on my nerves. Not exactly whiny, more nasal. Anyway, i got over it but every now and then there's a vocal tic that can be a bit grating. (When she sings, "My clothes are in your closet", there's something about those "cl" sounds... Having said that, I love Jonatha's stuff. There are certain vocalizations that Joni does sometimes that I'm not crazy about either (blasphemy!) - - such as, some of the whoop-y things she does in songs such as "You turn me on, I'm a radio", but then, it's a "country" piece, so it is kind of necessary. I can see how that might irritate some people, but all in all, there are more things IMHO to admire than to dislike. Still, you can't expect everyone to agree on this kind of thing, and that's fine - why should they? People were talking about Rufus Wainwright earlier. I really like his stuff but, again, I can see why he wouldn't be for everyone. Someone (and I don't remember who it was) compared him to Cole Porter and so on. His style is pretty retro, sounds like it could have come from the 20s, 30s or 40s, in some case, maybe even earlier, like Stephen Foster (his family background does include a lot of exposure to that kind of music, so it's not surprising. A lot of people find his voice really irritating, but I think it fits the kind of songs he writes and sings. Kind of decadent, kind of sentimental; kind of sleazy, kind of humourous. Combines romance and silliness. I think one of the reasons I enjoy his stuff may be the kind of things I was exposed to as a kid - my parents listened to a lot of Broadway stuff, Lerner and Lowe and so on. I couldn't listen to opera without going into hysterical giggle fits - if there was an opera singer on the Ed Sullivan Show, I'd have to leave the room or hide behind the sofa (I still don't think it would be safe for me to attend a live opera for the same reason - I'd probably be kicked out!) But guess what I'd be imitating when I made up my own songs? Opera voices. Fascinating stuff, even though I don't think I'll ever *get* it. Get your free @yahoo.ca address at http://mail.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 15:42:53 -0500 From: Nancy Subject: Re: Both Jaws Now Hi all, I am back on the list!! It took me a while to "adjust" to Joni singing the older songs (most of which I had never heard before) accompanied by an orchestra. I can appreciate the thinking that went into putting it together (as stated by Larry Klein in the notes that came with the CD). I like the idea of starting with a romance budding, then going downhill until there is nothing left of the relationship. The themes of the songs could very well illustrate Joni's romantic life, but she, of course, would not have written them in the same way. At the time those songs were popular, I was the first one to say "Change the station!!" But now that I'm a *grown-up*, I can appreciate that sort of music--it isn't my favorite, but I don't "dislike" it enough to change stations. In fact, lately at my job, we have been listening to an oldies station that has actually played a few of those songs, probably the original versions! My older son (14) likes the newer rock music, and I am even beginning to like some of his favorites! I must be very diverse in my appreciation of music (though I still really do not like opera!) >Is it possible that after all we have gone through with Joni, we wind up >with heap of sentimental cliches, lyrically on a par with the crassest pop >music on offer in every record shop? I don't see anything wrong with Joni compiling an album of songs that would appeal to those who "hanker for the Good Old Days". The worst thing it can do is increase the number of people who will become "enlightened", and maybe seek out more of Joni's music. > It seems that the several last years of rubbing shoulders with the American >entertainment bourgoise, and recieving their accolades and honors, have >finally gotten to Joni: Both Sides Now is a Christmas gift for the self- >indulgent classes, to sing along to as they hanker for the Good Old Days. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 15:44:50 -0500 From: Nancy Subject: Re: Both Jaws Now I didn't mean to be anonymous! (Blushing) It's me--Nancy-IA ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 20:07:32 +0100 From: Howard Subject: Steely Dan track for Joni tribute For all Steely/Joni fans: Steely Dan have recorded a track for the upcoming Warner Bros Joni tribute CD. Roger Nichols was quoted as saying he spent 6 days working on the track, which made it the fastest Steely Dan recording ever made! Apparently, the song they chose to cover was "Carey" which came as quite a shock to me! Can't imagine Donald singing that one somehow... maybe they'll do it as an instrumental, or just rework it to suit their style? Something to look forward to anyhow! Howard ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 16:11:10 -0500 From: "Michael Paz" Subject: YAY Vienna Tab Woman!!!!!! Costa Mesa: Are you ever going to do a songbook with your unique guitar tunings? What was it like working with Bob Clearmountain and Marcus Miller? Jonatha Brooke: I hope to someday, it's a question of what to spend time and money on, and when. For now, they're all on the website in the tunings, gear tech section, and there's a fabulous woman in Vienna who's been doing tab for a lot of the tunes on her own. Bob Clearmountain and Marcus Miller were both dreamy - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- - ---- This was the first question asked of Jonatha Brooke in the Washington Post online event today at noon. OM MY GAWD Marian you are frigging famous!!!! This