From: les@jmdl.com (onlyJMDL Digest) To: onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Subject: onlyJMDL Digest V2001 #161 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/onlyjoni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com Unsubscribe: mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe onlyJMDL Digest Friday, May 25 2001 Volume 2001 : Number 161 The 'Official' Joni Mitchell Homepage, created by Wally Breese, can be found at http://www.jonimitchell.com. It contains the latest news, a detailed bio, Original Interviews, essays, lyrics and much much more. The JMDL website can be found at http://www.jmdl.com and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. Information on the 4th "Annual" New England JoniFest: http://www.jmdl.com/jfne2001.cfm The Joni Chat Room: http://www.jmdl.com/chat.cfm ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- that damn joni [Kate ] Re: that damn joni ["Kakki" ] anyone interested - free give away ["Greer, Ron" ] Re: that damn joni (aka Joni and Feminism) [MGVal@aol.com] Re: that damn joni (aka Joni and Feminism) [catman ] chelsea morning/same situation [Chorando6@aol.com] Re: chelsea morning/same situation [IVPAUL42@aol.com] Re: chelsea morning/same situation [cvickery@danielrealty.com] Re: chelsea morning/same situation [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: chelsea morning/same situation [IVPAUL42@aol.com] death row [catman ] Subject: Re: Clouds & "I Think I Understand" ["Kate Bennett" ] Re: that damn joni (aka Joni and Feminism) ["Kakki" ] RE: Make me smile! ["Wally Kairuz" ] Re: that damn joni (aka Joni and Feminism) (md) [MDESTE1@aol.com] Re: that damn joni [Catherine McKay ] Re: that damn joni (aka Joni and Feminism) [Catherine McKay ] Re: that damn joni (aka Joni and Feminism) [Randy Remote ] Re: S&L DVD [Catherine McKay ] Re: chelsea morning/same situation [Catherine McKay ] Re: chelsea morning/same situation [Catherine McKay ] Re: S&L DVD [Vince Lavieri ] Re: S&L DVD, the %.1 mystery solved [Mark Domyancich ] feminsim ["Kate Bennett" ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 01:25:15 -0500 From: Kate Subject: that damn joni Joni: "I am absolutely not a feminist. I prefer the company of men to women, always have. And I'm constantly lumped in with women with whom I don't belong." Sigh. Damn her hide anyway. Obviously she doesn't know what the dictionary definition of a "feminist" is. And for a woman of her intelligence, I am surprised, I admit it! And frankly, being a feminist, or not, has dick-all to do with whether you prefer the company of men over the company of women. Now if Joni were to say she believed women were inferior to men, or that she did not believe they deserved social and economic equality, okay, I'd agree with her when she says she isn't a feminist. But that girl's a feminist through and through, deny it all she will. She's put more than one chauvinistic humanoid in his place, I'll wager, and we all know Joni doesn't believe that she's inferior to anyone in any way because she's female and he's male. Nope. Feminist. I think what she's getting at is that she does not personally have any desire to wage war on men. It's unfortunate that feminism has this idea attached to it. Maybe it was necessary at one time -- the militant aspect, the anger -- but it is certainly not what equality is all about, is it? Kate du Nord ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 00:33:08 -0700 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: that damn joni Kate, This has often raised some ire around here. All I can say is I understand where she is coming from. It's nothing really to do with "feminists" - I think that she doesn't like any kind of labels and the borderlines and polarizing that seem to inevitably come with them. I cringe at categorizations, too, because it seems that sometimes even the most innocuous can provoke pigeonholing and stereotyping. Kakki > Joni: > "I am absolutely not a feminist. I prefer the company of men to women, > always have. And I'm constantly lumped in with women with whom I don't > belong." > > Sigh. Damn her hide anyway. > Obviously she doesn't know what the dictionary definition of a > "feminist" is. And for a woman of her intelligence, I am surprised, I > admit it! And frankly, being a feminist, or not, has dick-all to do with > whether you prefer the company of men over the company of women. > > Now if Joni were to say she believed women were inferior to men, or that > she did not believe they deserved social and economic equality, okay, > I'd agree with her when she says she isn't a feminist. But that girl's a > feminist through and through, deny it all she will. She's put more than > one chauvinistic humanoid in his place, I'll wager, and we all know Joni > doesn't believe that she's inferior to anyone in any way because she's > female and he's male. Nope. Feminist. > > I think what she's getting at is that she does not personally have any > desire to wage war on men. It's unfortunate that feminism has this idea > attached to it. Maybe it was necessary at one time -- the militant > aspect, the anger -- but it is certainly not what equality is all about, > is it? > > Kate du Nord ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 09:46:27 +0200 From: "Greer, Ron" Subject: anyone interested - free give away hi busy going through my stuff last night preparing to move, & i came across an oldish (late 1995) "guitar techniques" magazine, with a full transcription of big yellow taxi (musical notation & tabs) as well as a audio cd with the tuning & rhythm for the various parts of the song. (not joni playing!!) the cd also has a picture of joni on the cover, but it is pretty battered. if anyone is interested in getting it for free - drop me a line off list with your address. otherwise if there is more than one person interested, i can scan the transcription, & convert the audio part to mp3 & e-mail it. ron ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 01:30:31 -0700 From: "Robert Holliston" Subject: Re: that damn joni >Joni: >"I am absolutely not a feminist. I prefer the company of men to women, >always have. And I'm constantly lumped in with women with whom I don't >belong." > There's a book, I don't remember who wrote it, which is a kind of journal