From: les@jmdl.com (onlyJMDL Digest) To: onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Subject: onlyJMDL Digest V2001 #191 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/onlyjoni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com Unsubscribe: mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe onlyJMDL Digest Friday, June 22 2001 Volume 2001 : Number 191 The Official Joni Mitchell Homepage, created by Wally Breese, can be found at http://www.jonimitchell.com. It contains the latest news, a detailed bio, Original Interviews, essays, lyrics and much much more. The JMDL website can be found at http://www.jmdl.com and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. Information on the 4th "Annual" New England JoniFest: http://www.jmdl.com/jfne2001.cfm ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Today in Joni History: June 21 [les@jmdl.com] Re: Subject: Pissing and telling...dancing & telling (SJC) ["Kakki" ] Re: Today in Joni History: June 21 [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] RE: Does this line ruin "L.I.S."? [mintagli@ypf.com.ar] RE: Does this line ruin "L.I.S."? [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Don Juan's Reckless Editing [CHRIS TREACY ] (no subject) [Jodcrazee@aol.com] Lesson in Survival [Jodcrazee@aol.com] Re: Does this line ruin "L.I.S."? ["blonde in the bleachers" ] PWWAM ["William Waddell" ] Joni and Klein ["Gerald Notaro (LIB)" ] Sound and Vision ["Gerald Notaro (LIB)" ] Both Jaws Now [Nuriel Tobias ] Re: Both Jaws Now [AzeemAK@aol.com] Re: Both Jaws Now [colin ] Joni mention ["hell" ] Re: Lesson in Survival [Randy Remote ] Re: PWWAM [Randy Remote ] Both Sides Now ["Suze Cameron" ] Re: Both Jaws Now [Randy Remote ] Re: Joni and Klein [Randy Remote ] Re: Joni and Klein ["Gerald Notaro (LIB)" ] Re: Both Jaws Now [Randy Remote ] Re: Joni and Klein ["Gerald Notaro (LIB)" ] Re: so much Joni! ["hell" ] Re: so much Joni! [RoseMJoy@aol.com] Re: DJRD - what would you cut ?MDL Digest V2001 #263 [Bobsart48@aol.com] Re: DJRD - what would you cut ? [Bobsart48@aol.com] Re: Don Juan Cuts [Mitch327@aol.com] John Lee Hooker (RIP) [MDESTE1@aol.com] Re: review of DJRD - long post [Bobsart48@aol.com] Re: JMDL Digest V2001 #264 [Bobsart48@aol.com] Re: JMDL Digest V2001 #264 [Bobsart48@aol.com] Re: review of DJRD - long post ["Kakki" ] Sonic Dating [BachelorNumero2@aol.com] re: Nuriel's review of BSN ["Robert Holliston" ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 03:09:57 -0400 From: les@jmdl.com Subject: Today in Joni History: June 21 On June 21 in Joni Mitchell History: 1967: Today, Joni begins a three-week engagement at the "Le Hibou" coffeehouse in Ottawa. More info: http://www.jmdl.com/articles/docs/670628v.cfm - ------------------------ Search (and contribute to) the "Today" database: http://www.jmdl.com/today ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 00:22:58 -0700 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: Subject: Pissing and telling...dancing & telling (SJC) Oh Lawdy..... Roger gets around - he was dancing with a group next to me at a small nightclub in Redondo Beach a couple years ago, too. ;-D Loved your story, Paz, it does sound like a night to remember! Kakki > If memeory serves I think it was Roger Clinton and of course me. It was a > freaky night. Did I tell the story about Clinton TRYING to sing Love The One > Your With? I certainly did love the ones "I" was with, but Roger's singing > was a little to "white" for the Neville Brothers for my taste. I am > researching the date of that show for my boy Les for his Joni Diary. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 09:33:23 +0100 From: colin Subject: Re: I Can't Seem To Make It Socially SMEBD@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 6/20/01 6:45:34 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > colin@tantra-apso.com writes: > > > >> both lines seem to suggest a shaky self esteem too > > I agree. I think in many ways Joni is a very vulnerable person. This > comes > thru in many of her lyrics. This aspect of her personality is one of > the > things that I was most able to identify with when I first started > listening > to her music. She had the ability to express what I was feeling. > Don't get > me wrong, I do think that she is a very strong woman--she is a > survivor--but > I feel that underneath all of the bravado, there is a very fragile and > > beautiful soul. Yes tho the same could be said for all of us whether we see our vulnerability or not. bw colin - -- bw colin BRO GC, 950i 940,864, 260, 890,Silver 830 and 270, Passap 6000 Duo80 colin@tantra-apso.com http://www.tantra-apso.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 08:17:32 EDT From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: Today in Joni History: June 21 <<1967: Today, Joni begins a three-week engagement at the "Le Hibou" coffeehouse in Ottawa. More info: http://www.jmdl.com/articles/docs/670628v.cfm>> Man, I don't know what I would like better...a copy of that gig, or seeing Joni in an intimate club for $1.75!! ;~) Bob NP: Pete Droge, "Beautiful Girl" ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 10:09:14 -0300 From: mintagli@ypf.com.ar Subject: RE: Does this line ruin "L.I.S."? I listened to "For the roses" for the first time a month ago. It's become quite an obsession ever since. And I have to admit that the line: "Oh baby I can't seem to make it with you socially" is one of the very few troubling passages I encounter in a record that I've found unusually easy to love. I would blame the difficulty partly on the high, penetrating "baby" but essentially I would blame it on the "socially" which to me sounds... journalistic, or too technical -out of place in such a lyrical, melancholy song. On the other hand, I think that line completes the story she's narrating, so eventhough I don't enjoy it, I would describe it as necessary. There goes another very useful post of mine. Mariana, sleepy and cold in Argentina ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 09:40:52 EDT From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: RE: Does this line ruin "L.I.S."