is SO cool! Thanks to Marian I have added at least one Jonatha tune to my set in Sept. I talked to her here in New Orleand about this and I know she is still planning on doing it. She is really into chocolate so don't be surprised if she wants to do it over there. Great job Marian! Love Paz NP-Cold Morning Light-Todd Rundgren (My Sonicnet) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 16:30:45 -0500 From: Richard Rice Subject: Re: Both Jaws Now. Recycle those "unwanted" cd's of Both Sides Now by mailing them to the following address: John Calimee 630 N.... er, on second thought, email me for the address. -Not that I'll give you anything back for the 'trash'. Consider it an act of kindness: You will be putting crap back into the hands of those who love crap. Besides, one should never give a moment's notice to anything you don't love. Life's too short. There's too much to be absorbed. Bad music isn't worth the post. (Which is why I'm on the jmdl and nowhere else.)You may want to resist adding future Joni material to your shopping carts. Her voice isn't going to get any better. Doing so will save you 18 dollars! With which you can purchase an artist with a lovelier voice... or add a few dollars to the retirement account... or buy a long stem rose, a steak or two and entertain a loved one and spare yourself the waste of electricity griping about how bad her voice has become. So please, I could use a few extra copies of BSN. Act now, this offer won't last forever. - ---I was thinking just this afternoon on my evening run how Joni's new rendition of BSN tore right into my heart when I heard it. Whatever I could say about wishing for this, wishing for that, Her reinterpretation of BSN made the project a welcome treasure in my home. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 18:08:55 EDT From: Fonimitchell@aol.com Subject: Foni Mitchell / Vikki Clayton - STOP PRESS!!! Foni Mitchell have a new lead singer for the forthcoming UK gigs. The wonderful Vikki Clayton (Fairport Convention, Vikki Clayton Band, Ric Sanders & Fred T. Baker etc.) will be appearing with Foni Mitchell for their July - September gigs in place of Jo Rafferty, who left the band two weeks ago to pursue her solo career. Vikki will be well known to lots of you, having released a number of albums including a collection of Sandy Denny covers, and having toured extensively. Vikki will be at the Cropredy Festival (Oxordshire) with Fairport Convention on August 11th. Please check Vikki's site - www.vikkiclayton.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 23:36:00 +0100 From: colin Subject: Re: Both Jaws Now. Richard Rice wrote: > Recycle those "unwanted" cd's of Both Sides Now by mailing them to the > following address: > I keep it for the saame reason i keep Mingus-to complete my colelction! Wouldn't dream of not having them. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2001 14:47:29 +1200 From: "hell" Subject: Jericho vs. Lesson In Survival Maybe the walls tumbling down in Jericho have some connection to the reef she refers to in Lesson In Survival? Maybe the right person can break down those barriers after all.... Hell ____________________________ "To have great poets, there must be great audiences too." - Walt Whitman hell@ihug.co.nz Hell's Personal Photo Page: http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~hell/main/personal.htm Visit the NBLs (Natural Born Losers) at: http://www.nbls.co.nz ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 18:41:02 -0700 From: "Mark or Travis" Subject: Re: Thoughts on DJRD and BSN posts (md) Marcel Deste wrote: "If you look at these albums isolated from anything and everything else they look one way and let the nitpicking begin. However, taken along with the rest of Joni Mitchels life or career and they look very different." "She resolutely refuses to allow anyone or anything to control the path she blazes and frankly I cant wait to see where she goes next. I may not like it when she gets there but I will always love the fact that she tries. When there is a Giant among you, you just observe. Like they used to say about Michael Jordan, you cant stop her you can only hope to contain her. We are all entitled to our opinions. On the other hand there are trees and then there is the forrest." And I write: I just had to respond with a hearty 'right-on Marcel!' to this post. I think we can, as Bob said, analyze and examine but in the end I just can't bring myself to say 'Joni should have done this differently' or 'Joni should have cut that song from this or that album'. There aren't many people in the music business with the genius to be able to, first of all, conceive a complete, fully realized work of musical genius and then secondly, be able to go into a recording studio and make it happen: compose the music, write the incredible words, play the guitar, play the piano, play the dulcimer, work out what you want the other musicians to play, make adjustments as they come to you in the creative process, be willing to experiment, work & refine until she has at last realized the vision she is pursuing. There are other artists who specialize in one or two or maybe three of the things that this woman excels in and yes I can occasionally point to something one of them has done and say 'why did they record that song?' or 'why did they use that arrangement on that song?' or 'they should have done that differently'. But not Joni. Her visions are her visions and they are complete visions. Joni is the only person that knows how to realize those visions and she has all the talent and know how to do it. Tamper with it, subtract