of the Rolling Thunder Revue. The author, who was following the tour and who comes off as a bit of a dweeb, recalls telling Joni that the Rolling Thunder tour was perfect because his three favorite female songwriters were represented: Joni, Joan Baez, and Ronee Blakely. She reacted angrily and I don't blame her. Joni and other female singer-songwriters are always being compared only with other women, as if they can't hold their own against the boys. [Personal note: when I was in London in 1977, I remember seeing billboards advertising Joan Armatrading as "the best Black, female songwriter" - talk about marginalization!!] So, Joni has resented being compared only to women songwriters - she has said that her real peers are Dylan and Cohen (she's sometimes included Laura Nyro). Even Joni's champions have had to be men: Prince has spoken very highly of THOSL and Boy George caused sales of C&S to rise. David Crosby was the person who launched her recording career (Joni has publicly dissed both Baez and Judy Collins as being less than helpful to her in the early years). Elvis Costello gave her the highest possible compliments in Vanity Fair. True, Chrissie Hynde has been a highly vocal admirer, as has Annie Lennox. But Joni has resisted any and all flattery by younger female singer/songwriters who have claimed her as an influence, mostly because she doesn't feel their work is significant enough to warrant comparison. So, I don't think her assertion that she's "absolutely not a feminist" has anything to do with her preference of the company of men to women. I think she just got tired of being left out of the big picture, which in her heyday, as today, was dominated by men. As Elvis Costello said, she has very few peers, male or female. I hope she understands that this is a great compliment from a man of genuine talent. That's my two cents, anyway. Roberto _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 07:10:24 EDT From: MGVal@aol.com Subject: Re: that damn joni (aka Joni and Feminism) In a message dated 05/24/2001 1:40:27 AM Pacific Daylight Time, roberto1011@hotmail.com writes: << So, I don't think her assertion that she's "absolutely not a feminist" has anything to do with her preference of the company of men to women. I think she just got tired of being left out of the big picture, which in her heyday, as today, was dominated by men. >> I find it a bit ironic because Roberto's post describes very excellent reasons why she should be a "feminist." Always left out of the big picture, always being "pretty darn good....for a girl." There was a thread a few years ago on an interview with Joni by ani defranco where ani took Joni to task for this "I'm no feminist!" stance. I always find it interesting how people get thrust into the position of hero or spokesperson for a cause when their passions are gunning for something else. It's interesting to see if they can pick up the cause, remain true to their original work or if they just want to mind their own business and do what they want to do. Kakki pointed out that Joni is wary of being labeled because labels are limiting and inevitable dead ends. "Appearing tonight only! Canada's Leading Feminist Song-writing Painter!!" It's bad enough that there was a time when people looked through her songs as simply a kind of National Enquirer tell all of her past boyfriends, can you imagine the horror of having her work reduced to nothing more than a feminist thesis? But in my opinion, Joni unfortunately falls short and misses the bus here. Accolades and recognition sometimes get the bonus prize of responsibilities. It's not a perfect world and there is no getting away from the glass ceiling, the double standard, the male dominated big picture. If she is as smart as she says and as enlightened about philosophy and life as she claims, her statement, (and it's not just one slip of the tongue, it's been an on going assertion by her), that she is "not a feminist....." are poorly chosen words. And this from someone who understands the power of them! By declaring herself "not a feminist," she's gone and done the pigeon holing to others that she does not want for herself. She's gone and labeled "feminists" as those who prefer the company of women to men. She's consistently reduced the idea of feminist to something as trite as that when it's a whole lot more with more at stake. She's gone and belittled the artistry of other women because they are not her "peers." I don't think that anyone is disputing that, it's the labeling that she is participating in here. Baez and Collins and Simon may not be her peers but that's because they are not the same caliber artist as she is, not because they are women. Of course, you also have the whole side topic of what it means to be a feminist. There are those who see it reduced to "abortion on demand," those who see it as "man hating," others who see it as a constricting militant philosophy that threatens the fabric of our society. And I'm sure that feminism is all that, depending on the individual who claims to be one. Imagine the difference if Joni had said: "I'm not a feminist! That's too constricting for me! Better to call me a "humanist" because I think that we all are who we are, labels and sex be damned, just let me have a chance based on my ability!" MG ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 13:02:01 +0100 From: catman Subject: Re: that damn joni (aka Joni and Feminism) > Better to call me a "humanist" because I think that we > all are who we are, labels and sex be damned, just let me have a chance based > on my ability!" Mg wrote above and Mags wrote: "It didnt take her long to realize that it was a lot safer and more comfortable and less confrontational to deny her feminist politics outwardly." Rightly or wrongly, Joni gives me the impression she only cares about herself and her suffering when she speaks, tho in her songs, Cherokee Louise and Ethiopis for example, tell a different story. To call oneself a humanist may seem appropriate but certainly here in the UK this equals being an athiest. In the fact the Humanist Society is vociferous in it's anti God stance. Being a 'feminist' is not solely a female thing. Many of us men are feminists too. Equality is what it is about. People, men and women, being pigeon holed for their sex is not about equality but about fear and distrust. This does not just happen to women. it also happens to men. men are ostracised and marginalised too for not being what society demands a man should be. Women are a part of this ostracism also.