? <<-out of place in such a lyrical, melancholy song. >> Which may have been a very conscious effort on Joni's part... I think it's like the line in Song For Sharon: "But all I *really* want to do is - find another lover" in which she speaks directly and to the point for an effect. I think in LIS she uses this same technique to convey that on one level, there's an undercurrent of what she percieves is happening with his friends, but on a pure GUT level she's saying that it's JUST NOT WORKING. Now, there's the possibility that I'm over-reading or giving Joni too much credit, and that the line is stylistically a mistake, another "big boo-hoo", but Joni has proven to be much more brilliant than I, so I'll give her the benefit of the doubt! ;~) Bob NP: Red House Painters, "Blindfold" ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 06:58:03 -0700 (PDT) From: CHRIS TREACY Subject: Don Juan's Reckless Editing If I had to edit the recording, It's Paprika Plains I'd be rid of. Though quite beautiful in parts, I think it's a wee bit overblown. Plus, there's something about the vocal take that's annoying to me. Sorry that I cannot be more specific, DJRD is my second fave JM recording (Hissing is #1), and this one track has always stood out to me as unnecessary. However, the previously metioned thought of editing Otis & Marlena to an (OMIGAWD!) instrumental is blasphemy. All IMHO. NP:"Breaking Up Somebody's Home"-Patty Griffin ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 10:14:51 EDT From: Jodcrazee@aol.com Subject: (no subject) That was a beautiful interpretatio. It is like someone else from the group. If my friend were to hear Song For Sharon again today she would probably interpret it differently. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 10:25:24 EDT From: Jodcrazee@aol.com Subject: Lesson in Survival I have always heard this was about the brief time she was with Jackson Browne. And isn't he the subject of "Not to Blame"? When asked about this Jackson just said "Joni is not well." ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 13:31:39 -0400 From: "blonde in the bleachers" Subject: Re: Does this line ruin "L.I.S."? Not every relationship can overcome public opinion, especially when one or possibly both people are famous musicians. People are not willing to admit that what other people say can affect how they think, act, and feel in some intances and it can lead people to sway one way or another. It would seem that Joni is willing to make a commitment to this person and at one time she did believe in their love, he seems to be the one unwilling to budge and she may believe it is because of his friends and their attitude towards her. "I can't seem to make it with you socially, there's this reef around me" >From: colin >Reply-To: colin >To: Joni@smoe.org >Subject: Re: Does this line ruin "L.I.S."? >Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2001 22:35:12 +0100 > >blonde in the bleachers wrote: > > > It would seem that his friends don't like her > >and this is a good reason to end a relationship? Is Joni being shallow here? >Or does he treat her differently because his friends don't like her? Has he >not told his friends'well fuck you, I like her'? > >I don't think social class, race, friends, careers, family and all the other >excuses are good enough reasons to end a relationship. Now if two people >don't get on, can;t communicate, can't share, they are good reasons for a >relationship to end. Ending because of other people is rather wimpy. > >In two weeks time it is our 20th anniversary and we are having a mini Joni >gettogether to celebrate it. John and I come from completely different social >backgrounds, have comnpletely different tastes in music, arts ect, different >attitudes to life, very different temperaments. we have had no family to back >our union, no societal backing, no legal backing, no spiritual backing. In >fact we have had much pressure opposing our union. However, we committed to >eachother at the get go, worked thru our idfferences and let our love of >eachother see us thru the rough times(and there have been rough times-you try >living with a bipolar abuse survivor!). Above all we accept eachother as we >are and don't try and change eachother. >John gets what he wants and needs from me and me from him. We each have >different sets of friends that supply our other needs. The two sets don't mix >and have never met. Our careers compliment eachother-he a high flying >professional and me a knitwear designer cum house queen. He got what he wated >out of life in terms of career and I got what I wanted-love and stability. >Career never interested me. >bw >colin > > > > > > > "Maybe its paranoia,maybe its sensitivity, your friends protect you, > > scrutinize me, I get so damn timid, not at all the spirit that's inside > > of me, oh baby I can't seem to make it with you socially" - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 20:33:45 +0100 From: colin Subject: Re: Does this line ruin "L.I.S."? blonde in the bleachers wrote: > Not every relationship can overcome public opinion, especially when one > or possibly both people are famous musicians. People are not willing to > admit that what other people say can affect how they think, act, and feel > in some intances and it can lead people to sway one way or another. true tho it doesn't have to be that way. it boils down to character. > It > would seem that Joni is willing to make a commitment to this person and > at one time she did believe in their love, he seems to be the one > unwilling to budge and she may believe it is because of his friends and > their attitude towards her. If so, i think she is wrong. If there is fault it would lie with the lover not with the friends. He seems rather fickle and someone she is better off without. > "I can't seem to make it with you socially, > there's this reef around me" bw colin BRO GC, 950i 940,864, 260, 890,Silver 830 and 270, Passap 6000 Duo80 colin@tantra-apso.com http://www.tantra-apso.