from it, add something to it or alter it and it is no longer Joni's vision. I for one would never dream of trying to second guess her or tell her what to do. I'm not saying that I don't appreciate some albums more than others but there's almost no-one else whose entire output is as brilliant overall as Joni's. And if that is blind, fanatical devotion, so be it. Thanks, Marcel. I've been blocked lately. Sat down to respond to a post or two and just couldn't make myself do it. Don't know why but I'm in a funk. I feel sometimes like I don't have anything more to contribute here. It also really bums me out that I can't be at Ashara's again this year. Maybe I just have too many things on my mind these days. Between family worries, layoffs at work and a budget that's getting stretched too thin these days, I think I'm feeling the stress. I needed a little help to find my way back here. Mark in Seattle ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 17:44:58 -0700 From: "Mark or Travis" Subject: Re: Donald Fagen? > <<... and adjust one line: > > "Oh you're a mean old *lady* ...">> > > True, but I don't see Donald being spoiled by fancy white linen and fancy french cologne...might just be me. how about 'clean white lines and fancy French Cognac' instead? Mark in Seattle ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 23:45:14 EDT From: RoseMJoy@aol.com Subject: Re: Both Jaws Now. In a message dated 6/22/01 6:11:11 PM Eastern Daylight Time, f40rmr1@corn.cso.niu.edu writes: > Her reinterpretation of BSN made the project a welcome treasure in my > home. > > > And in my heart too > rosemjoy@aol.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 23:55:10 EDT From: Bobsart48@aol.com Subject: Re: DJRD - why cut Jericho ? I wrote to Bob M "I am replying off line so as to avoid irritating others on the list who hold Jericho among their favorites." And after I eventually posted the message to the list, Bob M. replied: "Firstly, Bob S, thanks for bringing your post to the masses...it was much too good to be enjoyed by only me! And I'm really bowled over at your statement here, because to ME Jericho is one the most **mature** love songs ever written! " So, Bob M, it sounds like I should have been at least as worried about ruffling yours feathers as all the others on the list ;-). Seriously, since you are the lyric mavin, I am forced to respectfully reconsider. However, I know this; the lyric disturbs and irritates me. I suspect this is on two levels. First, there is something (are some things) that really bother me about the content and style of the message - perhaps a line by line analysis would increase my insight as to why. Second, I suspect that there is something a little too close to home for me in this song, that I would prefer not to confront - perhaps a visit for a different kind of analysis is in order instead. ;-~ Here is a brief go at the first analysis: 1. "I'll try" appears three times in the song, and I have come to basically agree with those who say that those words are indicators of immaturity. I much prefer "I'll promise" or "I will". Joni says she made a promise to love when it was new, but I would have preferred the promise to be to the the partner, and not to her efforts in the game of love, which sounds more like a promise to herself. 2. She says "keep myself open up to you", implying that she is already open (has no trouble opening up), but has trouble staying open. If she had said "I''ll try to open myself up to you", that could have logically led into "let these walls come tumbling down" - but it sounds like they were already down. This may be a semantic nit to pick, but she repeats it twice later in the song, so I feel entitled to assume it was a deliberate choice of words. Let's give her the benefit of the doubt, and assume she meant that a relationship that seems open for now is not really open for good until the walls are down permanently. 3. "I said it like I finally found the way to keep the good feelings alive - - I said it like it was something to strive for". This couplet sounds to me like she thinks that keeping the good feelings (infatuation ?) alive is the issure rather than developing them further into something deeper and more commited. Also, the word "like" implies that she doubts the words she uttered - - "like I finally found the way (as if she hadn't)...like it was something to strive for (as if it weren't) - and is still not convinced her promise is the way to go. 4. "Approve your self expression". Why should her partner need her approval - isn't the "space" to act and express oneself openly a given in a mature relationship, no approval needed ? (This is not to be confused with approving each act or expression itself.) 5. "I need that too" - is that the space, or the approval ? (refer to "The Same Situation") 6. "I need your confidence, baby, and the gift of your extra time - In turn I'll give you mine". Here, the order matters to me. First, we have her needs (that is backwards thinking in relationships, really). Once she has that, she will return the favor - it is an exchange. Rather, "I'll give you my confidence honey (stop calling me baby), and the gift of my extra time - in turn I'd love to have yours, too ( do it that way, and you will get it). 