(I know-my experience in being talented in an area women consider theirs has brought much ostracism from women). All of us, men and women, are constantly engaged(or should be) in the battle to be oneself. That is life's major battle, to be who you are despite all the opposition. Far too many of us think we know what is best for others, think we know what a man or a woman should be. Such thoughts are fear based. The fact that many back up their fears up with 'religion' doesn't give it any legitimacy, it just makes their fear all the more obvious to those who will open their eyes. I found the withdrawal of Mags friend to be very sad, shrinking back and not being oneslef, giving in to the threats, the intimidation, going along with the pack. This is not good and ultimately will bring deep unhappiness to her friend. A life lived in lies is a waste. Not that I don't understand. I do. I have faced threats and intimidation much of my life for daring to be myself. I understand only too well the longing the yearning to 'belong', to be accepted. When I was younger I tried to do just that. It almost cost me my life because of the way it affected me, not because of others. Self hatred kills. Today, I'd rather die being myself at the hands of another than die thru my own hand because I wasn't myself. Hiding who you are is far too painful a burden to bear. 'I'd rather be hated for who I am than loved for who I am not'. - -- bw colin BRO GC, 950i 940,864, 260, 890,Silver 830 and 270, Passap 6000 Duo80 colin@tantra.fsbusiness.co.uk http://www.geocities.com/tantra_apso/index.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 08:06:44 EDT From: MDESTE1@aol.com Subject: Re: that damn joni (aka Joni and Feminism) (md) I think the meaning of her statement was somewhat different than the commentary here is implying. She follows that statement with another equally important and that is that OTHERS are lumping her in with other women who in essence are probably "card carrying" feminists who represent the meaning of the word itself in the most political of senses. THAT is what Joni is shucking off. She doesnt want to have to appear at free concerts to support a political cause and all the other "responsibilities" that go with carrying the flag.It may be why she has never appeared at a Lilith Faire concert thinking it is too political. The political agenda has usurped the credibility from artists in the past when they adopted the political agenda as theirs.Who remembers that Dick Gregory was ever a real performing commedian. From such songs as Three Great Stimulants I take that Joni realizes that ultimately pure politics doesnt solve much. Thats how I took the quote in its context. marcel ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 08:41:16 -0400 From: Jerry Notaro Subject: Re: S&L DVD Catherine McKay wrote: > --- Vince Lavieri wrote: > > Today amazon alerted me that my dvd on S&L has been > > shipped! > > > > So it is finally out of whatever limbo it was in and > > I will post about > > it when it comes! > > > > (the Rev) Vince > > I ordered through CDNow - and mine also shipped today. > Wonder who'll get theirs first? Probably you because > you're not an alien like me. Well I hope someone gives us a report on the %.1 sound mix. If it is good then it will be worth buying. Jerry ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 09:33:44 EDT From: Chorando6@aol.com Subject: chelsea morning/same situation Reading the posts about misheard lyrics and confused meanings adding a certain something to a song...I for many years believed the line 'With heaven full of astronauts and the lord on death row' to be with heaven full of astronauts and the lord under thrown. Which i thought was joni playing about with the idea of something rather unspectacularly being over thrown by a thing far inferior in quality and what it has to offer us. The battle between technology and spirituality, reaching out, destroying the mysteries, the hopes the prayers the magic and ultimately faith. Having to solve all the riddles and for what?? The thing is i thought it was a wonderful line and held it up as one of her greatest and most deeply moving. I was touched by it in a complete and profound manner. So what say you? Still i sent up my prayer wondering where it had to go with heaven full of astronauts and the lord under thrown I still love my interpretation and when i sing along I sing underthrown...more out of habit i think, but also theres a little bit of me that resonates with that rather than the written lyric. All my love and all you fellow islanders enjoy trhe bank holiday and don't forget your factor 45. Clive ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 09:53:11 EDT From: IVPAUL42@aol.com Subject: Re: chelsea morning/same situation In a message dated 5/24/01 9:51:24 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Chorando6@aol.com writes: << I for many years believed the line 'With heaven full of astronauts and the lord on death row' to be with heaven full of astronauts and the lord under thrown. >> I've always thought of her line "the lord on Death Row" as a reference to Charles Manson. Paul ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 09:20:02 -0500 From: cvickery@danielrealty.com Subject: Re: chelsea morning/same situation Paul opined <> Really?? I can't imagine that Joni would be that "into" Manson. I always just assumed it was a reference to the whole "God is Dead" school of thought.... (As an aside - intersting capitalization.... "lord" but "Death Row." Just an observation, not a critique.) Cindy ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 10:25:24 EDT From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: chelsea morning/same situation <> YUCK! Why Manson? I always figured she wrote that as a response to the "God is Dead" school of thought in the late 60's/early 70's. Manson as Lord? Even *I* would gladly flip the switch! Bob NP: Alison Krauss, "That Kind of Love" ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 10:27:01 EDT From: IVPAUL42@aol.com Subject: Re: chelsea morning/same situation In a message dated 5/24/01 10:22:34 AM Eastern Daylight Time, cvickery@danielrealty.com writes: << Paul opined <> Really?? I can't imagine that Joni would be that "into" Manson. I always just assumed it was a reference to the whole "God is Dead" school of thought.... (As an aside - intersting capitalization.... "lord" but "Death Row." Just an observation, not a critique.) Cindy >> Not that she was "into" Manson at all; instead, I think she is giving us a cynical take on the media reports of the time. By the way, according to AP style, Death Row is capped when you are referring to a particular one. And I lowercase "lord" because I don't think she was referring to the deity. I don't remember how it appears in the lyrics on the album. Paul I ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 16:11:55 +0100 From: catman Subject: death row I took it to mean that belief in a supreme being was dying out, not a reference to Mr Manson. and that Man had now put himself in Heaven and in a postion of worship for such an achievement. As appalling as anyone's behaviour might be, 'pulling the switch' is very much against my spiritual/moral beliefs. I have never understood how Capital Punishment sits so well with Xtians, when you consider the person they purport to follow. - -- bw colin BRO GC, 950i 940,864, 260, 890,Silver 830 and 270, Passap 6000 Duo80 colin@tantra.fsbusiness.co.uk http://www.geocities.com/tantra_apso/index.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 10:45:59 -0700 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: Subject: Re: Clouds & "I Think I Understand" I used to play that song on 12 string though they probably weren't the right chords, I will have to check out the ones on jmdl.... >>Or how about using a 12 string or doubling the guitar several times, like My Secret Place? The bluegrass version might be a little scary!<< ******************************************** Kate Bennett www.katebennett.com sponsored by Polysonics www.polysonics.com Discover the Indies at Taylor Guitars: http://www.taylorguitars.com/artists/awp/indies/bennett.html ******************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 14:31:34 EDT From: FMYFL@aol.com Subject: Annie Sofie von Otter meets Elvis Costello (VLJC) Just picked up this new (strange) CD, and though this opera star has a good voice, I'm not sure I like this disc (yet). Elvis Costello sings very little on the CD, but provides a lot of the instrumentals. I noticed in the liner notes, Annie says "There are some people I'd like to thank and since this is my pop record I know I'm allowed: Joni, Carole, Judy C., Mama Cass Elliot, Barbra et al whose songs and voices I have always loved and who certainly inspired me." You noticed she put Joni's name first? :~) Jimmy NP : David Byrne "Look into the Eyeball" ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 13:12:12 -0700 From: "brian symes" Subject: Re:Coyote and Scarlet. A fantasy In an earlier thread we talked about Sam Shepard "Coyote" as the writer Bob Dylan hired. Also we talked about Ronee B as a model for Shades of Scarlett. Last night Playing Blue again for the Millionth time I wished I was a fly on the wall of the Recording Studio during the recording of California JT, Sneeky Pete and Russ making those Warm,Worn chords. NP Cowboy Junkies, Oregon Hill (Hillside Mansions ringed with rose gardens sloping down to the boys in crack alleys in their lowridin 63 Chevys) Sign up for a free About Email account at http://About.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 13:02:17 -0700 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: that damn joni (aka Joni and Feminism) MG wrote: > By declaring herself "not a feminist," she's gone and done the pigeon holing > to others that she does not want for herself. She's gone and labeled > "feminists" as those who prefer the company of women to men. She's > consistently reduced the idea of feminist to something as trite as that when > it's a whole lot more with more at stake. I don't know MG, it seems she has had this challenge to call herself a feminist thrust in her face for years and maybe she has become exasperated with repeatedly addressing it. I agree her words written on the flat dimension of the page sound more dismissive than what we would expect of her. In many past interviews she has articulated her views on the subject more thoughtfully. > She's gone and belittled the > artistry of other women because they are not her "peers." I don't think that > anyone is disputing that, it's the labeling that she is participating in > here. Baez and Collins and Simon may not be her peers but that's because they > are not the same caliber artist as she is, not because they are women. I have also sometimes cringed when she has appeared to diss other female artists because it just seems mean. Then again, some interviewers have wanted her to lump her in with artists like Madonna. Nothing against Madonna, but can you blame her for wanting to dissassociate herself from Madonna's artistic visions? "Case of You" simply doesn't compare to "Like a Virgin" and there's no point trying to lump them together in one big generic female singer songwriter pigeonhole. > Of course, you also have the whole side topic of what it means to be a > feminist. There are those who see it reduced to "abortion on demand," those > who see it as "man hating," others who see it as a constricting militant > philosophy that threatens the fabric of our society. And I'm sure that > feminism is all that, depending on the individual who claims to be one. There's the problem. Most people don't objectively think of a generic and innocuous dictionary definition when they hear the term "feminist" or any other label. They see it through their own interpretation and perspective. I can just see Joni calling herself a feminist and then having the various factions of feminism attacking her for not being a "true" feminist. > Imagine the difference if Joni had said: "I'm not a feminist! That's too > constricting for me! Better to call me a "humanist" because I think that we > all are who we are, labels and sex be damned, just let me have a chance based > on my ability!" I've always thought of her as a humanist and an individualist. But, as colin pointed out, even calling herself a humanist is fraught with misinterpretation because in England and also in parts of the U.S. it is equated with athiesm. Joni's not an athiest so those who now claim the term "humanist" would probably take her to task for appropriating "their" term. Marcel also made a good point that if she affiliates with a particular label, then the politically active gatekeepers of that label would probably pressure her to be appearing at their events and perhaps taking on certain aspects of their agenda to which she may disagree. What a hassle, really, and I don't think any of us would want to be put in such a position ourselves. I've always maintained that she has done her part in advancing the best and truest aspects of humanism, feminism and liberalism and I don't think she owes anyone more. Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 21:38:34 +0100 From: catman Subject: Re: that damn joni (aka Joni and Feminism) > I've always maintained that she has done her part in advancing > the best and truest aspects of humanism, feminism and liberalism true > and I don't > think she owes anyone more. I can't see how she owes anyone anything. She's just a person getting on with her life like the rest of us. I don't feel any of us owe anything to anyone. > > > Kakki - -- bw colin BRO GC, 950i 940,864, 260, 890,Silver 830 and 270, Passap 6000 Duo80 colin@tantra.fsbusiness.co.uk http://www.geocities.com/tantra_apso/index.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 16:39:45 EDT From: Murphycopy@aol.com Subject: Travis, Susie Hug, and Joni Just in time for the discussion about Joni and feminism, Fran Healy from Travis said yesterday in an online Rolling Stone article, "Joni Mitchell writes brilliantly and is very feminine." He also adds, "I can't say I know women very well because you can't read people's minds, but it appears to me that there are very few female artists who are very successful at expressing themselves in that way. There's Joni, there's Kate Bush. There's a few, but I think guys are better at bullshitting basically." I don't know if I understand what he's saying -- and if I do, I don't agree - -- but the entire article can be found at: http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/rolls/20010523/en/travis_back_hug_on_new_cd_1.htm l Take care, --Bob ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 22:37:08 +0100 From: "Paul Castle" Subject: Make me smile! Life is full of little surprises! 9.15pm. Needed something from the shops so jumped in the car. Turned the radio on - the voice said "Not only is she a brilliant painter whose pictures hang in some of the best art galleries in the world - Not only is she an amazing lyricist who puts all the rest of us in the shade - Not only is she a fantastic guitarist with a gorgeous singing voice - She also happens to be as sexy as a field of barley in a July breeze - - - here's Joni Mitchell singing 'Barangrill'. And the DJ? (would you 'Adam an' Eve' it?) Steve Harley of Cockney Rebel PaulC ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 19:23:18 -0300 From: "Wally Kairuz" Subject: RE: Make me smile! my!!! this is such a beautiful thing to say!!! wallyK - -----Mensaje original----- De: owner-joni@jmdl.com [mailto:owner-joni@jmdl.com]En nombre de Paul Castle Enviado el: Jueves, 24 de Mayo de 2001 06:37 p.m. Para: jmdl Asunto: Make me smile! She also happens to be as sexy as a field of barley in a July breeze - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 19:03:08 EDT From: MDESTE1@aol.com Subject: Re: that damn joni (aka Joni and Feminism) (md) Excellent review of the far reaching aspects of this subject kakki. I dont know whether I qualify to participate in this discussion but Im finding it very interesting. marcel ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 20:54:16 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: that damn joni - --- Kate wrote: > Joni: > "I am absolutely not a feminist. I prefer the > company of men to women, > always have. And I'm constantly lumped in with women > with whom I don't > belong." > > Sigh. Damn her hide anyway. > Obviously she doesn't know what the dictionary > definition of a > "feminist" is. And for a woman of her intelligence, > I am surprised, I > admit it! Another here. It pisses me off too. I wonder if the world Joni lives in is so rarified that she becomes out of touch with reality in some respects? It's not as if a celebrity can probably just hop in the car and go down to the local convenience store to pick up milk and cigarettes, can they? Maybe she still believes that being a "feminist" makes you a man-hater and a bra-burner! Get your free @yahoo.ca address at http://mail.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 21:00:17 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: that damn joni (aka Joni and Feminism) - --- MGVal@aol.com wrote: > > Imagine the difference if Joni had said: "I'm not a > feminist! That's too > constricting for me! Better to call me a "humanist" > because I think that we > all are who we are, labels and sex be damned, just > let me have a chance based > on my ability!" > Hmm. I wonder if this was another of those "context is everything" situations. Like - what did she say before and after she said "I'm not a feminist." We're reading someone's version of what she said and they may easily have left something out. Get your free @yahoo.ca address at http://mail.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 21:03:25 EDT From: IVPAUL42@aol.com Subject: Re: that damn joni In a message dated 5/24/01 9:02:06 PM Eastern Daylight Time, anima_rising@yahoo.ca writes: << Maybe she still believes that being a "feminist" makes you a man-hater and a bra-burner! >> Doesn't it? If not in practice, then certainly in perception, and perception IS reality. Paul I ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 18:07:01 -0700 From: Randy Remote Subject: Re: chelsea morning/same situation "With heaven full of astronauts And the Lord on deathrow" I, too have interpreted this line as a reference to Manson. If I remember right, he, as so many cult leaders, considered himself Christ returned. I think Joni was being sarcastic (and cryptic). What could be more out of whack than people strapping themselves to big roman candles and propelling themselves into the heavens, and Jesus a mass-murderer. Still, she sends up her prayer, wondering who is there to hear.... RR IVPAUL42@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 5/24/01 10:22:34 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > cvickery@danielrealty.com writes: > > << Paul opined < Row" as a reference to > Charles Manson.