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 15:43:10 -0500 From: "William Waddell" Subject: PWWAM PWWAM - more like POW! WHAM! I know this is old stuff for the Line but I just watched "Painting with Words and Music" and was wondering if it was a select audience or what. What did Graham Nash mean by "I've been carrying this award around for a year"? i.e. the R&R Hall of Fame ornament. Were any of you JMDLers there? BTW, here's what I'd omit from DJRD: Have a great weekend. Willy the Shake _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 18:34:56 -0400 (EDT) From: "Gerald Notaro (LIB)" Subject: Joni and Klein There is a very interesting article in the July/August 2001 on engineering with Larry Klein. Some significant info on BSN recording. Les, it's on its way. Jerry ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 18:39:48 -0400 (EDT) From: "Gerald Notaro (LIB)" Subject: Sound and Vision There is also a review of the DVD-Audio release of Both Sides now in the issue. When I was in NYC I noticed BSN DVD-A prominently displayed at all the big stores with a big gold grammy winner sticker. Nothing for Joni to complain about there. Jerry ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 15:44:01 -0700 (PDT) From: Nuriel Tobias Subject: Both Jaws Now It seems obvious that Madamme Mitchell's motivation for releasing the preposterous "Both Sides Now" is purely dental: the old lady of the canyon needs cash to finance her extensive oral treatments. Otherwise one could not explain how an artist who was once appreciated for innovation and for demanding the utmost from herself would hand us this ragbag of geriatric love-songs. Joni is singing love-songs to no-one. Listening to this album feels like a visit to a children's theme-park (whose theme is LOVE), lacking even a single exciting ride. Is it possible that after all we have gone through with Joni, we wind up with heap of sentimental cliches, lyrically on a par with the crassest pop music on offer in every record shop? It seems that the several last years of rubbing shoulders with the American entertainment bourgoise, and recieving their accolades and honors, have finally gotten to Joni: Both Sides Now is a Christmas gift for the self-indulgent classes, to sing along to as they hanker for the Good Old Days. Nuriel _____________________________________________________________ Free email, web pages, news, entertainment, weather and MORE! Check out -------------------------------> http://wowmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 18:59:29 EDT From: AzeemAK@aol.com Subject: Re: Both Jaws Now In a message dated 21/06/01 23:50:33 GMT Daylight Time, nuriel@wowmail.com writes: << It seems obvious that Madamme Mitchell's motivation for releasing the preposterous "Both Sides Now" is purely dental: the old lady of the canyon needs cash to finance her extensive oral treatments. Otherwise one could not explain how an artist who was once appreciated for innovation and for demanding the utmost from herself would hand us this ragbag of geriatric love-songs. >> Good heavens, Nuriel - send for the flak shields now! My take on this is that I don't listen to it now, and some of my own reservations about the project still hold firm as far as I'm concerned. I think the arrangements are stunning, and yet I don't feel Joni's voice is suited to the songs, and it seems light years away from her best work. I don't agree about her motivation for embarking on the project - I think she fancies herself as an interpreter of standards, and only hope that she loses that notion and cops a lesson from Dylan's amazing comeback with Time Out Of Mind. Azeem in London ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 00:22:44 +0100 From: colin Subject: Re: Both Jaws Now First of all, I thought the title of this email was clever and amusing. Second of all, I can't say i disagree with the rest of the email except I don't think she made it in order to pay her dentist! As azeem said already, out for flame proofs on. I said, long ebfore BSN was released, that i thought it would be a mistake as Joni's voice was not suited to this type of singing( or as my partner said' she has amazing talent as a musician and songrwriter but she still can't sing'.) and you should have seen the flames thrown! One person even left the list because he couldn't understand how anyone could say anything negative at all about the Goddess! I would much rather have had another of her own compositions. Nuriel Tobias wrote: > It seems obvious that Madamme Mitchell's motivation for releasing the preposterous "Both Sides Now" is purely dental: the old lady of the canyon needs cash to finance her extensive oral treatments. Otherwise one could not explain how an artist who was once appreciated for innovation and for demanding the utmost from herself would hand us this ragbag of geriatric love-songs. > Joni is singing love-songs to no-one. Listening to this album feels like a visit to a children's theme-park (whose theme is LOVE), lacking even a single exciting ride. Is it possible that after all we have gone through with Joni, we wind up with heap of sentimental cliches, lyrically on a par with the crassest pop music on offer in every record shop? > It seems that the several last years of rubbing shoulders with the American entertainment bourgoise, and recieving their accolades and honors, have finally gotten to Joni: Both Sides Now is a Christmas gift for the self-indulgent classes, to sing along to as they hanker for the Good Old Days. > > Nuriel > > _____________________________________________________________ > Free email, web pages, news, entertainment, weather and MORE! > Check out -------------------------------> http://wowmail.com - -- bw colin BRO GC, 950i 940,864, 260, 890,Silver 830 and 270, Passap 6000 Duo80 colin@tantra-apso.com http://www.tantra-apso.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 11:45:50 +1200 From: "hell" Subject: Joni mention Continuing the Carole King theme (sort of) I found this little snippet the other day, while searching for information on Louise Goffin (daughter of Carole King). I'm not sure if it's been mentioned here before or not: "Louise has precious memories, of sitting on Aretha Franklin's knee when she was recording Natural Woman, and of Joni Mitchell sketching her backstage at a concert. Yet she is wary of mythologizing her upbringing. 