7. "Sweet darling, it's a rich exchange, it seems to me, it's a warm arrangement" . There, that sounds like a fair trade, doesn't it ? And while I believe that good relationships are warm arrangements - not in the pejorative sense of her devastating, penetrating song of that title from LOTC - it sounds to me like she is trying convince herself or her partner that that is good enough - let's settle, even if we have to pretend a little bit. 8. "Anyone will tell you Just how hard it is to make and keep a friend". A great line - to some other song. What's friendship got to do with it ? ;-) I say that half-jokingly, but hasn't this been a song about love up until now ? And in the next line she excuses the ending of friendships (has she reduced the love to friendship in order to justify walking away from it ?) - either your friend screws you, or you (Joni) are the Judas - when you can no longer pretend. Is she thinking about doing it again - walking out because she is bored, and is not looking for "a warm arrangement" ?. Then she tries to stop herself short of doing it, reminding herself with the repeat of the final verse's chant, and the revelation that staying and working at it rather than bolting is getting easier with the discipline of practice. Are we doing well because of discipline, or are we naturals, do we really feel it ? Maybe that's what's bothering me. Whew. I'm spent. Forget the other analysis. ;-) Bob S. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 19:19:20 -0700 From: "Mark or Travis" Subject: Seattle gathering? Phyliss Ward is going to be in Seattle and is wondering if anyone would in the area would like to meet & greet either on 6/29 or the late afternoon/evening of Saturday July 7 or Sunday July 8. Catherine Turley, would you be up for this? Scott Price, is there any chance we could entice you down from the Peninsula on any of these dates? Any other JMDLers in the Seattle area that have some free time on those dates & would like to get together for dinner or lunch or whatever with Phyliss? Email me offlist if you're interested. Sorry for not marking this njc but I wanted to be sure everybody on both lists sees it. Mark in Seattle (really Shoreline but why be technical?) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 20:13:34 -0500 From: "Dave and Beth Fairall" Subject: [none] Subject: Re: DJRD - why cut Jericho ? Bob, Your detailed analysis is fascinating. I'm struck especially by your comment at the very end: > Are we doing well because of discipline, or are we naturals, do we really > feel it ? Maybe that's what's bothering me. Good question. Jericho is one song I've always wanted to like, and have never been able to. To me it seems self-conscious and stilted and full of good ideas, but without much genuine feeling... very unlike Joni's other songs. Debra Shea ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 20:25:40 -0400 From: "Blair Fraipont" Subject: Don Juan Edits Honestly, I don't know why we would even think about editing this album. First of all,if you own a Cd Player, which most of us do, It is easy to fast forward a bit through the Tenth World or Paprika Planes. If we are Record owners, I can understand the need of just having one disc. The other reason why I can't understand why we would cut this album, is that many of us are constantly craving over the only Joni that we have. We all wish there was more (possibly?) We wish she would keep putting out more records, so I don't know why we would want to chop down the branches of this beautiful tree (really corny imitiative Nick Drakesqueness). If anything I would put Paprika Plains at the end of the album. To Me, it could have made a really bombastic and terrific ending. Also, finally, I could never edit any of Jaco's performance let alone any of JOni's lyrics (even as 'un-joni" as some of them may be -(paraphrased quote from a fellow JMDLer). But I am not mad. Just confus-ed. Also, Wild THings Run Fast used to erk the hell out of me, but I honestly appreciate it for what it is, A good pop album, and nothing else. I think the thing that upset me the most (tears rushing out of my ducts) was that alot of the lyrics weren't as thick.. etc etc. Love blairsy NP:New Rhumba- Miles Davis _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2001 01:02:41 -0400 From: dsk Subject: Re: David Wilcox /Jonatha Brooke/Rufus Wainwright - vljc Catherine McKay wrote: > I think I see Deb's point, but I also see Alison's. > There is a certain quality in Jonatha's voice (not > always, depends on what she's singing) that sometimes > gets on my nerves. Not exactly whiny, more nasal. Yeah, yeah, exactly, kind of a buzzing in her nose. Whenever I hear it I expect her to go into some full-blown country-music heavy-on-the-nasal-sound singing, which never happens (thank god), but just the thought of it makes hearing the buzz unpleasant. > Anyway, i got over it but every now and then there's a > vocal tic that can be a bit grating. (When she sings, > "My clothes are in your closet", there's something > about those "cl" sounds... Having said that, I love > Jonatha's stuff. I have a couple of her cds and haven't listened enough to get past that nasal sound yet. I do like her energy, though. She's full of feeling and that's a really big deal to me. So... maybe I'll listen again. > There are certain vocalizations that Joni does > sometimes that I'm not crazy about either (blasphemy!) Some of Joni's warbling on her early albums sounds unnatural now, but she deliberately chose to sing that way (and Joni's voice is still pleasing to me even then), which is different than Jonatha's occasional nasal sound that she may not have any control over. > Still, you can't expect everyone to agree on > this kind of thing, and that's fine - why should they? Exactly. How dull that would be! Debra Shea ------------------------------ End of onlyJMDL Digest V2001 #193 ********************************* ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she?