>> > > Really?? I can't imagine that Joni would be that "into" Manson. > I always just assumed it was a reference to the whole "God is > Dead" school of thought.... > > (As an aside - intersting capitalization.... "lord" but "Death > Row." Just an observation, not a critique.) > > Cindy >> > > Not that she was "into" Manson at all; instead, I think she is giving us a > cynical take on the media reports of the time. By the way, according to AP > style, Death Row is capped when you are referring to a particular one. And I > lowercase "lord" because I don't think she was referring to the deity. I > don't remember how it appears in the lyrics on the album. > > Paul I ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 18:13:19 -0700 From: Randy Remote Subject: Re: that damn joni (aka Joni and Feminism) Maybe "I'm not a feminist" means.... 1. I'm a masculinist 2. I don't want to be equal to men-who would 3. Being a woman in pop music has actually been an advantage RR (a feminist-as we all should be) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 21:33:55 EDT From: IVPAUL42@aol.com Subject: Re: chelsea morning/same situation In a message dated 5/24/01 9:13:07 PM Eastern Daylight Time, guitarzan@saber.net writes: << "With heaven full of astronauts And the Lord on deathrow" I, too have interpreted this line as a reference to Manson. If I remember right, he, as so many cult leaders, considered himself Christ returned. I think Joni was being sarcastic (and cryptic). What could be more out of whack than people strapping themselves to big roman candles and propelling themselves into the heavens, and Jesus a mass-murderer. Still, she sends up her prayer, wondering who is there to hear.... RR >> Exactly what I was trying to say. Thanks for putting it more clearly than I apparently did. Indeed, Manson WAS claiming to be the messiah, or something akin to that. Paul I ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 21:45:19 EDT From: Relayer211@aol.com Subject: Re: chelsea morning/same situation In a message dated 5/24/01 9:40:10 PM Eastern Daylight Time, IVPAUL42@aol.com writes: << << "With heaven full of astronauts And the Lord on deathrow" >> To me, she's saying the only "heaven" is outer space which is where humans explore and conquer. For those people, that's their heaven replacement. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 22:47:34 -0300 From: "Wally Kairuz" Subject: manson sjc but didn't the manson thing happen in 1969? i remember i was a child when sharon tate was murdered. why would charles manson come back in the same situation, a song that's so personal. a person is praying and she finds that heaven is not what it used to be -- even god's days are counted. in any case, i've always been obsessed with charles manson; it's just that i had forgotten. the tate crime had enormous repercussion here when i was a kid. yes, i'm sure it was 1969 because that was also the year that we prayed rosaries at school for god to kill chilean president salvador alende, a leftist. you see, my teachers were the kind of roman catholics that were not unlike manson himself. i was 8. i would hear stories about kids that had been raped or mutilated by the communists because they were praying in their catholic schools. all this while i was PRAYING AT A CATHOLIC SCHOOL. so i felt like i would become a catholic martyr any moment, and my parents would put a plate with my name on it on one of the pews at church. then the manson crimes happened. it was winter here. i remember now. the man on the moon, some war in the middle east [the 7-day war?], the manson crimes, alende in chile. the communists around the corner, ready to stick things into your body if you didn't abjure the pope. the swastika on manson's forehead, i remember that too. and a few years later, i joined the communist party and my little sister, who was 11 at the time, was kidnapped and tortured by the secret police. when my father found her, my sister was a zombie. they must have raped her too, my parents never told me. my sister became a thief, a slut, then she became bulimic, and finally psychotic. both my parents are bipolar, so there we were. my sister left home one april afternoon, some ten years ago. she had about $3 and a sweater. she turned up a year later. she was living with a guy and breeding beagles. and you know what helped my sister? the beagles. she has been breeding dogs for ten years and she has come to terms with many things. i love my sister more than anybody else in the world. i taught her how to talk and to walk and how to read and write before she went to school. when we were really little, one of our favorite games was to make believe that we were in canada, go figure. in the winter of 1969, when the manson crimes and that war and all the rest happened, my sister hit me in the head with one of my mom's stilettos and they had to give me 3 stitches. wallyK ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 21:51:35 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: S&L DVD - --- Jerry Notaro wrote: > > Well I hope someone gives us a report on the %.1 > sound mix. If it is > good then it will be worth buying. > Jerry, I wouldn't recognize a %.1 sound mix if it bit me in the ass! I'll be listening to it/viewing it on my PC (in the hope of some day buying a real DVD player, but there are urgent and pressing matters that prevent this from becoming a reality for quite some time.) Get your free @yahoo.ca address at http://mail.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 21:53:32 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: chelsea morning/same situation - --- IVPAUL42@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 5/24/01 9:51:24 AM Eastern > Daylight Time, > Chorando6@aol.com writes: > > << I for many years believed the line 'With heaven > full of astronauts and the lord on death row' to be > with heaven full of > astronauts and the lord under thrown. >> > > I've always thought of her line "the lord on Death > Row" as a reference to > Charles Manson. Wow, this is interesting. I just took it as the "God is dead" thing that was so much in the news when this song came out. I kind of like Clive's "Lord under thrown" thing too. > Paul Get your free @yahoo.ca address at http://mail.