'I feel like my parents were the parents of my creativity in a way, but in terms of getting direction and learning how to take care of things, it was really not an environment where they could have a family responsibility. I was like a kid around other kids and it's been a long road figuring out how grown-ups actually function in the world.'" You can see the entire thing here: http://www.unm.edu/~rocks/l_goffin.htm Hell ____________________________ "To have great poets, there must be great audiences too." - Walt Whitman hell@ihug.co.nz Hell's Personal Photo Page: http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~hell/main/personal.htm Visit the NBLs (Natural Born Losers) at: http://www.nbls.co.nz ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 17:00:19 -0700 From: Randy Remote Subject: Re: Lesson in Survival When "Not To Blame" came out, JB made public comments about how nasty it was of Joni to write this song about him without even talking to him. For her part, she has denied that it IS about him, but some of the references say otherwise.... The "For The Roses" songs including LIS are presumably about Joni's breakup with James Taylor. The line "Black road double yellow line" seems to be a veiled clue; JT had just finished the movie "Two Lane Blacktop". Also "Friends and kin, campers in the kitchen" fits: Livingstone and Kate Taylor were performing musicians at the time. Joni seems to be complaining about not having enough "one on one" with James, and feeling uneasy within his social circle. RR Jodcrazee@aol.com wrote: > I have always heard this was about the brief time she was with Jackson > Browne. And isn't he the subject of "Not to Blame"? When asked about this > Jackson just said "Joni is not well." ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 17:02:24 -0700 From: Randy Remote Subject: Re: PWWAM Joni received her induction into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame the year before-she was a no-show, so Nash accepted it on her behalf. Joni's relationship with Rolling Stone (who are behind the RRH of F) has been pretty rocky over the years. From her comments about keeping the award in the bag it would seem she had little regard for it. Her surprise at Nash standing up and presenting it to her seems genuine. As for your question about the audience; there were some jmdl'ers at the taping(s), some appear in the video-maybe they can tell you about it. RR ps I would emit the same from DJRD William Waddell wrote: > PWWAM - more like POW! WHAM! I know this is old stuff for the Line but I > just watched "Painting with Words and Music" and was wondering if it was a > select audience or what. What did Graham Nash mean by "I've been carrying > this award around for a year"? i.e. the R&R Hall of Fame ornament. Were any > of you JMDLers there? BTW, here's what I'd omit from DJRD: > > Have a great weekend. > Willy the Shake > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 20:05:39 -0400 From: "Suze Cameron" Subject: Both Sides Now Guess Nuriel and Colin weren't blessed with seeing and hearing this event live. Yes, her voice has suffered with smoking/age. Yes, at times the orchestra overwhelmed her. To hear A Case of You, For the Roses... The album for me is sentimental as it also reminds me of the lovely gathering held in Detroit, where new friends met and old friends were reacquainting. Sorry guys, no flames, just a different point of view. Hey, isn't that why we are all here :-) np: washer spinning up clothes for the gathering in Chicago. Get 250 color business cards for FREE! http://businesscards.lycos.com/vp/fastpath/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 17:07:53 -0700 From: Randy Remote Subject: Re: Both Jaws Now Wait 'til she does her album of Xmas songs...I'm not making this up, either...her plan as of last year was to do two more orchestral projects, the first of originals, the 2nd of "Xmas" stuff- apparently something like "River" would qualify because it mentions "Xmas" once. She has referred to it as her "Have Yourself a Dreary Little Xmas" album. I would be elated if she dropped the idea- but I reckon Joni will do what she damn well wants to. As far as Joni doing BSN for the money, I doubt if it has made any...she financed it herself...went to England to hire out an orchestra...I don't think it has sold more than 300,000 copies- figure in record co. promotion, touring....she may be eating through a straw for awhile! RR , who has played BSN twice and has no immediate plans to play it again.... Nuriel Tobias wrote: > It seems obvious that Madamme Mitchell's motivation for releasing the preposterous "Both Sides Now" is purely dental: the old lady of the canyon needs cash to finance her extensive oral treatments. Otherwise one could not explain how an artist who was once appreciated for innovation and for demanding the utmost from herself would hand us this ragbag of geriatric love-songs. > Joni is singing love-songs to no-one. Listening to this album feels like a visit to a children's theme-park (whose theme is LOVE), lacking even a single exciting ride. Is it possible that after all we have gone through with Joni, we wind up with heap of sentimental cliches, lyrically on a par with the crassest pop music on offer in every record shop? > It seems that the several last years of rubbing shoulders with the American entertainment bourgoise, and recieving their accolades and honors, have finally gotten to Joni: Both Sides Now is a Christmas gift for the self-indulgent classes, to sing along to as they hanker for the Good Old Days. > > Nuriel ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 17:09:07 -0700 From: Randy Remote Subject: Re: Joni and Klein What magazine? "Gerald Notaro (LIB)" wrote: > There is a very interesting article in the July/August 2001 on engineering > with Larry Klein. Some significant info on BSN recording. Les, it's on its > way. > > Jerry ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 20:14:52 -0400 (EDT) From: "Gerald Notaro (LIB)" Subject: Re: Joni and Klein Sound and Vision. Jerry On Thu, 21 Jun 2001, Randy Remote wrote: > What magazine? > > "Gerald Notaro (LIB)" wrote: > > > There is a very interesting article in the July/August 2001 on engineering > > with Larry Klein. Some significant info on BSN recording. Les, it's on its > > way. > > > > Jerry ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 17:27:12 -0700 From: Randy Remote Subject: Re: Both Jaws Now Randy Remote wrote: > > her plan as of last year was to do two more orchestral > projects, the first of originals, Clarification: this would be a collection of her old songs done up with orchestra, not new material. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 20:23:24 -0400 (EDT) From: "Gerald Notaro (LIB)" Subject: Re: Joni and Klein Sorry. Sound and Vision. Jerry On Thu, 21 Jun 2001, Randy Remote wrote: > What magazine? > > "Gerald Notaro (LIB)" wrote: > > > There is a very interesting article in the July/August 2001 on engineering > > with Larry Klein. Some significant info on BSN recording. Les, it's on its > > way. > > > > Jerry ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 12:54:42 +1200 From: "hell" Subject: Re: so much Joni! Anne wrote, and so I'll add my comments too: > LIS - no, I don't think the line "Oh baby, I can't seem to make it with you > socially" ruins the song at all. BUT it does need the relative sparseness of > the following line "There's this reef around me" to complete the thought > literally, musically, and rhythmically. I've always thought this was more about Joni not accepting the group, rather than the group not accepting her. The line "there's this reef around me" seems to me to mean that she's got this invisible "shield" around her, making it impossible for anyone to get close. > Song for Sharon - I was thinking about the line "I've still got my eyes on > the land and the > sky" which I've often puzzled over. I think she's referring to being on the > road and precisely the image from the song book for Hejira. (I forget if > it's on the CD booklet anywhere.) The image shows just land, including the > road ahead, and sky. I think she's saying that that's all she sees. And, no, > I don't think the song refers to her wanting to have an affair with Sharon's > husband. She's just "restless for home and routine." The line "I've still got my eyes on the land and the sky" always seemed to me to be a reference to the horizon, and that she's always looking at what's ahead, rather than where she actually is. > WTRF - I like WTRF. A lot, actually. It's interesting too because Joni sings > actually HAPPY love songs on it! For me, it kind of fills a Joni void > because there were times before WTRF when I was happy and didn't have a Joni > song to listen to for the occasion... Of course, if it were me, I'd just go > to the bank, withdraw whatever money necessary, and buy whatever Joni I > didn't have... I wish there were still some Joni albums I didn't have. I love hearing a new album from an artist I love - but it just doesn't happen often enough! Hell ____________________________ "To have great poets, there must be great audiences too." - Walt Whitman hell@ihug.co.nz Hell's Personal Photo Page: http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~hell/main/personal.htm Visit the NBLs (Natural Born Losers) at: http://www.nbls.co.nz ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 21:12:04 EDT From: RoseMJoy@aol.com Subject: Re: so much Joni! In a message dated 6/21/01 9:03:16 PM Eastern Daylight Time, hell@ihug.co.nz writes: > I've always thought this was more about Joni not accepting the group, rather > than the group not accepting her. The line "there's this reef around me" > seems to me to mean that she's got this invisible "shield" around her, > making it impossible for anyone to get close. > > I always felt this way too Hell. I think maybe the problem or obstacles lie within Joni herself, not the group. Or, perhaps maybe she just wants to spend some time alone with this guy and have all his attention on her. rosemjoy@aol.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 21:24:21 EDT From: Bobsart48@aol.com Subject: Re: DJRD - what would you cut ?MDL Digest V2001 #263 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 21:33:35 EDT From: Bobsart48@aol.com Subject: Re: DJRD - what would you cut ? In a previous post, I had suggested I would cut Jericho and Tenth World, and move Otis and Marlena to Jericho's spot. SCJoniGuy then posed the question: "So anyway Bob, are you saying that it should not have been released in studio form at all? Would it have fit better on Hejira? (I think maybe it fits better there). Or maybe you're thinking something else." I originally replied off-line so as not to offend anyone, but my opinions seemed no stronger than some others that followed, so I will share my reply to Bob M. "I am replying off line so as to avoid irritating others on the list who hold Jericho among their favorites. First, my post was intended to be semi-humorous, in that I really think it is pretentious of me to be second guessing her on what "should" (a big word) or should not be on her creations. Hopefully, I made that clear. Second, that said, I really was thinking "how could I turn DJRD into a regular length CD ?" And my answer was sincere in that regard, albeit arrogant and therefor stupid (since I am flirting with repeating the mistakes of my past). Primarily, I do not think it fits on DJRD. DJRD is, to me, a brilliant but sort of manic-depressive work. More manic, actually. Punctuated by Silky Veils, the depressive side, and perhaps revealing of the source of the manic behavior. Jericho is much more rational, contemplative, intellectual. It really does not fit to me. However, I think she did well to leave it off of Hissing (and certainly Hejira, since I think it would have diluted that album, and I suspect that album begins where the Jericho relationship itself tumbled down). Also, however, I find the song musically mediocre, and the lyrical content disappointingly shallow - almost immature. She says to Love "I promise to do better, and work harder at it, at making it a two way street" (I paraphrase, at best). If these were then current revelations or insights that she was sharing (my gut reaction is "duh"), they hint to me that the depths of her prior self absorption must have been quite great, which I prefer not to accept as the likely truth. I think, rather, that the work lacks confidence - she is on unsteady ground, as the lyrics themselves suggest - and is trying too hard to force success in an area with which she has been struggling. She sounds like the golfer who feels she needs to re-vamp her whole swing, when really it is just one or two corrections, and her swing is basically pretty much ok as is. In a sense, then, she is in between games, and the cut is perfectly placed in MOA, which as a tour album is part of a transitional period for her. I guess, then, if I were in charge of the editing, I would have left it off of the studio albums - at least the ones she actually produced. Sentimentally, I think it might be better suited to WTRF, but I am not yet really into that album enough to feel strongly about that - just an impression at this moment. I could be all wet. I always enjoy your posts - you have a fan here. Bob S." ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 21:56:51 EDT From: Mitch327@aol.com Subject: Re: Don Juan Cuts How about just a 70 minute version of the title track? NP - Bela Fleck "Blue Mountain Hop" ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 22:42:01 EDT From: MDESTE1@aol.com Subject: John Lee Hooker (RIP) I just saw on the news the passing of John Lee Hooker. One of the absolute legends. His influence is never given all that he deserves. He invented Bo Diddly. He is the ultimate hero of Van Morrison. Hes one of those cats that his music sounds so simple yet no one could ever really duplicate his phrasing because it was always so unpredictable. The rhythmic infrastructure of his songs was along with Robert Johnson a huge part of the ingredients of the 60s blues rock. I will miss him. Marcel ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 23:47:19 EDT From: Bobsart48@aol.com Subject: Re: review of DJRD - long post Kakki referred us to a review with: "I found this review from Rolling Stone on the JMDL articles site amusing -http://www.jmdl.com/articles/docs/780309rs.cfm Janet Maslin completely flicks it off (along with Hissing and Hejira, no less). I love reading some of these old reviews and wonder if the authors ever reconsidered their appraisals listening to the albums again years later." Well, I confess again that I probably would have concurred with the reviewer at that time, and I have certainly reconsidered my appraisal of DJRD, since I currently listen to it as often as (if not more often than) any of her others. And I like it a lot - or I wouldn't listen to it. Still, it is not a bad review as reviews go - it is written with some intelligence - and it is not entirely a negative review of Joni and her work, either. I would love to pick apart all of the lines of the review (a reviewer puts oneself on the line for posterity to critique and criticize, just as the artist does), but here are most of the key ones (hopefully not too out of context): In retrospect, Blue turns out to been the album that displayed Joni Mitchell at her most buoyant and comfortable - with herself, with the nature of her talents, and with the conventions of pop songwriting. This may still be true. Of all the many things she has been very good or great at, the conventional songwriting of Blue may still be (is imho) her shining moment, in that she planted her flag at the top of a mountain that so many others were trying to climb, and arguably have not since scaled. That she then went on to try to climb less populous mountains, even if the mountains were more difficult and the climbers more skilled technically, does not make her achievements in those endeavors greater than the original. It does evoke my admiration, however. She has dabbled with jazz and African tribal music, ventured deep inside herself and fled far away. But, always, the unpredictable caliber of her work has been as exciting as it is frustrating. Now for once, she has gambled and lost. The best that can be said for Don Juan's Reckless Daughter is that it is an instructive failure. As Kakki said, she pans it (tho that is not quite same as flicking it off, at least to my east coast ears ;-) Note also the phrase "for once". Since Blue, Mitchell has demonstrated an increasing fondness for formats that don't suit her. I would have agreed back then (but in retrospect, I would have modified the above by adding "as well" at the end). But increasingly, Mitchell's pretensions have shaped her appraisal of her own gifts.......These days, Mitchell appears bent on repudiating her own flair for popular songwriting, and on staking her claim to the kind of artistry that, when it's real, doesn't need to announce itself so stridently. Well, I think time has shown that it is real. However, I confess that back then I was torn between (a) the suspicion of pretentiousness bravely (or foolishly) posited above, and (b) a more forgiving reaction with the same result - that even if Joni was a top artist in that arena as well, she had lost me, since I did not get it. My love for her and her work led me to settle on the latter interpretation, whereby I conceded that she had passed me by. Twenty plus years later, I believe that I settled correctly, having finally come to appreciate that work. There is a lot of pressure on a reviewer when, under time constraints, she has to produce a review of a work by a person of far greater talent, based on insufficient time to absorb, feel and analyze. Don Juan's Reckless Daughter is a double album that should have been a single album. It's sapped of emotion and full of ideas that should have remained whims, melodies that should have been riffs, songs that should have been fragments. That is not so far from what has been discussed with rather more levity right here on the list. At its worst, it is a painful illustration of how different the standards that govern poetry and song lyrics can be, and an indication that Joni Mitchell's talents, stretched here to the breaking point, lend themselves much more naturally to the latter form. Her writing works best when it's compact, yet the record's expansive mood forces her to belabor, in the title song, the precious contrast between a snake (or a train, as well as the author's baser instincts) and an eagle (or an airplane, plus a longing for "clarity") for nearly seven minutes. Yes, I suspect Joni is a great lyricist rather than a great poet. But the reviewer presumes that these two disciplines are mutually exclusive, and that there can be no movement in lyricism toward poetry. Anyway, a darn good 7 minutes, imho. The reviewer may have only had a 3 minute attention span. ;-) Mitchell's music has evolved into a kind of neutral background, rolling on endlessly in either a languid spirit ("Jericho) or a nervous one ("Dreamland"). Somehow, she has chosen to abandon melody at a time when she needs it urgently. I thought the same then. I did not appreciate that the more tightly-knit melodies of her HOSL, Hejira, DJRD era were very melodic nevertheless; if the reviewer did not think so, perhaps she should have tried singing them. Here (referring to 'Tenth World) and elsewhere, there seems to be the notion that blacks and Third World people have more rhythm, more fun and a secret mischievous viewpoint that the author, dressed as a black man in one of the photos on the front jacket, presumes to share. On the numbing, sixteen-minute "Paprika Plains" ,we also learn about Indians, who "cut off their braids/And lost some link with nature." There may be something to this, I suspect. Note the somewhat sarcastic use of the word "learn". "Talk to Me" is the LP's most enduring number: as a terribly embarrassing song about feeling terribly embarrassed, it has a scary appropriateness. I agree with this assessment. This song holds up very well, and will probably continue to do so for a long time. Underrated. But I also love the title song as an autobiographical portrait in verse. But even though there are no real solutions to the album's mysteries or explanations for its lapses, Joni Mitchell's resilience has been demonstrated often enough to make speculation about such things appear superfluous. She's bound to be back when the time is right and her mood is less drowsy, less disengaged than it seems here. Until then, we're left with Don Juan's Reckless Daughter, in all its recklessness. The lyrics of DJRD are, in large part, disengaged, a far cry from Blue and FTR. Yet the reviewer is confident to the point of certainty that "her resilient Joni" will return ("bound to be back"). The reviewer did not like the album then. Like Kakki, I wonder if Ms.Maslin has since changed her mind (like I did). I bet she - hung up on conventional melodies - probably liked Night Ride Home when it came out. Really, the reaction in this review is probably typical of many - including fans - who listened to DJRD. It was wrong, but for many of us it took some time to figure that out. In the meantime, Joni's fan base was both shifting and shrinking, I suspect. A pity. But the best of us (critics and fans) know the truth, and the recognition and tributes did come eventually, albeit belatedly. Hope she realizes that the belated nature of the recognition was for a reason - one that puts her in the highest artistic company, historically. :-) Bob S ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 00:07:44 EDT From: Bobsart48@aol.com Subject: Re: JMDL Digest V2001 #264 Nuriel wrote: "Subject: Both Jaws Now It seems obvious that Madamme Mitchell's motivation for releasing the preposterous "Both Sides Now" is purely dental: the old lady of the canyon needs cash to finance her extensive oral treatments. Otherwise one could not explain how an artist who was once appreciated for innovation and for demanding the utmost from herself would hand us this ragbag of geriatric love-songs. Joni is singing love-songs to no-one. Listening to this album feels like a visit to a children's theme-park (whose theme is LOVE), lacking even a single exciting ride. Is it possible that after all we have gone through with Joni, we wind up with heap of sentimental cliches, lyrically on a par with the crassest pop music on offer in every record shop? It seems that the several last years of rubbing shoulders with the American entertainment bourgoise, and recieving their accolades and honors, have finally gotten to Joni: Both Sides Now is a Christmas gift for the self-indulgent classes, to sing along to as they hanker for the Good Old Days. Nuriel " See Kakki - now that's what I call "flicking it off". Nuriel may be missing the point about these classic songs, but he is so humble about doing so, that I have to admire his review ;-) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 00:29:41 EDT From: Bobsart48@aol.com Subject: Re: JMDL Digest V2001 #264 Nuriel wrote: "Both Jaws Now Listening to this album feels like a visit to a children's theme-park (whose theme is LOVE), lacking even a single exciting ride." PS to my earlier response - will someone send this man a ticket to the "loop-the-loop" - it's an old ride, too, but at least it's exciting ! :-~ PPS - do not send him Billy Holiday's Greatest Hits ;-) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 20:48:59 -0700 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: review of DJRD - long post Hi Bob, I've admitted many times here that when DJRD first came out I thought it was some of the weirdest sh*t I'd ever heard! But I could not dismiss it and was compelled to play it over and over to try to "get" it. I also didn't feel like "why isn't she writing stuff like Blue and FTR anymore?" It was very apparent that the former Joni "era" was long packed away at that point and one either needed to move along with her (as bumbling as that felt at the time) or to just stop at that point and never move past Court and Spark. When Maslin writes as her very first line of the review: > In retrospect, Blue turns out to been the album that displayed Joni Mitchell > at her most buoyant and comfortable - with herself, with the nature of her > talents, and with the conventions of pop songwriting. it feels to me like she has flicked off most of what followed after Blue. She poses her conclusion in the very first line. This also sounds very patronizing and dismissive to my ears: > She has dabbled with jazz and African tribal music, ventured deep inside > herself and fled far away. But, always, the unpredictable caliber of her work > has been as exciting as it is frustrating. Now for once, she has gambled and > lost. The best that can be said for Don Juan's Reckless Daughter is that it > is an instructive failure. > As Kakki said, she pans it (tho that is not