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 21:53:21 EDT From: IVPAUL42@aol.com Subject: Re: chelsea morning/same situation In a message dated 5/24/01 9:50:23 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Relayer211@aol.com writes: << << << "With heaven full of astronauts And the Lord on deathrow" >> To me, she's saying the only "heaven" is outer space which is where humans explore and conquer. For those people, that's their heaven replacement. >> I can only say that I think your interpretation seems to ignore the context of the time and location in which she wrote the song. Paul I ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 21:58:59 EDT From: MGVal@aol.com Subject: Re: chelsea morning/same situation In a message dated 05/24/2001 7:08:17 AM Pacific Daylight Time, IVPAUL42@aol.com writes: << << I for many years believed the line 'With heaven full of astronauts and the lord on death row' to be with heaven full of astronauts and the lord under thrown. >> I've always thought of her line "the lord on Death Row" as a reference to Charles Manson. >> Hmm. Interesting thought. I always took it the "lord" as being "God." In the early 70's or so, I can remember a Time or Newsweek magazine cover that had the face of Jesus with the caption: "God is Dead" or something like that. MG - a record two posts in one day! ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 22:00:54 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: that damn joni - --- IVPAUL42@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 5/24/01 9:02:06 PM Eastern > Daylight Time, > anima_rising@yahoo.ca writes: > > << Maybe she still believes that being a "feminist" > makes you a > man-hater and a bra-burner! >> > > Doesn't it? > If not in practice, then certainly in perception, > and perception IS reality. > You're beginning to sound too much like my boss whose favourite line is, "Perception is everything." Get your free @yahoo.ca address at http://mail.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 22:02:36 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: chelsea morning/same situation - --- IVPAUL42@aol.com wrote: > Indeed, Manson WAS claiming to be the messiah, or > something akin to that. > Why is it always the nutbars who *believe* they're the Messiah? Get your free @yahoo.ca address at http://mail.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 22:01:24 EDT From: IVPAUL42@aol.com Subject: Re: manson sjc In a message dated 5/24/01 9:57:11 PM Eastern Daylight Time, wallykai@fibertel.com.ar writes: << but didn't the manson thing happen in 1969? i remember i was a child when sharon tate was murdered. why would charles manson come back in the same situation, a song that's so personal. >> The TRIAL, Wally, not the murders. Manson's trial and sentencing made bigger news for a longer time than the actual murders. Paul I ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 22:02:32 EDT From: IVPAUL42@aol.com Subject: Re: manson sjc In a message dated 5/24/01 9:57:11 PM Eastern Daylight Time, wallykai@fibertel.com.ar writes: << and a few years later, i joined the communist party >> I guess you can forget about that future career as an actor, director or screenwriter in Hollywood, eh? ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 22:04:16 EDT From: IVPAUL42@aol.com Subject: Re: chelsea morning/same situation In a message dated 5/24/01 10:02:50 PM Eastern Daylight Time, anima_rising@yahoo.ca writes: << --- IVPAUL42@aol.com wrote: > Indeed, Manson WAS claiming to be the messiah, or > something akin to that. > Why is it always the nutbars who *believe* they're the Messiah? >> At least Manson wasn't Jewish. Paul I ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 22:08:42 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: chelsea morning/same situation - --- IVPAUL42@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 5/24/01 9:50:23 PM Eastern > Daylight Time, > Relayer211@aol.com writes: > > << << > << "With heaven full of astronauts > And the Lord on deathrow" >> > > To me, she's saying the only "heaven" is outer > space which is where > humans explore and conquer. For those people, > that's their heaven > replacement. >> > > I can only say that I think your interpretation > seems to ignore the context > of the time and location in which she wrote the > song. > Maybe I misinterpreted what Relayer was trying to say, but it makes sense to me. Who is going to hear your prayer when heaven (as a child would see it, up there in the clouds) has become a place "full of astronauts" (like the "conquered moon")? So heaven isn't there anymore. And "God is dead", the Lord is on death row. There's no heaven, there's no God - so who are you going to pray to, and who is going to hear? (But she prays anyway.) Get your free @yahoo.ca address at http://mail.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 22:15:53 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: manson sjc - --- Wally Kairuz wrote: i'm sure it was 1969 because that was also > the year that we prayed > rosaries at school for god to kill chilean president > salvador alende, a > leftist. you see, my teachers were the kind of roman > catholics that were not > unlike manson himself. i was 8. i would hear stories > about kids that had > been raped or mutilated by the communists because > they were praying in their > catholic schools. all this while i was PRAYING AT A > CATHOLIC SCHOOL. so i > felt like i would become a catholic martyr any > moment, and my parents would > put a plate with my name on it on one of the pews at > church. Wally, I hope you're writing a book - if not, just get off your ass and do it! (I used to dream about becoming a martyr too, but I was in safe and boring Canada, so what did I know - those nutty nuns and the things they put in a kid's head!) > and a few years later, i joined the communist party > and my little sister, > who was 11 at the time, was kidnapped and tortured > by the secret police. > when my father found her, my sister was a zombie. .... > she turned up a year > later. she was living with > a guy and breeding beagles. and you know what helped > my sister? the beagles. > she has been breeding dogs for ten years and she has > come to terms with many > things. i love my sister more than anybody else in > the world Grace in beagles. This is a great story - get on that book! Get your free @yahoo.ca address at http://mail.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 22:19:09 -0400 From: Vince Lavieri Subject: Re: S&L DVD Catherine McKay wrote: > --- Jerry Notaro wrote: > > > Well I hope someone gives us a report on the %.1 > > sound mix. If it is > > good then it will be worth buying. > > > > Jerry, I wouldn't recognize a %.1 sound mix if it bit > me in the ass! I'll be listening to it/viewing it on > my PC (in the hope of some day buying a real DVD > player, but there are urgent and pressing matters that > prevent this from becoming a reality for quite some time.) > > _ If it bit me on the ass I would recognize the bit but not what did it, so I'm in the same place (only metaphysically, our asses are ontologically in very different places) as Catherine. I will tell you if the thing is letterboxed because if not I will smash it into a million pieces in my stamp out things that are not letterboxed campaign. I will be playing it on a DVD since I did give myself the gift of DVD last Christmas (no one else would), I disagree with Catherine that there are more urgent and pressing matters. For those few of you who remember my drastic eat no food hardly diet that my doctor but me last October, eating soy milk and puffed rice or wheat with stevia for sweetener is very, very economical. That is eating that meal seven evenings a week. With the occasional vegetables and the occasional meat for morning and lunch, eating becomes so boring you kind of stop. The money that I am saving on candy, donuts, and actual food items is extraordinary! Thus DVD becomes affordable! And oddly, since I was allergic to all things edible anyway, my health is never been better, and I've dropped weight I've fought to drop for years, and I am in a pre-buff for the summer stage, a stage which I never attained prior to this eat hardly any food diet! (If buff actually is achieved, pictures will be posted.) So I'm looking good in the reflection of the tv screen as I am putting the DVD into the DVD player! Kind of like the guy in American Psycho who is making love to two women but can't take his eyes off his reflection in the mirror the entire time; he never even saw his partners. But then that's not a good analogy, is it? So I am back to the fact that I don't have a clue about what Jerry wants to know. So, precious one of my heart, try asking what you want me to tell you in very simple language, very simple as if I am a child! (Bonus points id anyone identifies what movie that is from.) (the Rev) Vince, pre-buff and pre-S&L DVD and aren't you all jealous even though I am clueless on the audiophile stuff! ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 21:31:16 -0500 From: Mark Domyancich Subject: Re: S&L DVD, the %.1 mystery solved I think Jerry meant to type 5.1, % being the shift key and 5. A common typo. 5.1 channel surround sound is supposed to be very good, but I haven't tried out any receivers that have that feature. Mark Domyancich mark@jmdl.com / Harpua@revealed.net > From: Vince Lavieri > Reply-To: Vince Lavieri > Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 22:19:09 -0400 > To: Catherine McKay > Cc: notaro@bayflash.stpt.usf.edu, joni > Subject: Re: S&L DVD > > Catherine McKay wrote: > >> --- Jerry Notaro wrote: >>>> Well I hope someone gives us a report on the %.1 >>> sound mix. If it is >>> good then it will be worth buying. >>> >> >> Jerry, I wouldn't recognize a %.1 sound mix if it bit >> me in the ass! I'll be listening to it/viewing it on >> my PC (in the hope of some day buying a real DVD >> player, but there are urgent and pressing matters that >> prevent this from becoming a reality for quite some time.) >> >> _ > > If it bit me on the ass I would recognize the bit but not what did it, > so I'm in the same place (only metaphysically, our asses are > ontologically in very different places) as Catherine. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 20:27:34 -0700 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: feminsim someone said << Maybe she still believes that being a "feminist" makes you a man-hater and a bra-burner! >> someone else answered >>>Doesn't it? If not in practice, then certainly in perception, and perception IS reality.<< Hopefully you were joking. Feminism used to have a more militant edge to it which in hindsight I believe was created in part by some (not all) feminists and partially by some (men & women) who were threatened by its concepts. It has been many many decades since then. Nevertheless, I can totally understand Joni's point of view that she doesn't want to be anything with an ist or ism on the end of it. She too full of many complex thoughts & ideas to ever let herself be labeled by someone elses definition. And by the very nature of this discussion & the one that we all had regarding feminism a while ago, there are lots of different interpretations about feminism. It reminds me of the fable of all those blind guys thinking that the part of the elephant they were touching was the whole elephant. Feminism is a deep & complex issue but in the end I think it is about equal opportunity and balancing what has been out of balance for too long. There is a great list out there that I wish I could put my hands on. Maybe someone has it. It goes a little like this: What if the constitution was written "all women are created equal" ommiting men What if God was always referred to as she. Etc. ******************************************** Kate Bennett www.katebennett.com sponsored by Polysonics www.polysonics.com Discover the Indies at Taylor Guitars: http://www.taylorguitars.com/artists/awp/indies/bennett.html ******************************************** ------------------------------ End of onlyJMDL Digest V2001 #161 ********************************* ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she?