quite same as flicking it off, at > least to my east coast ears ;-) Note also the phrase "for once". I have experienced a difference in left and east coast ears when it comes to perception of certain criticisms but that's a long other subject ;-) This one cracked me up - talk about the pot calling the kettle.......: > But increasingly, Mitchell's pretensions have shaped her appraisal of her own > gifts.......These days, Mitchell appears bent on repudiating her own flair > for popular songwriting, and on staking her claim to the kind of artistry > that, when it's real, doesn't need to announce itself so stridently. > There is a lot of pressure on a reviewer when, under time constraints, she has to produce a review of a work > by a person of far greater talent, based on insufficient time to absorb, feel > and analyze. Agreed. Guess I would have respected Maslin's opinion more if she had just admitted that it was odd and baffling and tried to muddle it out from there. But I thought that you left out some of the more withering comments like: >The painful banality of Mitchell's lyrics - there is nothing said here that she hasn't said better before, except those things she >should have kept to herself - is almost the least of her problems. Behind a treacly tide like "The Silky Veils of Ardor" lurks an >even treaclier notion: that the romantic visions of love put forth by certain folk songs are one thing, that reality is another, and >that the singer apparently yearns for both. "It's just in my dreams we fly," the song concludes, with a reference to "The Water >Is Wide." Or, as a dialogue balloon on one of the inner sleeves puts it, "In my dweems we fwy." The album offers what is, >one can only hope, the ultimate in cute cover art. >It also offers the ultimate in potshots: "Otis and Marlena," a facile, snidely sung song about tourists who come to Miami "for >fun and sun/While Muslims stick up Washington." This leads into "The Tenth World," a mostly instrumental percussion track >featuring Jaco Pastorius (who plays on a majority of the record with distinction, but without much helpful influence), Airto >and Chaka Khan (who hums). She even flicks off Jaco, Airto and Chaka, lol! > Really, the reaction in this review is probably typical of many - including > fans - who listened to DJRD. It was wrong, but for many of us it took some > time to figure that out. I totally agree. And for those who are about to lecture me how critics are entitled to their opinion, etc., etc., yes I also agree. I just find it funny to go back and read this stuff and then think of how some things are sometimes reappraised dramatically with the passage of time. Kakki Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 00:54:52 EDT From: BachelorNumero2@aol.com Subject: Sonic Dating hey folks........ Anyone can say what they want about Joni's "weird" or experimental works of the seventies.....BUT one thing critics never applaud is the strength of her vision..........Her output (at least up until the "Wild Things"/"Dog Eat Dog" period) is all Joni.........there are no disco sounds to be found on her late seventies albums............Had she followed the crowd, DJRD would have heavy synths and funk bass and "Dreamland" would be "Discoland" instead. I can listen to the majority of "Hejira", "DJRD", and "Mingus" and not be able to tell that those were 70's albums........This is largely due to the fact that she was working with Jazz musicians, who use real instruments and don't rely on dazzling/state-of-the art production. Her 70's output (for the most part) can truly be considered "timeless"...........something that many of her seventies counterparts cannot say. Unfortunately the same cannot be said about her 80's output, and that factor alone can turn away some listeners (I'm included)......It's hard to not focus on those awful synths on "Dog" and "Chalk Mark" or that cheezy metal guitar on "Wild Things".............. When I listened to the "Hits" cd for the first time, I realized something had gone wrong when "Chinese Cafe" came on.........I was cringing at the production (not the song mind you, it's a personal fav) and how it sounded so dated and so unlike the "Joni" that was leading up to it. So it is evident even to new Joni listeners that her "taste in production" had shifted gears (in the wrong direction) at the time of "Wild Things"...........Now, can we attribute that to her involvement with Larry Klein?? I don't believe so. So, Joni decided to experiment with some of the "hot new sounds" of the era and it didn't work for her........we should give her credit for all the albums that she didn't fall victim to the temptation. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 22:03:03 -0700 From: "Robert Holliston" Subject: re: Nuriel's review of BSN Well, folks, here are some more thoughts: I agree with the wonderful Sue Cameron: hearing the CD and experiencing the show live were two different experiences. I even wondered if it would have been better for Joni to have toured first and then recorded: her live performances seemed so much more spontaneous. That said, though, whenever I listen to BSN, I head right for the title song and ACOY. I virtually never listen to the rest of it any more. And, truth be told, even during the concert, I really appreciated her own songs the most, and also Trouble Man, in which I think she really kicks ass! So, Nuriel, you won't get flamed by me, except for suggesting that Joni took on this project for any other reason than love for the music. AND for suggesting that JMDLers are indulging in nostalgia when listening to these songs: trust me, even the oldest of us is too young to have been aware of this music when it was current ;-) Otherwise, her teeth look pretty good to me, and I don't think she's suffering much financially ;-). Plus, I doubt she made much, if anything, on this project But I have to say, I continue on the whole to be underwhelmed by this CD, despite loving her revisitation of "Both Sides Now." My $0.02 Roberto _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. ------------------------------ End of onlyJMDL Digest V2001 #191 ********************************* ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she?